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View Full Version : What Reccession? More big stuff coming.



Tadpole
2nd May 2009, 12:33
New tender for heavy recovery vehicles. Never fails to amaze me at the cost for these types of machines.

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/Search_View.aspx?id=MAY117208&ln=EN

Goldie fish
2nd May 2009, 13:59
A vital piece of equipment, particularly for overseas missions Like Chad. It'd not like you can give the AA a call.
Many of the current recovery vehicles are quite old. I'm pretty sure S Brigade has a 93 truck with a Holmes Wrecker. The Wrecker itself was taken off a Bedford which had been bought sometime in the 70s. Many of the Tow vehicles are quite limited by their axle weights too. I'm sure the transport people here will know more.

DeV
2nd May 2009, 14:01
Just because there is a recession doesn't mean that the DF will stop purchasing, they will just prioritise & possibly order in reduced quantities etc.

This contract is for two 8x8 Euro 4 recovery vehicles with trailers. They will probably be DROPS type vehicles with the option for armour on cab. They are for recovering 4x4 TCVs, DROPS, MOWAGs, LTAVs & 6x6 TCVs.

Current I think there is only 1 Astra DROPS recovery vehicle in service with the DF, the is a few wreckers that could recover the 4x4 TCVs plus "the Beast" (MAN 6x6, not sure if it is still in service) but it can't recover DROPs or MOWAGs as far as I know.

luchi
2nd May 2009, 15:38
Well Dev you are just about correct with your with your assessment of wreckers but these are for off road recovery. The are rarely actually used for the purpose that they were designed for.

Normal recovery is done using the bevertail or the lowloader depending on the size of the vehicle being recovered.

There is nothing wrong with mounting the recovery equipment onto a new vehicle. Unless there is a requirement to send these vehicles overseas, which I can't see being the case, they will be white elephants.

DeV
2nd May 2009, 15:50
You are correct of course luchi, presuming the bevertail/lowloader can recover the larger vehicles (MOWAGs & DROPS).

Overseas - hence the armour option

Truck Driver
2nd May 2009, 16:24
This contract is for two 8x8 Euro 4 recovery vehicles with trailers...

Could not see this particular item of information in the notification.... ?

paul g
2nd May 2009, 16:37
Well Dev you are just about correct with your with your assessment of wreckers but these are for off road recovery. The are rarely actually used for the purpose that they were designed for.

Normal recovery is done using the bevertail or the lowloader depending on the size of the vehicle being recovered.

There is nothing wrong with mounting the recovery equipment onto a new vehicle. Unless there is a requirement to send these vehicles overseas, which I can't see being the case, they will be white elephants.


With hundreds of vehicles overseas, they'll hardly be white elephants.

here is something the british have ordered from MAN

Truck Driver
2nd May 2009, 17:06
Cheers Paul, that answers the query I had above regarding the nature of the tender

Tadpole
2nd May 2009, 18:20
Euro 4 compliance is desirable not essential.

GoneToTheCanner
2nd May 2009, 19:42
A Holmes Wrecker? Jesus, they were ancient when I was in!
regards
GttC

turbocalves
2nd May 2009, 19:51
is that 2.5 - 3 million or am i seeing things?

luchi
2nd May 2009, 23:05
Euro 4 compliance is desirable not essential.

That is a std for vehicles intended for use in europe. If the vehicles are for use in Chad or other conflict country why bother spend money on emission suppression?


A Holmes Wrecker? Jesus, they were ancient when I was in!
regards
GttC
Yes it is an old unit but still functional.


You are correct of course luchi, presuming the bevertail/lowloader can recover the larger vehicles (MOWAGs & DROPS).
Beavertail recovers vehicles up to the size of a minibus and the lowloader gets everything else.


Overseas - hence the armour option
Not necessarily really, how many vehicles were bought with the ability to armour but never bought the plates to armour?

Are any of the DROPS in use in Chad plated?

With hundreds of vehicles overseas, they'll hardly be white elephants.

Where is the Astra wrecker now?
Although these vehicles may have the capability for use over seas doesn't mean they will ever go.

Actually, considering the length of time these tenders take this could easily be canned.

DeV
2nd May 2009, 23:44
Not necessarily really, how many vehicles were bought with the ability to armour but never bought the plates to armour? Its the 1st time i've seen it in a tender



Actually, considering the length of time these tenders take this could easily be canned.
It has only gone out so unless there are more cuts before the next budget they will be ok

REX
2nd May 2009, 23:54
is that 2.5 - 3 million or am i seeing things?

Pricey all right, but thats one hell of a vehicle they are describing. I just hope it doesn't turnout to be the turkey that the ASTRA/IVECO recovery truck was/is.

Don't forget that the contract also includes training, manuals and an initial supply of parts for the first 5 years ( I know it's not exactly clear, but this is a standard clause in DF vehicle procurement ), along with 2 diagnostic systems.

The Truck itself will probably be a small part of the total for each vehicle, by my count there are 3 winches, one crane and a recovery boom, along with a fit out of recovery tools, to include separate fitting for each type of vehicle in our fleet. Thats a lot of very expensive hydraulics & tools to put on one vehicle! That's before you even factor in the cost of the trailers.

All in all if they get them for €2.5m they'll be doing well, but someone will probably want this contract to just keep them going while times are hard

turbocalves
3rd May 2009, 00:10
thanks Rex!

paul g
3rd May 2009, 16:10
I get the impression that they've learnt from the ASTRA recovery vehicle.

Although Chad is a reasonably safe enironment, the next overseas mission might be in n area with lots of Landmines, IEDs. Its always better to have something like his and crews trained on it, then buying something at short notice.

Something like the British MAN or the American Oshkoch

luchi
3rd May 2009, 20:10
I get the impression that they've learnt from the ASTRA recovery vehicle.

What gives you that impression.


Although Chad is a reasonably safe enironment, the next overseas mission might be in n area with lots of Landmines, IEDs. Its always better to have something like his and crews trained on it, then buying something at short notice.

I know plenty that would claim that the Ivecos, when delivered to military spec, are as good as the equivelent MAN.
OK so they are Italians but that should not be relevant.

The DF has a history of looking for high spec vehicles and then getting a cut down version.
Latest example being the recent delivery of white elephant 6x6s.
Too big to be an LTCV, too small to be a logs vehicle and too difficult to be interchangable.

Judging from Rex's discription we will end up with two very big trucks with the equipment to be able to do many things adequatly but nothing well. The crews will do lots of training but after the first flurry of interest they will then be left to rot in the Curragh.

Then I could be wrong....................

Goldie fish
6th May 2009, 21:45
I was looking through the speifications required earlier, and a few things jumped out at me.



Recovery Crane This equipment must have the following features:

(1)Have a lifting capacity of a minimum of 14 tons with a minimum reach of 3.5 metres and a maximum reach of 7.5 metres.
(2)Be fitted with a continuous rotation system.
(3)Be fitted with measuring device to advise the operator of the weight of items being lifted.
(4)Allow for operation both through remote control and operator station fitted to the equipment
.


It will be a requirement that the successful tenderer will
have to contract that the proposed equipment be supplied
with lifting adaptors to suit the recovery eyes of vehicles
of the Irish Defence Forces Fleet. The fleet will include
the following vehicles:

i. MOWAG Pirhanna APC.
ii. RG 32M Light Tactical Armoured Vehicle (For delivery end 2009).
iii. SCANIA R124 CB 8X8 DROPS
iv. ASTRA M320.42 8X8 DROPS
v. SCANIA R420 C 6X6
vi. DAF T244 4X4 Troop Carrying Vehicle
vii. MERCEDES 117A 4X4 Troop Carrying Vehicle
viii. IVECO ML 140E18W 4X4 Troop CarryingVehicle




To lift 14 tonnes at 3.5m you need a 20 tonne crane with its boom extended to 10.5m. If you want to lift the same 17 tonnes at 7.5m you now need a 40 tonne crane, with its boom extended to 15m. However you are cutting things very tight. Given that they have specified the Vehicles GVW to be not more than 50 tonnes, things will be very very tight. Keep in mind that if you are lifting 17 tonnes, you must include the weight of the hook, usually about 500kg or more. They seem to want to use it to lift 20 foot containers onto the trailer(max weight of a TEU is usually 19t. The Present Iveco Astra recovery vehicle can only lift 6t at 3.3m. The Acmat wreckers could lift 10t at 1m, ie, inside the vehicle radius, or, useless. Practical lifting capacity was 6t. The MAN "Beast" could lift 12.5t at 2.9m
Solution, if you want to lift something, buy a crane, if you want to tow it home, buy a tow truck. You can't expect a vehicle of the size specified, to do either job well.
No mention of Panhards or Scorpions in vehicles expected to be recovered. This to me indicates their disposal is due. Or that they'll never go overseas, in which case they are of no practical use, and should be disposed of.


Looks to me like they already know the vehicle they want and have sculpted the tender accordingly.

Victor
6th May 2009, 21:53
I'm not sure exactly how crane lifting weights are measured (I understand the concept, not the details), but surely the lifting weight is substantially independent from the vehicle weight?

luchi
6th May 2009, 22:02
It is.........................
except for a little concept like balance and leverage which adds some to the GVW.

Goldie fish
6th May 2009, 22:06
Mechanics.(the science, not the people). Great craic altogether.

REX
6th May 2009, 22:15
Solution, if you want to lift something, buy a crane, if you want to tow it home, buy a tow truck. You can't expect a vehicle of the size specified, to do either job well.

You hit the nail on the head there, they would be better getting separate vehicles rather than a "jack of all trades, and a master of none!" unfortunately the budget does not always allow for this.

luchi
6th May 2009, 23:10
Mechanics.(the science, not the people). Great craic altogether.


ah the people can be too................:biggrin:

paul g
6th May 2009, 23:13
No mention of Panhards or Scorpions in vehicles expected to be recovered. This to me indicates their disposal is due. Or that they'll never go overseas, in which case they are of no practical use, and should be disposed of.

.

I think you pointed out that new PDF cav members are no longer trained on the panhard, the're long overdue for replacement.

The youngest scorpion is 25 years old, and have never been updated.



The only possible reason for holding onto the scorpions is if they might look at a tracked reconnianssance vehicle in the future, something like the FRES Recce the British are looking at to replace the Sabre/Scimitar. However, if there is a requirement for a further expansion of the cav fleet, more Mowags with 30mm would be a better investment.

REX
6th May 2009, 23:44
ah the people can be too................:biggrin:

It's all go in the workshops, the ladies love the axle grease!:biggrin:

DeV
7th May 2009, 00:05
I'm not sure exactly how crane lifting weights are measured (I understand the concept, not the details), but surely the lifting weight is substantially independent from the vehicle weight?

No expert but there are lots of factors, including the axle weight and as the crane is "reached" further the load it is capable of lifting decreases.

luchi
7th May 2009, 00:12
Get a sweeping brush. hold it at the top with the head just off the ground. now try and rotate your wrist only such that the head of the brush is vertically above your hand.

Now repeat but hold the brush at a different point along the handle. This is a simple demo that shows the type of strain a crane boom is under. Think then about how you can assist the motion and you are entering into the relm of crane dynamics.

REX
7th May 2009, 00:26
Get a sweeping brush. hold it at the top with the head just off the ground. now try and rotate your wrist only such that the head of the brush is vertically above your hand.

Now repeat but hold the brush at a different point along the handle. This is a simple demo that shows the type of strain a crane boom is under. Think then about how you can assist the motion and you are entering into the relm of crane dynamics.

Just Published "The Law Of The Lever For Dummies" by Luchi:biggrin::biggrin:

luchi
7th May 2009, 15:21
I was trying to be helpful..........

REX
7th May 2009, 18:58
I was trying to be helpful..........

I know, but the first law of the DF is, never let an opportunity to slag someone pass you by:biggrin::biggrin:

Truck Driver
7th May 2009, 19:37
I know, but the first law of the DF is, never let an opportunity to slag someone pass you by:biggrin::biggrin:

He's right, you know, Luchi... :biggrin:

You'd be the first one to take such an opportunity, and all.... :smile:

California Tanker
10th May 2009, 01:49
I think you pointed out that new PDF cav members are no longer trained on the panhard, the're long overdue for replacement.

The youngest scorpion is 25 years old, and have never been updated.



The only possible reason for holding onto the scorpions is if they might look at a tracked reconnianssance vehicle in the future, something like the FRES Recce the British are looking at to replace the Sabre/Scimitar.

Brits went with Piranha V as the FRES vehicle.

NTM

paul g
10th May 2009, 07:15
Brits went with Piranha V as the FRES vehicle.

NTM

That was only for the FRES utility, and they've now canceled it.

FRES recce will be tracked, and they've shortlisted CV-90 and Ascod with CTA 40mm turret.

However, FRES makes FCS look like a model of procurement efficency.

RoyalGreenJacket
4th July 2009, 01:10
With hundreds of vehicles overseas, they'll hardly be white elephants.

here is something the british have ordered from MAN

it's an awesome bit of kit - they trialled it here in Wales for a bit - best crew protection of any wrecker world wide apparently.