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Thorpe
30th January 2003, 12:25
According to BBC online the Royal Navy are st to order two new aircraft carriers to replace their existing fleet.
New Carriers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2706727.stm)

LordFlash
30th January 2003, 13:09
The Royal Navy always gets priority in budget over the Army in the UK.
I think the only major purchases for the Army in the near future will be the Apache.

Aidan
30th January 2003, 13:41
These carriers are the result of a major defence review in the UK about 4-5 years ago, the competition for the contract to design and build them is almost over though; its between Thales and Bae, with Bae looking likely to have pulled it out of the bag at the last minute (albeit with some of the work done by Thales).

They will be about 60,000 tonnes apiece and are supposed to enter service in 2012 and 2015. They went right back to basics on the air arm, and considered everything from a navalised EF2000 to F/A-18E/Fs to Rafale to JSF, with the JSF winning out in the end (that story ain't over yet though).

The British Army have done very well over the recent past, getting the Challenger 2, the AS90, Merlin and Apache in pretty short order. That said, the MRAV project is still going ahead, I also seem to remember them ordering 800 PIV and they still retain an interest in the FCS programme. They do ok ...

Thorpe
30th January 2003, 14:36
http://wwwi.reuters.com/images/2003-01-29T143925Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OUKTP-ARMS-BRITAIN-CARRIER.jpg
Found this while tring to find out moe about the new carriers. Does`nt look half bad but its not on the scale of the American Super Carriers

Goldie fish
30th January 2003, 17:08
There was mention of this ship on paxwells show the other night..the MOD havent much confidence with BaE systems as all their recent contracts have been completed late. The British is best idea wont wash either,as BAE is mostly us owned nowdays. Thales is favoured by those in the know,and the capabilities of both design is identical. It is a return to Conventional carriers for the RN..instead of the STVOL of the current 3 mini carriers.
The oldies may be converted to heli carriers like HMS Ocean

Aidan
30th January 2003, 17:50
In an interesting aside Goldie, when the Ark Royal left for the gulf, she carried no fixed wing aircraft, just helicopters.

Thing is, last I heard, the two new carriers were going to be STOVL ships too, just a lot bigger. If you look at the prow of the Ship in the pic that Thorpe posted you can see a ski-ramp.

That all depends on the survival of the STOVL JSF though, which seems less than certain. If it does fall by the wayside, the JSF/B (F-35B) can be expected to take the slack ...

One of the downsides of a STOVL carrier is that it can't launch fixed wing AEW aircraft like the E-2C, which the French carrier can. Expect that particular requirement for the RN to be met by an AEW version of the Merlin or V-22 ...

yellowjacket
30th January 2003, 19:29
Seems BAe got the contract after all. Thales will get a significant workshare though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2706727.stm

paul g
30th January 2003, 20:01
Aidan,

Helicopters are harder to ferry out to the Gulf, and the limited number of sea harriers the Invincibles carry make it not worth it, especially despite Sinbad, Iraq doesn't have a navy. As for the ski-jump, these carriers will be in service till 2050, when yours truly will be 84 if he's still around, and probably beyond. Therefore, the design to some extent will be tailored to encompass the F-35 replacement, especially if advances in UCAVs bring the pilot out of the cockpit .

Goldie fish
31st January 2003, 02:35
Yes,they are being described as "adaptable",with the CV design modified to operate STVOL in the short to medium tern,but with the flexibility to operate other types after the F35 has left service during the 2040s ( ;) some chance)
They will be built with the familiar Ski-Jump,but will have an angled deckdesigned to operate Catapult launched aircraft should it be required in the long term. They will be the largest warships built outside the US.The deal will cost about £2.9Billion

I got this email shortly after posting the earlier message...

BAE WINS NAVY CONTRACT


The Government has announced that two new Royal Navy aircraft carriers will be built by an alliance led by British firm BAE Systems.

Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon ended weeks of speculation by awarding the £2.9bn contract to a partnership between BAE Systems and French-owned company Thales UK.

BAE Systems will be the prime contractor and the two ships will be built entirely in the UK.
The carriers will be the UK's biggest warships. Both will be designed and built in Britain and are scheduled to enter service in 2012 and 2015.

The announcement will safeguard 10,000 jobs in four shipyards - BAE Systems Marine at Govan, Glasgow, Vosper Thornycroft at Portsmouth, Swan Hunter on Tyneside and Babcock BES at Rosyth - and create another 2,000 posts.

Mr Hoon told MPs this "innovative approach" was "good news for our armed forces and good news for the nation's defence".

BAE Systems will lead the partnership as "preferred prime contractor," with responsibility for project and shipbuilding management, while Thales UK assumes the role of "key supplier of the whole ship design", Mr Hoon said.

Shadow Defence Secretary Bernard Jenkin said that Mr Hoon had "bottled out" by deciding to "artificially" split the work between the two main competitors for the project.

He said: "This is not so much a decision as a fudge."


The details of the deal (http://www.futureaircraftcarrier.co.uk/newsdetails.asp?ID=92)
This confuses me a bit..whose design are they accepting? Both are different,if similar. Thorpe has the BAE design above..
Here is the Thales option..
http://www.mod.uk/img/dpa/secondimage_small.jpg

and the BAE design
http://www.mod.uk/img/dpa/Adapted%20design%20above_small.jpg

Nice...
By then Roisin will be doing all our naval duties probably,with a crew of 5 and armed with a starting pistol..

andy
31st January 2003, 20:41
I was just comparing the Charles De Gaulle to the new British aircraft carriers. I must admit Im not a fan of the 'ramp' remaining in the new design. The french design doesnt have it, even though it is a smaller carrier.

CHARLES DE GAULLE - SPECIFICATION
Crew 1,150 ship's crew, 550 aircrew, 50 air support staff
Accommodation 1,950 plus short term accommodation for 800 marines
Aircraft 40
Dimensions
Displacement 38,000 tonnes
Length 261.5 m
Flight deck 261 x 64 m
Flight deck area 12,000 square m
Beam at waterline 31.5 m
Draft maximum 8.45 m
Aircraft hangar, floor area 4,070 square m
Aircraft hangar, ceiling height 6.1 m
Propulsion 56,000 kW
Power supply 20,400 kW

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/cdg26-1.jpg

Little Legionnare
3rd February 2003, 18:03
WHile I love the Charles De Gualle, don't get me wrong, it hjas several operational weaknesses nat put it behind the times. While it incoperated stealth technolgy, it was some of the most basic types. It only operates 40 aircraft, I think 55-60 is a better number for european countries. it has way too high of a crew. It is also two slow, and could use a better armerment. Also to note France is launching a simler carrier program that will be CTOL for the far more capable Rafles and Hawkeye 2000s.

John
4th February 2003, 09:30
From defence-aerospace.com

Britain and France to announce plans for European naval force: reports

LONDON, Feb 4 (AFP) - 03:37 GMT - Britain and France will use a joint summit Tuesday to announce plans for a European naval force equipped with an aircraft carrier battle group on standby at all times, newspapers here reported.

Any carrier would likely be used in European humanitarian and peacekeeping missions, according to reports.

"We are talking about peace support and humanitarian operations," The Times quoted a British defence official as saying.

"We are not talking about relying on France for the defence of Britain."

The announcement will come in a joint declaration to be published by British Prime Minister Tony Blair and French President Jacques Chirac who meet for a day of talks in the northern French beach resort of Le Touquet.

"France and the United Kingdom emphasise that air-naval capabilities are a key element in power projection," says the document seen by The Daily Telegraph.

"The objective will be to have one European aircraft carrier permanently available," it adds.

According to The Times, the arrangement will also involve Italy and Spain, which like France have one carrier each. It added that the four countries would collaborate over the timing of training, as well as refits and maintenance of carriers.

Britain has three carriers, one of which, Ark Royal, is heading to the Gulf in readiness for a US-led war with Iraq.

Military cooperation between Britain and France shifted up a gear last week after London awarded part of a new aircraft carrier contract to French arms group Thales.

British defence company BAE Systems was chosen as prime contractor to build the two new carriers.

According to industry journal Defence Analysis, out Tuesday, Blair blocked a decision to award Thales a bigger slice of the contract over anger at Chirac's stance on Iraq and Zimbabwe.

British officials said Monday that Blair would use the Franco-British summit to try to woo Chirac closer towards the US line on the Iraqi crisis.

Recently returned from a trip to the US, where he won from President George W. Bush guarded acceptance of a second UN resolution to authorise force against Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, Blair would seek to persuade Chirac to make a similar concession by allowing the case for military action, the officials said.

The strategy was aimed at limiting European divisions over Iraq -- exposed last week when eight leaders signed an open letter urging solidarity with Washington -- and drawing France away from the clear-cut rejection of war adopted by German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.

Franco-British relations have suffered badly in recent weeks. The Le Touquet summit was supposed to take place in December but was postponed after a public spat between Blair and Chirac in Brussels over EU farm reform.

The British government is meanwhile furious with France for inviting Zimbabwean leader Robert Mugabe to an African summit in France this month, in defiance of an EU travel ban to protest against Mugabe's human rights abuses.

paul g
4th February 2003, 18:13
it has been suggested that in fact there will be three carriers built, gicen that the Charles De Gaulle is limited in capability, is a nuclear ship, a bad mistake, along with being rather slow, that ordering a carrier sinmilar to the british one, (which will after all be a frnch Thales design) is a seriuos option.