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Turkey
1st December 2003, 06:03
Mod, please feel free to move this as you see fit.
It has been suggested that one possable change for the Irish Air Corps is the sale of Baldonnel.
While I would be in favor of a fairly drastic overhaul of the Air Corps, I don't think I can swallow this one.
One possablity is the sale of the base as a working airport, this does seem very sensible, spend a few million on it and a very good airport could result, the objections of the local residents are, strangely enough, not too relevent, there was an airport there long before them. The approch road would have to be improved or replaced, no argument there, even if it continues as an air base, the damn road wants work! But from a flying point of veiw, I am told that the largest aircraft it is normaly suitable for is a Boeing 737, this need not be a problem, as this is one of the most common modern aircrafts, and removing even some of them from Dublin airport would be a great help.
It does seem that it could be easly turned into a cargo only airport, there is plenty of warehousing space, [I would not imagin aircrafts being stored there], and with road improvments, acess to communication via the N7, it would not be difficult to add a rail link, [equaly applicable to passanger work too], the Dublin/Cork line passes fairly close to one side and Brennans toyland magic tramway is close to the other. But major runway extensions would be needed to handle large cargo aircrafts, while there is the space, I think, it would add considerably to the cost.
Housing or industrial use are other possablities, or are they? I think this is far less possable then many would imagin, the general area seems not to be short of building land, and this huge demand for housing may not continue for much longer, I must confess to have very little understanding of the driving forces behind housing marketing and demand, but certainly as a package of land it would appear suitable, but no more then any other big flat space.
It is wishfull thinking to belive, however, that there would be any financial gain for the DF/DoD from this, even if there were money gained, say by the sale to private enterprise,[ this remains optional] it would be quickly sponged up by mcgreedy for his horsey friends.
There is then the thorny problem of what happens to the Air-Corps, but I'll have to leave that for a futher post.
Comments on this lot anyone???????

FMolloy
1st December 2003, 15:05
This post is very relevant, so it stays here.

While the plan may work in theory, the sceptic in me believes that the AC would come off second best as a result.

As Turkey says, there's no guarantee the money generated from any sales or rental of space would be ploughed back into the AC. I also believe that eventually the private end of things would push the AC into a tiny corner of the Don, with military operations becoming secondary to commercial concerns.

Incidentally, the billboards advertising the nearbuy business park once featured a picture of a passenger jet. Coincidence?

Lordinajamjar
4th December 2003, 07:08
xxxxx

FMolloy
4th December 2003, 14:34
It's only a hobby anyway right?

Is this a joke? Keep you're posts on topic.

Lordinajamjar
4th December 2003, 18:01
xxxxx

macca
5th December 2003, 14:59
Turkey, it makes no odds who was there first, the residents or the airfield, they still have a legal right to object to any development or even current practice, even if they have just moved into the area.

Turkey
6th December 2003, 21:06
Macca, that would not suprise me if it was true, 'does sound a bit Oirish thou'


Lordinajamjar................... oh, forget it!!!!!!

Goldie fish
6th December 2003, 21:34
Remember the locals in wicklow are objecting to the DF using the artillery ranges there,even though the DF were there long before the locals..

Lordinajamjar
6th December 2003, 22:04
xxxxx

faughanballagh
6th December 2003, 23:30
You also have to look at the fact that if this was sold and opened up to commercial possibilities, Dublin Airport wouldn't sit with it. Baldonnel would essentially become Ryanair International Airport, so there's a whole crapload of revenue lost by Dublin when they switch from to Baldonnel. It could easily become Stansted Part II at a time when Dublin probably wouldn't mind getting closer to being an international hub.

yellowjacket
7th December 2003, 00:07
Originally posted by lordinajamjar
and just maybe we will finally elect a goverment that will wake up to the fact that our current defence capabilities are sorely lacking.

Are you in the Phoenix-North or Phoenix-South constituency then? :)

Turkey
7th December 2003, 00:11
YJ, ya mean they have split the park in two! :D :D :D

Lordinajamjar
7th December 2003, 01:56
xxxxx

andy
31st December 2003, 21:44
I dont think selling Baldonnel would be good for the aircorps. However other airforces around the world share bases and it should be consider as an option. I think the brits do, dont they?

In fairness the government has put back most of the money from DF property sales back into re-equipment. If they did the same for money raised from say sharing it with cargo airlines, then it might be very worthwhile for the IAC.

Also as time goes on and the country gets richer, sooner or later the Government is going to HAVE to purchase 8/12 MODERN fighter jets. Its become clear its something we need and I think if we had them, it would satisfy most of our defence needs and the aircorps would look quite respectable abroad(historic moment!).

We may never join NATO but defending our own airspace is just one of those things were going to have to do. I dont know how much money would be generated from sharing an airbase but a joint airbase would help keep costs down and might provide pilots with those extra flying hours.

faughanballagh
1st January 2004, 00:25
Anyone else find it sad that another EU country will have to spend millions of euros to send some aircraft to patrol YOUR skies over EU summits? Not that I'm rubbing it in or anything, just that's the state it has come to. Heck even just 3 F-16s would be a start.

Aidan
2nd January 2004, 14:30
Also as time goes on and the country gets richer, sooner or later the Government is going to HAVE to purchase 8/12 MODERN fighter jets

why?

Victor
2nd January 2004, 20:45
Originally posted by Aidan
why? To stop me bombing the EU summits. :)

Operating public passenger services out of Baldonnel doesn't make a whole load of sense - yes you could fly Cork - Dublin (Collinstown), but then you would have to get the tram / train / bus / taxi to Baldonnel to get a flight to your eventual destination.

Executive and helicopter services might make sense as these involves the handling of very few passengers / cargo. Jim Mansfield may knock this on the head with Weston (he has one end of the runway in Dublin the other in Kildare, he just needs planning permission to connect the two).

The runways at Baldonnel need work (especially for heavy aircraft) and extending for very heavy aircraft. I suspect the number of aircraft movements from Baldonell at the moment mean it is underused.

A few possibilities exist:

1. Sell Baldonnel for development and move the AC elsewhere (Finner, Gormanstown, Galway, Shannon, Cork, Collinstown, The Curragh).

2. Sell Baldonnel to a private operator and have the AC pay landing fees.

3. Keep Baldonnel and use commercial income for upgrades.

4. Move Cathal Brugha units to Baldonnel, sell Cathal Brugha and keep McKee for Dublin RDF units.

andy
2nd January 2004, 23:36
why??



Its quite clear now that it is a requirment for Ireland to defend its airspace, otherwise we wouldnt have asked the RAF to do it for us. Since this has been agreed by the government, it also has to come to the conclusion that we cant go on forever asking the UK. So it has to be a matter of time before they buy something. The L-159 would do the job!!

Turkey
2nd January 2004, 23:55
Andy, before we get another dose of 'we do not need jets because i say so' from certain quarters.........:D
I agree that we should have a proper air-defence setup here, if for no other reason then to show that we are willing to defend what is ours.
But the L-159 is proveing to be a very limited aircraft indeed, we would probally be better off to wait for something better, but only if there is something in the pipeline.
As for Bal', whatever it's future is, there will have to be some re-building, would'ent be ironic if the protest-against-everything/anything brigade blocked any more modernisation on heratige/cultural grounds?:D

andy
3rd January 2004, 11:19
I only suggested the L-159 as something which would do the job, Im not saying the government should go out and buy it, but something has to be bought sooner or later.

Sharing Bal' should be an option seriously looked at, if it offered significant savings for the DF which could be spent elsewhere.

Tucco
3rd January 2004, 13:15
In Europe many military bases share with commerical operations.

However, the reason it can't really happen here is a simple one - Casement Aerodrome is the only secure military air base in the entire country.

As such it handles visits by UK Royals, takes in extradited crims like Gilligan etc.

In other countries they have many separate military only bases, along with those sharing with military.

However, just a note, the runways at Bal can already handle 737 & 146 type aircraft. Plus, the runways have already been upgraded in the 2003.;)

FMolloy
3rd January 2004, 15:03
The need for fighters can be discussed in another thread, please keep posts on topic.

Victor
3rd January 2004, 20:49
Originally posted by Tucco
However, the reason it can't really happen here is a simple one - Casement Aerodrome is the only secure military air base in the entire country. As such it handles visits by UK Royals, takes in extradited crims like Gilligan etc. In building the second runway at Dublin airport they could easily put in protected dispersal areas, secure boarding, etc.

Turkey
3rd January 2004, 21:09
Victor, you mean the proposed 2nd terminal???
No, they can't, IMHO a joint military commercial airport is not viable, espically as in this case it is the only base, and also, since the money greedy scum sold/are sellin Gormo', the primary training base too.
Tucco is right , the runways, recently repaired, can handle a large number of currently operational commercial aircrafts, but whole new terminal areas would need to be built.
However, it is my belife that even if Bal' were to remain military only[one can only hope] then a rebuild is still desirable, it is a 19-teenies airfield, with all, but one, of the hangers built faceing the wrong way, if you do not belive me go there when they are putting either of the Casa's in the engineering hanger.

Victor
3rd January 2004, 22:51
Originally posted by Turkey
Victor, you mean the proposed 2nd terminal??? No the second runway (technically a third). As it stands there are two east-west runways (one short) and one north-south. The proposal is to replace the short runway with a much longer one parallel to the existing main runway. Having two main runways more than doubles the number of available slots at peak time.
Originally posted by Turkey
Victor, you mean the proposed 2nd terminal???
No, they can't, IMHO a joint military commercial airport is not viable, espically as in this case it is the only base This need not be an issue as you could place the military side 3km from teh main terminal and 1km+ from the cargo terminals / service areas.

Groundhog
4th January 2004, 03:52
Is there a law that says the Air Corps must be based in Baldonnel? Sell the place for whatever purpose and open a couple of bases in other (cheaper) locations or put military areas in Shannon or Knock or wherever.

Tucco
4th January 2004, 17:14
Technically Dublin Airport has three runways already, so the new one would be the fourth.

However, it only has one classed as operational, Runway 28/10. (cat 3)

Of the other two, 16/34 is used as the crosswinds runway with full cat 3, with 11/29 rarely used at all - no cat 3.

Victor
4th January 2004, 21:17
Originally posted by Groundhog
Is there a law that says the Air Corps must be based in Baldonnel? Sell the place for whatever purpose and open a couple of bases in other (cheaper) locations or put military areas in Shannon or Knock or wherever. Not that I know of, however there are legal restrictions on what aircraft can use it. There was a hullabaloo a few years ago about some foreign VIP using a civilian aircraft there.
Originally posted by Tucco
Technically Dublin Airport has three runways already, so the new one would be the fourth. However, it only has one classed as operational, Runway 28/10. (cat 3) Of the other two, 16/34 is used as the crosswinds runway with full cat 3, with 11/29 rarely used at all - no cat 3. 11/29 would be closed (too close to new runway) and used as storage space, etc. and 28/10 would get a twin, with them called I believe "28/10 Left" and "28/10 Right".