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IrishCop
21st April 2007, 16:31
Many Defence Forces around the world, particularly those in the Commonwealth countries were founded on the British Military System and to this day still retain many of the British Traditions, such as Rank structure, Regimental and Corp structure, Ceremonial Drill and method of Saluting.

Retained also was the Messing system such as the Sergeants' Mess and the Officers' Mess.

I have a basic knowledge of Ireland's military history and I am aware of the organisational structure of the Irish Defence Force.

However, I do have some unanswered questions and would be grateful for a response.

Did Ireland adopt any British Military Traditions, for example,

Do you render a salute the British way or say the American way?

Is your ceremonial foot drill the same as the British?

Do you have a Sergeants' Mess and an Officers' Mess and do you hold Dining In Nights?

Do you have an RSM and if not, what is the equivalent?

I notice your Military Police have red caps which is the same as the British Royal Military Police.

Does the other two Branches have their own Service Police and if so, what type of uniform distinguishes them from the other trades.

Do you have the opportunity to do Exchange Duties or Training Courses with any other country and if so, what countries?

Thanks.

CS Gass
21st April 2007, 16:44
in answer to your questions,
1) neither though our saltute most closely resembles the american way
2) again it is similiar to the british except for a different stop and other small difference and of course it is done through irish
3)we surely do, dining in nights? im not sure what your referring to
4) yes we have RSM for regiments and BSM(battalion sgt major) for battalions
5) i belive the PA's are for the df as a whole.
6) sort of, the ARW do as do some NCOs and officers attend foreign career courses, usualy in the UK i believe

Craghopper
21st April 2007, 17:37
foreign career courses are open to all the Df.. but are very hard to get..

Goldie fish
21st April 2007, 17:51
Depends on what arm of the DF too. Air Corps and Naval service have more opportunities for the ordinary Seaman or Airman to go on overseas courses than the average army Private.

DeV
21st April 2007, 19:01
Do you have a Sergeants' Mess and an Officers' Mess and do you hold Dining In Nights?
Permanent barracks normally have a canteen/mess (for privates), a NCOs Mess and an Officers Mess.

Do you have an RSM and if not, what is the equivalent?
Rank structure after Sergeant is as follows:
Company Quartermaster Sergeant
Company Sergeant
Battalion (or Regimental in the case of AC & Artillery Corps)Quartermaster Sergeant
Battalion (or Regimential in the case of AC & Artillery Corps) Sergeant Major


Does the other two Branches have their own Service Police and if so, what type of uniform distinguishes them from the other trades.
Untill recently no, in the last year of so the NS & AC have got they own MPs, AC MPs wear red beret, NS MPs have a red band on their cap.

Do you have the opportunity to do Exchange Duties or Training Courses with any other country and if so, what countries?Exchange duties are very rare. Their are often courses run specifically for foreign forces (normally by UN school). Then you have PfP courses. On the Command & Staff courses I think there is places reserved for US, German and French officers, and sometimes Irish officers go on their courses.

hedgehog
21st April 2007, 19:11
do you hold Dining In Nights?


It would be very rare for us to hold a formal dinner

except for the likes of Christmas dinner etc ( I am of course speaking only for my Unit

others may have different versions)

but the Dining in traditions that our next door neighbours have is sadly a tradition that

didnt carry over

Goldie fish
21st April 2007, 19:56
Do you have a Sergeants' Mess and an Officers' Mess and do you hold Dining In Nights?
Permanent barracks normally have a canteen/mess (for privates), a NCOs Mess and an Officers Mess.

The Naval service has a slight Variation to this, with Officers having the Wardroom, PO and up having the Senior Rates mess, and below having the Ratings mess.


Do you have an RSM and if not, what is the equivalent?
Rank structure after Sergeant is as follows:
Company Quartermaster Sergeant
Company Sergeant
Battalion (or Regimental in the case of AC & Artillery Corps)Quartermaster Sergeant
Battalion (or Regimential in the case of AC & Artillery Corps) Sergeant Major


Cavalry have a Squadron Quartermaster Sgt and Sqadron Sgt in place of the CQMS and CS.

The real Jack
21st April 2007, 20:05
Cavalry have a Squadron Quartermaster Sgt and Sqadron Sgt in place of the CQMS and CS.

So in the cav a CS is a SS............

Goldie fish
21st April 2007, 20:09
No.

An ss is a recruit, or junior private(Saighdúr Singhil). In the Cav the CS is a S/Sgt.

hedgehog
21st April 2007, 20:14
So in the cav a CS is a SS............


SS is the term for a Private

The real Jack
21st April 2007, 20:16
aww shucks

hedgehog
21st April 2007, 20:27
Saighduir Single

Goldie fish
21st April 2007, 20:39
Saighduir Single


http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showpost.php?p=160038&postcount=9

hedgehog
21st April 2007, 21:25
No.

An ss is a recruit, or junior private(Saighdúr Singhil). In the Cav the CS is a S/Sgt.


thanks for that GF

but without being pedantic and as far asi know

Siaghduir Singhil is a private

there is no rank of juniior private either, its simply 2 star pte or 3 star private

The real Jack
22nd April 2007, 14:51
Do you have the opportunity to do Exchange Duties or Training Courses with any other country and if so, what countries?


Came across this:


Attending United States Military Academies

In order to for Irish personnel to attend US Military academies, personnel must meet all pre-requisites and be nominated by the coinciding Irish service. (i.e. the Irish Navy can nominate personnel to attend the US Naval Academy.) Please contact the Irish service of your choice to request a nomination. For more information about pre-requisites or a particular Military Academy, click here to go to the USDAO Link page.


from http://dublin.usembassy.gov/ireland/us_military.html

hptmurphy
22nd April 2007, 15:38
Privates have a canteen, but not a mess. I believe the difference being that that the NCO's Mess and Officer's Mess usually have accomodation as part of them.

As in wet and dry canteens

Barry
22nd April 2007, 17:50
Do you render a salute the British way or say the American way?

Is your ceremonial foot drill the same as the British?
We salute the Irish way :tongue: The movement is basically the British movement, but the hand position is similar to the American.

Foot drill is very similar to British. Irish arms drill has it's own little quirks, partially due to the rifle we use, and partially due to us doing it differently (look at a video of the British doing a present arms and you'll know what I mean)

hedgehog
22nd April 2007, 17:59
our drill is quiet good

remember we were one of the few foreign nations asked along to JFK's funeral

because Mrs FK was enthralled by the drill

Barry
22nd April 2007, 18:09
our drill is quiet good

remember we were one of the few foreign nations asked along to JFK's funeral

because Mrs FK was enthralled by the drill
The reverse arms at the grave was done by the Cadet class at the time. There was an account of it by one of the lads who was there in An Cosantoir a year or two back.

Goldie fish
22nd April 2007, 19:25
Our salute is the same as the RN salute...

turbocalves
22nd April 2007, 22:23
our drill is quiet good

remember we were one of the few foreign nations asked along to JFK's funeral

because Mrs FK was enthralled by the drill

nothing to do with him being oirish then???

CTU
22nd April 2007, 22:44
The reverse arms at the grave was done by the Cadet class at the time. There was an account of it by one of the lads who was there in An Cosantoir a year or two back.

Here is an account of the Honour Guard from Signal

http://www.raco.ie/signalpdfs/2_2_honourguard.pdf

Parts
22nd April 2007, 23:10
Some pics of the cadets at the funeral...

CS Gass
23rd April 2007, 02:31
to be honest ive always found our drill lacking, i was at a passing out in gormanstown and half the eejits started on the right. whenever we do anything theres always some fool out of step, very few lift their thighs parrallel. I mean my civilian friends mock the DF for the way it marches or fails to

dahamster
23rd April 2007, 11:02
to be honest ive always found our drill lacking, i was at a passing out in gormanstown and half the eejits started on the right.

I find that very surprising to be honest I haven't marched for a very long time but i always start walking by the left so that stuff becomes inherent to you


whenever we do anything theres always some fool out of step, very few lift their thighs parrallel. I mean my civilian friends mock the DF for the way it marches or fails to

who is we? A few weeks ago you were trying to find out how long pdf recruit training is. To be honest it is a bit much for some walter to be commenting on the drill of people who do this stuff for a living.

hptmurphy
23rd April 2007, 12:22
If you want to waste a few quid and watch the most horrible display of foot drill seen to man..get a copy of the national Museums '100 Paces'...talking about nightmarish...oh sweet jesus

hedgehog
23rd April 2007, 12:28
very few lift their thighs parrallel

can you actually point out in the drill manual where it says thighs parell to the ground

whats your background CS Gas

Parts
24th April 2007, 19:38
can you actually point out in the drill manual where it says thighs parell to the ground
Mark Time

hedgehog
24th April 2007, 20:22
post it up and let me see

Parts
25th April 2007, 22:02
Quite.

CS Gass
25th April 2007, 22:54
The point of the matter is regardless of my background our marching is lacking, if the public look at it and deem it so well then to me it is. whether in the manual it states thighs parrallel to the ground or not proves the problem that there is no set rules, on the square you get a mix of those who trail their foot along the ground when coming to attention to those who are over zealous with lifting their leg, and the arms all over the place or my personal pet hate is the steyr just hanging around their neck with the magazine almost sticking straight out, come on lads call a spade a spade, its not terrible im just saying it could be tightened up and pollished if even just for events

Goldie fish
25th April 2007, 23:48
The manuals are quite clear on the correct drill movements. No excuses.

cav
21st June 2007, 00:07
killer uniforms cadets wore back then, but how was the rifle rotated ? must have been a very tricky movement ending with the mussel on your boot .

Goldie fish
21st June 2007, 00:25
The rotation wasnt that bad, the problem was swapping the hands.

I thought you were old enough to know about such things.

expat01
17th August 2007, 12:17
While it might be nice to be able to rival the Edinburgh Tattoo, it's not necessarily the most essential thing in an army. Ever seen the Israelis try to do arms drill?

Hello Alaska
17th August 2007, 13:36
I mean my civilian friends mock the DF for the way it marches or fails to

Let them try do it then........ See how far they get.

hptmurphy
17th August 2007, 14:15
killer uniforms cadets wore back then, but how was the rifle rotated ? must have been a very tricky movement ending with the mussel on your boot

Not really just went from the salute through the inversion and placed it on the toecap of the boot....made shite of the bull!

The swapping hands bit was interesting...and timing the placement of hands on the but plate had some interesting timings.

Steyr Funeral Drill is handy.....Although I never want to see it done live again.

GoneToTheCanner
17th August 2007, 17:18
Hi all
Thighs parallel to the ground was the done thing in my time (84 to 95)so it must have had an official origin somewhere. Can anyone explain why Officers don't have to stamp their feet or lift their legs as far? Even when wearing boots....We had a few heads in the Depot in the Don who used to throw in a little skip on the left foot when coming to the halt.Anyone ever see that?
regards
GttC

Hello Alaska
17th August 2007, 17:24
Hi all
Thighs parallel to the ground was the done thing in my time (84 to 95)so it must have had an official origin somewhere. Can anyone explain why Officers don't have to stamp their feet or lift their legs as far? Even when wearing boots....We had a few heads in the Depot in the Don who used to throw in a little skip on the left foot when coming to the halt.Anyone ever see that?
regards
GttC

I see it all the time....... I think it's just the lads being lazy more than anything else.

Barry
17th August 2007, 17:27
Hi all
Thighs parallel to the ground was the done thing in my time (84 to 95)so it must have had an official origin somewhere. Can anyone explain why Officers don't have to stamp their feet or lift their legs as far? Even when wearing boots....We had a few heads in the Depot in the Don who used to throw in a little skip on the left foot when coming to the halt.Anyone ever see that?
regards
GttC
Thighs parallel to the ground on drill movements isn't actually specified in the manual - it's something we got off the Brits, as is the skip on the left on the halt (which looks and sounds a lot better, in my opinion, as it causes both the left and right feet to be driven hard into the ground, creating 2 seperate sounds)

As for officers - while it is more likely a result of laziness than of tradition, it could also be associated with sword drill, which is distinct from rifle drill in that movements are supposed to be flowing and graceful, rather than the sharp and distinct movements of the men with their rifles.

hptmurphy
18th August 2007, 17:46
I use the little skip all the time....Thighs parralell to the deck is the only way anything else looks shite

Its just laziness and lack of pride in ones drill.

I always have taken pride in my drill and deportment.My opinion being that if its part of the job it should be done properly.On ceremonials GOHs etc its done properly..everybody does it as aprt of recruit training...after that its just lack of pride and laziness.

strummer
18th August 2007, 21:09
As for officers - while it is more likely a result of laziness than of tradition, it could also be associated with sword drill, which is distinct from rifle drill in that movements are supposed to be flowing and graceful, rather than the sharp and distinct movements of the men with their rifles.



It's always about the swords, trinkets, sam browns, wings...always !!!