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luchi
12th October 2007, 00:00
In the cases of the guys who went they are actually ahead of what any proposed integration could have done with them in Sothern brigade

No wonder they were RTU'd or RTU'd them selves, your supposed to be up skilling!!:biggrin:


fully qualified in Gunnery, driving ,Instruction of both and had done the PDF CAV CTR course

They completed the TVMS MT instructors course?

hptmurphy
12th October 2007, 13:21
They completed the TVMS MT instructors course?


Given the lack of the specifi vehicle type nope.

Just the AML types that are available in the south and to the reserve/


No wonder they were RTU'd or RTU'd them selves, your supposed to be up skilling!!

Probably just got bored lol
Dunno what the actual circumsatnces are but.. they are finished,, thats all I can be sure of.

trellheim
12th October 2007, 17:15
well now here´s a a question. How many RDF driving instructors are there and why aren´t they out teaching the biggest RDF group who need to know how to drive i.e Inf

Most of my civvy B/C/D licence holders are NCOs and I dont want or need them driving.

If an NCO is driving it means somethings wrong.

So - I need Mod 1 courses. WHERE ARE THEY ? No instructors on Inf Bn Estab.

DeV
12th October 2007, 17:34
well now here´s a a question. How many RDF driving instructors are there and why aren´t they out teaching the biggest RDF group who need to know how to drive i.e Inf

Most of my civvy B/C/D licence holders are NCOs and I dont want or need them driving.

If an NCO is driving it means somethings wrong.

So - I need Mod 1 courses. WHERE ARE THEY ? No instructors on Inf Bn Estab.

There was a "conversion course" being organised within my sub-unit this year that turned into a brigade cse. It was modules 1 & 2. Module 1 is Drivers Standing Orders, Health & Safety, Documentation etc, why do need module 1 courses? We did it in 2 1/2 - 3 days.

Trellheim if you can't get PDF drivers / hire transport and you want to get somewhere, are you still going to advise NCOs not to do the driving course?

Infantry units are supposed to be self sufficient with regard to transport. Agreed most people with B/C/D licences are going to be NCOs, but not all. Of course their is the problem of a shortage of 3 stars but thats another story.

Tpt Coy 62 LSB has a min of around 4/5 MT Dvr Instrs.

trellheim
12th October 2007, 17:47
Of course not. The lack of NCOs & drivers means everyone a driver means that everyone who is driving usually doesn´t lead the troops.

Drivers tend to drive ... NCOs should lead. Difficult to do so from the wheel.

As for Mod 1 I meant driving from the learning to drive -i.e. provisional B licence only.

Like I said my full B/C/D licence boys tend to be a few years on and NCOs and I want them leading not driving.

Theres no problem hiring transport but why bother when I could have real transport ?.

plus I need them driving trucks not transits or nissans but I know its not set up like that so cue crapola from tpt saying thats not our job.

Here is a factoid for yez : 22 years in old and new merged Inf Coy. Zero FCA and RDF drivers qualified on any GS-Wagon-truck in that time in the coy. I can have 5-10 people on a learning to drive course tomorrow - theyll happily drive for me for 2 years . Where are the courses ...

DeV
12th October 2007, 18:06
Of course not. The lack of NCOs & drivers means everyone a driver means that everyone who is driving usually doesn´t lead the troops.

Drivers tend to drive ... NCOs should lead. Difficult to do so from the wheel.

Agreed, plus it can be difficult for drivers to multi task (depending on the situation).


As for Mod 1 I meant driving from the learning to drive -i.e. provisional B licence only.
Unfortually it takes longer than the 7 day course I did.


Theres no problem hiring transport but why bother when I could have real transport ?. So long as the budget hasn't been spent!


plus I need them driving trucks not transits or nissans but I know its not set up like that so cue crapola from tpt saying thats not our job. Actually it is, as luchi has said the bread & butter of tpt is now drops, coaches, etc. Problem is that driving is modular (and in infantry case it is usually a conversion course, not a learn to drive cse) so you have to do nissan before you go on the standard 154 (minibus & TCV).


I can have 5-10 people on a learning to drive course tomorrow - theyll happily drive for me for 2 years . Where are the courses ... Ask cadre / tpt / bde?

luchi
12th October 2007, 21:43
Before you guys go off the deep end about the driving courses. TVMS have instructed our MT officer that the syllibus must be followed to the letter!!
SO from now on.
Mod 1 is 70hrs, thats 3 weeks full time or 1 year + 2 weeks camp in RDF.
MOd 2 is 171hrs, thats 7 weeks full time or 3 years and two 2 week camps.

So can you really do without 10 bods for 4 years and 3 camps just to drive for 2 years.

Hence although I said "not my job" in reality for the for seeable future it is!!!

And we have 8 TVMS tested Instructors but a lot more "old" instructors that the CO has insisted continue to instruct regardless of the TI!!!

If we are to discuss this further I suggest we do it else where?

Oh just to clarify an earlier point
When the FCA was formed everyone was considered capable of riding a bicycle. In 2007 many can drive a car. Thus I consider it a basic skill. NOt one that takes 241 hours to learn!!!!

trellheim
13th October 2007, 16:00
Following that line of logic an S&T recruit must pass recruit and 2* training before getting to drive.

Both Rec. and 2* training take a year each; that course above takes a year. Therefore 3 years before being able to drive. What use is that.

Additionally, those can be done at weekends [ and as far as I remember the syllabus says test them when they're ready not after a certain amount of hours ]

fred the red
14th October 2007, 17:31
on the subject of nco's driving.

nco's you are nearly guarenteed will turn up on a sunday morning
when they are needed pte's you cant really rely on (in my unit anyway)
plus if you have nco's on drivers coarses the following year you wont be lookin for more places on coarses because the privates have gone off to collage or just decided the reserve wasnt for them.
in my unit we only have two reserve drivers and neither can drive a truck.
i was supposed to be goin on a drivers coarse a while ago only to be told the day before that no snr nco's were allowed on it since when has a sgt been a snr nco ?

Goldie fish
14th October 2007, 22:08
Maybe they ment senior as in OLD?

Liachta Cultaca
15th October 2007, 13:27
Before you guys go off the deep end about the driving courses. TVMS have instructed our MT officer that the syllibus must be followed to the letter!!
SO from now on.
Mod 1 is 70hrs, thats 3 weeks full time or 1 year + 2 weeks camp in RDF.
MOd 2 is 171hrs, thats 7 weeks full time or 3 years and two 2 week camps.


Is there no way that the TVMS will recognize civilian qualifications to drive?

ie if you have a full B license can you not go forward to be tested for a restricted 154 etc??

luchi
15th October 2007, 14:37
Following that line of logic an S&T recruit must pass recruit and 2* training before getting to drive.

S&T is gone its Tpt but yes you must have 3* before going on a driving course.


Both Rec. and 2* training take a year each; that course above takes a year. Therefore 3 years before being able to drive. What use is that.

3 years before you can start the mod 2 driving course. Technically you still can't drive. So 5 years to drive a nissan on your own!!!!


Additionally, those can be done at weekends [ and as far as I remember the syllabus says test them when they're ready not after a certain amount of hours ]

In my course duration calculations above, I was assuming the use of weekends etc. "Test when ready" is an interesting concept when you must show a training diary detailing the completion of the hrs of the syllibus.

Module 2 has 23 hrs of lectures i.e. 16 tuesday nights (2 classes per night) or 6 field days.


Is there no way that the TVMS will recognize civilian qualifications to drive?

Ha'Ha! Are you serious?


ie if you have a full B license can you not go forward to be tested for a restricted 154 etc??
Of course you can as long as you do a 1 week conversion course.

This is where I have a rant.

Module 1 is a farce!!!

Do the mil authorities think that their own personnel are too thick to be able to learn the ROTR and DSO. The syllibus of training is a joke designed to delay progress as much as possible.

Why not give lads that are interested in becoming drivers the DSO and ROTR with their 2*. Tell them to come back when they have their 3* to be tested. No need to hand hold, they do it if they want to move on. If they pass then they can be taught admin and TA proceedures on a field day then straight on to the driving and vehicle checks!!

Mod 2 is little better than mod 1. Considering the H&S is just a repeat but they insist that it must be done.
Mod 3 syllibus is 7 years old but is more realistic than mod 1 or 2. Peoplelearn to drive empty vehicles arround. Then the first detail they have a load they nearly sh1t themselves because the vehicle doesn't handle the same way

When will the mil authorities take their heads out of their asses and realise that people are not brain dead. Driving is now a basic skill like riding a bike was 50 years ago!!! And yes even driving a truck!!! Some have an aptitude for it and some don't but that doesn't make it any less of a basic skill.

DeV
15th October 2007, 14:44
Are the "conversation courses" still allowed for full licence holders luchi?

luchi
15th October 2007, 15:46
I am still looking for the conversion course syllibus. But it is a 1 week full time course. We have run a few overweek ends but have now been told that it is to be done as a week full time with the test carried out by the testing officer in 2LSB. I can see the point in this as doing weekends makes it drag for everyone.

The conversion course only gives you mod 2 regardless of experience. Up untill recently it was accepted that professional drivers would be "fast tracked" but there is now resistance to that. Probably reflecting the RTA changes and the RSA involvement in transport management.

On the subject of professional drivers. They cannot legally drive for the DF at the weekend if exceeded their driving hours during the week. And if they do any other paid employment during their rest period they are legally obliged to take a 48hr rest period before re-starting work. So if you unit has any HGV of LPSV drivers you can forget about them driving at weekends.

DeV
15th October 2007, 16:08
The tester has to come from either a different LSB (ie from a different bde than the students) or from TVMS.

luchi
15th October 2007, 16:18
The tester has to come from either a different LSB (ie from a different bde than the students) or from TVMS.

Nope.

Only Mod 1,2 and 3 full crse.

For mod 4 and conversion any testing officer can do.

So far we have 3 conversions and 4 mod 4s done this way.

I'm not just reading the books on this one.

hptmurphy
15th October 2007, 18:45
If an NCO is driving it means somethings wrong.

Not always the case..unit specific. Cavalry Corps has a lot of NCO drivers due to the fact that some courses only become available after a given time frame in which time the person may have qualified as an NCO.

If it was on the Res cav sylabus that some one should have qualified in all the driving and gunnery modules we would have no NCO's.

Yes agreed there should be a requirement for more trooper/ private drivers its not always attainable due to the other factors involved.

If a three star has to qualify in all the other roles before becoming a NCO it would create a massive void in the NCO ranks..as in to qualify to Armour standard a guy would on average have to have had at least six years of driving alone before qualifying for a pots course,

We have four Nissan truck and AML instructors in our unit and three of those are DR qualified instructors also .

And thats the driving qualifications alone..taken in the past that we have also to qualify personel on weapons specific to the vehicles along side driving it took guys over ten years to attain Driving instructor status.

luchi
15th October 2007, 20:54
And thats the driving qualifications alone..taken in the past that we have also to qualify personel on weapons specific to the vehicles along side driving it took guys over ten years to attain Driving instructor status.

And now........thanks to someone in the upper etcheleons..........................Your driving instructors are not qualified to teach Nissan or Truck as they have not completed the 5 week full time TVMS instructors course. But they are still qualified to instruct armoured cars and bikes as they are corp specific tasks!!!

but then irrespective of all of that........................anyone can instruct driving once they have a 154 and are an NCO and the CO says so!!!!!!

Don't you just love the contradictions!!!!!!!

hptmurphy
15th October 2007, 21:27
And now........thanks to someone in the upper etcheleons..........................Your driving instructors are not qualified to teach Nissan or Truck as they have not completed the 5 week full time TVMS instructors course. But they are still qualified to instruct armoured cars and bikes as they are corp specific tasks!!!

eh ! you can tell them that......!

You might mention it to the cav. school in the Curragh while you are at it....

any more good news?

luchi
15th October 2007, 21:57
The cav school is fully aware. Its in TI 7/2006

TVMS are fully aware that if they tried to stick to that load of bo**ocks that the whole system would grind to a halt!!!

Thats why you can instruct on COs orders.....................or so WE have been told but then again there are so many interpretations of the truth!!!!

hptmurphy
15th October 2007, 22:09
I reckon they stick to the old format..at least some one will have qualified at some stage and are the closest we have to trained in structiord

luchi
15th October 2007, 22:18
One thing that I have noticedis that the standard of instructor has "changed"

Not improved just changed.

As far as I can see the emphasis for the "new instructors" is follow the format and use power point"

as opposed to the old way of

"teach the subject the way the student will understand"

Net result there has been an increase in the number of accidents with people under instruction!!

trellheim
16th October 2007, 11:08
but as usual the people who need tpt the most are left ever farther behind.

luchi
16th October 2007, 12:35
This is why I say the "New" syllabus is a load of crap.

Mod 1 should be scrapped. Anyone with a DOT licence has done ROTR, SO a simple refresher test is all that is required. Anyone that can read can learn DSOs and then again a test can be done to confirm they know what they are about. And Tpt admin can be done before and after each practical class. Thus in theory you should be able to get lads on to Mod 2 in a reasonable time.
Mod 2 and 3 than should run up to test standard. The syllabus should show the main blocks that the trainee drivers are required to demonstrate proficiency in as opposed to looking for classes to be held in particular topics. It is impossible to spend an hour teaching someone to turn left!!

Goldie fish
16th October 2007, 12:37
If they can't increase the motorcycle or Car and trailer speed limits to 21st century standards what hope is there for them to make dramatic changes like you suggest.

luchi
16th October 2007, 14:08
I don't mind them having "their" way of doing it.

I do mind them insisting that we follow their way in such a manner that

it demoralises those trying to do the job.
It reduces the overall quaity of subject they are trying to teach
It makes the course so long no one is interested in completing it
When a student passes a test of a prescribed standard that they can actually fail because of a training diary
they look down on people because they have not completed a new instructors course even though these have been training safe drivers for years.
the Driver / instructor tests are competency tests yet they look for reproduction of their teaching instead of competency in the role!!!


Its the army........................so it will only change when the sh1t hits the fan and they realise to move on the need to do something different.
Then they will prob do as in the UK. Bring in external civvi instructors that way they don't have to change and afterwards any one trained by ther civvis will have to redo the army course!!!

trellheim
16th October 2007, 15:20
Well thanks for that interesting insight into S&T politics; doesn't solve my problem though.


To take the worst way [ i.e. the army way ] of doing it, what would be wrong with running 5-10 weekends of DSOs + Mod 1 to get them on Nissans if they have a B licence.

The declared focus of training is on distance education wherever possible, so why not just test them on DSOs and then make them reverse the GS ?

luchi
16th October 2007, 16:08
Is that not what I said should be done? (in previous posts)

Ok here is a secret that is should not tell you
** LSB is starting a mod 1 conversion course on the ##/###. If that unit can get away with it the course, which in the current climate is possible the course should be finished on $$/$$$. There are only ££ on the course but if you stick to the syllabus you can get another ^ on to it.
So cutting out the BS in above posts if you contact Lt K of ** LSB I am sure you could get ^ of your N* on the course. And if you are care full they can be on attachment until they complete mod 3 yet still do their prescribed training with you.

Sorry but I had to edit out "sensitive info". Can't afford to fall foul of the mods!!! but if you use std coms on the correct day of the week you could fill in the blanks. There are 1 or 2 instructors that might even be willing to do the course in CBB so your lads need not even relocate, but that just my opinion.

Oh and I will deny all knowledge of this board and anyone on it if you say where you got this info!!!!

trellheim
16th October 2007, 17:06
Is that a B licence holder course or a from zero course.

DeV
16th October 2007, 17:20
The conversion cse (for fully licenced DTT "B" holders to restricted 154 (Nissan without trailer) I was on was 2x field days (DSOs, Accident Procedure, Manual Handling, tpt admin). Followed by 5 days FTT (1 day on fault finding, revision of stuff covered on field days, 1 day off road & 3 days driving (including the test (testers from S Bde).

As regards to learning DSO, tpt admin & accident procedure that was done in your own time. Everything was covered & explained in lessons, we were given the chance to learn it & then it was tested. The most effective use of our time & mandays IMO.

luchi
17th October 2007, 13:52
Is that a B licence holder course or a from zero course.

If I answer that directly I will fall foul of the Mods but it is the start of Mod 1


The conversion cse (for fully licenced DTT "B" holders to restricted 154 (Nissan without trailer) I was on was 2x field days (DSOs, Accident Procedure, Manual Handling, tpt admin). Followed by 5 days FTT (1 day on fault finding, revision of stuff covered on field days, 1 day off road & 3 days driving (including the test (testers from S Bde).

Conversion course is module 2B, I am told, is suspended until further notice.
But the actual duration given for Mod 2B course is 1 week.. I assume from your description that it is a 7 day week.


As regards to learning DSO, tpt admin & accident procedure that was done in your own time. Everything was covered & explained in lessons, we were given the chance to learn it & then it was tested. The most effective use of our time & mandays IMO.

BUt did you need everything explained?

luchi
1st November 2007, 16:26
Here is a factoid for yez : 22 years in old and new merged Inf Coy. Zero FCA and RDF drivers qualified on any GS-Wagon-truck in that time in the coy. I can have 5-10 people on a learning to drive course tomorrow - theyll happily drive for me for 2 years . Where are the courses ...

Since our last chat n the subject have you actually tried to get your bods on the course?

Some other units have lads that completed Mod 2 in the not so distant past. Is anyone on the Mod 3 crse that starts early next year?

trellheim
1st November 2007, 16:34
Oh yes; a brief call to your unit Tuesday last was shrugged off dismissively, as was predicted.

A: We haven't got permission
B: We've no spaces even if we did .
C: How did you get this number ?

luchi
1st November 2007, 16:58
Oh yes; a brief call to your unit Tuesday last was shrugged off dismissively, as was predicted.

Ah..............I thought my officers comments were a little odd..............anyway you spoke to the wrong guy....the one you should have talked to was with me all evening.


A: We haven't got permission
B: We've no spaces even if we did .
C: How did you get this number ?

I hope you gave the appropriate answers

A: Oh I see but isn't that just a matter of applying?
B: I see but on the 3* training you only sent X and according to the mod 1 syllibus the max number for the crse is Y. That implies you have at least z places free???
C: its in a little booklet published by the DF. It lists the numbers for all units!!

And did the person tell yo uthat there is a course been run "specifically for inf drivers" in the new year?

trellheim
1st November 2007, 17:24
Why should I get involved in an S&T ballsup ? and ask A ? or B ? How would I even know to ?

And it was a rank below officer I had the conversation with.

Compare you lot to the Medics; Any time we need one - they're happy to come away with us , no problem teaching Med Lessons and there's any number of courses during the year run.

it's an attitude problem no more no less.

hedgehog
1st November 2007, 18:49
Since our last chat n the subject have you actually tried to get your bods on the course?

Some other units have lads that completed Mod 2 in the not so distant past. Is anyone on the Mod 3 crse that starts early next year?

As a matter of interest

what Rank are you

luchi
1st November 2007, 20:55
Why should I get involved in an S&T ballsup ? and ask A ? or B ? How would I even know to ?

And it was a rank below officer I had the conversation with.

Compare you lot to the Medics; Any time we need one - they're happy to come away with us , no problem teaching Med Lessons and there's any number of courses during the year run.

it's an attitude problem no more no less.

"Long Sigh" Please, don't take it out on me.
I am, as I think you well know, just part of the low life. Its the guys at your level and above that make the rules. I gave you info that I know others in the past have made use of. If you choose not use it then you obviously aren't that pushed about it.


There is an Annual Training Directive for a reason.

Again "above my pay grade"


As a matter of interest

what Rank are you

I thought you knew the answer to that????

trellheim
2nd November 2007, 00:16
Absolute arse.
You told me to ring to try and get people onto a course; I rang and got the PFO [ as stated ] [ and as expected but hey the organ grinder might actually answer the phone instead of the monkeys for once ] ,<- y'see what we have to live with ?

luchi
2nd November 2007, 08:19
Absolute arse.
You told me to ring to try and get people onto a course; I rang and got the PFO [ as stated ] [ and as expected but hey the organ grinder might actually answer the phone instead of the monkeys for once ] ,<- y'see what we have to live with ?

Totally

But I think you have it a little wrong there.

The monkeys are all more than willing to perform. :cool:

The organ grinder is also very willing to put on a show. :cool:

However the organ grinder is subject to his bosses rules. The boss is near retirement and is quite happy to sail along. The receptionist can only book performances that the boss will permit. :redface:

We have just completed a crse for the lads in Dundalk. why should it be possible to do a crse for them and not you?
I suppose, being one of the monkeys, I just will never understand the complex world of you organ grinders. :biggrin:

fred the red
2nd November 2007, 08:25
Totally

But I think you have it a little wrong there.

The monkeys are all more than willing to perform. :cool:

The organ grinder is also very willing to put on a show. :cool:

However the organ grinder is subject to his bosses rules. The boss is near retirement and is quite happy to sail along. The receptionist can only book performances that the boss will permit. :redface:

We have just completed a crse for the lads in Dundalk. why should it be possible to do a crse for them and not you?
I suppose, being one of the monkeys, I just will never understand the complex world of you organ grinders. :biggrin:

Hi Luchi im only a monkey aswell but there is no show without us.:biggrin:

can you tell me is there going to be a module one course coming up in the near future.

trellheim
2nd November 2007, 10:32
You see, you're mistaking me for someone who cares about S&T and their problems. I'm not. I care for the outputs to the units that need them and specifically mine.

luchi
2nd November 2007, 10:39
You see, you're mistaking me for someone who cares about S&T and their problems. I'm not. I care for the outputs to the units that need them and specifically mine.

No I don't actually.

I recognise you as one of the many people that although they have a problem and there is a solution to that problem they are prepared to sit back because the solution is not their problem.

In other words. If you really wanted the 5 alledgedly available lads on a course you could make it happen. But thats not your job. So keep whinging untill some one else makes it happen.

trellheim
2nd November 2007, 10:58
Aaaand that's nice of you to assume that I'm the man to fix the S&T problems. A large mallet might be more appropriate.

When and where do these lads report and what stuff do they need to bring with them ?

DeV
2nd November 2007, 12:31
Suggest to talk to a certain cadre CQ when you meet him next about any driving cses, he will give you the no BS answers.

luchi
2nd November 2007, 12:40
Aaaand that's nice of you to assume that I'm the man to fix the S&T problems. A large mallet might be more appropriate.

When and where do these lads report and what stuff do they need to bring with them ?

The question you ask is something that can only be answered when those of you in power tell us minions to go ahead.

You miss interpret what I said.
You say you want to solve your tpt need. There are ways if you really want.

You are now aware of the potential to get a couple of your lads on a course. You made 1 call and given the std PFO.

So you then sit back and say "nothing more to do"

it's an attitude problem no more no less.



Here is a factoid for yez : 22 years in old and new merged Inf Coy. Zero FCA and RDF drivers qualified on any GS-Wagon-truck in that time in the coy. I can have 5-10 people on a learning to drive course tomorrow - theyll happily drive for me for 2 years . Where are the courses ...

I know of about 20 drivers from MPC, CIS, FAR and INF that were trained from scratch by by us in that period.
And in the last 2 years over 60 have done the mod 2b course.


The Annual Training Directive mandates named units to run named courses throughout the year. It has an RDF section.

What does it say about driving courses?
Does it say anything about the course in the new year?

irishmilitaria
2nd November 2007, 13:05
Typical RDF officer attitude........i'll sit on my big fat lazy hole for long enough, hope someone else does my job for me, and makes everything fall into place, and then I'll take all the credit for it.

But yet same RDF officers ponce around as if they run the DF. It's no wonder that most RDF officers, with very few exceptions, are laughed at by both the RDF and PDF.

If you want to get bods on a driving course, then put some effort into make it happen, not one poxy phone call.

Nothing that a kick up the hole from a PDF Training Officer wouldn't sort out.

trellheim
2nd November 2007, 13:13
No.


See my point of view

1: No notice received for courses
2: Advised [ on this board ] that a course may be going ahead
3: Rang to find out - got PFO . Assume phone call correct, normally beats forum
4: here we are, usual bullshit coming from S&T on the forum backed up by no facts at all.


OK.

small simple questions [ just answer y/n ]

1: Is there a course Approved and doesn't look like it'll be cancelled
2: Are there spare places NOW
3: is it for B licence holders
4: is it for "No Licence" holders
5: is it supposed to start this year.

No bullshit answers.

You would suggest I ring someone else to be told the same thing ?

luchi
2nd November 2007, 13:30
No.


See my point of view

1: No notice received for courses
2: Advised [ on this board ] that a course may be going ahead
3: Rang to find out - got PFO . Assume phone call correct, normally beats forum
4: here we are, usual bullshit coming from S&T on the forum backed up by no facts at all.


OK.


I see your point very clearly. I know that there is loads of BS.

small simple questions [ just answer y/n ]

1: Is there a course Approved and doesn't look like it'll be cancelled
2: Are there spare places NOW
3: is it for B licence holders
4: is it for "No Licence" holders
5: is it supposed to start this year.

No bullshit answers.

You would suggest I ring someone else to be told the same thing ?

A short time ago I answered similar questions directly.

The post was moderated and I was told next time I would get points.

So I will say this.

Early next year out 3* start mod 1. the course is undersubscribed. In previous years other units have put lads on our course.
How?
I don't know as I said its above my pay grade but the fact is it has been going on for years!

Secondly our training officer announced that there is Mod 2/3 courses been run for "Infantry drivers". Thursday-monday early next year and that all instructors are to be available.

Judging the date of the course it is to late to cancel. I don't know how you don't know about this already.

ZULU
2nd November 2007, 14:12
There were two of us from my unit attached to a LSB unit for a driving course. We were told from both sides that it would be up to MOD 4. But once we had the MOD 2 done we were written off (pun :biggrin: ) by a specific higher up because he thought
"I dont want them (unit) becoming too self sufficient"

luchi
2nd November 2007, 14:23
AFIK cav and LSB are the only ones in RDF that do mod 4.

Totally different mod 4s though!

But who is the looney that stopped you doing mod 3??

ZULU
2nd November 2007, 14:32
They are some one VERY high up the signing off sheet

MOD 4 for us was proposed to be the MERC and if suitable DROPS.

Thats great except all we needed was to be clear to drive a mini bus

luchi
2nd November 2007, 15:18
Marc is a mod 3 vehicle and so is the minibus.

As far as TVMS is concerned the minibus is only 30mins training in the mod 3 crse.

Mod 4 is DROPS, Coach, recovery, APC, Tank etc,etc and the lawnmower!!!!!

trellheim
2nd November 2007, 16:31
Don't get involved Zulu you'll find yourself sucked into S&T castles in the sky with no basis in the real world.

luchi
4th November 2007, 02:45
Don't get involved Zulu you'll find yourself sucked into S&T castles in the sky with no basis in the real world.

Are you saying my answer to Zulu is not correct or unsubstantiated?
Look at the Mod 3 and 4 Syllibi

Hmm lets just take a quick look back at our chat shall we?


well now here´s a a question. How many RDF driving instructors are there and why aren´t they out teaching the biggest RDF group who need to know how to drive i.e Inf

Don't know about other Bdes but in Dublin they have been turning out about 20 drivers per year for the last 3 years. None for you obviously.

Wonder why?


Most of my civvy B/C/D licence holders are NCOs and I dont want or need them driving.

If an NCO is driving it means somethings wrong.

If you had drivers you would also require an NCO as Tpt IC. They would be a driver too but from this comment you put no value on an NCO driver????


So - I need Mod 1 courses. WHERE ARE THEY ? No instructors on Inf Bn Estab.

Oh dear.
Instructors must be NCOs with 154s. But if you had one there would be something wrong.
Your words not mine!!!! Not going to get very far then are you?
Even if you did decide that a driving instructor was worth having, the Driving instructors course is 5 weeks full time. The only crse is a PDF one. Do you think you can find some one willing to give up 5 weeks?



plus I need them driving trucks not transits or nissans but I know its not set up like that so cue crapola from tpt saying thats not our job.


Now you are displaying a total lack of knowledge of how things are supposed to work but at the same time trying to say what you think you need.

Many non Dublin units only have a transit and would kill for a transit driver. There has even been requests to TVMS to have a special transit/ midi-coach module for the Inf. But then again you do state later you only care about your own. Who can really blame you?


Following that line of logic an S&T recruit must pass recruit and 2* training before getting to drive.

Both Rec. and 2* training take a year each; that course above takes a year. Therefore 3 years before being able to drive. What use is that.

Good question. Being an officer you might ask the more usefull question. Why do the inf not train all recruits and let the tech units (and I include ADR and FAR in that) train the specialists?


Additionally, those can be done at weekends [ and as far as I remember the syllabus says test them when they're ready not after a certain amount of hours ]

There is nothing in the Syllibus about weekends. mod 1 is 35hrs or 5 days but you are quite correct mod 2 is test when ready. We have 3 students ready but TVMS cannot test until June, so test when ready really means test when they are ready.
So how many years can you spare your NCO+Pte drivers.


but as usual the people who need tpt the most are left ever farther behind.

Some are. As above I wonder why.


Oh yes; a brief call to your unit Tuesday last was shrugged off dismissively, as was predicted.



Well thanks for that interesting insight into S&T politics; doesn't solve my problem though.


You see, you're mistaking me for someone who cares about S&T and their problems

Aaaand that's nice of you to assume that I'm the man to fix the S&T problems. A large mallet might be more appropriate.


Absolute arse



it's an attitude problem no more no less.

I agree totally but whos attitude?

I have just returned from an Inf excersise. They had 3 LSB drivers 1 PDF driver and £ Inf drivers. Only 2 drivers were not trained by me. Can you guess which 2?

As I look back over this thread I see that you have absolutly no respect for any forth e drivers. You, although it has been pointed out more than once, can't even bother to use the new LSB title.

Judging by your comments above I wonder did your conversation last tuesday night go
T: Hello is thar 11th S&T
Reply: Sorry that unit no longer exist.
T: I don't give a crap. I am LT T and I want you shower to give my men a driving course.
Reply: Sorry sir none available
T: Well F-you. Thats just typicll S&T crap.
then you slammed down the phone?

trellheim
4th November 2007, 10:44
A few points;

I stand by my statement. If an NCO is driving it means something wrong.

The exceptions are :

1: He needs to drive to remain qualified [ i.e. certain amount of hours a year ]
2: He's in charge of a detail or convoy of drivers [ i.e Tpt NCO ]
3: Driving the vehicle doesn't interfere with his job or is his job [ e.g. APC Sgt or Driving Instructor ]
4: Last resort only; everyone else is on a detail.

The imputation is NCOs DO NOT drive in general. Now and again when necessary, yes of course. Ptes, Troopers and Gunners drive; NCOs lead.

Consider. I have 3 Cpls currently to run a 30+man recruit pln. How many of them should go on a driving course ? 2 or 3 ?


As for your other questions ?

Why do the inf not train all recruits ? We were told to and we did last year, apart from some units who didn't want to join the party. Welcome to 2007.

I can't help the dates you get from TVMS .

No , I can't guess which 2 drivers they were. It wasn't me though, I can guarantee you that.

I do have respect for drivers. They've never crashed with me in the back or the front. I have respect for soldiers who drive; I know about hours limits and I know they're a valuable resource that you can't abuse. Anytime I've needed battalion drivers [ 2 or 62 ] , and I mean REALLY needed them, they've been there. Same for Cav, 2AD , and NSR


Transport Coy of the 62 LSB is the nominal new title and I'd use it if it was warranted. The 11 S&T attitude is alive and well though, so I'm sticking with the name.



As for the phone call, minus the abuse from me that was pretty much the story. [ i.e. none available ]

End result : No course.


I've worked with RDF units as follows :

PAs : no problem, need to get them to take off the red hat and they're fine.
Sigs/CIS : Fantastic bunch, so far ahead of the rest of the Army reserve in what they do it's scary.
ADR : Band of professionals, couldn't do enough to help you
Cav: Another gang of consummate pros, NCOs very good indeed.
Artillery : get them to stop stroking the guns and they're fine.
Medics : Couldn't do enough for you.
NSR : Hardest-working bunch in the whole RDF.
Engineers : haven't done much with them but they've been there when needed.


Transport : Earth to 'prima-donna land' ? Hello ? Out to you.


Lastly, when are you guys moving over to be with your parent unit ?

DeV
4th November 2007, 13:54
While I do see the benefit of having learning to drive from stratch cses for RDF Infantry - I believe mandays could be used more economically by having conversation cses.

If they want to learn to drive from sratch, ask Tpt Coy can X amount of ptes parade with them for the next year.

What makes you think that being an NCO who is also a AF154 holder takes the NCO away from their job as an instructor/section cmdr treillheim?

Some of us have been doing both job and more - Since early this year, I've driven 1.5 hours to bring troops to training, done my job as instructor (or whatever it happens to be at the time), and then driven 1.5 hours to bring the troops home. In effect I've doubled the amount of hours I do on a weekly basis - it hasn't effect my job as a driver or an NCO in any way.

If leaving the vehicle is part of the detail there is nothing to stop the driver leaving the vehicle (if it isn't a commissioned officer simply has to sign the req) - so long as there is somewhere safe & secure to park the vehicle.

Also if you feel you are loosing an NCO by having them as a 154 holder, would the same not stand for having a 154 holding private?

trellheim
4th November 2007, 17:24
Dev :

firstly see Point 3 above.

As to the last point A private with an AF154 isn't "lost".... About 25% of an Inf Coy privates should be drivers in any event. We would then be getting to the point that the Coy would be self-sufficient.

Hedgie/GH what are the PDF percentage numbers ?


Case study
If you're a Sgt [ one of two sgts let us say ] on a summer camp. There are 4 AF154 holders on the camp; you are one of them.

the BSM has darted you as Duty Driver on the night your Pl is on exercise; further he doesn't like you and didn't let you swap. So your Pl is now down a Pl Sgt since you have to stay in Coolmoney [ or whatever ] .

So : the Sgt shouldn't be a Duty Driver then ? there are only 4 ... the wrangling continues.

I stand by the point; NCOs should not drive unless for the 4 reasons above.

luchi
5th November 2007, 00:21
Transport : Earth to 'prima-donna land' ? Hello ? Out to you.

Hold on a second

I've been on camp as a driver with 11th Sigs, 2nd Medics, 11th Engineers, 20th Bn, 5th Bn, 65th Bn, 62 FAR and 2AD. I am using their unit designations of the time.
I or any of the drivers with me were never once been accused having any attitude other than a "get the job done"

From RDF Officer selection
Luchi Asked

"why do we constantly get a weeks notice for requirement for transport?".

We never get transport from you.

So if you have never got tpt from us when exactly did you work with any of us?
When did you get this "Earth to 'prima-donna land" thing from.

Or did you just pull it out of the air?

Although I will admit there is a PDF sgt ( I think he is with BTC or RDFHQ not sure which) that accused me of having the "The 11 S&T attitude" because I refused to drive a truck with 2 serious defects, accelerator and steering.
He appologised afterwards when the workshops said the vehicle was scrapped as it was a "death trap"


Lastly, when are you guys moving over to be with your parent unit ?

You tell me. That sort of info would be known by officers such as yourself.


If they want to learn to drive from sratch, ask Tpt Coy can X amount of ptes parade with them for the next year.

Thats what I thought and is why I posted the fact that our mod 1 starts soon. But obvoiusly this wouldn't be good enough for Mr Ts unit.
But I also pointed out that test dates are not always available so courses can drag on. Again I know you don't care, so don't bother commenting.

And what units recruits did you train? Certainly not CIS, CAV, PA, Tpt, FAR, or AD. You might have done the training camp but you certainly did not take them from scratch.
Most of these units have at least 5 NCOs doing training of recruit to 3* classes. Thats 5 NCOs that should actually be teaching tech classes in what ever is the unit speciality.

trellheim
5th November 2007, 01:14
Ah... you mean train recruits up to 3 star level fully after initial recruitment . Why didn't you say, rather than the usual centralized camps ? <- it's a fair question.



The answer to that is cos the man called D Res says not to. Typically also units do not want to do this; the rattles that get thrown out of prams are ferocious.


It's also a larger point and not one we can do here in our squabbling confines of the thread, but worth a discussion on the mainboard, although I'm sure we've done it already.

Right back to the thread :

I checked with the orderly room today [ again ] still no word of anything on any courses.

Oh I care all right. I see the lack of a provision of a service [ Driver Training ] year in, year out from a particular unit. Most other things - no problem and I made it clear above how the various units have worked with us.

DeV
5th November 2007, 20:00
Good point about duty driver trellheim, the same could be said for privates being duty driver. The same could be said about security/guard/resting off, especially if you are short of ptes and/or NCOs as we always are.

In fairness, 62LSB ran a conversation course for Bde this year (when it was first muted, it was just to be for 1 coy of 1 bn), over 20 drivers (from all over the bde) were on it.

There are plans I think to run Module 3 early next year.

Leave it with me trellheim, if I hear (which I am likely to) of drivers course being run (for non-Tpt Coy personnel) in the next while I will let you know. It is likely that they will have to hold min full car licence before starting the course if/when it is run (as otherwise the course would have to be longer). Otherwise I'd advice informally approaching Tpt to see if a few of your lads/ladies could complete the course by parading with them. Check out TI 02-2001 as to who can instruct on Module 1, plus there is a qualified MT instructor in our unit.

MOD: Also please keep it civil there is no need for anyone to revert to insult/abuse (I'm not saying it has happen but it seems to be heading that way).

Big Al
5th November 2007, 20:17
Out of interest what effect would an accident in MT have on your civy licence or insurance, for example a stick a transit into the back for someones CLK, most insurance companies ask you if you have been claims free for the last 5 years, would an accident that you were at fault in MT affect this? Assuming your CO was going to charge you is this a pending prosecution?

luchi
6th November 2007, 00:30
In fairness, 62LSB ran a conversation course for Bde this year (when it was first muted, it was just to be for 1 coy of 1 bn), over 20 drivers (from all over the bde) were on it.


That was the second Bde Conv crse. 65th Inf 62MPC and 62 CIS all got drivers from the first one. This is why I dont understand why others haven't got them and why "others" then just consider the unit "prema donnas".( you still havn't clarified how you came to this opinion)

Did your attitude (as displayed above, which I assume is the attitude of your fellow unit officers) towards the unit and NCOs driving, in general, effect a decision to send people?


There are plans I think to run Module 3 early next year.

Leave it with me trellheim, if I hear (which I am likely to) of drivers course being run (for non-Tpt Coy personnel) in the next while I will let you know. It is likely that they will have to hold min full car licence before starting the course if/when it is run (as otherwise the course would have to be longer). Otherwise I'd advice informally approaching Tpt to see if a few of your lads/ladies could complete the course by parading with them. Check out TI 02-2001 as to who can instruct on Module 1, plus there is a qualified MT instructor in our unit.


As I said already there is a mod 3 course and possibly a mod 2 one too in the new year. Last time I gave further info on such mattere I got 4 points so I am not about to repeat the mistake. I just can't understand how you guys don't now when it is. There is obviously a breakdown in coms.


Out of interest what effect would an accident in MT have on your civy licence or insurance, for example a stick a transit into the back for someones CLK, most insurance companies ask you if you have been claims free for the last 5 years, would an accident that you were at fault in MT affect this? Assuming your CO was going to charge you is this a pending prosecution?

It depends on how you are prosecuted.
If you are prosecuted by a Garda then that is a civil matter and you are duly obliged to inform your insurance company
If it was inter DF affair, up untill 01-01-07 what happened in the DF stayed in the DF but now the MPs can actually prosecute you in an civvi court if they can show you acted contary to the RTA. AFAIK It has not been done yet but it is possible.
Also if you have an accident with a civvi and the CO or military court, court martial, finds against you, you can be liable for up to 2/3 the cost of the dammage to both vehicles.
If instructing and a pupil has an accident the liability can be placed on the instructor.

Again AFAIK this has not happened yet.

Something to think about though eh?

As for mod comments re insutls. IMHO I see no reason why two mature adults would resort to such carry on.

Big Al
6th November 2007, 00:46
cheers, one other question I was driving on the N7 back to dublin a couple of weeks ago and there was a MP nissan using the garda ramp doing speed checks, if the MPs pull you for going too fast in MT what is the penalty point situation?

In light of what you say above, especially about the potential of being personally liable for 2/3s of the cost of an accident i cant see the benefits of holding a 154

Goldie fish
6th November 2007, 02:56
Surely if you are involved in an RTA you are obliged to contact Both Gardai and Military police? Thats what DSO said last time I looked.

But what would I know.....

Liachta Cultaca
6th November 2007, 10:57
luchi

Why don't Transport Company 62 LSB run conversion course twice a year so that the number of soldiers with restricted AF154s is greater

This would also reduce the work load of Transport Company???

Entry requirement for this conversion course is full B license.

trellheim
6th November 2007, 13:30
Well I think I've clarified my opinion in several posts in this thread. I've also demonstrated how to prove I am right by telephoning and asking people about things.


As to your snide question
"Did your attitude (as displayed above, which I assume is the attitude of your fellow unit officers) towards the unit and NCOs driving, in general, effect a decision to send people?"

I speak for myself not my fellow officers or the Bn ; don't assume anything about them.

Would it, hypothetically ? If they came back with your attitude, it certainly would.

Oh and just to answer the a specific point since you seem to be fixated on it : I demonstrated how a valuable leader [ i.e. an NCO ] might be tied up on a driving detail [ unnecessarily since there were other drivers available ].

Please tell me how the greater good is advanced by an NCO being duty driver or any other detail.


There is no problem with an NCO holding a 154 . A Mowag car commander needs to know how to drive one. NCOs are promoted from privates.

I laid out [ and stand by ] when I believe NCOs should be driving. They are all exceptions.

DeV
6th November 2007, 17:33
Big Al - Depends on the speed your doing, if you are over the DSOs speed limit but under the speed limit for the road, no penalty points, but charges & what ever fine/punishment/loss of 154.

If you are over the legal (civvy) speed limit - who knows.

GF - If you are involved in an RTA when in a DF vehicle you HAVE TO get the Gardai to come to the scene - even if no damage/injuries. As far as I can remember the PAs are automatically informed when you start asking for accident forms in the duty office.

Liachta Cultaca - If they have the resources & they have to be tasked with doing it.

luchi
10th November 2007, 23:28
Was away for a few days.


Big Al - Depends on the speed your doing, if you are over the DSOs speed limit but under the speed limit for the road, no penalty points, but charges & what ever fine/punishment/loss of 154.

In this case you would be charged with "Furious Driving" and Dev is 100% corrrect.


If you are over the legal (civvy) speed limit - who knows.

As above............the MP, within the DF, can only do you for furious driving. However they have 2 options in this case.
1. Present the evedence of your offence to the GS who may issue you with a fixed penalty fine.
2. Prosecute you in the civvi court in which case you get double points and fine.

A GS can do you like any other civvi. Also the GS could do that MP for stopping on the motorway and using that bay


GF - If you are involved in an RTA when in a DF vehicle you HAVE TO get the Gardai to come to the scene - even if no damage/injuries. As far as I can remember the PAs are automatically informed when you start asking for accident forms in the duty office.

Not exactly but basically correct.


Liachta Cultaca - If they have the resources & they have to be tasked with doing it.

They are tasked with doing it and have been for the past 2 years.


Well I think I've clarified my opinion in several posts in this thread. I've also demonstrated how to prove I am right by telephoning and asking people about things.

Really?
You made a u-turn twice
to paraphrase-
NCOs should not be driving - except if its their job - but then they should not have that job.
I will got back and quote if you like.


As to your snide question
"Did your attitude (as displayed above, which I assume is the attitude of your fellow unit officers) towards the unit and NCOs driving, in general, effect a decision to send people?"

I speak for myself not my fellow officers or the Bn ; don't assume anything about them. Would it, hypothetically ? If they came back with your attitude, it certainly would.

Oh and just to answer the a specific point since you seem to be fixated on it : I demonstrated how a valuable leader [ i.e. an NCO ] might be tied up on a driving detail [ unnecessarily since there were other drivers available ].


Maybe I should not make assumptions but the fact is there have been a number of courses over the years availed of by most units but not yours. This to me implies that the concensus in your unit is that there is no need to send people on driving courses. There was nothing snide about the question. Its straight forward. Why have your unit never availed of the courses?
Is it because they think that all tpt personnel are prema donnas (as you have stated is your opinion) or they see their own personnel as too valueable?

So what attidue are you refering to?

I have said above from an instructor point of view I, and any other instructor would be glad to teach a full class regardless of the unit they come from.
I also said that there are courses comming up and, as Dev pointed out, you couold get people on the courses.
I believe when working with other units the only attidude I have ever portraied was one of courtasy and co-operation.
I would challange any one on this board to show me when I was otherwise.

Since I am not one of the Mgt, i.e. an officer as you are, I cannot make make decisions but only give information and express my opinion.
(Which I have already been repremanded for)

You have said there is a prema-donna attitude yet you also said yo unever worked with the S&T or the LSB Tpt. So I ask again what do you base this on?




Please tell me how the greater good is advanced by an NCO being duty driver or any other detail.

Generally they are not duty drivers. But if they are it is a means to an end.
After your NCO completes Driving course he does a few duties, then does the MT instructors course. Low and behold you never need to talk to those "prema donnas" in tpt again.
However if you don't need the drivers to begin with then there is no need to have your NCOs to do that job, is there?


There is no problem with an NCO holding a 154 . A Mowag car commander needs to know how to drive one. NCOs are promoted from privates.

I laid out [ and stand by ] when I believe NCOs should be driving. They are all exceptions.

The I/C of a convoy is an officer - no driving experience required
The I/C of a vehicle can be anyone and again no driving experience required.

On the other hand there is more to driving than holding a 154. Generally the NCOs are experienced and heve advanced driving training that the pte driver does not have.
If you are intending to go off-road I would recomend either a female or an NCO driver if you want to maximise you safety.

trellheim
11th November 2007, 13:39
Are you happy with that rant ?

What I can pick up is that you're not happy to be regarded as "prima-donnas". That sounds like a good start. Now back it up by actions. [ such as posting around internally in the RDF what are the course start dates etc ]

Checked again today; no word from anyone regarding courses.

When was the last time an Inf RDF lad/lass qualified as an MT instructor ?


And I am worried re your last para [ and I am sure others lurking are as well ] stating that you should have an NCO or female for offroading.

I would advise being very very careful - not for me [ not my area ] but where that discussion can lead within the DF

Goldie fish
11th November 2007, 14:30
I too am wondering where your "female or NCO" comment comes from.

Please elaborate in as concise a manner as possible. I don't have the time to wade through a long winded rant.

DeV
11th November 2007, 18:04
Maybe I should not make assumptions but the fact is there have been a number of courses over the years availed of by most units but not yours. This to me implies that the concensus in your unit is that there is no need to send people on driving courses. Why have your unit never availed of the courses?

I fairness luchi for a number of courses in the past you had to have a civvy truck licence in order to get a place on the course for a restricted 154 (nissan). I know someone (who has since transferred brigades) who did this course. This obviously restricted the potential number of applicants. Also the notification of courses has greatly improved since the reorg.

Also (not sure about treillheim's former unit (pre reorg) but we had cadre drivers & I never remember there being any problem hiring transport. But Cadre numbers have been cut, drivers are not being replaced and the budget for hire of transport has been cut.

Also I did see treillheim's good point of an NCO being stuck as duty driver when he should be on the ground with the troops, it wasn't something I had thought of. Having said that training should also have priority, I've been on camps in the last few years, where NCO numbers were low (nothing has changed there), what happened with regard to duties? The officers did guard to allow the NCOs to train the troops. Should this situation occur I'd ask for the Coy Comdr to have a quiet word with the Camp Comdt / CO.

luchi
11th November 2007, 23:54
Are you happy with that rant ?

What I can pick up is that you're not happy to be regarded as "prima-donnas". That sounds like a good start. Now back it up by actions. [ such as posting around internally in the RDF what are the course start dates etc ]

Checked again today; no word from anyone regarding courses.


Why do I have to keep saying this.
Since we have been given the date of a Mod 3 conversion course specifically for inf I have to assume that the dates were posted and applicants already accepted. I haven't a clue why they are not. The dates I would have thought would have been published somewhere.
But as you know I am not the organ grinder.


When was the last time an Inf RDF lad/lass qualified as an MT instructor ?

I don't know about Inf

But FAR has 1 qualified last Sept. I don't know if 65th had anyone on that course. Its run by TVMS.

BUt the course now requires 5 weeks full time so I can't see any more RDF instructors for a long time.


And I am worried re your last para [ and I am sure others lurking are as well ] stating that you should have an NCO or female for offroading.

I would advise being very very careful - not for me [ not my area ] but where that discussion can lead within the DF


I too am wondering where your "female or NCO" comment comes from.

Please elaborate in as concise a manner as possible. I don't have the time to wade through a long winded rant.

Lurkers will be disapointed. Kermit got it. There has been many surveys / tests done on both army and civvi drivers. Most recently publisher was a british survey published some months ago in the Sunday Times.

Top of the class are Females. Male drivers tend to improve with age/ maturity.
I refer to NCOs only because with in tpt you would normally be driving a number of years before you become an NCO and hence have more experience and be more mature than the Pte driver. This of course only applies to RDF and more spacifically tpt.
Due to the recent conversion courses you now have NCO with little off road experience beyond the taught syllabus but they are mature.


I fairness luchi for a number of courses in the past you had to have a civvy truck licence in order to get a place on the course for a restricted 154 (nissan). I know someone (who has since transferred brigades) who did this course. This obviously restricted the potential number of applicants. Also the notification of courses has greatly improved since the reorg.

I agree but treillheim sait he has C and D cat people. So is it not fair of me to say the his unit considers their efforts better spent else where. Is this not what treillheim keeps saying? If they are better utillised else where then he can't blame tpt for not training them, can he?


Also I did see treillheim's good point of an NCO being stuck as duty driver when he should be on the ground with the troops, it wasn't something I had thought of. Having said that training should also have priority, I've been on camps in the last few years, where NCO numbers were low (nothing has changed there), what happened with regard to duties? The officers did guard to allow the NCOs to train the troops. Should this situation occur I'd ask for the Coy Comdr to have a quiet word with the Camp Comdt / CO.
You said it yourself, your NCOs could drive you out, lock up the vehicles and do their "leadership" job. There is nothing that says that the duty driver must sit in the vehicle at all times.
Recently this very situation occured on an excercise with 65th Bn.

trellheim
12th November 2007, 00:48
To answer in sequence :

Why do I have to keep saying this.
Since we have been given the date of a Mod 3 conversion course specifically for inf I have to assume that the dates were posted and applicants already accepted. I haven't a clue why they are not. The dates I would have thought would have been published somewhere.
But as you know I am not the organ grinder.

Mod 3 only useful if Mod 2 A or B done but nice to know.
You're >assuming< in the above. perhaps check that out on parade night ?


Is this not what treillheim keeps saying?

What I keep saying is "I need Inf drivers". that's short and snappy.

they should be ptes who are prepared to drive. otherwise no point putting them through the course.

A side argument and one you keep coming back to for some obscure reason : I get more use from NCOs who don't drive. historical fact borne out by experience by people being darted on driving details [ e.g. to a hospital, down to pub etc etc ]

You ain't going to change this fact

e.g.

You said it yourself, your NCOs could drive you out, lock up the vehicles and do their "leadership" job. There is nothing that says that the duty driver must sit in the vehicle at all times.


my job : So you're doing a patrol harbour with the Pl , detailing patrols getting the harbour going after a 10k tab in ..
All is apparently well.

Whoops ! Hang on, where's the Pl Sgt ?

Oh yes he had to go back to camp because he's duty driver and had to take Pte Bloggs to the hospital because he choked on a fishbone. [ the Pte that is, not the Sgt ]
Will he be back ? There's a 40 minute tab into the hills if he gets back to the forest gates, parks and locks up the wagon as "He's allowed to do"

Who knows ?
Tune in next time for the next exciting episode of "Shite"

luchi
12th November 2007, 10:59
Good sinario but what if Pte bloggs is driving Pl Sgt who choked on bone.

T, I agree that the duty driver should be Pte. I never disputed what should happen in an ideal world. And I did say above that you make a choice. Your choice has been to do what you consider the best use of your resources. I have made no attempt to critisise or judge that as, lets face it, bar what you say I wouldn't have a clue about you situation.

If you need 10 drivers for a tack weekend then whats wrong with having 8 NCOs and 2 Ptes. Whats wron with a PDF man being your duty driver. There are many solutions other than your pl Sgt being lost. why do you come out with this when you know better?

As you said earlier you do the training that you are mandated to do. You can't blame the tpt unit for doing likewise. But as Dev says above and what I was suggesting at the start, is a quiet word with the right guy and you might slide a couple of your lads in on the current course. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that some of us would love to see you accomodated just like the MP, FAR, 65 and 67th inf all have been.

As I said, I believe that at your level a solution can be found but you have such a big chip on your shoulder you too busy saying "not my problem" to look for one.

I keep comming back to NCO drivers because you said you have a number that could solve your driving requirements and although you say that some guys have to do the job you for some reason belittle those that do.
The side issue, Prema donnas, you still have offered no explanation of how you came to this since you admit you never worked with tpt.
Is it like in the old days when all medics were gay and MPs were just bullies?

trellheim
12th November 2007, 13:42
No. As usual you can't help twisting it to your own world view rather than reality.

GET OFF THE NCOs DRIVING THING . FFS how many times ? . In your small world view it works. If you like it behind the wheel so much then stay there, perhaps that's the reason we're having a 4 page thread while I explain stuff to you.

You have your opinion on it; well done and congratulations.

Long run it doesn't work; coming back to it will result in the same answer


If you need 10 drivers for a tack weekend then whats wrong with having 8 NCOs and 2 Ptes..

I'm down 8 NCOs. Down 8 ptes is far less worry in terms of finding replacements.


I'm fed up with "quiet words" . Like I said before, we rang <politely> and were told no go.
Quiet words are not official commitment.

I'm perfectly happy to shoot this thread with you, it's confirming every thought I had.

You aren't providing. I asked you to check something out on parade night; I'm still waiting for your answer..


As to the last; i've worked with Transport [ did I say I never did ? ] .


I can measure this thread by a simple fact; number of advertised courses by your unit internally.

Current Number : 0

luchi
12th November 2007, 15:28
No. As usual you can't help twisting it to your own world view rather than reality.

What am I twisting?
You say you want drivers. You say the people you have that the current courses are geared for you need to do their job and don't want driving.


GET OFF THE NCOs DRIVING THING . FFS how many times ? . In your small world view it works. If you like it behind the wheel so much then stay there, perhaps that's the reason we're having a 4 page thread while I explain stuff to you.

You have your opinion on it; well done and congratulations.

Long run it doesn't work; coming back to it will result in the same answer.

I did mention it works for 65th Bn, didn't I?
Maybe if you didn't have that big chip on your shoulder it could work for you too?
But then you woulld have to want it to work which everything you have said clearly indicated you feel you have better things to do..


I'm fed up with "quiet words" . Like I said before, we rang <politely> and were told no go.
Quiet words are not official commitment.

the only reply to this was post 49
So why not go up the chain, all the way to D TVMS if you have too?
Surely there is a course of action other than sit around waiting for someone to take you by the hand?


I'm perfectly happy to shoot this thread with you, it's confirming every thought I had.

You aren't providing. I asked you to check something out on parade night; I'm still waiting for your answer..

Parade night is Tuesday. So you will have to wait until then.

But what exactly is this thread confirming?



As to the last; i've worked with Transport [ did I say I never did ? ] .

From RDF Officer selection
Luchi Asked

"why do we constantly get a weeks notice for requirement for transport?".

We never get transport from you.

Have I miss read the word NEVER in that sentance?
Oh and throw all the names at me you want, I am around too long to care what you call me or the unit but I am interested to know how or why you came to that opinion.


I can measure this thread by a simple fact; number of advertised courses by your unit internally.

Current Number : 0

But is that because
a: the courses were filled by 65th and 67th Bn and so your unit was not informed?
b: someone in your unit decided that you have no-one to spare to send on the course and so there is no point posting the course?

One thing is puzzeling me. Why aren't some of your int guys doing a driving course with 2 Inf? AFIK they are running courses too.

trellheim
12th November 2007, 17:25
Surely there is a course of action other than sit around waiting for someone to take you by the hand?

There is [ I rang ], but repeating something that is known to fail is considered stupidity where I come from.


Once Again : Follow back through the posts - I said NCOs could drive when no-one else was available. NCOs don't drive when a private is available except under certain conditions. I'm happy to repeat this slowly and clearly until you understand it.


We never get transport from you.
Doesn't mean I never worked with you.

And as for the advertised courses ;

If its

A above: doesn't change the final answer , the notification still didn't get out.
B : I would have heard.

so it's back to 0 and it's still unfortunately your unit problem since my Support Coy's MindReading Section [ aka the Mekons ] are off this week.


let's take some small examples to show what I mean.

medics run courses that are well advertised to everyone

CIS do the same

luchi
12th November 2007, 21:17
There is [ I rang ], but repeating something that is known to fail is considered stupidity where I come from.

No, I mean some other Official channel. One by which someone like TVMS direct that a course be run for your unit spacifically and not necessarily by the "Prema Donna" unit!!



Once Again : Follow back through the posts - I said NCOs could drive when no-one else was available. NCOs don't drive when a private is available except under certain conditions. I'm happy to repeat this slowly and clearly until you understand it.

NO you actually said


Most of my civvy B/C/D licence holders are NCOs and I dont want or need them driving.

If an NCO is driving it means somethings wrong.

Come on if you are going to BS at least keep it consistent.
You have even given examples of why you thiink something would be wrong. So since you said most can I assume there are other non NCO civvi drivers that for some reason best known to you were not sent on one of the previous courses?


Doesn't mean I never worked with you.

I and most of us are too busy instructing or doing duties to do anything else but there you go.
And you still haven't explained where you get the "prema donna" bit from?
You worked with someone doing something else and formed this notion?


And as for the advertised courses ;

If its

A above: doesn't change the final answer , the notification still didn't get out.
B : I would have heard.

so it's back to 0 and it's still unfortunately your unit problem since my Support Coy's MindReading Section [ aka the Mekons ] are off this week.


let's take some small examples to show what I mean.

medics run courses that are well advertised to everyone

CIS do the same

All units that do courses advertise in the same way. You show no knowledge of the existance of previous courses what makes you so sure you would have heard of the next one. But I on tuesday I will still verify if notification went out. Then again I will have to ask the same guy you talked to. This should be interesting.

If someone superior to you in Bn HQ for example decides we don't need Inf drivers but need meds and sigs, why would they pass on info of courses they place at a low priority.

Although one point your chip prevents you from realising, every other unit is getting drivers, at what ever rank they can. If you have no drivers its YOUR problem. What are you going to do when you want to do that Pl attack in the Glen and your Cadre drivers are all off somewhere else doing their real job?
I know you will do what various other units do, call tpt and it will most likely be on the tuesday before you want to go out and then moan when the "prema donnas" say no.

Your problem mate!!:biggrin:

trellheim
12th November 2007, 22:11
Most of my civvy B/C/D licence holders are NCOs and I dont want or need them driving.

If an NCO is driving it means somethings wrong.


Still applies .... [ see, slowly and clearly ... ]




No, I mean some other Official channel.. Yep... I'm using telepathy now to indicate to TVMS that a course can be run. But seriously, I could write a letter . What makes you think I haven't ? Do you think I suddenly decided to pick on LSB for the fun of it ?

You aren't looking at this from my point of view [ hey, why would you ? ] Drivers are needed , they aren't being produced.


What would you do here : small case study.

Last Tuesday night : 38 recruits, 2 NCOs , 1 Officer .

Do you
A: Detail those 2 NCOs on the Driving Course [ for argument's sake let's say it's available ] or
B: Try and find two 3* who want to learn to drive, don't want to be NCOs , have no driving licence but will happily learn. [ I have lots of these people ]

You cannot do both, you must do A or B. Also assume the NCO numbers will not change over the next 12 months and the number of recruits will increase.


why would they pass on info of courses they place at a low priority.

You're right, they might not; Driving courses aren't considered low priority, though.


All units that do courses advertise in the same way. No, not correct. Check facts and revert.


If you have no drivers its YOUR problem. Correct.


I know you will do what various other units do, call tpt.... When was the last time you gave us drivers ? Thinking back, I was a 2* in Griffith Bks in 1988.

I'm nearly decided on winding this up [ my involvement in the thread ]; I'm not going to change your attitude and you're not going to change mine.

From the number of participants in it [ you and me mainly ] either no-one is interested or no-one cares.

I don't regard the LSB Tpt Coy as a source of drivers; I regard LSB as a source of driver trainers and drivers for the rare time I need a Mod 4 [ i.e a container drop ] . Any other use of LSB tpt coy is taking away from core business. <- All IMHO

luchi
13th November 2007, 00:01
Still applies .... [ see, slowly and clearly ... ]

You missed these questions


since you said most can I assume there are other non NCO civvi drivers that for some reason best known to you were not sent on one of the previous courses?



. Yep... I'm using telepathy now to indicate to TVMS that a course can be run. But seriously, I could write a letter . What makes you think I haven't ? Do you think I suddenly decided to pick on LSB for the fun of it ?

I don't know how you have tried to solve your problem. All you have shown here is you have a chip on your shoulder.
I talked to a lad in CIS tonight who told me he is being sent over to LSB in the new year to do mod 2. From what you say the CIS must be using telepathy.


You aren't looking at this from my point of view [ hey, why would you ? ] Drivers are needed , they aren't being produced.


Correction. They aren't being produced for you. Why because you never sent people over.
Why.................? Oh yes because the tpt lot are prema donnas and don't tell you about the Bde courses that ALL OTHER UNITS KNOW ABOUT.
Could this be a consperacy. A personal vendetta against you. Are all the other units trying to teach you not to be so sucessful with your recruits?


What would you do here : small case study.

Last Tuesday night : 38 recruits, 2 NCOs , 1 Officer .

Do you
A: Detail those 2 NCOs on the Driving Course [ for argument's sake let's say it's available ] or
B: Try and find two 3* who want to learn to drive, don't want to be NCOs , have no driving licence but will happily learn. [ I have lots of these people ]

You cannot do both, you must do A or B. Also assume the NCO numbers will not change over the next 12 months and the number of recruits will increase.

So whats stopping you picking 3 lads loyal to you that want to get their licence. [you did say earlier that such people existed] Getting them to agree to transfer to tpt and transfere back when their course is done?
And then getting both your NCOs with B licences to do the 10 day conversion course which is supposedly happening. That way you get 2 immediate 154s that you can use to get you out to were you want to go. Obviously not for use as duty drivers etc but purely a sa resource to move from Bks to Tac area.

So a bit of lateral thinking and you can do both. You probably could make use of your 3*s back on attachment for camp once mod 2 was complete



.... When was the last time you gave us drivers ? Thinking back, I was a 2* in Griffith Bks in 1988.

Is this where you get the "prema donna" bit from?
I was a 3* in Collins. I really don't see the point.

But an email I got says I drove both 20 and 21 Bn pers during the 90s. So someone obviously doesn't know who is driving for who.


I'm nearly decided on winding this up [ my involvement in the thread ]; I'm not going to change your attitude and you're not going to change mine.

From the number of participants in it [ you and me mainly ] either no-one is interested or no-one cares.

You would be surprised how many people are lurking. Well I am anyway.


I don't regard the LSB Tpt Coy as a source of drivers; I regard LSB as a source of driver trainers and drivers for the rare time I need a Mod 4 [ i.e a container drop ] . Any other use of LSB tpt coy is taking away from core business. <- All IMHO

so who is your source of drivers?


As stated before, my attidude is that I think there must be a way to accomadate other units need for driver training. Dedicated courses are not always possible due to the limited number of instructors but some compromise has to be possible. IMHO I believe that a compromise will only be found if constant pressure for course and to run courses is kept up.

Do you really want to change my attitude?

trellheim
13th November 2007, 11:20
Do you really want to change my attitude?

Yep. But I don't think I'm going to. To repeat [ again slowly and clearly ]

Re your question "non-civvy NCO driver" as far as I can understand your logic

the reason is no course notification ever came over here. Still your problem.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder but thanks for telling me I do. I merely point out what has happened [ and by the looks of it is set to continue ] If you don't like it that's perhaps not a reason to have a go at me;

This is no bad thing. People and units should be predictable.


So whats stopping you picking 3 lads loyal to you that want to get their licence. [you did say earlier that such people existed] Getting them to agree to transfer to tpt and transfere back when their course is done?

Awesome idea. Where's the course notification ? Earth to Tpt ? Nothing heard, out to you.

As for lurking. that's something you're definitely not doing. A lurker is someone who doesn't post but watches from the shadows.



Dedicated courses are not always possible due to the limited number of instructors but some compromise has to be possible.

An easy trap to fall into

The danger with not running "Dedicated" courses is that they get stopped on whims and resources pulled everywhere because of the adhoc nature. For example I don't think yoo can run a driving course without prior TVMS approval. And your testers must come from somewhere else.

The net effect is wasting people for 3 months on a course that doesn't finish.

And if anyone else has an opinion let them get on the thread and post.

luchi
13th November 2007, 12:30
Yep. But I don't think I'm going to. To repeat [ again slowly and clearly ]

So you want me to have the "prema donna" not my problem attitude that you clain all tpt have. What help is that to you?


Re your question "non-civvy NCO driver" as far as I can understand your logic
My question was about non-NCO civvi drivers. We flogged the other one to death at this point.


the reason is no course notification ever came over here. Still your problem.

Not our problem . We are not the ones looking for drivers you are.
And you still havn't answered why you are the only unit not notified???


I don't have a chip on my shoulder but thanks for telling me I do. I merely point out what has happened [ and by the looks of it is set to continue ] If you don't like it that's perhaps not a reason to have a go at me;

This is no bad thing. People and units should be predictable.

I woulld not suspect you of having a chip on your shoulder if you didn't give plenty of reason.
Trying to insult someone that wants to see you suceed is only one indicator.


Awesome idea. Where's the course notification ? Earth to Tpt ? Nothing heard, out to you.

There is the evidence of the chip again.

Look back over the thread and you will find the answer to your question.


As for lurking. that's something you're definitely not doing. A lurker is someone who doesn't post but watches from the shadows.

Now you are being silly. I was saying that I am surprised by the number of lurkers not that I was one. Do you never look at whos reading the thread when you are?


An easy trap to fall into

The danger with not running "Dedicated" courses is that they get stopped on whims and resources pulled everywhere because of the adhoc nature. For example I don't think yoo can run a driving course without prior TVMS approval. And your testers must come from somewhere else.

The net effect is wasting people for 3 months on a course that doesn't finish.

And if anyone else has an opinion let them get on the thread and post.

When I said "dedicated" I meant as in unit specific. As I said to date there has been 3 Bde conversion courses. You admitted you did not avail of any of them but there has also been a course run for 62 FAR, 67th Inf and 62 MP, all at their request.
So I will ask the question again more clearly without pre supposing anything.

How come your unit seems to be the one getting left behind?

trellheim
13th November 2007, 13:19
I did look in Bn HQ.

Bravo20 still not approachable re the other thing but I taunt him about it from time to time for a giggle.


I think I'm being accused of a chip on the shoulder here, something that's not true. Also that I'm descending into personal abuse. I'm not.

I'd like to clear up a misapprehension.

When I said
But I don't think I'm going to

I meant not that I won't bother to try, rather that no effort of mine would do any good.


Do I believe you are "Prima-donnas" - yes. Has anything [ on the ground ] shown me opposite ? No.

Can you change this attitude ? Sure ! Get out there and do your job.

luchi
13th November 2007, 13:48
I think I'm being accused of a chip on the shoulder here, something that's not true. Also that I'm descending into personal abuse. I'm not.

But introducing the prema donna thing and by resorting to sneering and sarcasm you did already


I'd like to clear up a misapprehension.

When I said

I meant not that I won't bother to try, rather that no effort of mine would do any good.

Why are you so different to the officers in 65th and 67th?
They got it to work.
I don't know how but they did.


Do I believe you are "Prima-donnas" - yes. Has anything [ on the ground ] shown me opposite ? No.

Can you change this attitude ? Sure ! Get out there and do your job.

You keep saying that but what has someone done to earn the title?

I, like most of our instructors am doing my job. Last year I did 7 weekends. All teaching courses. There is a limit to what anyone can do.

Incidently, last year how many weekends did you give up for other units?
How many of the CIS have you taught the mag or HK to?
I know, I know "NOT MY JOB" or "NOT MY PROBLEM" your two favorite lines.

And if you think I am doing that for the extra cash believe me when I say I could earn far more in work.

I will reiterate what I said near the beginning of this thread. At the start of every year mod 1 is run in tpt.

However if you got people on a Mod 1 course you would be without them for atleast 2 years. Thats the way TVMS want the course run. Most units don't want that and that is why the only way AFIK you can get on such a course is being in Cav or Tpt. If someone was available for 5 weeks full time each year for 2 years then maybe they could apply for the PDF course (5 weeks up to mod 2 followed by 5 weeks up to mod 3).

But other than that we are stuck doing conversions.

I believe back in sept a list of full time courses were posted in numerous places including in An Cosantor.

trellheim
13th November 2007, 14:52
How many of the CIS have you taught the mag or HK to?

A number > 0


Also that I'm descending into personal abuse Again, I'm not. When was it directed at you personally ? It's the attitude that gets me, not the people.

And again on the numbers :

Rec = 1 year, 2 * = 1 Year , Mod 2 = 1 Year , Mod 3 = 1 year. 4 years to get a truck driver ?




For last 4 years I've done 3 weeks. Most of the extras have been in-support to one unit or the other.

Well done for doing all those weekends. Believe me if we had more people doing the driver training we can cope with extra soldiers to train.

Here's a thought - if you could swap all your recruits with all my 3* - would you do it ?

You have to train them to Mod 2. I'll train the recs to 2*. If we liked it we'd keep going and do 3* & Mod 3.

daithi
13th November 2007, 16:28
I believe a pilot program to this effect took place in Limerick last year, when all recruits in the barracks trained on the same night.

It really would make sense when (as far as I know) all recruits are doing pretty much the same training anyway foot drill etc. Would solve a lot of the problems above re shortages of NCOs etc.

D.
(lurker)

luchi
14th November 2007, 13:13
And again on the numbers :

Rec = 1 year, 2 * = 1 Year , Mod 2 = 1 Year , Mod 3 = 1 year. 4 years to get a truck driver ?

In theory correct but I have to make a correction

Mod 1 is 70hrs, thats 3 weeks full time or 1 year + 2 weeks camp in RDF.
Mod 2 is 171hrs, thats 7 weeks full time or 3 years and two 2 week camps.

So by the book you would see a nissan driver in 4 years and then another 2 for a truck.

We all know this is not proctical so in real life if the guys are dedicated this can aim to shrink this to
Mod 1 - 6 weeks followed by 3 pre-tests (2 hrs per week)
Mod 2 - 1 year of regular attendance + 2 week full time for pre test and trailer work
Mod 3 - 1 year of regular attendance.

This is only an aim but it is rarely achieved for a variety of reasons.

If you go conversion you get Mod 1 in a couple of weekends, mod 2 in a week and mod 3 in a week. (assuming experienced truck drivers)


Well done for doing all those weekends. Believe me if we had more people doing the driver training we can cope with extra soldiers to train.

I didn't mention the weekends to dray prais or further sarcasm from you but mearly to state that thats what we are doing yet you say we are not doing the job. What do you think we should be doing, every instructor work every weekend?


Here's a thought - if you could swap all your recruits with all my 3* - would you do it ?

You have to train them to Mod 2. I'll train the recs to 2*. If we liked it we'd keep going and do 3* & Mod 3.

I have already stated that I believe all recruits should be trained by infantry so if it was up to me the answer would be yes.

IMHO we should be operating exactly the same as the PDF in this respect and its only the remenants of the old FCA way that stops this from happening.
(and yes I know I will get my arse kicked for that statement but its not the first time)

Re course in the new year. Its a Bde course. We are available but students are to be supplied by Bde.
As you said earlier we can only run courses that are sanctioned.

Also I was informed by "a sgt in the squadron" that a while ago they sent NCOs to your Bn to teach the mag. When completed thay asked about transfering in to your Bn. 2 of these NCOs also held 154s. Alledgedly they were told that bar the Mag course everything was covered. so no point in comming in.
Now either this guy was bluffing me, which he has no reason to do or your Bn need for both NCOs and drivers is very selective. Care to comment?


Do I believe you are "Prima-donnas" - yes.
This and telling me I have an attitude I do take personnally and have tried to see it other wise but you made it clear that you wanted it taken personnally.

trellheim
14th November 2007, 13:27
Finally I think we are starting to see a little light.

No sarcasm was intended in my last post. Apologies if there were picked up.


hat do you think we should be doing, every instructor work every weekend?

No. Not at all. Not inferred by me anyway.

My spies were out last night ... The course we are talking about I finally got word from a different Corps unit . Who say that course is only for Corps units.


Also I was informed by "a sgt in the squadron" that a while ago they sent NCOs to your Bn to teach the mag. When completed thay asked about transfering in to your Bn. 2 of these NCOs also held 154s. Alledgedly they were told that bar the Mag course everything was covered. so no point in comming in.
Now either this guy was bluffing me, which he has no reason to do or your Bn need for both NCOs and drivers is very selective. Care to comment?

It's a fair question. Suffice to say some of my own reactions involved jumping up and down and frothing at the mouth.. but that had nothing to do with me. It's a fair question though and you won't get any more answers on it from me.


AFAIK and correct me if wrong

Mod 1 = Theory
2a = from scratch
2b = with a B licence . 2 is for nissan

3=heavier stuff

4=specialized kit

6 weeks seems a little long for the numbers and my own earlier sums

luchi
14th November 2007, 13:41
My spies were out last night ... The course we are talking about I finally got word from a different Corps unit . Who say that course is only for Corps units.

Lovely....f**ing typical. And we, as I said earlier were told it is for Inf pers.
Its just fab communications isn't it!!!!!


AFAIK and correct me if wrong

Mod 1 = Theory
2a = from scratch
2b = with a B licence . 2 is for nissan

3=heavier stuff

4=specialized kit

6 weeks seems a little long for the numbers and my own earlier sums

6 weeks? In the PDF scratch to HTCV is 12 weeks assuming competent student.
I thought I did the break down previously
Mod 1 - 2 weeks
Mod 2 - 5 weeks
Mod 3 - 5 weeks
Mod 4 - 2 weeks for drops or midicoach
Mod 4 - 2 weeks coach but can only be done after midicoach
Conversion course requires mod 1 to be complete and then 1 week for each module. Only problem with this schedual is that it depends on TVMS. They keep moving the goal posts.

The Prisoner
19th November 2007, 22:11
This transport lark is very simple: The PDF/TVMS do NOT want the RDF driving or instructing period. That is the starting point, like it or not. Hence all the difficulties with transport.

As an NCO trained, tested and qualified by the TVMS please take the above as fact.

Now the only official ie approved conversion course is for Mod2 ie civil class B. There is currently no other officially approved conversion cours for D1, D, C1, C, EC1, EC etc etc. And to put the tin hat on it this course had now been suspended!

As a by the way the Tpt Coy are more that happy to run courses but they need PERMISSION, SYLLABUS and TESTERS. All outside the remit of the Unit and subject to the wims of the PDF.

luchi
29th November 2007, 10:00
This transport lark is very simple: The PDF/TVMS do NOT want the RDF driving or instructing period. That is the starting point, like it or not. Hence all the difficulties with transport.
Thats because they don't like admitting they don't do the job properly. The whole thing is a shambles.
People are issued AF154s for vehicles they actually were never tested in. I personnally know of 2 people this happened to.
People are being told they can drive vehicles that they do not hold a licence for.
People are tested an non-appropriate vehicles for the catagory of the test.
(Before you comment read rules of the road 203-207. The pre 01/01/04 have been the requirements since Nov 1999.)

As an NCO trained, tested and qualified by the TVMS please take the above as fact.
Ditto

Now the only official ie approved conversion course is for Mod2 ie civil class B. There is currently no other officially approved conversion cours for D1, D, C1, C, EC1, EC etc etc. And to put the tin hat on it this course had now been suspended!
Yes but it has been argued that since the mod 3 syllabus says test when ready a driver could be tested on day 2 of a course if s/he was good enough.

As a by the way the Tpt Coy are more that happy to run courses but they need PERMISSION, SYLLABUS and TESTERS. All outside the remit of the Unit and subject to the wims of the PDF.
The only problem is the testers. Syllabus is there, although its a joke and permission to drive and permission to run a course is a paper excercise.

GodBlessS&T
9th December 2007, 14:19
well lads, all very interesting and something i'm very familiar with myself. As a tpt nco outside of dublin, i'm very familiar with 'other' units trying to get personnel trained on driving courses, the long and the short of it is that it doesn't happen, where i'm based anyway.
what's the story with tpt integration, it got of to a good start for our lads, but seems to have come to a complete halt with no explanation available... most of our people are now going to RTU themselves..... anyone think it would be worth sticking with....?

luchi
11th December 2007, 00:32
Well our lads are progressing.

Since completing the drops crse they have been clocking up their driving hours.
Recently they all did a recovery crse and are doing various Bde duties.
Also they all did the midi-coach as an intro to the coach which they will all be doing in the new year.

luchi
9th January 2008, 23:39
So is anyone actually on the next EBde driving crse?

Since it is on shortly I trust ALL units / sub-units are fully aware of the details.

And before anyone says "this is no good for us" we ( the prema-donnas in Tpt Coy 62RLSB) were told that this crse is EXACTLY what the majority of Infantry coys have requested. So if you disagree you know were to voice your opinion.

Bam Bam
9th January 2008, 23:47
Driving course?

luchi
10th January 2008, 13:49
Alternatly ask Dev.

He sent me a PM over the Christmas saying that he heard something.

Anyway point to note is that back in October EBde asked for instructors to be made available to do a conversion crse. Originally it was our understanding that the crse was to be the same as previous ones since there is no syllibus for any other. However on Tuesday last EBde in formed us that it was to be a minibus crse because THAT IS WHAT THE INF NEED since a number of Inf units have as their unit tpt a minibus.

TD I didn't know you were one of us Prima-donnas???????????????

Truck Driver
10th January 2008, 14:01
TD I didn't know you were one of us Prima-donnas???????????????

You wouldn't know what I'd know, old chap.... :biggrin:

fred the red
10th January 2008, 18:49
I asked our pdf Q last nite was there any word of driving coarses he is well on the ball and he said there wasnt anything so it obviously hasnt been made available to the 65th.:frown:

beenthere
10th January 2008, 21:36
I asked our pdf Q last nite was there any word of driving coarses he is well on the ball and he said there wasnt anything so it obviously hasnt been made available to the 65th.:frown:

Yes it has, Ask again.

luchi
10th January 2008, 23:37
I asked our pdf Q last nite was there any word of driving coarses he is well on the ball and he said there wasnt anything so it obviously hasnt been made available to the 65th.:frown:

In fact your lot (65th) knew back in November that this was comming because they are pally with us prema-donnas!!!! but as I said there was some confusion as to the level of the crse.

Bravo20
11th January 2008, 08:37
Details were released by Brigade on Wednesday night with nominations to be received by next Tuesday.

The Prisoner
16th January 2008, 16:38
But the big question is:

Will there be a test on the last day?

luchi
16th January 2008, 17:04
How can there be when there is no approved syllabus for a minibus only course?

On the other hand a certain Female NCO did get a mod 3 154 restricted to minibus, so anything is possible!!!!

luchi
20th January 2008, 22:56
Acccording to the RDFRA news letter if yo uhold a minibus, trucketc licence all you need to do to get the AF154 for that vehicle is
a. Get a letter from your employer saying you are driving "in the course of your normal employment"
b. undergo a half days familiarisation course.
c. Be assessed by the DF
D. Certify you have no penalty points.

So you would think there would be no more need for conversion courses..........wouldn't you?

The Prisoner
20th January 2008, 23:40
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha.

Still believe in Santa?

luchi
21st January 2008, 11:55
Its there in black and white!!!!

Well Green and a kind of yellow anyway.

According to some there are loads of qualified and professional drivers in the RDF that are just waiting to do their bit for the nation.

Surely every unit should have a umber of applicants by now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Prisoner
24th January 2008, 21:03
What's the story regarding hours and tacographs. Can you drive all week and then turn around and drive for the DF?

luchi
24th January 2008, 22:30
Now that probably depends on who you ask.

Military tpt is exempt from the tacho regs.
So are emergency services, certain volentary organisations ete..................

However you are well aware that all HGV drivers are subject to the road traffic act. There are few exceptions but going training with the RDF is not one!!

Max 5.5 hrs contineous (Driving without 30min break at comfort stop)
Max of 11hrs driving in 24hrs
Max of 56hrs driving in 7days
Max of 90hrs driving in 14days

The 7 days is counted from 00.00 Mon to 23.59 the following Sun

If you are paid to drive for the DF you are legally obliged to have your employer count those hours into your 14 day tacho hours.

Your employer, if they know you may have been driving, are obliged to occasionally check what you tell them is correct and make record of said check.

I would love to know who in the DF is designated to record and convey this information if asked.

Truck Driver
25th January 2008, 07:55
Its there in black and white!!!!

Well Green and a kind of yellow anyway.

Will believe it when I see it in an official Admin Instr/DFR XXX, rather than on the
RDFRA newsletter

yellow oscar
26th January 2008, 18:04
Luchi did all 12 drivers show up on Thur for the Minibus Driving week

luchi
28th January 2008, 23:39
Luchi did all 12 drivers show up on Thur for the Minibus Driving week

I don't know.

When I heard the what a total fcuk up was made of organising the course I was thankfully my boss in my real job cancelled my time off.

I am sure I will get full details of how it went (or didn't for that matter) in the mess on tuesday night.

luchi
7th February 2008, 11:41
But the big question is:

Will there be a test on the last day?

I believe a test has been arranged.

I say a syllabus for this course - mod 3A. Looks very intensive -

120 hours of lectures
125 hours of driving.

There are two amazing things about this.
First its a 1 week course 240 hours in 1 week is good going.
Secondly there is off road driving.......................in a minibus that is not an off road vehicle???

The Prisoner
7th February 2008, 14:44
Very simple.

Pulling into a filling station for coffee is off road driving ie you've driven off the road.

Now the hours are a bit more difficult!

DeV
8th February 2008, 19:08
The TIs spell out that doing off road driving on 1 of 2 names areas is required.

luchi
8th February 2008, 23:54
The TIs spell out that doing off road driving on 1 of 2 names areas is required.

Thats correct but the mini-bus is not an off road vehicle. It is there for impossible to complete this syllabys and be tested!!!!!!!

DeV
9th February 2008, 12:54
Thats correct but the mini-bus is not an off road vehicle. It is there for impossible to complete this syllabys and be tested!!!!!!!

Army logic!

luchi
9th February 2008, 16:33
I think I've figured it out.


Very simple.

Pulling into a filling station for coffee is off road driving ie you've driven off the road.

Now the hours are a bit more difficult!

Then you go to one of the prescribed areas and are shown exactly where not to drive while drinking the coffee to fill in the hours :biggrin:


Army logic!

Army laziness more like it. Someone was told to come up with a sylibus. They took the original. Changed the vehicle type, deleted a few references, chanced the TVMS number and reprinted it.

luchi
5th April 2008, 14:27
Originally Posted by trellheim
And I ask again. Have the RDFRA announcements been clarified yet ? i.e. that people holding licences only need a minor conversion course ?

Trell this was forwarded to me by PM as I don't seem to have access to the thread that it was posted on.

What clarification are you looking for? I thought the announcement was pretty clear.
Professional drivers can have their licence assesses and a 154 issued.

Other drivers have the availability of doing the Bde conversion courses.

Although we all know about the Bde courses this new avenue for the professional drivers it a bit of a mistery. The big question is who will be doing the assessment? To date no one that we know in a position to answer that question has been able to give a direct answer. The closest we got was "Assessments will be arranged if someone meats the criteria".
Our unit has a Dublin Bus driver that does not meet the criteria because his licence is restricted to automatics. So he has to do the full course.

But before we embark on this road the question of "do any professional drivers really want to hold a 154?"

luchi
15th April 2008, 16:46
So has anyone here applied or heard of anyone, outside 62RLSB, applying for recognition of their driving licence on grounds of being a professional driver?

luchi
6th October 2008, 22:19
So has anyone here applied or heard of anyone, outside 62RLSB, applying for recognition of their driving licence on grounds of being a professional driver?
As some months have passed since this was discussed I have to ask the above question again.

I recall from the RDFRA BADC deligates from infantry units inthe west saying that they had a number of truck (rigid and artic) and bus drivers in their be willing to drive if only they could get the 154.

So what has happened?

Do all the inf units now have truck and bus drivers?

or is this turning into another RDF fairy tale?

luchi
9th October 2008, 15:53
Do I take it from the lack of replies that the answer is none.

Did RDFRA waste its time on this?

Truck Driver
9th October 2008, 16:28
Do I take it from the lack of replies that the answer is none.

Did RDFRA waste its time on this?

I said as much at the time.....

Well, what I actually said was....


Will believe it when I see it in an official Admin Instr/DFR XXX, rather than on the
RDFRA newsletter

luchi
9th October 2008, 16:41
I said as much at the time.....

Well, what I actually said was....

What you said is not really relevant.

The question is did any one apply.

Acording to some on this board there were truck drivers in their unit that were willing to go and get 154s.

Did they apply or is this another case of RDF members crying for something and then after some people have worked very hard to get some sort of agreement al the cryers vanish?

Docman
9th October 2008, 19:57
Did they apply or is this another case of RDF members crying for something and then after some people have worked very hard to get some sort of agreement al the cryers vanish?

Well my experience is that people do apply but every excuse is used to prevent them from doing it. By the time all the red tape is got through, it is a case of "sorry, too late, closing date is gone". Another one is "Did you not apply for the driving course last month"....."What Course???"

It has happened to several people & units I know. Don't know the details or who is causing it but it is happening.

luchi
9th October 2008, 20:53
Thats courses Docman.

Look back at RDFRA news letters and you will see what I said in post 110.

There should be no specific application time, its a when needed or when the person is available type of thing.

trellheim
10th October 2008, 08:50
so you can arrange testing this Sunday, just apply to RLSB TPT Coy today ?

luchi
10th October 2008, 16:27
so you can arrange testing this Sunday, just apply to RLSB TPT Coy today ?
Isn;t that what RDFRA newsletter said
but
Now be serious,
You know very well those that do the testing for us only test Mon to Friday. Written tests in the morning and practicals in the afternoon.

No tests can be started before 10.30 any day or after 15.30 Mon, Tues and Thurs or 11.30 on Wed or Fridays.
As long as yuo can fit in to these times a test could normally be arranged within 6 months

Steyr Fan
10th October 2008, 18:52
You know very well those that do the testing for us only test Mon to Friday. Written tests in the morning and practicals in the afternoon.

No tests can be started before 10.30 any day or after 15.30 Mon, Tues and Thurs or 11.30 on Wed or Fridays.
As long as yuo can fit in to these times a test could normally be arranged within 6 months


So RDF members will have to take a day off work, and clock up another manday!!!!

Earlier on this year there was a massive drive to get bods on a training weekend & an exercise weekend, St Pats parade, Easter Sunday + 2 training days. All these days were paid days. Now don't get me wrong. The money is great, but the problem was that some of those on Integrated training who went on annual camp reached the max mandays before the end of camp.

There are many in the RDF who would do as much work and as many days as are available, but cannot due to the limit of mandays.

And with the credit crunch, slowdown in the economy, and the budget on Tue, don't be surprised if the max mandays is reduced to cut costs. As Willie said during the week, Defence is an area that will need to tighten up.

So Luchi, why bother going to work at all with those testing hours? Even civvie testers work longer hours than that. Maybe it's time for a shake up?

luchi
11th October 2008, 09:01
So RDF members will have to take a day off work, and clock up another manday!!!!

Earlier on this year there was a massive drive to get bods on a training weekend & an exercise weekend, St Pats parade, Easter Sunday + 2 training days. All these days were paid days. Now don't get me wrong. The money is great, but the problem was that some of those on Integrated training who went on annual camp reached the max mandays before the end of camp.

There are many in the RDF who would do as much work and as many days as are available, but cannot due to the limit of mandays.

And with the credit crunch, slowdown in the economy, and the budget on Tue, don't be surprised if the max mandays is reduced to cut costs. As Willie said during the week, Defence is an area that will need to tighten up.

So Luchi, why bother going to work at all with those testing hours? Even civvie testers work longer hours than that. Maybe it's time for a shake up?
Tut, Tut, Tut.

RDF and FCA have been calling for years for the DF to recognise civvi qualifications and I don't just mean driving licences.
According to the news letter the DF/DoD was or is intending to bite the bullet and come up with an assessment scheme that would see all professional drivers with HGV and LPSV have a 145 in a day.

According to some there are about 200 people with these licences in the RDF. How many have applied?
AFAIK the answer is 3. Where are the other 197?
And don't use the "we were never informed" as it was in the news letter that everyone has access to.

Those with car licences can do a 1 week conversion. Now I know that places on this course are limited but out side Dublin were they even run?

There is no need to shake up the test availability if there is no one waiting to be tested!

BTW Its not so long ago that we (FCA) had to take a day off work unpaid to get tested. If mandays are cut then we will probably have to go back to this.

As I said previously were are all the guys that have been crying for years that they should be allowed drive?????????????

Steyr Fan
11th October 2008, 11:00
Last year, some of our lads were told by the Cadre CQ to report at 0900hrs on a particular Sat to a certain Dublin barracks to start a driving course. The barracks was not their barracks; it was the other one.

They did; some had travelled a long distance (2hours), only to be asked 'what are yous doin here? We know nothin about yous? go home.'

Another time, we had lads (& a lassie as well) on a weeks driving course. All went well until the last day of the course. The assigned tester reported sick that day. Guess what? No test. & guess what else? The were told to report a few weeks later to do the test (On a Thursday). They did, but the tester on that day found a problem with the course as it was run which his unit ran (something to do with papaerwork - no one ever found out what was wrong). Guess what? No test. Guess what else - they were not tested, and have been told they will have to do the course again.

Now I'm not sayin that any one individual or unit or corps is at fault. I just don't know. But there can be no doubt as to why there is so much cynicism.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

DeV
11th October 2008, 12:29
Last year, some of our lads were told by the Cadre CQ to report at 0900hrs on a particular Sat to a certain Dublin barracks to start a driving course. The barracks was not their barracks; it was the other one.

They did; some had travelled a long distance (2hours), only to be asked 'what are yous doin here? We know nothin about yous? go home.'


Steyr Fan, if it is the course I'm thinking of there were around 20 places on the course and 30+ people turned up. Brigade decides who gets the places!

trellheim
11th October 2008, 12:41
Expect some stock "it's not our fault" answer soon from our transport colleagues.

luchi
11th October 2008, 15:38
Expect some stock "it's not our fault" answer soon from our transport colleagues.
Now now trell.

THe stock answer only works when it actually is our fault but the other guy can't prove it. When it is definitely not our fault we usually make sure to blame the other guy.

But I've heard it all before.

If it was the course that Dev has mentioned, as Dev said, it was a Bde course.
There was a PDF sgt from Bde in charge of who got to stay. People were turned away for all sorts of reasons ranging from no paperwork to not holding a licence (which is the basic requirement for the crse.)
I believe acceptance was also done on the basis of available vehicles. In other words if your unit had a vehicle you were in.
A certain unit fron CBB actually substituted 2 guys at the last moment. The said sgt was going to turn them away too only it was pointed out that their unit was supplying 2 vehicles but only 2 students. If the they were not the on the course then neither were the vehicles. Amazingly the sgt changed his mind.

BTW there was a conversion course during the summer. Organised and run by our unit specifically for the infantry unit in CBB. Thats your unit trell isn't it. Not specifically your sub unit but surely your own unit did ask you to supply one or two 3*s for training?????
There was supposed to be 8 students but only 4 turned up. They were tested. They were supposed to do a second week for Mini-bus but they needed to keep the time to go on FTT with their own unit. Those guys are getting the chance to complete to minibus in Oct. Test date is already arranged.

THere was also a test for Mod 1. THere was supposed to be 20 bods doing the test but only 3 were available so the test got canceled!!!.See how difficult it is to arrange a test next time.

Traumagod
11th October 2008, 15:47
As some months have passed since this was discussed I have to ask the above question again.

I recall from the RDFRA BADC deligates from infantry units inthe west saying that they had a number of truck (rigid and artic) and bus drivers in their be willing to drive if only they could get the 154.

So what has happened?

Do all the inf units now have truck and bus drivers?

or is this turning into another RDF fairy tale?

Hi Luchi,in response to your question, our unit in the west bde ran a course this year for personnel with civilian dvrs licences. The prereq was that they held a civvy D licence. In march they sat the Nissan and tailer licence (all 29 passed) and during the summer the successfully passed the transit course These guys were Infantry, medics PA's engineers and arty. The plan as far as I know was to bring them up to TCV level but that may have changed. After all we don't want to put ourselves out of a job!:biggrin:

luchi
11th October 2008, 16:32
Hi Luchi,in response to your question, our unit in the west bde ran a course this year for personnel with civilian dvrs licences. The prereq was that they held a civvy D licence. In march they sat the Nissan and tailer licence (all 29 passed) and during the summer the successfully passed the transit course These guys were Infantry, medics PA's engineers and arty.

Well its good to see that the courses are being run but its still not the promised 30mins familiarisation followed by assessment that was promised by above.


The plan as far as I know was to bring them up to TCV level but that may have changed. After all we don't want to put ourselves out of a job!:biggrin:

That will never happen. Even with the drivers that are being turned out there is still a high demand for our services. Let alone the requirement to up skill Tpt drivers to 6x6, DROPS and Coach.

Steyr Fan
12th October 2008, 02:41
[QUOTE=luchi;222344) Even with the drivers that are being turned out there is still a high demand for our services.[/QUOTE]

It is total and absolute bullshite the crap that is being spouted that this unit didn't sent students when they should have, or that that unit sent students when they shouldn't have. It is PDF bullshite excuse after PDF bullshite excuse.

Lerts face facts - the Cadre run the RDF. They decicde who goes on what course, where & when. So if there is misinformation, or lies being spread (as there is & are), then it is down to the Cadre (PDF that is) that is at the root of the problem.

And anyone who thinks otherwise is only fooling themselves. And I have direct experiende of this from the past summer. So if you are not IN with the cadre, then you're just not in.

trellheim
12th October 2008, 16:51
Yes well isn't that a balanced and fair appraisal :rolleyes:


In other news, didn't I see THIS guy _http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20081011/tod-blind-belgian-drives-at-192-miles-pe-7f81b96.html

get a 154 recently ?

Barry
12th October 2008, 16:58
You can't blame your unit's internal politics on the Tpt Coy. They run the courses they're told to. Disagree on the cadre point btw, it isn't the case in every unit.

Steyr Fan
12th October 2008, 19:23
To true Barry, tpt do what they are told to do.

On the cadre issue, I could go on but will not. There are some for whom I haved the height of respect, but unfortunately, the cadre is not any one person. Look it up on wikipedia - "a small core of committed and experienced people who are capable of providing leadership..... and is the backbone of an organisation...[/

As I said, I will not go on. I will just move on, and keep moving.

Docman
12th October 2008, 20:22
You can't blame your unit's internal politics on the Tpt Coy. They run the courses they're told to. Disagree on the cadre point btw, it isn't the case in every unit.

Well, going off thread but my experience - there are PDF, PDF Cadre, and RDF. All are very different organisations with different abilities, goals and resources. Don't mix them up or think that one is anything like the other.

riflemangundy
12th October 2008, 20:35
Can someone tell me this very simply,,,(Hvaent time to go back over posts)
Do you need a civvie license before doing a driving course?? YES or NO

Traumagod
12th October 2008, 20:46
Can someone tell me this very simply,,,(Hvaent time to go back over posts)
Do you need a civvie license before doing a driving course?? YES or NO

If a member of a Tpt coy - No.
If not - Yes, Minimum cat. D and be selected to do the driving course.

Truck Driver
12th October 2008, 20:47
Can someone tell me this very simply,,,(Hvaent time to go back over posts)
Do you need a civvie license before doing a driving course?? YES or NO

If doing the full course - no. But would probably have to transfer to a Tpt unit to do this,
due to the time involved to qualify from scratch

If doing the conversion/assessment course - yes - a civvy licence in the category for the
military AF154 being sought, i.e; a FULL B licence to do the Nissan conversion course.

luchi
13th October 2008, 13:52
If a member of a Tpt coy - No.
If not - Yes, Minimum cat. D and be selected to do the driving course.


If doing the full course - no. But would probably have to transfer to a Tpt unit to do this,
due to the time involved to qualify from scratch

If doing the conversion/assessment course - yes - a civvy licence in the category for the
military AF154 being sought, i.e; a FULL B licence to do the Nissan conversion course.

Tee Hee, Hee, Hee..........................Some here know that I've covered this extensively. Look for a thread in the general board titled AF154.

Don't you love the DF.
The answer to the question is YES.
If you are underinstruction you, according to the Road Traffic Act, MUST have a licence (Provisional or Full) for the category of vehicle you are driving.
According to DSOs you MUUST obey the road traffic act.

However if in Tpt and Cav the DF have choosen to ignore the RTA and the DSO in this respect by

Allowing drivers underinstruction to drive without requiring the correct licence
Issuing an AF154 for the midi-coach and permitting pers, both PDF and RDF to drive said coach solo without ever meeting the standard required by the road traffic act.If you ask a member of the traffic corps they will tell you its up to you. The chance of a member of the GS asking for a civvi licence is remote. It would probably only occur in an accident causing death.

Oh yeah and under the DFA there is an exemption for military personnel requiring a licence. Sadly this refers to the 1933 RTA which was repealed and so only applies to DF personnel driving on AF154s issued pre 1961.

DeV
13th October 2008, 14:14
It is total and absolute bullshite the crap that is being spouted that this unit didn't sent students when they should have, or that that unit sent students when they shouldn't have. It is PDF bullshite excuse after PDF bullshite excuse.

Lerts face facts - the Cadre run the RDF. They decicde who goes on what course, where & when. So if there is misinformation, or lies being spread (as there is & are), then it is down to the Cadre (PDF that is) that is at the root of the problem.

And anyone who thinks otherwise is only fooling themselves. And I have direct experiende of this from the past summer. So if you are not IN with the cadre, then you're just not in.

You probably don't deal with A & T documents on a regular basis then! Unless it is a course internal unit the only dealing cadre should have with it is making sure the Coy commander submits documents on time.

The way it works is you apply to Coy Commander, Coy Commander has to recommend you and submit to Bn Commander for recommendation. Bn Commander then recommends them to Brigade. Brigade then return a list of personnel selected.

While it may be the case that cadre make sure a lot of these things are done & may be the ones who actually submit the forms, it is actually the job of the Coy Commander. The only cadre staff that should have any dealings with it are the Bn Commander and possibly Bn Ord Room Sgt.

luchi
13th October 2008, 16:52
In fairness Dev you must be able to see were Styre Fan is comming from.

Notification of course arrives to cadre - they give heads up to their pals - palls apply and unit commander approves - then the great unwashed are informed - Unit commannder having agreed who is going can only tell any other interested party maybe next time.

On the other side. As you know the PDF sgt tried to put the mockers on the crse in general in a number of ways and was told where to get off. I don't believe that he has anything to do with further bde tpt courses.

The last course that was run was sprang on us. We had put in for a weeks FTT and thought we were covering Mod2-3 with our own. 6 people from other units arrived for conversion courses. Of course we were prepared........................not............... ..........but we managed. Slopy start but a good result at the end of the week,

I am reliably informed that those that completed mod 2 will be doing mod 3A if they are available in Oct but that, due to a requirement to up skill tpt personnel, no conversion courses will be run next year.

trellheim
13th October 2008, 17:13
no notification received apart from that. I will investigate.

Steyr Fan
13th October 2008, 19:20
[QUOTE=DeV;222509]You probably don't deal with A & T documents on a regular basis then! Unless it is a course internal unit the only dealing cadre should have with it is making sure the Coy commander submits documents on time.QUOTE]

I have had enough A & T documentary bull over the past 6 months to last me a life time. And I have been dealing with that end of things for a good many years.

luchi
13th October 2008, 21:29
no notification received apart from that. I will investigate.
Now who's using "stock answers"????????:biggrin:

Goldie fish
14th October 2008, 03:39
most circular thread ever

luchi
4th November 2008, 00:03
most circular thread ever

Explains why I hum the wheels on the bus as I read it.

Now to go off in another related direction.

Good to see the WBde making use of the 6x6. Did many complete the course?

EBde would have loved to do it but couldn't find the syllabus.

According to some there is no syllabys but I actually have a copy so there must be!!!!!!

greyfox
15th November 2008, 18:44
just wondering could any one point me in the direction of were any limitations on the number passengers in a vehicle are contained especially nissans , i was under the impression that once the passenger has a seatbelt it is ok , where said information is contained so i can obtain copy would be of help .

DeV
15th November 2008, 20:26
just wondering could any one point me in the direction of were any limitations on the number passengers in a vehicle are contained especially nissans , i was under the impression that once the passenger has a seatbelt it is ok , where said information is contained so i can obtain copy would be of help .

As per Road Traffic Acts - all passenger (plus driver) must have a seat & belt

hptmurphy
15th November 2008, 21:13
As per Road Traffic Acts - all passenger (plus driver) must have a seat & belt

there used to be an exemption from DF people wearing seat belts, has this changed?

greyfox
15th November 2008, 21:28
one per seat belt is all ways how i seen it too, however i was recently challenged on the fact of having a passenger in the singar operators seat ,

DeV
15th November 2008, 21:44
Older Nissan (think its model is 260 or something like that) = 7 including driver
Newer Nissan (ie GR) = 6 including driver (if radio operator seat is fitted)


there used to be an exemption from DF people wearing seat belts, has this changed?

No but it is encouraged!

Traumagod
16th November 2008, 15:00
Explains why I hum the wheels on the bus as I read it.

Now to go off in another related direction.

Good to see the WBde making use of the 6x6. Did many complete the course?

EBde would have loved to do it but couldn't find the syllabus.

According to some there is no syllabys but I actually have a copy so there must be!!!!!!


All the conversion pers. completed successfully glad to say. Still trying to get my hands on the syllabus as it was guarded like no ones business!:biggrin: Will you PM me re a question?

hptmurphy
16th November 2008, 15:13
No but it is encouraged

I knew I wasn't losing my mind , thanks for the clarification..

It was something often quoted while mounted as escort but I always encouraged the use of seat belts when not involved in security duties, where seatbelts were available

Safety first , but then again if in older vehicles if seatbelts are not fitted how is a driver going to defend themselves?

luchi
17th November 2008, 16:08
Road Traffic Act provides exemptions for emergency services personnel, DF and Garda
in the course of their duty

DSOs states all military drivers are REQUIRED to wear seat belts when in a DF vehicle.
Will clarify the precise wording when I have my DSO to hand - unlike my colleague,
I don't know it off by heart, word for word, from front to back :smile:

[MOD: Uncalled for sarcasm and subsequent posts removed.]


Anyway you have it pretty much right but its noty in the DSO. Its part of the DF H&S policy and an SO sent out some years ago, that seat belts must be worn were fitted and that if a vehicle should have a seat belt, such as a nissan, then passenger can only be carried if the belt is working.
Were the DF regs and the RTA (actuall RTCUV) differ is that for the DF the onus is on the driver to ensure that passengers only sit in an approved seat. i.e. one with a seat belt. The only exemption to this is the side facing RO seat in the old nissans.
The legislation allows for non wearing of belts on operational duties. This is clarified in the H&S as when on armed security duties where the wearing of the belt may be hampered. There is an SO from D COS on the subject.

hptmurphy
18th November 2008, 23:36
Were the DF regs and the RTA (actuall RTCUV) differ is that for the DF the onus is on the driver to ensure that passengers only sit in an approved seat. i.e. one with a seat belt. The only exemption to this is the side facing RO seat in the old nissans.
The legislation allows for non wearing of belts on operational duties. This is clarified in the H&S as when on armed security duties where the wearing of the belt may be hampered. There is an SO from D COS on the subject

I think that about clarifies it and seems to be the most educated opinion I've seen

Thanks for that.

Truck Driver
20th November 2008, 17:19
As Luchi said, this isn't in the DSOs.

In fact the phrase "seat belt" crops up a total of ZERO times in the DSOs !!!

This may be remedied, however, with the impending new edition....

luchi
20th November 2008, 22:56
The new edition is due out any day now.

I have been told that the biggest changes is that there is reference to driver hours. We will just have to wait on that one.

DeV
21st November 2008, 09:28
The road safety week document mentioned seat belts!

Truck Driver
21st November 2008, 11:12
The new edition is due out any day now.

I have been told that the biggest changes is that there is reference to driver hours. We will just have to wait on that one.

As has been oft discussed at this stage :smile: , this could have a significant bearing
on the ability of the RDF to function on training weekends, overnights, APWTs, etc....

luchi
21st November 2008, 16:57
The road safety week document mentioned seat belts!
When was that??
Got a copy?


As has been oft discussed at this stage :smile: , this could have a significant bearing
on the ability of the RDF to function on training weekends, overnights, APWTs, etc....
Not really.
The DF has never choosen to enforce the max driving hours regulations that are in place. The military is exempt from the Tacho regs but not the RTA max hours. Although I can see them printing the regs I can't see them enforcing them. So IMHO new DSO will make no difference.

DeV
21st November 2008, 20:06
When was that??
Got a copy?

Check your mail!

luchi
26th November 2008, 10:13
Greyfox fyi according to vehicle specifications issued by TVMS a GS nissan patrol takes 8 passengers and an FFR takes 6 passengers.

It gives this figure for ALL models of the nissan patrols.

Dev, thanks for that email. It was obviously another work of fiction.

greyfox
4th December 2008, 15:59
Greyfox fyi according to vehicle specifications issued by TVMS a GS nissan patrol takes 8 passengers and an FFR takes 6 passengers.

It gives this figure for ALL models of the nissan patrols.

Dev, thanks for that email. It was obviously another work of fiction.

thanks luchi

since i ask the question , the unit asked same question and were informed that as long as there is a seatbelt and the seat is facing forward you can have a passenger in it ,

luchi
4th December 2008, 16:23
long as there is a seatbelt and the seat is facing forward you can have a passenger in it ,
?????

So, just to confuse the issue, are they saying no passenger should sit on the side facing seats?

NO one allowed to travel in trucks:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:.

greyfox
4th December 2008, 18:31
it only covered the nissan as far as i know but ill check

DeV
5th December 2008, 09:21
I think it is forward facing seats have to have a belt, backward / bench seats don't.

greyfox
5th December 2008, 12:37
was in the document received that the rear sideways facing seats in a Nissan were not to be used , ill try an obtain a copy in next few weeks , i will not be carrying anybody in those seats unless told otherwise ,

luchi
5th December 2008, 13:48
I think it is forward facing seats have to have a belt, backward / bench seats don't.

Thats ther law anyway but the DF can have its own interpretation.


was in the document received that the rear sideways facing seats in a Nissan were not to be used , ill try an obtain a copy in next few weeks , i will not be carrying anybody in those seats unless told otherwise ,
Please do.
You can PM a copy to me.
I will chase it at this end but thats not as easy as it sounds.

luchi
10th February 2009, 11:58
This was sent to me as a PM from a concerned IMOer


In an RSA publication, which is on their website, titled:

" Helping Learner Drivers To Drive Safely "

--- it says:

From 1 January 2009 it will be illegal to receive any
payment for accompanying a learner driver unless
you are a registered ADI (Approved Driving Instructor).

Question:

How does this affect us as RDF Driving Instructors on FULL TIME
TRAINING ???

Now I am not going to re-hash some of the things that I have already been slapped down for but I will only say this.


TVMS considers themselves to be exempt from the road traffic act when it comes to licencing and training of drivers so why would anyone think they would take notice of this.
When "employed" by the RDF you are "employed" as a soldier. You may be doing a technical job but that is secondary and so when instructing a learner driver you are being paid as a soldier and not an instructor.
No one cares.
So what do the rest of ye think?

The Prisoner
10th February 2009, 16:19
Those questions and all other questions will be fully answered when there is a serious mishap. As I posted here before a former member of my Unit found out the hard way that an AF154 is not recognised by the Courts. His civvy license got the endorsment and his pocket got the fine.

And the Gardai attitute can be summed up as follows:

Long, long time ago, in a provincial town a new bridge was built with a somewhat confusing road layout on one side. A local Garda of long years standing was asked:

Who has right of way at the bridge?

And he replied: "We were talking about that the other night in the station and we decided that when we've had a few crashes and court cases we'll know the answer."

That is a true story and an almost direct quote. And yes, I was present. The Garda has since gone to his eternal reward and was given a great send off by a very appreciative community.

I have been out numerous times and being waved throught check points with my nice shiny L plates and a happy pupil. Quite simply the Gradai will let the Army do what they want until the brown stuff has to be dispensed. Then the instructor can enjoy it all by himself.

I've said it before and it's worth repeating, once you go out on the public road the rules of the road and all Road Traffic Acts apply. Period.

hptmurphy
10th February 2009, 21:50
RtaS rule supreme and all user all the roads are subserviant to this, the militray authourites have some dispensation regarding ceratian opperations but my take would be once you are incmpliance with the basics of the RTA and have DSO to back you up in certain anomalies I reckon you are as best about covered as you can be

Drive on