PDA

View Full Version : CIT



luchi
25th November 2010, 22:30
Don't they realise that the cash they protect is what we use, not the greedy bankers?

Nope.

The just see Garda and army driving by with big truck and think f-them.

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2010, 02:14
Don't they realise that the cash they protect is what we use, not the greedy bankers?


Nope.

The just see Garda and army driving by with big truck and think f-them.

in all fairness lads - Ireland is hardly the "Wild West" (not yet anyhow) and i'm not convinced the army should escort CIT - i don't see any other country doing it, not even in South Africa where it was proposed but never implemented.

the old IRA thingy just doesn't wash anymore.

i thought the banks paid for all this anyhow but i guess given the bail-out this may not continue in principal, or practice.

DeV
26th November 2010, 09:46
the old IRA thingy just doesn't wash anymore.

No now there are new IRAs - CIRA & RIRA - eg Northern Bank robbery

There is a substantial threat from organised crime (who are heavily armed (some have RPGs!)). No CIT escort has every been targeted (to the best of my knowledge).


i thought the banks paid for all this anyhow but i guess given the bail-out this may not continue in principal, or practice.

They do now!

SwiftandSure
26th November 2010, 10:18
No now there are new IRAs - CIRA & RIRA - eg Northern Bank robbery

There is a substantial threat from organised crime (who are heavily armed (some have RPGs!)). No CIT escort has every been targeted (to the best of my knowledge).

I think RGJ has a good point. Whilst there are still armed robberies, when it comes to gaining access to the contents of an armoured vehicle, the trend seems to be more along the lines of tiger kidnapping rather than taking on an armoured car or armed patrol head on.

Armed escorts of CITs is more for aesthetics than anything else.

trellheim
26th November 2010, 11:02
A gentle reminder. There is to be no Operational discussion of CIT about types, sizes, methods etc

DeV
26th November 2010, 11:39
rather than taking on an armoured car or armed patrol head on.

Armed escorts of CITs is more for aesthetics than anything else.

Every think the reason it isn't attended is that armed personnel are there.

There have been attempts to ambushes armoured cars in the past, three notable examples:

- Wicklow - the day of the blue flu, the Gardai shot at least 1 IRA member (I think it was after the GFA) was shot dead by Gardai

- Adare - an armed Garda was murdered by the IRA during an attempted armed raid on a post office truck

- Killiney/Dalkey around 4/5 years ago, there was an attempt to ram an armoured car

SwiftandSure
26th November 2010, 12:01
Every think the reason it isn't attended is that armed personnel are there.

There have been attempts to ambushes armoured cars in the past, three notable examples:

- Wicklow - the day of the blue flu, the Gardai shot at least 1 IRA member (I think it was after the GFA) was shot dead by Gardai

- Adare - an armed Garda was murdered by the IRA during an attempted armed raid on a post office truck

- Killiney/Dalkey around 4/5 years ago, there was an attempt to ram an armoured car

Were any of those raids successful? Taking on an armoured car without an armed guard is a huge challenge in itself. I'm sure there's enough countermeasures, GPS and panic buttons to keep the van's contents and crew safe for at least an hour whilst they wait for help. The smart money is in fraud (and being in Government by the looks of it), but if it's the van you want, then tiger kidnapping is the proven method of successfully extracting it's contents.

We're assuming criminals aren't attacking CIT trucks because there's a high profile armed deterrent, but I drove past an armoured truck this morning on the way to work and didn't think it looked at all vunerable, loaded or not.

While I think it's good that the PDF are occupied doing CIT duties in lieu of no real operations ongoing, and being seen to be occupied by Joe Soap on the street, I don't think the duty is a necessary one.
If someone is determined to rob an armoured van, they'll just attempt to rob one that's not escorted. The likelyhood of seeing something akin to the film HEAT in innercity Dublin, or anywhere for that matter is very remote.

trellheim
26th November 2010, 12:59
The likelyhood of seeing something akin to the film HEAT in innercity Dublin, or anywhere for that matter is very remote.

Because they are escorted by the DF. Prior to those escorts going in, the likelihood was not remote.

No messing, anyone here who served in the PDF or the GS will be able to give you fair chapter and vers.

Goldie fish
26th November 2010, 13:00
I'm quite uncomfortable with where this thread is going. We have some here giving reasons why criminals should or shouldnt rob a CiT, offering softer targets instead.

SwiftandSure
26th November 2010, 13:28
Because they are escorted by the DF. Prior to those escorts going in, the likelihood was not remote.

No messing, anyone here who served in the PDF or the GS will be able to give you fair chapter and vers.

If you say so, I'll take your word for it.

I just think there's enough armoured trucks driving around without escort, with just as suitable bounty inside, and I don't think anyone has blown the doors off one of them recently. All previous attempts, were just that, attempts, they didn't succeed (I'm open to correction on that.) as the vans are secure enough.


I'm quite uncomfortable with where this thread is going. We have some here giving reasons why criminals should or shouldnt rob a CiT, offering softer targets instead.

Surely what I'm stating is common sense? I've never escorted CIT, or planned/attempted to breach or rob an armoured truck; so I'm merely stating the logical thought process of anyone without inside working knowledge of security protocols, military SOPs, or armoured vehicle build capability or counter-measures.

ZULU
26th November 2010, 13:30
Off thread at least?

SwiftandSure
26th November 2010, 13:53
True, I am off thread

Although the point remains, is it worth spending the taxpayers' money protecting the banks' vans? It's not like the banks spent anything to protect the taxpayers' interests :)

Goldie fish
26th November 2010, 14:30
True, I am off thread

Although the point remains, is it worth spending the taxpayers' money protecting the banks' vans? It's not like the banks spent anything to protect the taxpayers' interests :)

They are not protecting the vans. The Gardai are protecting YOUR cash. The banks don't do business in cash, the public do(even though the bank would prefer we didn't).
If the van is empty no Gardai Protect it.

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2010, 14:37
look - if someone else is paying the FULL cost of Irish DF soldiers doing CIT well who cares - it's jobs for the boys and keeps them otherwise busy.

however, the IRA have operated on a scale hundreds if not thousands of times greater than they have in the Republic yet the British Army nor the RUC have never performed CIT, and the PSNI do not provide CIT escorts either except on very exceptional circumstances (i.e. millions / billions of raw currency entering the province.

the Northern Bank robbery robbery was not against CIT so is irrelevant in this subject.

whilst CIT by armed soldiers is an obvious deterrent, is still just jobs for the boys, Ireland is not that bad.

and remember - the banks money that pays for this is ultimately YOUR money, wouldn't you rather see it going back into your pocket rather than onto the street - literally?

luchi
26th November 2010, 14:42
True, I am off thread

Although the point remains, is it worth spending the taxpayers' money protecting the banks' vans? It's not like the banks spent anything to protect the taxpayers' interests :)

not as far off thread as one might think.

the army costs 1% of GDP (just using figure above)

All it does, as far as joe public is concerned, is swan around protecting the banks money.

And if the bank is paying then the army should be cost neutral.

The country can save part of the 1% of GDP.

Ok so the AC is flying officials about but again they shouldn't be. (this is the public opinion as published in numerous new articles in the past year)

so there is another saving scrap the AC.

The only branch of the service that can really justify its existance is the NS. They have shown their value in many areas.

I know some of you will say "what about OS?".
Well what about it?
If i want to support OS developement and security there are plenty of organisations I can donate to. Why should i have to pay tax that supports an campaign if I would not normally support it?

btw CIT in other countries there is another thread that talks about that.
It might not obviously be the army escourting but it is either the army (eg Italy), armed police(eg Croatia) or armed civilian guards (eg USA). We are just more obviously using the army.

SwiftandSure
26th November 2010, 14:49
They are not protecting the vans. The Gardai are protecting YOUR cash. The banks don't do business in cash, the public do(even though the bank would prefer we didn't).
If the van is empty no Gardai Protect it.

But if the Gardai are protecting it, then why do we need the Army?

If the banks are paying and it's cost neutral, then grand, I'll stop gobshiting on. But if it's at a cost to the DoD budget, then surely there's an obvious saving that could be made? No?

Craghopper
26th November 2010, 15:01
not as far off thread as one might think.

the army costs 1% of GDP (just using figure above)

All it does, as far as joe public is concerned, is swan around protecting the banks money.

And if the bank is paying then the army should be cost neutral.

The country can save part of the 1% of GDP.

Ok so the AC is flying officials about but again they shouldn't be. (this is the public opinion as published in numerous new articles in the past year)

so there is another saving scrap the AC.

The only branch of the service that can really justify its existance is the NS. They have shown their value in many areas.

I know some of you will say "what about OS?".
Well what about it?
If i want to support OS developement and security there are plenty of organisations I can donate to. Why should i have to pay tax that supports an campaign if I would not normally support it?

btw CIT in other countries there is another thread that talks about that.
It might not obviously be the army escourting but it is either the army (eg Italy), armed police(eg Croatia) or armed civilian guards (eg USA). We are just more obviously using the army.


Swan around eh?? I've said this before and I'll say it again.. Who the fuk here is privy to Army/ Gardai Int in relation to a threat?

Nuff said.

DeV
26th November 2010, 15:20
Were any of those raids successful?

Here is one that was - http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?p=317347&highlight=CIT#post317347 - this month


I'm sure there's enough countermeasures, GPS and panic buttons to keep the van's contents and crew safe for at least an hour whilst they wait for help. I'm sure there is but we won't be advertising it.


We're assuming criminals aren't attacking CIT trucks because there's a high profile armed deterrent, but I drove past an armoured truck this morning on the way to work and didn't think it looked at all vunerable, loaded or not.
If you wanted to rob a CIT truck which one would you choose? One with an armed escort or one with a few lads in a van?



If you say so, I'll take your word for it.

I just think there's enough armoured trucks driving around without escort, with just as suitable bounty inside, and I don't think anyone has blown the doors off one of them recently. All previous attempts, were just that, attempts, they didn't succeed (I'm open to correction on that.) as the vans are secure enough.

See link above, the Gardai believe there is a threat and therefore request an ATCP operation to protect them!


QUOTE=SwiftandSure;318494]Although the point remains, is it worth spending the taxpayers' money protecting the banks' vans? It's not like the banks spent anything to protect the taxpayers' interests :)[/QUOTE]

Except it is your cash, your bank, your insurance premiums that are effected etc


They are not protecting the vans. The Gardai are protecting YOUR cash. The banks don't do business in cash, the public do(even though the bank would prefer we didn't).
If the van is empty no Gardai Protect it.


however, the IRA have operated on a scale hundreds if not thousands of times greater than they have in the Republic yet the British Army nor the RUC have never performed CIT, and the PSNI do not provide CIT escorts either except on very exceptional circumstances (i.e. millions / billions of raw currency entering the province. The PSNI/RUC are/were armed! Plus there is a lot more of them per head of the population (and size of the area to be policed).

The IRA & INLA funded there activities by robbing banks in the Republic in the 70s!




the Northern Bank robbery robbery was not against CIT so is irrelevant in this subject.







btw CIT in other countries there is another thread that talks about that.
It might not obviously be the army escourting but it is either the army (eg Italy), armed police(eg Croatia) or armed civilian guards (eg USA). We are just more obviously using the army.
Exactly as we don't allow any joe soap to carry a gun in public and the vast majority of our police are unarmed.


But if the Gardai are protecting it, then why do we need the Army?
The DF can't just decide to go onto the streets, they have to be requested by the Gardai to conduct an ATCP (as otherwise it could be seen as a coup!). The DF personnel are there to protect the Gardai as there is a threat to the cash they are there to protect and the blagger will probably be armed. The Gardai are more than likely unarmed as uniformed Gardai don't carry firearms (unless in tactical kit).

DeV
26th November 2010, 15:21
MOD: I'm probably a bad for taking the bait and replying.... thread closing!

FMolloy
26th November 2010, 16:19
in all fairness lads - Ireland is hardly the "Wild West" (not yet anyhow) and i'm not convinced the army should escort CIT - i don't see any other country doing it, not even in South Africa where it was proposed but never implemented.

Other countries have armed private security firms to do it, and armed police regularly escort CIT vans in the UK.


the old IRA thingy just doesn't wash anymore.

You're forgetting about the dissidents.

Vickers
26th November 2010, 16:23
Its great the way MODs can post to closed threads:-D

DeV
26th November 2010, 17:57
MOD: Warning - keep it general

FMolloy
26th November 2010, 18:34
But if the Gardai are protecting it, then why do we need the Army?

Because the Army has weapons and most of the Gardaí don't. The vast majority of armed Gardaí are detectives or members of other specialist units; if they were to take over the protection of CIT vans then the time available to them to do their primary jobs would be severely lessened.

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2010, 20:11
Every think the reason it isn't attended is that armed personnel are there.

There have been attempts to ambushes armoured cars in the past, three notable examples:

- Wicklow - the day of the blue flu, the Gardai shot at least 1 IRA member (I think it was after the GFA) was shot dead by Gardai

- Adare - an armed Garda was murdered by the IRA during an attempted armed raid on a post office truck

- Killiney/Dalkey around 4/5 years ago, there was an attempt to ram an armoured car

The IRA & INLA funded there activities by robbing banks in the Republic in the 70s!

wow - that's one incident in the 80's, one in the 90's and one in the past decade - it's hardly the Wild West or down town Soweto now is it?

do three incidents in the past 30 years really justify soldiers escorting CIT?


Other countries have armed private security firms to do it, and armed police regularly escort CIT vans in the UK.

You're forgetting about the dissidents.

thank you for re-enforcing my point FMolloy - no sign of any other country employing an Army to escort CIT.

and how could i forget about the dissidents when they have killed some of our soldiers in the past couple of years?

armed robberies on CIT happen all over the world every day - including in Ireland. you can't guard every van all of the time.

you are clinging onto a practice that made some sense in the 70's but in this day and age it is surplus to requirement - especially given the cost involved that YOU the Irish people are paying for in one way or another.

no wonder you don't have FREE banking in Ireland like we do in the UK - because we don't mis-employ soldiers to protect our money from an enemy that was prevalent over 40 years ago.

time to wake up and smell the coffee again lads - Ireland is broke - who is going to keep paying to escort CIT?

FMolloy
26th November 2010, 20:31
thank you for re-enforcing my point FMolloy - no sign of any other country employing an Army to escort CIT

And you're missing mine. Armed escort is provided in other countries, just by other means.


and how could i forget about the dissidents when they have killed some of our soldiers in the past couple of years?

You seem to have done so, or at least written them off as a potential threat to CIT.


armed robberies on CIT happen all over the world every day - including in Ireland. you can't guard every van all of the time.

They don't.


you are clinging onto a practice that made some sense in the 70's but in this day and age it is surplus to requirement - especially given the cost involved that YOU the Irish people are paying for in one way or another.

Are you saying that the practice of providing armed escorts for the movement of substantial amounts of cash is outdated? If that is the case why do UK police do so?


no wonder you don't have FREE banking in Ireland like we do in the UK - because we don't mis-employ soldiers to protect our money from an enemy that was prevalent over 40 years ago.

So you're saying that we don't have 'free' banking because we use the Army to protect money??

Aside from the fact that there is free banking available in Ireland, how do you equate one with the other?


time to wake up and smell the coffee again lads - Ireland is broke - who is going to keep paying to escort CIT?

Who's going to keep paying soldiers and Gardaí anyway?

Goldie fish
26th November 2010, 20:43
There are 2 threads on Boards.ie about this and one here. WTF?

DeV
26th November 2010, 21:51
wow - that's one incident in the 80's, one in the 90's and one in the past decade - it's hardly the Wild West or down town Soweto now is it?

do three incidents in the past 30 years really justify soldiers escorting CIT?

Those were merely 3 well known examples!

But if thats the way this is going I'll give you some stats according to the CSO:

Robbery of cash or goods in transit
2004 - 61 (at least 37 of these were CIT)
2005 - 44 (there were 15 attacks on CIT in the first 2.5 months, 1 raid in March resulted in the loss of €2.7 million!)
2006 - 31
2007 - 20
2008 - 26
2009 - 24


armed robberies on CIT happen all over the world every day - including in Ireland. you can't guard every van all of the time.

You seem to think, every CIT van has an escort.... it doesn't..... those were there may be a threat (based on intelligence) are provided with an escort.


To quote the then Minister of Justice in 2007:

Following a robbery of about 430,000 pounds from a security van in Co. Limerick in June 1978 the Government, in an informal decision, directed that a Garda/Army escort should accompany major cash consignments. The Government has historically recognised that it is both in its interest and the interest of the public that cash can be transited securely around the country.

In addition to these Garda/Army escorts, the Special Detective Unit of An Garda Siochana also escorts numerous other cash movements, particularly in the Dublin area.

The decision as to whether a particular cash consignment will receive a Garda or Garda/Army escort is made on an operational basis by the Garda Síochána.

The banks have been contributing a proportion of the costs of cash escorts since 1992. From 1995 until 2002 the contribution was 952,000 Euro. In 2003 this rose to 3m Euro and in 2006 the contribution rose again to 4.25m Euro.

The MoU signed today provides for the calculation of the costs of escorts on the basis of a number of factors, including pay and allowances, subsistence, overtime, fuel and transport costs.

From the point of view of the banking industry, the MoU provides for greater cost transparency and facilitates consideration of issues relating to operational efficiency.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR07000631

luchi
26th November 2010, 23:41
Swan around eh?? I've said this before and I'll say it again.. Who the fuk here is privy to Army/ Gardai Int in relation to a threat?

Nuff said.
its the perception. the realty is irrelevant as far as joe public is concerned.



thank you for re-enforcing my point FMolloy - no sign of any other country employing an Army to escort CIT.

except as i mentioned Italy where the military police escort cash and prisioners.

terrier
27th November 2010, 01:44
Remove the DF escort to CIT deterrent and see how fast the vans get attacked.

RoyalGreenJacket
27th November 2010, 02:51
(my comments are in yellow)


And you're missing mine. Armed escort is provided in other countries, just by other means.

and you are totally missing my point - why have the ARMY escorting CIT? give me some examples where armed CIT escort is provided in other countries by 'other means' - i've been all over the world and can't say i have see anything like how CIT is performed in Ireland.

You seem to have done so, or at least written them [dissident groups] off as a potential threat to CIT.

they are more of a threat to CIT in Northern Ireland than the Republic and again we do not use and have never used soldiers to escort CIT and armed escorts of CIT by the PSNI are not carried out anything like the scale they are in the Republic by the Irish DF yet the robberies and raids continue in Ireland despite the Irish DF escorting CIT as Dev has kindly pointed out below.

Are you saying that the practice of providing armed escorts for the movement of substantial amounts of cash is outdated? If that is the case why do UK police do so?

i'm saying getting your soldiers to escort CIT is absolutely outdated yes. the UK police do it on exceptional circumstances - not as a matter of routine because it is not a job for soldiers and it's not done anything on the scale of that in Ireland

So you're saying that we don't have 'free' banking because we use the Army to protect money??

i'm saying that there is a massive cost involved in providing soldiers to escort CIT and somewhere along the line you are footing the bill one way or another.

Aside from the fact that there is free banking available in Ireland, how do you equate one with the other?

i'd like to point out that your 'free banking' is not actually free in Ireland - you still have to pay the 50 cent government tax on each cheque you write and a 30 euro a year stamp duty on credit cards and 5 euro a year on debit cards. we don't have any such charges, probably aided by the fact that we don't have to pay soldiers to escort our CIT.

Who's going to keep paying soldiers and Gardaí anyway?

ask me one on sport...



Those [events over the past 3 decades] were merely 3 well known examples!

But if thats the way this is going I'll give you some stats according to the CSO:

Robbery of cash or goods in transit
2004 - 61 (at least 37 of these were CIT)
2005 - 44 (there were 15 attacks on CIT in the first 2.5 months)
2006 - 31
2007 - 20
2008 - 26
2009 - 24

with figures like that Dev - you have just confirmed to me that escorting CIT is a total waste of time because literally hundreds of incidents have occurred over the years while the Irish DF have been escorting CIT, therefore confirming what i said earlier:


armed robberies on CIT happen all over the world every day - including in Ireland. you can't guard every van all of the time.

yes an armed escort by the Irish DF is an obvious deterrent and anybody even considering taking on a professional force like the Irish DF would be insane, but the criminals have plenty of other wise easy pickings as the figures you quoted have highlighted - so thank you very much for those stats, as i was looking for something which indicated such raids and robberies are so prevelant despite your army escorting CIT.

it's a costly process that has to be paid for and the people picking up that tab are the people of Ireland - this is YOUR money and it is total overkill - no other country uses their Army to protect CIT like this!

i'm happier knowing i get FREE banking rather than paying through the nose for it just to have some of it protected by the Army.

escorting CIT is no longer a justifiable job for the Irish DF.

apod
27th November 2010, 08:38
Ok lets settle some of this.
The REAL reason the Army does CIT escorts is COST.Soldiers get paid alot less then Gardai and dont get overtime.To replace the Army guarding CITs with armed Gardai on the runs we do would cost a small fortune.We are cheap labour.End of.
All the CITs that have been "hit up" over the past thirty years have either had a small garda escort or none.Our record(so far) is flawless.Oh BTW the non DF escorted ones are not escorted for various reasons.The IRA or even the dissidents are not the primary threat anymore despite what some here think.Not gonna comment any more on that so dont ask,but the treat is very very real.Perhaps more now than ever.
On the comparison that the threat is higher in the North i would debate that.We have long been thought of as (wrongly)the softer otion considering the level of armed police and security in the north.
Having said all this as a professional soldier IMHO CIT is not a job we should be doing.It interferes with the running of military courses,training etc as on any given day we have alot of our Instructors out of Bks.hvaing said that it has given us alot of usefull transferrable skills that are used on Overseas ops.Convoy security etc.

MOD: Editted - don't advertise!

dahamster
27th November 2010, 09:05
Ok lets settle some of this.
The REAL reason the Army does CIT escorts is COST.Soldiers get paid alot less then Gardai and dont get overtime.To replace the Army guarding CITs with armed Gardai on the runs we do would cost a small fortune.We are cheap labour.End of.
All the CITs that have been "hit up" over the past thirty years have either had a small garda escort or none.Our record(so far) is flawless.
The IRA or even the dissidents are not the primary threat anymore despite what some here think.Not gonna comment any more on that so dont ask,but the treat is very very real.Perhaps more now than ever.
On the comparison that the threat is higher in the North i would debate that.We have long been thought of as (wrongly)the softer otion considering the level of armed police and security in the north.
Having said all this as a professional soldier IMHO CIT is not a job we should be doing.It interferes with the running of military courses,training etc as on any given day we have alot of our Instructors out of Bks.hvaing said that it has given us alot of usefull transferrable skills that are used on Overseas ops.Convoy security etc.

well said. Just to add, in the 80's and early 90's escorts were a handy way to augment what were very poor wages, so you probably wouldn't have heard that said then but it's the truth.

BANDIT
27th November 2010, 10:35
Is there a blue moon/ I agree with APOD. As it happens I was nco in charge of one of the first escorts from the border down to foster place in 1978,. It seemed a bit daft then when there was probably more of a threat..
I think it may only be time before an escort is attacked. Guys are probably bored out of their tree, know that threat level is low , always use the same routes even timings, cold weather dont get out of cars .complacent and then some guy sticks a shotgun in the door oops, I hope it never happens.. but examples abound of similar scenarios,,
APOD right its cheap labour

FMolloy
27th November 2010, 11:58
and you are totally missing my point - why have the ARMY escorting CIT? give me some examples where armed CIT escort is provided in other countries by 'other means' - i've been all over the world and can't say i have see anything like how CIT is performed in Ireland.

We have the Army do it because they're armed, trained & there's a lot of them. I've already given you examples of the other means - armed police & armed private security companies.



they are more of a threat to CIT in Northern Ireland than the Republic and again we do not use and have never used soldiers to escort CIT and armed escorts of CIT by the PSNI are not carried out anything like the scale they are in the Republic by the Irish DF yet the robberies and raids continue in Ireland despite the Irish DF escorting CIT as Dev has kindly pointed out below.

I've seen plenty of PSNI cars escorting CIT vans in NI.



i'm saying getting your soldiers to escort CIT is absolutely outdated yes. the UK police do it on exceptional circumstances - not as a matter of routine because it is not a job for soldiers and it's not done anything on the scale of that in Ireland

The UK police are doing it far more often than you seem to realise and have been doing it on a regular basis for some time, in fact they've actually picked up in certain regions of the UK this year.



i'm saying that there is a massive cost involved in providing soldiers to escort CIT and somewhere along the line you are footing the bill one way or another.

What cost do you put on public safety & security?



i'd like to point out that your 'free banking' is not actually free in Ireland - you still have to pay the 50 cent government tax on each cheque you write and a 30 euro a year stamp duty on credit cards and 5 euro a year on debit cards. we don't have any such charges, probably aided by the fact that we don't have to pay soldiers to escort our CIT.

The amount of tax generated by the above taxes far, far exceed the cost of the escorts and the government already has a mechanism for billing financial institutions for the facility, so your theory is rubbish.



with figures like that Dev - you have just confirmed to me that escorting CIT is a total waste of time because literally hundreds of incidents have occurred over the years while the Irish DF have been escorting CIT, therefore confirming what i said earlier

None of those incidents occurred where the DF was escorting them.



it's a costly process that has to be paid for and the people picking up that tab are the people of Ireland - this is YOUR money and it is total overkill - no other country uses their Army to protect CIT like this!

Because they have other armed groups doing it.



escorting CIT is no longer a justifiable job for the Irish DF.

So you're saying that there's no need for any armed protection of CIT vans?

apod
27th November 2010, 12:05
We have the Army do it because they're armed, trained & there's a lot of them.
And because it a hell of alot cheaper than getting your lot to do it!We dont get allowances for being armed either.

hedgehog
27th November 2010, 12:22
This thread should be closed and deleted

From reading 2 pages on here I could easily gather certain nuggets of info concerning CIT's

and from looking at the Boards thread I can also add to my knowledge of CIT's.

Innocent as it seems and paranoid as I am- every little nugget of needless info on this pointless thread

has the capacity to cause harm to our comrade Soldiers and Comrade Gardai.

This thread is pointless- and I hate to be blunt or insulting - but most of the contributors have never or will

never do a CIT.

Lets use common sense and send this thread to the depths of dead threads ville

knocker
27th November 2010, 12:34
+ 1 \:)|

Am sure special branch / army intelligance wouldnt waste their time if there wasnt a threat

DeV
27th November 2010, 12:34
As luchi has already pointed out other countries do provide armed CIT escorts (most countries have armed uniformed police and/or security guards.

The figures posted are for raids that have been unescorted, there are over 2000 DF CIT escorts every year (and they have been going on for 32 years) and there has NEVER been an attempt on one of those CITs (probably because the escort is there). An armed escort is there an excellent deterant!

There are reasons why DF CIT escorts are requested by the Gardai:
- cost - as apod says a soldier is a lot cheaper than a Garda (armed or not)
- availability of troops - the troops are there and available
- availability of Gardai - there are less than 15,000 Gardai in the Republic (and only around 3500 of them are authorised to carry firearms (they aren't carried at all times by all and obviouslu not all are on duty at the same time)
- intelligence - can be a general threat or specific (believe me it is there not just from subversives but also criminals). We can't go into it but the threat is there


criminals have plenty of other wise easy pickings as the figures you quoted have highlighted - so thank you very much for those stats, as i was looking for something which indicated such raids and robberies are so prevelant despite your army escorting CIT.
See above, all these raids were against unescorted CIT, if we do away with it it will be making easier pickings and costing us all even more!



We have long been thought of as (wrongly)the softer otion considering the level of armed police and security in the north.
Well the chances of running in armed soldiers or police in NI would be a lot higher!


Having said all this as a professional soldier IMHO CIT is not a job we should be doing.It interferes with the running of military courses,training etc as on any given day we have alot of our Instructors out of Bks.
True but it isn't the DF's job to question the tasks assigned to it! But in the absence of sufficient armed Gardai I'd prefer to have the DF guarding our money, than unarmed Gardai or no one at all!

Goldie fish
27th November 2010, 14:05
This thread should be closed and deleted

From reading 2 pages on here I could easily gather certain nuggets of info concerning CIT's

and from looking at the Boards thread I can also add to my knowledge of CIT's.

Innocent as it seems and paranoid as I am- every little nugget of needless info on this pointless thread

has the capacity to cause harm to our comrade Soldiers and Comrade Gardai.

This thread is pointless- and I hate to be blunt or insulting - but most of the contributors have never or will

never do a CIT.

Lets use common sense and send this thread to the depths of dead threads ville

+1

The mods seem to have their own ideas. Very incompetent.

I may keep quoting this post until the thread is closed.

Snacker
27th November 2010, 14:32
If anyone was casing a CIT they would know everything anyone here has said anyway.

apod
27th November 2010, 14:58
From what i have read here this discussion is about the DF provision of CIT escorts.NOT how they do them.So long is this thread is kept within the realms of OPSEC and PERSEC i see no harm in it.Nobody here,myself included, has violated either during this discussion.Lets keep it that way.

By the way in my earlier post i was questioning the tasking of the Army on CIT thus expressing my opinion.Not speaking for the DF.Does IMHO not mean anything anymore??

Vickers
27th November 2010, 15:14
MOD: I agree with apod. Everything posted here is in the public domain and not OPSEC and as long as it remains so I see no reason to close the thread. When it was closed earlier by DEV complaints and comments were made in the Moderation thread.

Comments on the competence of MODs and other threats will lead to the other type of "Moderation".

luchi
27th November 2010, 16:47
I am intregue RGJ.

You insists Ireland is the only one using the army to do CIT. And you say this is based on your experience of travelling.

Have you never been to Italy?

RoyalGreenJacket
27th November 2010, 16:58
right lets get this straight - my issue here is with the Army escorting CIT.

Ireland is not a combat zone and does not face the problems which still prevail in Italy where the CIT is guarded incidentally by the Carabinieri and NOT the Italian Army as was wrongly stated above.

if you need your CIT escorted by an armed guard then so be it and do what everyone else does either arm more police or get a civvie company to do it but let soldiers get on with what they should be doing - soldiering, not following a Securicor van around the country in a Nissan Patrol and getting extra pay or days off for it. it's a total waste of manpower and resources and still seems to me to be 'jobs for the boy's to justify their role and existence.

Goldie fish
27th November 2010, 17:05
I saw CIT in kiev once.

Plain ford transit, no armour.

Passenger carried AKM.

A bit unnerving seeing a guy walking into Mc Donalds carryin an AKM. He was collecting their days takings.

RoyalGreenJacket
27th November 2010, 17:18
I saw CIT in kiev once.

Plain ford transit, no armour.

Passenger carried AKM.

A bit unnerving seeing a guy walking into Mc Donalds carryin an AKM. He was collecting their days takings.

that would be a far more efficient operation although hardly as effective as a section from the Irish DF but it may be enough of a deterrent.

anytime i go back to Ireland i see a couple of CIT's being escorted by the Irish DF in the Re[ublic on a daily basis however i can count on one hand the number of CIT's in Northern Ireland i've ever seen being escorted by the RUC / PSNI over the years - it is just not practiced on the scale it is in the Republic.

and despite FMolloy saying you had free banking in Ireland which i pointed out that you do NOT have free banking in Ireland and he resigned to the fact that the taxes you pay for your banking cover this - you are obviously not getting value for money here and i guarantee you that if a contract was put out to tender to provide armed CIT escorts then it could be done for far less cost whilst allowing soldiers to get on with their real job - soldiering instead of playing glorified security guards for a threat that does not warrant a section of armed soldiers for each task. you're paying for all this one way or another!

DeV
27th November 2010, 17:34
Ireland is not a combat zone and does not face the problems which still prevail in Italy where the CIT is guarded incidentally by the Carabinieri and NOT the Italian Army as was wrongly stated above.

What problems prevail in Italy? Would it happen to be the mafia? A group of well organised well armed criminals:rolleyes:

The Carabinieri are a para-military police force (that also act as MPs) that are part of the Italian armed forces (and have served in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan).





if you need your CIT escorted by an armed guard then so be it and do what everyone else does either arm more police or get a civvie company to do it but let soldiers get on with what they should be doing - soldiering, not following a Securicor van around the country in a Nissan Patrol and getting extra pay or days off for it. it's a total waste of manpower and resources and still seems to me to be 'jobs for the boy's to justify their role and existence.
Unfortually taking ATCP from the DF would give the Government an excuse to cut back the DF even further and possibly get rid of it altogether (if the Greens had anything to do with it).

Personnel do ATCP tasks in addition to their military training and duties, they receive an additional allowance for it (which would be nothing compared to the overtime a Garda or Prison Officer would get), but a soldier (unlike a Garda) isn't covered by employment legislation and can be ordered to do something at no notice even on a rest day, it is something all PDF members of the army are trained to do as part of their basic training, it isn't there full time job.

Recruiting, training, equipping, paying and maintaining the required numbers of armed Gardai to replace soldiers on ATCP would costs €10s of millions on an annual basis (for CIT escorts alone)!

We will all agree that it isn't ideal, but it is an extreme cost effective solution!

DeV
27th November 2010, 17:37
i guarantee you that if a contract was put out to tender to provide armed CIT escorts then it could be done for far less cost whilst allowing soldiers to get on with their real job - soldiering instead of playing glorified security guards for a threat that does not warrant a section of armed soldiers for each task. you're paying for all this one way or another!

We are all paying for it one way or another, the same way we would be if armed CIT escorts were discontinued and criminals got more of our money!

If a fair few of the public don't like seeing the army protecting their cash would they prefer someone who isn't a Garda or a soldier carrying a gun on the street!

It also means their are "independent" people there, eg in the case of a tiger kidnapping (there have been private security personnel who have been targetted and involved in CIT raids in the past!

luchi
27th November 2010, 18:31
Ireland is not a combat zone and does not face the problems which still prevail in Italy where the CIT is guarded incidentally by the Carabinieri and NOT the Italian Army as was wrongly stated above.

what??

the Carabinieri ARE military police they are nont acting!!!!!

Are now and always have been.

With some exceptions they are recruited from the general military population.

They even go on un-military missions not just police ones.

My cousin would be extremely displeased with the error you just made:eek:

luchi
27th November 2010, 18:43
RGJ although I have on previous occasions stated exactly as you, that the DF are been used as glorified security guards, I don't quite see your bashing the reason why they are there.

It would be like me saying there is no need for all this airport security because no terrorist treath has been carried out on an aircraft from Ireland.

danno
27th November 2010, 19:32
Despite the success of DF escorts it was the Bankers themselves who did away with all the billions at taxpayers expense.

ZULU
27th November 2010, 20:21
Pen mightier than the sword! :-D:frown:

SwiftandSure
27th November 2010, 20:44
In fairness, if I was still a regular private soldier in an army with limited scope of overseas service, and duties available to me were a choice between stagging on or rolling "shotgun" with an armoured truck; I'd opt for and be glad of the latter.
I believe the banks pay for the service anyway, so it's cost neutral to the DoD. Threat or no threat, it also works well as good experience for the troops should they ever need to provide force protection to convoys on Ops.

I suppose the long and short of it is that there's no harm to it, and it gets the lads out in front of Joe Public.

FMolloy
27th November 2010, 22:39
Ireland is not a combat zone and does not face the problems which still prevail in Italy where the CIT is guarded incidentally by the Carabinieri and NOT the Italian Army as was wrongly stated above.

The Carabinieri are a gendarmerie and thus part of the Italian armed forces.

FMolloy
27th November 2010, 22:47
and despite FMolloy saying you had free banking in Ireland which i pointed out that you do NOT have free banking in Ireland and he resigned to the fact that the taxes you pay for your banking cover this - you are obviously not getting value for money here and i guarantee you that if a contract was put out to tender to provide armed CIT escorts then it could be done for far less cost whilst allowing soldiers to get on with their real job - soldiering instead of playing glorified security guards for a threat that does not warrant a section of armed soldiers for each task. you're paying for all this one way or another!

It seems you only read what you wanted to read from my post.

Free banking is available here, tax-free banking is another thing and entirely separate to the issue of fees. I did not say that the taxes we pay for banking pays for CIT escort; you claimed that banking was taxed in order to provide this cover, I told you that the government bill the banks for the service & that any tax the government get from banking far exceeds the cost of CIT so it was disingenuous of you to claim that banking was taxed to pay for CIT.

RoyalGreenJacket
28th November 2010, 01:49
my comments in yellow:


I am intregue RGJ.

You insists Ireland is the only one using the army to do CIT. And you say this is based on your experience of travelling.

Have you never been to Italy?

have you ever actually worked with the Caribineiri?

i have, and yes i have been to sent to Italy twice in my military career and i also worked with the Caribineiri in Iraq - so i am well versed to know that they are NOT the Italian Army which is why i said before - the Italian Army do not provide CIT escorts.



What problems prevail in Italy? Would it happen to be the mafia? A group of well organised well armed criminals:rolleyes:

Italy, mostly due to Mafia activity, is and almost always has had corruption prevailing in its government and day to day business which saw the Caribineiri being re-roled to be an independent effective para-military police force to counter such corruption at all levels, however like i said - the Italian Army do NOT provide armed escorts to CIT - this is a job for the Caribinieri.

Unfortually taking ATCP from the DF would give the Government an excuse to cut back the DF even further and possibly get rid of it altogether (if the Greens had anything to do with it).

finally - someone has seen the light - the Irish DF providing armed escorts to CIT is exactly what i said it was - "jobs for the boys", i'm glad we agree on something Dev!!



what??

the Carabinieri ARE military police they are nont acting!!!!!

Are now and always have been.

sorry to smash your illusions and correct you luchi but the Caribineiri are NOT the Italian Army.

Not now but previously have been.

the Caribineiri are a dedicated paramiliary organisation separate to the Italian Army which is part of the Italian Armed forces but the Caribineiri are not the Italian Army, they are para-military policemen responsible for crime prevention and fighting organised crime - they are not soldiers.

They even go on un-military missions not just police ones.

yes they do - i worked with them on occasion in Iraq - but they were not soldiers

My cousin would be extremely displeased with the error you just made:eek:

why would he be disappointed mate? did he think he was joining an army and ended up in a paramilitary police force? i'd be disappointed too if i joined an army to be a soldier only to find myself escorting CIT :-D


The Carabinieri are a gendarmerie and thus part of the Italian armed forces.

yes they are - why, who ever said otherwise?



RGJ although I have on previous occasions stated exactly as you, that the DF are been used as glorified security guards, I don't quite see your bashing the reason why they are there.

It would be like me saying there is no need for all this airport security because no terrorist treath has been carried out on an aircraft from Ireland.

every airport has security because every airport has a threat, just like every CIT in every country faces a threat - but i don't see any other country employing their Army on CIT duties - because it's not a job for soldiers unless it's "jobs for the boys" as Dev highlighted above.

hedgehog
28th November 2010, 09:54
I worked alongside and under the Carabeneri and at one stage I had 2 under me as well,

I found them to be serious people who were constantly watching their backs- however when they got to know

you they were great.



he Carabinieri are a gendarmerie and thus part of the Italian armed forces

Up to about 7 years ago- they were a part of the Ministry of Justice (their paymasters) but the responsibility
for them was taken over by Defence-

Its important to note that they are a Gendarmerie but they are NOT part of the Army. Its like saying the Red Cross here which is under the DOD is part of the Army.

When they switched from Justice to Defence- they were paid by both Departments for about 9 months- when the mistake was noticed- they said they would strike if the Govt sought to reclaim the money- there are over 100,000 serving members and their exers permenate every strata of Italian life - It is also a family organisation like Guinessess was here. so therefore their lobbying abilities are amazing.

When we were in SFOR with them - I found that they seemed to get a horn out of arresting British Squaddies, we used to have to go in front of them to look after the Squaddie .

The poor Squaddie would be down from somewhere unpleasent and relaxing with a few shandies ( a bit like us coming down from the hills into Naquoara)

Connaught Stranger
28th November 2010, 11:19
Here in Romania for example individual banks contract the security of their money shipments to individual Private security companies, and banks (not the military) these companies legally carry anything from 9mm up to and including AKM (Kalashnikov) 74's or even foreign weapons of similar caliber, some banks maintain a discreet presence of an armed security guard next to the door also sporting a pepper spray and baton with 3+ AKM armed members in a ready room ready to employ if the panic button is pushed.

From my own military experience in Ireland between 1976 - 1997 C.I.T. works and it also keeps the P.D.F. in the Public Eye doing a necessary job, remove them from this, and next the whingers of the great unwashed will start to whine why do we need a P.D.F. / R.D.F. just to lie around in Barracks all day at the taxpayers expense doing nothing when the money could be better used to pay them more dole.

Fvck the begrudges I say.:-D

Flamingo
28th November 2010, 11:40
Would I be right in assuming
1. That the decision to use the Army to provide armed escorts for cash in transit was a response to the robbery of this cash by armed terrorists using the proceeds to fund their actions against both the Irish state and the British state?
2. The investigation and prosecution of the perpetrators of these robberies will provide a cost to the state that probably will be far in excess of the prevention of them in the first place (after all, BoI or AIB won't fund that).
3. The army in this context are providing "aid to the civil power" (in the same way the BA was in NI)?
4. The decision to use the army was that they were / are a ready resource of trained personnel that is not removing the limited number of armed Gardai from other frontline duties (or important coffee / doughnut related activities) :-D.
5. In a country with limited resources, both financial and manpower, it makes sense to utilise all resources in a pragmatic manner (after all, both Army and Gardai are paid from the same tax pool). Especially in light of the current financial situation, it makes sense.
6. Provision of CIT by "private" security would be difficult, both from a personnel vetting point of view, and also as (I'm assuming) they couldn't be armed, their only response to either the IRA or the Dondons rolling up with AK47's would be "Stop or I'll shine my Maglite at you".
7. Participation in these duties is experience in operating as a small team, utilising military skills and "giving the uniforms a bit of an airing" :-D.

On balance, although it's probably boring as hell at times for the participants, and certainly nothing like operating as part of a fire-team in Helmand, it's probably a beneficial thing to all concerned, looking at the bigger picture.

IMHO :biggrin:

Goldie fish
28th November 2010, 11:54
At last, someone who sees the bigger picture.

DeV
28th November 2010, 12:09
The Caribineiri are a para-military Military Police force that are part of the Italian Armed Forces (they aren't a para-military police force!).



finally - someone has seen the light - the Irish DF providing armed escorts to CIT is exactly what i said it was - "jobs for the boys", i'm glad we agree on something Dev!!
I stated elsewhere that taking ATCP from the armed would mean having to recruit a large number of Gardai that would be much more expensive.

The same then could be said for us putting a brigade minus on the border or the British Army putting 3 brigades in NI!


From my own military experience in Ireland between 1976 - 1997 C.I.T. works and it also keeps the P.D.F. in the Public Eye doing a necessary job, remove them from this, and next the whingers of the great unwashed will start to whine why do we need a P.D.F. / R.D.F. just to lie around in Barracks all day at the taxpayers expense doing nothing when the money could be better used to pay them more dole.
There is still a definite threat to CIT vehicles therefore if the PDF weren't doing the job armed Gardai would be required.

Well said Flamingo!

Connaught Stranger
28th November 2010, 13:35
There is still a definite threat to CIT vehicles therefore if the PDF weren't doing the job armed Gardai would be required.

Well said Flamingo!


In my time the cough . . . "terrorists" found it much easier to target actual banks than take on a CIT on the move, often hitting a bank or P.O. after a delivery, another point you never really knew what was happening with regards the delivery could be cash bundles / coins, or they were picking up cashed cheques being returned to the Central bank or Bank H.Q.
In that time there was not much point in targeting a van and ending up with a load of useless paper.

Connaught Stranger.

sofa
28th November 2010, 19:48
Britain have the likes of Wimbledon. Horse of the year show. changing of the guard etc

to keep there military in the public eye. We have thou more serous and necessary, cit.

Connaught Stranger
28th November 2010, 20:41
Britain have the likes of Wimbledon. Horse of the year show. changing of the guard etc

to keep there military in the public eye. We have thou more serous and necessary, cit.

Fair enough comment, off-topic as it is, however, it must be pointed out that Wimbledon & the Horse of the Year show are not occurring 52 weeks of the year, as for the Changing of the Guard, that's a military tradition which also draws the personnel involved from a large pool of personnel, many of whom have served recently in combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and prior to that in Northern Ireland.

Connaught Stranger.

Goldie fish
28th November 2010, 20:50
Changing the guard? Large pool?

5 Guards Battalions, 1 Cavalry regiment? Spread all over whitehall..

danno
28th November 2010, 20:58
CIT is risk required armed duty,Changing of guard is unarmed duty aimed at the tourist market.

Connaught Stranger
28th November 2010, 20:58
Well in my opinion it is a large pool, and is it not 5 Regiments of Guards?

and they still get to serve in the front-lines.

If I am not mistaken even the Gurkha's have done Palace duty in the past.

Connaught Stranger.

Connaught Stranger
28th November 2010, 20:59
CIT is risk required armed duty,Changing of guard is unarmed duty aimed at the tourist market.

Run that bit by me in "Engrish" please:tongue:

Connaught Stranger.

RoyalGreenJacket
28th November 2010, 21:00
Changing the guard? Large pool?

5 Guards Battalions, 1 Cavalry regiment? Spread all over whitehall..

it's not only the Guards and Cav who do public duties, all other units in the British Army rotate through it too.

so a pool of over 100,000 men i would say is indeed - a 'large pool'.

Goldie fish
28th November 2010, 21:02
Changing of the guard are unarmed. Its ceremonial only. Protection details carry the bang bangs. While there are 5 regiments of guards, none of them are larger than batallion in size.

CiT as we all know carry real bullets.

Connaught Stranger
28th November 2010, 21:13
Changing of the guard are unarmed. Its ceremonial only. Protection details carry the bang bangs. While there are 5 regiments of guards, none of them are larger than batallion in size.

CiT as we all know carry real bullets.

I see your point, but, why does the thread seem to descending into a "Them v. Us" theme.

All the British Army are NOT in London doing a swan batt at the same time,

the same as not all the P.D.F. in Ireland are doing CIT at the same time.

Different horse for courses in reality.

Even when I was serving on the border, military patrols were routinely dispatched to un-manned border crossing and to various locations throughout the Battalion area to keep us in the public eye, so the tax-payer could see that they were getting something for their dosh.

Connaught Ranger.

RoyalGreenJacket
28th November 2010, 21:23
Changing of the guard are unarmed. Its ceremonial only. Protection details carry the bang bangs. While there are 5 regiments of guards, none of them are larger than batallion in size.

CiT as we all know carry real bullets.

Goldie - as i pointed out - it's not only the Guards and Cav who do public duties and -

ALL soldiers on Public Guard Duty are live armed - it is still performed as an actual Guard Duty just like it would be back in battalion however this one is in public.

so our bullets are also real and in most instances the men carrying them have been involved in real combat too.

DeV
28th November 2010, 21:50
MOD: Topic has been debated and is now going off topic, thread closed