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  • Air Defence Radar for new ships?

    A detail of the RFP was pointed out to me earlier by a non military person(who was interested in the details from an engineering perspective) I had missed it myself.


    OPV:
    Radars Navigation, Air Defence option
    EPV:
    Radars Navigation and Air Defence
    Is this a first for an Irish NS vessel? Was the Radar on Eithne an Air Search only or did it have an Air Defence capability?


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  • #2
    DAO 5 could track...but whats the point if you can't engage outside certain ranges.

    Aquire on TDS. link it to OPs and let them decide!
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

    Comment


    • #3
      It is generally the case with radar equipped AD weapons that they can detect them before they are able to engage them -> the range of the radar is longer than the range of the weapon.

      Comment


      • #4
        But there is a huge difference between Air Search and Air defence, isn't there? You can have air search without being linked to a weapon. Murph may correct me, but if I remember correctly, the Purpose of Eithnes DAO 5 was to vector the heli to the ship in poor visibility.


        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

        Comment


        • #5
          perhaps what is meant by air defence capability is - as opposed to an integral system like PAAMS - a 'bolt on' system where the ships radar suite provides warning and target indication while a system like RBS-70 MANPADS operated either by embarked troops or the ships company does the actual defending.

          not much use against supersonic sea-skimmers, but probably pretty effective against Helicopters, UAV's and even fast jets.

          easy to see from these piccies how easy such a system would be to bring along to the party, in its most basic form fire control could just be put over the ships loudspeaker...

          http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rbs70-pics.htm

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          • #6
            I think the only real air threat faced these days by the NS operating overseas is sea skimming shoulder launched missiles, as the Israelis found out recently to their peril. You really need your Radar linked directly to your main armament for that. The Oto Melara 76mm is capable of defending against such a threat, apparently.


            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
              I think the only real air threat faced these days by the NS operating overseas is sea skimming shoulder launched missiles, as the Israelis found out recently to their peril. You really need your Radar linked directly to your main armament for that. The Oto Melara 76mm is capable of defending against such a threat, apparently.

              I think it was a bit more than a shoulder-launched missile....

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                I think the only real air threat faced these days by the NS operating overseas is sea skimming shoulder launched missiles, as the Israelis found out recently to their peril. You really need your Radar linked directly to your main armament for that. The Oto Melara 76mm is capable of defending against such a threat, apparently.
                i'd be tempted to ask if any system could defend against that type of threat, given the very short range at which it would be launched

                this is from the 'HMS Daring/SAMPSON/ASTOR' thread on Pprune, it gives information on the reaction times of various systems against different threats - which depends entirely upon the speed they get from detection to impact.

                http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...=288129&page=4

                the people who know think a USN Arleigh Burke AEGIS AWD would detect a mach 3 sea-skimmer at 13 miles and get one shot off before the missile got suffiently close that a detonation would cause massive damage to the ship regardless of it being intercepted, while a Type 45 AWD should detect the same threat at 16 miles and have time for a 'shoot-look-shoot' cycle before the missile gets too close for a safe interception.

                if the kind of weapon you're talking about - a gloried ATGW - was fired from say 2 - 3km, then even a rapid fire gun slaved to the Radar (with the inherent ability of a gun system to only engage a single target at one time) would be bloody hard pushed to get the incoming missile before it hit.

                Comment


                • #9
                  This is the typical last line of defence against surface-skimming missiles:



                  Phalanx CIWS, a stand-alone system, including search and tracking radars.

                  The Israeli ship hit by a Hezbollah missile had missile defence systems, but they were switched off, because no attack was aniticipated.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                    But there is a huge difference between Air Search and Air defence, isn't there? You can have air search without being linked to a weapon. Murph may correct me, but if I remember correctly, the Purpose of Eithnes DAO 5 was to vector the heli to the ship in poor visibility.
                    The purpose of the DAO5 is Air Search, the India Band radar (Decca, then Kelvin Hughes) is what a HCO (Helicopter Control Officer) uses to vector the heli in.

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                    • #11
                      Save me the bother Dogwatch..was just about to post same..
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dogwatch View Post
                        The purpose of the DAO5 is Air Search, the India Band radar (Decca, then Kelvin Hughes) is what a HCO (Helicopter Control Officer) uses to vector the heli in.
                        so if that system could - for example - detect an incoming aircraft at 5 - 10 miles, provide bearing, course, speed and altitude information, then it provides the basis, however rudimentary, for crew served Surface to Air systems.

                        not exactly Sampson/Astor 30, but such systems have been used to effect before - are 'cheap' (well, compared to PAAMS there are cheap), and the RBS-70 can be moved around the DF depending on where its needed, rathat than being a integral part of a ship that for any reason isn't involved.

                        the threat that Goldie Fish describes, a very serious threat to a ship at anchor full of fuel, ammunition and personnel - and a likely one given the type of Littoral operations the MRV would undertake - could probably only be counter-acted by a dedicated CIWS/Radar and and Fire Control system found on very expensive Warships.

                        i have a feeling that such a system would bump up the price of the MRV somewhat uncomfortably....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          so if that system could - for example - detect an incoming aircraft at 5 - 10 miles, provide bearing, course, speed and altitude information, then it provides the basis, however rudimentary, for crew served Surface to Air systems.
                          Its there already, DAO 5 is linked to the 57mm Bofors on Eithne.

                          Signal LIOD..fire control system akin to Flycatcher Navy style.

                          One of the cost over runs that Eithne suffered from.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            OPVH Air Search Radar

                            The Scanter 4100 Air Search Radar has been fitted on HMS Clyde.





                            The SCANTER 4100 Surveillance Radar is part of the command and control system that BAE Systems Integrated System Technologies delivers to a new inspection and surveillance vessel with helicopter, a so-called OPV(H), Ocean Patrol Vessel (Helicopter). The vessel will be built on the British shipyard, VT Shipbuilding. The vessel will be deployed in 2007 in the South Atlantic.

                            Terma’s SCANTER 4100 was selected as it applies the latest technology providing a balance between performance and price. The SCANTER 4100 has gain international recognition owing to its ability to detect and track small targets in all weather condition. In addition with its attractive design, it utilizes a joint Travelling Wave Tube, TWT, transmitter and individual Frequency Diversity Receivers which have an advanced signal processing with a new concept for MTI processing (Moving Target Indication processing).

                            The SCANTER features
                            SCANTER 4100 is the ship version of the SCANTER 4000 system which Terma is currently completing to the Danish Navy for coastal surveillance.

                            The SCANTER 4000/4100 is a new digitalized radar concept combined with surveillance on sea level as well as airspace in a distance of up to 110 Nm. Like the existing SCANTER 2001, the radar is suitable for all kinds of surveillance from ships and along the coastline for detecting small targets in all weathers. The radar picture reproduced in a high quality where clutter is eliminated.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi there
                              You would want an instant reaction time from the humans on the ship, not to mind the radar/gun set-up. You would want perfection from both, to detect, clearly identify from shore clutter and predict the flight path of a missile and then put accurate fire into it's path.Knocking out a missile arriving from a known launch site, in blue-sky test conditions, is piss-easy by comparison.
                              regards
                              GttC

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