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yellowjacket
9th January 2004, 02:08
Anyone have any information on the development of the Irish foot and arms drill style?

When was the first Irish drill manual published?
What drill was used by the volunteers?
Have there been many revisions?


Tom Garvin, in his book 1922 The Birth of Irish Democracy points out that the drill style was intentionally different from the British Army system, and suggests German influences in the form of Reichsweher officers who came on a training mission to Ireland in the 20's. There was also an Irish military mission to West Point in the same period.

Did these or other factors influence things much?

rod and serpent
9th January 2004, 13:05
Has any body seen the British Army foot drill manual its bloody enermous. To become a drill instructor you have to be at Corporal level and the course takes 6 weeks at the Guards depot pirbright. They even have drill competitions with other countries. Apparently the Guards drill instructors are the best in the British Army all 3 services have different methods of foot drill the RAF is the closest to the Army because they have their origins in the Royal Engineers. The Royal Navy has the quirkiest drill of all.

yellowjacket
9th January 2004, 13:16
Further research in G. White and B. O Sheas Irish Volunteer Soldier 1913-23 states that the Volunteers produced their first drill manual in 1917. This was called Slí na Saoirse and was basically an Irish translation of the British Infantry Manual 1911.

So when did they change over to the newer style?

FMolloy
9th January 2004, 13:42
I've seen pictures of Eoin O'Duffy giving a BA salute, both during the Civil War and the 1930's.

yooklid
9th January 2004, 16:09
I remember a pathe newsreal commenting that "their drill is nine tenths America". Of course, we don't know where the hell they got tht figure from

Truck Driver
10th January 2004, 01:05
Tom Garvin, in his book [i]1922 The Birth of Irish Democracy points out that the drill style was intentionally different from the British Army system, and suggests German influences in the form of Reichsweher officers who came on a training mission to Ireland in the 20's. There was also an Irish military mission to West Point in the same period.

Did these or other factors influence things much? [/B]

Funnily enough tthat you mention the US influence from West Point.
When I was in the US a few weeks ago, I visited the site of an old pre
Civil War fort. There was a display showing diagrams of US Army rifle drill movements. They seemed somewhat similar to the Irish Army
drill movements for the Lee Enfield. Can' t speak for the foot drill
movements, though....

Goldie fish
10th January 2004, 01:20
Then on the other hand,when the Cadets carried out the Funeral Drill at Arlington during JFKs funeral,the US army later adapted it..

yooklid
10th January 2004, 08:58
Goldie,

Is this true or another popular Irish myth?

-C

Truck Driver
10th January 2004, 20:46
I have digital photos of old US arms drill movements, from my visit to the
site of the old US Army fort I mentioned above.... they're on CD-ROM, so I'm
unsure how to transfer them over to here. If someone can tell me how I can transfer these from disk over to a mail on this site, I' ll post a few up.......

Heritage
11th January 2004, 01:44
There definitely was an American influence in the origins of Irish drill. This was quiet deliberate. As regards our pre-Steyr very impressive funeral drill, a Volunteer called John Pinkman writes in his book that it was designed by troops stationed in Beggars Bush Bks, between the Treaty and the Civil War.

This must read book is called " In the Legion of the Vanguard" by J Pinkman and edited by Francis E Maguire, published by Mercier Press, 1998

Heritage
11th January 2004, 01:52
Also, I have somewhere a manual of Battalion Drill, issued I think in 1923. I must put my hands on it!

macca
12th January 2004, 14:05
Saw footage of supposedly the biggest every Irish military salute at the Eucharistic Congress 1932. The Army officers all had swords, when did they stop using them?

Goldie fish
12th January 2004, 14:33
They didnt.

Bravo20
12th January 2004, 14:59
Army, Naval Service and Slua officers have swords. FCA officers don't.

yellowjacket
12th January 2004, 15:11
Would you trust a FCA officer with an edged weapon? :D

Groundhog
12th January 2004, 16:24
As regards our pre-Steyr very impressive funeral drill,

The good news is that the arms drill is being changed. So we all get to learn new stuff. Sometime.

Goldie fish
13th January 2004, 08:47
Is there any logical reason why it is being changed? I am not complaining...It annoys me to hear recruits complaining of stiff wrists from marching with the steyr... My Left Collar Bone still resembles the outline of the bolt on the Lee Enfield,from the wonderful Aistrigh Airm.
And they have no Lagaigh airm either....thats just unfair. No generation should be denied the pleasure of that drill movement..

Seriously though,it is terrible to see drill being preformed so sloppily,when it is so simple. They need a challenge. Plus there is variations as to how certain movements are preformed..depending on the unit....and dont give me the "manual" story..cos the manual in places,if not wrong,is in fact very vague..

parkman
13th January 2004, 08:59
Arms drill and foot drill lost out with the passing of the Lee-Enfield rifle and hobnail boots.The Irish present arms [a cross between the British and French present] I believe was the most stilish to be seen anywhere.Has anybody ever seen a battalion fix bayonets with the old Lee-Enfields?And the arms drill for military funerals --reversed arms,resting on arms reversed--brillant.
I remember going into town as a young lad in the early 50s to see the Easter parade.You would see the National colours and then the brigade colours and then the bayonets and the sound of the hobnail boots marching in step to Clares dragoons and then the roar of the spitfires as they swooped low over O'Connell street.
Perhaps the Lee-Enfield and the hobnail boots could have been kept for ceremomial occasions

Goldie fish
13th January 2004, 09:06
True. My mother always tells of the Eucharistic Processions of the 50s and 60s,with the sound of Hobnail boots marching up the marble floors of the church,and the brass Butt Plate striking the ground...
Ah nostalgia....

rod and serpent
14th January 2004, 18:41
Not hob nailed boots but Ammo boots.

parkman
15th January 2004, 09:45
Yes you're dead right--"ammo boots" that opens up the old war wounds.

Talking about drill and the like.Years ago I was a member of a bearer party at a military funeral.A retired CO of the unit had gone to his eternal reward.Anyway we had placed the coffin in the hearse and had fallen back in with the escort.Problem was we had our caps off while the rest of the escort has theirs on.The officer seeing this said "the caps lads the caps"where upon those who were bearheaded put their caps on while those with them on took them off,much to the amusement of the congregation

Bravo20
15th January 2004, 10:35
You could always have claimed it was a special funeral drill.

Bailer
16th January 2004, 18:36
<font face="tahoma" color="#ff9900">Ah Arms and Foot drill. My recruit Plt. was the last in our unit to do a full arms and footdrill display at the passing out Parade. The only drill we didn't do was the Funeral drill but we did practice it.

I remember doing arms drill in the old car park beside the dining hall in the Glen (before the Trees were chopped down) and doing the Aistrig Airm and dropping the FN every 2 minutes becuase the handguard was soaked in sweat!! (not to mention the lovely OG shirt, there was a peculiar smell off them when soaked in sweat). Also trying not to faint when your NCO has you at Aistrigh Airm, uimhir a Do for 5 minutes. Doing the Tairgig(?) Airm until you felt as if your muscles would pop from the strain. Losing the Feeliing in yor right arm after marching any distance with the rifle. And the pain of washing gun grease (which got on every exposed skin of your body) off your extremely red sunburn.

Caching the Cocking handle in your web belt (because you ALWAYS wore a web Belt) when doing the Suihig Airm. Trying not to poke yourself in the eye with the muzzle while doing a Dearcaigh Fo Dheis

Ah happy days I think I'll go Cry now.

</font>

Seriously though they should scrap the Slinged Arms drill with the Steyr. and do it like we did with the FN!

Goldie fish
17th January 2004, 00:52
I hear(though I may be wrong on this) that the new drill will be similar to the Australian Drill. Do any of our Antipodean members know anything about this drill?
I assume the "present" would remain similar to what it is today,and not follow the Commonwealth trend.

Groundhog
17th January 2004, 12:59
Neascaigh Beagnaití. My brother was on a GOC's inspection once with the FN. When he was bringing the bayonet around to fix it on the rifle he hit his hand off the elbow of the man on his right and the bayonet went whirling through the air and landed on the square a couple of yards behind the company. As luck would have it he was in the back rank of the second company back or the bayonet might have lodged in somebody. Anyway what could he do but duck down, duck walk back, fix bayonet, duck walk back into the ranks and stand up just in time for the Present Arms.

As for the FN. Try doing the AD with those effing white gloves on. I dropped my rifle in the middle of Clonmel one day in front of the Italian Ambassador. Fortunately I caught it before it hit the ground. If Commandants only knew what goes on in the ranks behind them there would never be a ceremonial parade.

Parkman- there should have been a man detailed to carry the bearer party's caps. And once the coffin is in the hearse he hands each man his cap from behind over the shoulder. On the order Cludaigh (not the caps lads the caps), the bearer party puts on it's head dress.

hptmurphy
17th January 2004, 15:34
Always found the trick with the woolen white gloves was to wet them...........The nicest crack fom the hand guard on the FN was when the screws were loosened slightly mind you...as I will never forget the look on the POs face as 30 hand gaurds hit the ground during the aistrig airm........

Great punishment for recruits was to carry out the first part of the Tarrig airm and then have them remove the left hand.....leavivng them to hold the weapon out from the body by the pistol grip...and then the NCO .....has a smoke while watching the recruits writhe in pain.........Who remembers the arm strenghtening exercises for the FN :-patriot:

parkman
19th January 2004, 08:43
One trick which helped to bring a little jollity to foot drill was if we got around the corner before the nco was to run like blazes and turn the next corner before he rounded the first.Great to see a corporal asking did anybody see me bleedin section.
Another favorite was to pretend not to hear the about turn and to march out the gate onto the South Circular Road.

parkman
19th January 2004, 11:48
I recall one particular Easter parade.We had a large number of recruits who you really could not let out in public.So it was decieded that they would ride in the back of a truck.Now there was some units up from Wexford who had the same problem, so all the recruits from the different units were loaded into the trucks.
Now our company were issued with Lee-Enfields which had woodwork of a very dark tan.The wexford units had rifles of a light tan.Our recruits took a shine to the rifles of the Wexford recruits and somewhere between Griffith Bks and O'Connell street the rifles were exchanged.So now our lads had the Wexford rifles and they had ours.
None of this was noticed until long after the Wexford lads had departed and our lads were handing back in their rifles to the QMS. Well the air turned blue.Those recruits in one short minute were on the receiving end of one of the most colourful b*****ings I have ever had the pleasure of hearing

Groundhog
19th January 2004, 17:18
Oh God.

As embarrassing as the Mil College having to phone about every unit in the army because some cadet had left a SINCGARS in the back of a Nissan on an exercise. He wasn't sure what unit the Nissan belonged to so a poll was conducted of every unit in the DF. Mind you nobody was advertising the fact that they were up a radio either. :D

yooklid
20th January 2004, 02:51
Originally posted by parkman
.....Those recruits in one short minute were on the receiving end of one of the most colourful b*****ings I have ever had the pleasure of hearing

This is beautiful. Pure poetry.

parkman
22nd January 2004, 10:27
The slope arms with the Lee-Enfield with bayonet fixed was really a dangerious move.The rifle was trown accross the body in the direction of your comrades head .On one occasion I recall a lad getting a very serious gash to his head,nearly lost an ete.

parkman
30th January 2004, 10:11
One of the worst displays of marching I have ever witnessed was at the military parade in O'Connell Street which was held to commerate the ending of UN service in the Leb [was it last year?].A very fine parade was marred by the pathetic attempt at marching in step by the Aer Corps unit .To say they were woeful would be charitable.I can only imagine the embarrisment of CinC and Brass on the saluting platform.To a certain extent the day was saved by the Naval service who were immediately behind them

Goldie fish
30th January 2004, 13:05
In fairness the Air Corpse have been out of the wheel for so long,they must have forgotten they were in the DF,and thought it was just a sunday morning stroll.

FMolloy
2nd February 2004, 15:59
I remember the last national day of commemoration that I took part in. At the end of the ceremony we were marched out of Kilmainham Hospital, my party at the front. about 3 minutes after we started we had to change step because the Air Corp contingent behind us had started off on the wrong foot & messed up the entire parade.

Bravo20
2nd February 2004, 16:00
I think I remember that one

Goldie fish
2nd February 2004, 16:21
I think the whole country remembers that...

rod and serpent
2nd February 2004, 20:58
Dont you just hate that when it happens.

parkman
3rd February 2004, 07:45
I suppose no matter how bad they are at least one of them is in step.----On second thoughts , scrap that it requires two for one to be in step.

rod and serpent
25th November 2008, 22:55
[MOD: Superbly merged threads]



Do the Irish Army have a drill school. We have one in Pirbright, Surrey.

Docman
26th November 2008, 00:45
We barely have a drill manual. You go into different Barracks across the country and you will find 100 different ways of doing drill.

turbocalves
26th November 2008, 00:52
We barely have a drill manual. You go into different Barracks across the country and you will find 100 different ways of doing drill.

Here Here!

how i long for a drill manual i can make sense of......

saw a doc, in the intray in the office clarifying how ceremonial drill was to be done.....
seems who ever wrote it was tryin to rectify some problems,

though i didnt get to read it as i was busy :frown:

rod and serpent
26th November 2008, 01:14
We barely have a drill manual. You go into different Barracks across the country and you will find 100 different ways of doing drill.


We have a drill manual, also, we have two courses dedicated to ceremonial drill.

hedgehog
26th November 2008, 09:05
We have a drill manual, also, we have two courses dedicated to ceremonial drill.

We have a manual of foot drill thats in the process of being updated

saying that- its a bloody good manual,

We also have a Manual of Arms drill as well

We don't do separate courses for Drill as we learn that

In Recruit Training

we practice it on our 3 stars (and do more advanced)

we practice as part of a rostered programme (between 0830 and 0900 and 1330 and 1400)

we practice it again when we require it.

We learn to teach it on our Pot NCO Cse and we further practice it

we learn to supervise and teach more advanced on our Standard cse

and further practice etc

we learn to do more advanced Coy Drill on Snr NCO CSes

and we practice it further




Here Here!

how i long for a drill manual i can make sense of......

saw a doc, in the intray in the office clarifying how ceremonial drill was to be done.....
seems who ever wrote it was tryin to rectify some problems,

though i didnt get to read it as i was busy
Thats the fault of your unit and NOT the Army



We barely have a drill manual. You go into different Barracks across the country and you will find 100 different ways of doing drill
As stated we do have the manuals- so your wrong on point 1

and the dfferent drill is the fault of the Officers and NCO's in that they are accepting

variations on the Manual

I kind of figure your an Officer/NCO Doc

when you seen these 100 different ways of doing drill

whose attention did you bring it to

if you did then sit back and grin smugly

if you just looked on and tut tuted


then maybe your in the wrong

luchi
26th November 2008, 10:19
So when is this new manual for COFD comming out?

There have been changes to COFD over the years. Yet no up dated manual. So if you are doing a drill movement and someone says you are wrong because its not the way it is in the manual where do you go to get the doc that says it was changed?

concussion
26th November 2008, 10:43
So when is this new manual for COFD comming out?

There have been changes to COFD over the years. Yet no up dated manual. So if you are doing a drill movement and someone says you are wrong because its not the way it is in the manual where do you go to get the doc that says it was changed?


What changes, excluding those arising from a change in rifles, have there been?

DeV
26th November 2008, 11:18
The foot drill manual we have is from the 50s (so written in 50s language - has Irish on one side of page & english on the other (with orders in both languages).

The Arms Drill manual is a lot more up to date as it is based on the Steyr.



We have a drill manual, also, we have two courses dedicated to ceremonial drill.

All DF NCOs are qualified to instruct drill as part of their Pot NCOs Course, if I'm not mistaken this is not the case in the British Army.

Groundhog
26th November 2008, 11:29
The foot drill manual we have is from the 50s (so written in 50s language - has Irish on one side of page & english on the other (with orders in both languages)...

So what do you want, a mnul in txt spk?:biggrin:

concussion
26th November 2008, 12:55
Dnt bthr 2 lft de knee prrl - it tks 2 mch f-rt

hedgehog
26th November 2008, 13:00
So when is this new manual for COFD comming out?

There have been changes to COFD over the years. Yet no up dated manual. So if you are doing a drill movement and someone says you are wrong because its not the way it is in the manual where do you go to get the doc that says it was changed?

WHat changes have there been

In so far as I am aware there has been NO significant

change except - for when you see 'Man or body of men'

but there was a TI out years ago saying

the Masculine is taken to read as the feminine etc etc

WilcoOut
26th November 2008, 14:02
We barely have a drill manual. You go into different Barracks across the country and you will find 100 different ways of doing drill.


i second that!

some units in the same barracks have different ways of falling out, in, stopping(ie what foot the stad is given)

i even know of a unit that practised footdrill, deliberatly givin wrong commands for an upcoming event to see how the privates reacted.

queue complete disaster of footdrill, falling, stepping on heels, you name it.

then queue NCO's distributing bollckings for said privates making it look bad

piper_69
26th November 2008, 14:16
[QUOTE=WilcoOut;227854]i second that!

some units in the same barracks have different ways of falling out, in, stopping(ie what foot the stad is given)

Most units teach recruits the halt on the left foot to give them time to stop correctly.
This is actually the halt from the double.
The halt from the quick march is supposed to be given on the right foot.

There is a manual of arms drill for the Steyr published in June 1988.

hedgehog
26th November 2008, 14:17
i second that!

some units in the same barracks have different ways of falling out, in, stopping(ie what foot the stad is given)

i even know of a unit that practised footdrill, deliberatly givin wrong commands for an upcoming event to see how the privates reacted.

queue complete disaster of footdrill, falling, stepping on heels, you name it.

then queue NCO's distributing bollckings for said privates making it look bad

Those pesky Privates

always getting up to mischief

Now if there was only a means of supervising them and ensuring they do what they

signed up to do

and say if there was a way- we could call it the chain of command

where we appoint COmmanding Officers to supervise there Platoon COmmanders

and we could put in a tier of Ranks called NCO's

wouldnt life be great

and then we wouldnt no couldnt blame the Army

for all the short comings

luchi
26th November 2008, 14:34
I know I have been accused of sleeping with my DSOs but I don't have the COFD manual to hand to what changes do I think were made in the last 28 years....

Lets start with falling out troops.

Where is the command in the manual for partial left/right wheel.
What normally sounds like
"Clea gusseeg arigh" ( I am trying to be phonetic here so please no spelling correctors)
There is the mark time.

All relatively minor changes but variations none the same. So if a 3* comes back from the Pots Crse and says "Thats not the way we were shown to do it" do you refer to the, as Dev says, the 1950 manual or is there some more up to date reference.

rod and serpent
26th November 2008, 14:46
Do your SNCO`s use pacesticks to drill with.

Docman
26th November 2008, 15:00
As stated we do have the manuals- so your wrong on point 1

and the dfferent drill is the fault of the Officers and NCO's in that they are accepting

variations on the Manual

I kind of figure your an Officer/NCO Doc

when you seen these 100 different ways of doing drill

whose attention did you bring it to

if you did then sit back and grin smugly

if you just looked on and tut tuted

then maybe your in the wrong

Hedgie, I'm surprised at you.
Technically, it is not a manual - it is a Training Regulation - TR-620. And I said it was barely a manual, not that we didn't have one.

There are numerous problems with the Irish Drill manual. The Arms Drill manual (an actual manual) is probably one of our better written manuals and very easy to understand & use.

The Foot Drill manual is a nightmare as you have to trawl through it to find what you are looking for, and it is horrendously out of date, using old Irish words which no longer exist. If you want, I can point out exactly where there are problems but I don't think we have the bandwidth. A lot of the easier stuff is ok to read and understand but a lot of it is a nightmare.

2 off the top of my head - Lig amach and Buailig Am.

As for bringing it to someones attention???? Everyone knows it is a clusterF&%&. I have read the manual from cover to cover several times and I cannot be a judge of what is correct and incorrect. Yes, on a lot of things, the manual is quite clear and there is no arguing but on many more it is not clear.

For example, put students from the 3 brigades together and tell them to fall out and then watch 2 different ways of doing..... and noone can prove they are right or wrong because the manual is not clear.

Also, It is a CSs & SMs job to deal with Drill. Not passing the buck but who wants to argue with them? In saying that, I once watch 2 CS's argue about drill - Both had manuals in their hands and both were able to find paragraphs that supported their argument. Take the old drill competitions that used to be run - 5 different ways of doing drill and all get high points.

WilcoOut
26th November 2008, 15:04
Those pesky Privates

always getting up to mischief

Now if there was only a means of supervising them and ensuring they do what they

signed up to do

and say if there was a way- we could call it the chain of command

where we appoint COmmanding Officers to supervise there Platoon COmmanders

and we could put in a tier of Ranks called NCO's

wouldnt life be great

and then we wouldnt no couldnt blame the Army

for all the short comings



the only time i see a platoon commander is when a signature is needed. and it aint their fauly, admin snows em under!

it should be known as 'how not to do COFD'.

yet these NCO's seemed to think it was proper training and beneficial

also, can someone clarify the proper way to fall out of ranks?

is it, Lig Amach, then stand still for 3 seconds before dispersing or is it turn to left/right and walk away?

hedgehog
26th November 2008, 15:12
Exactly

NO CHange unless reflected by authorised Doctrine

Docman
26th November 2008, 15:13
also, can someone clarify the proper way to fall out of ranks?

is it, Lig Amach, then stand still for 3 seconds before dispersing or is it turn to left/right and walk away?

According to TR620, On the order Lig Amach, the NCO will salute and march the troops off the square and fall them out. That is a paraphrase but indicates the level of confusion. An Officers nowadays gives Lig Amach to a platoon and that is the last thing you will see them do.

WilcoOut
26th November 2008, 16:53
as in the NCO salutes the Officer after the officer hands in back over to the NCO. iv never seen anything contrary to that

however.

wen said NCO tells the assembled rank to fall out, its lig amach, and then whats SUPPOSED to happen...............(by the book)

hptmurphy
26th November 2008, 17:16
There is, or at least was 10 years ago, a Drill course

Dress and Drill course 1997 held at the CTD in Southern Brigade.

Was a serious attempt to put things right, unfortunately guys came off the course back to their units and the units acted as if the course never existed.

Barry
26th November 2008, 18:03
Rod, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Brits have an All Arms Drill Instructor Course, where senior NCOs (Sgt and above) go to learn how to instruct in drill. They revise foot drill and arms drill, and learn sword drill (yes, Sgts learn sword drill, and the RSMs of some units are expected to occasionally drill the YOs in sword drill) and stick drill, in addition to how to use a pace stick as an aid to drill instruction (to measure the correct length of pace, not to hit people with). Only NCOs who have completed this course can instruct in foot drill. NCOs without the course done can march troops, but cannot instruct (officially).

Contrast this to the Irish army, where Cpls directly off their PNCO course know their drill, and Standard NCO courses cover funeral drill etc, but there's a big chance that the Sergeant Major or CS won't have been near a training institution in years, and little "changes" sneak in, like the myriad ways of falling out and stopping (these variations exist in both PDF and RDF units).

Goldie fish
26th November 2008, 18:08
Don't Senior NCOs in some British Regiments carry Swords?

Barry
26th November 2008, 18:30
The RSM carries a sword - but only draws it while on parade in defence of the colours (as you can see during the queen's birthday parade)

dahamster
26th November 2008, 20:51
Pause and Walk away. There is only one BTC in the country teaching anything different. The Mexican one.

what happened to turn to your right in a soldier like manner and then peel away??
thats what was drilled into me in the depot!

turbocalves
26th November 2008, 21:13
We have a manual of foot drill thats in the process of being updated



Thats the fault of your unit and NOT the Army




no...

its the army's fault that the manual is terrible,

that it lacks clarity, and that the commands are spelled differently than they are pronounced,

my unit didnt write it,

and if it was any use they wouldnt be updating it,

turbocalves
26th November 2008, 21:16
Contrast this to the Irish army, where Cpls directly off their PNCO course know their drill, and Standard NCO courses cover funeral drill etc, but there's a big chance that the Sergeant Major or CS won't have been near a training institution in years, and little "changes" sneak in, like the myriad ways of falling out and stopping (these variations exist in both PDF and RDF units).

providing they got thier rank trough graft, and self improvement

and not ah here your army no is 1 have a promotion....

luchi
26th November 2008, 23:49
Pause and Walk away. There is only one BTC in the country teaching anything different. The Mexican one.

As was asked by more than just me

Where is this written down.

Its NOT in the manual and as was said we are supposed to be training by the manual!!

GoneToTheCanner
27th November 2008, 00:57
Jeez, lads,
In my time(pre-95) the Pause-and-walk-away was introduced and the Don usually got everything after the real Army, so if it's around since then and units are still doing the old Turn-right-and-fall-out drill, then someone needs to be taken in hand and brought up to date.
regards
GttC

luchi
27th November 2008, 08:35
Jeez, lads,
In my time(pre-95) the Pause-and-walk-away was introduced and the Don usually got everything after the real Army, so if it's around since then and units are still doing the old Turn-right-and-fall-out drill, then someone needs to be taken in hand and brought up to date.
regards
GttC
I totally agree. But if the correct way is by the manual then you and anyone else that does the pause and walk away had been inventinf foot drill. Unless of course there is some written instruction, which I assume there is, to correct the manual.
The problem is we only have the manual and hear-say to go on.

GoneToTheCanner
27th November 2008, 10:11
Well, what happened was that we did the usual old-style "luig amach" and were corrected by a passing Depot NCO who told us that the new-style of pause and walk away was now the order of the day.Need less to say, this had already been communicated on paper to our Orderly Rooms and we promptly ignored it...This created fun and games on the mounting of the guard each morning until the old orthodoxy had been finally done away with.
regards
GttC

DeV
27th November 2008, 13:02
The right turn & march away looks a h*ll of a lot better!

WilcoOut
27th November 2008, 15:57
The right turn & march away looks a h*ll of a lot better!

agreed.

can someone clarify the proper drill for the swinging of arms while marching. up to shoulder height yeah?

i was informed that when the PDF become 3*s they are afforded the respect of not having to swing their arms shoulder height but a casual lose swing just above hip height.

luchi
27th November 2008, 16:52
Well, what happened was that we did the usual old-style "luig amach" and were corrected by a passing Depot NCO who told us that the new-style of pause and walk away was now the order of the day.Need less to say, this had already been communicated on paper to our Orderly Rooms and we promptly ignored it...This created fun and games on the mounting of the guard each morning until the old orthodoxy had been finally done away with.
regards
GttC
This is common but no one seems to remember where that written communication is now. No one bothered to staple a copy into the manual for future reference. So every so often someone says "thats wrong because its not in the manual"!!

rod and serpent
27th November 2008, 17:25
We have a drill manual, also, we have two courses dedicated to ceremonial drill.


........and now a CD too :eek:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Guards-Drill-Manual_W0QQitemZ200275842469QQihZ010QQcategoryZ665 29QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Guards-Drill-Manual_W0QQitemZ200275842469QQihZ010QQcategoryZ665 29QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262)

Docman
27th November 2008, 20:20
agreed.

can someone clarify the proper drill for the swinging of arms while marching. up to shoulder height yeah?

i was informed that when the PDF become 3*s they are afforded the respect of not having to swing their arms shoulder height but a casual lose swing just above hip height.

From the Manual

"In Quick Time, the arms will swing forward to a point as high as the waist and as far as possible to the rear. The arms will not be bent, the backs of the hands outwards, thumb to the front, fists closed but not clenched. "

No mention of shoulder high but I'm not looking through the whole manual to find it.

hptmurphy
27th November 2008, 21:48
No mention of shoulder high but I'm not looking through the whole manual to find it

Nor will you find it. This was something that was introduced to recruit training but never officially recorded.

As for the 'Lig Amach.' Over my service i have come across four variations of this movement ranging from the pause walk away.. take one step forward march smartly away, turn tight walk away to turn right march smartly away.

Again what is taught to what is correct is down to local interpretation but gets a bit confusing when two variations of the same movement are used in one unit.

johnny no stars
27th November 2008, 23:45
Personal preference but I hate seeing the pause and wander off.... which is all it looks like and people tend to go different directions and it just generally looks very very messy. Doing something definate looks much smarter - dunno why it was ever changed.

Docman
28th November 2008, 03:36
Personal preference but I hate seeing the pause and wander off.... which is all it looks like and people tend to go different directions and it just generally looks very very messy. Doing something definate looks much smarter - dunno why it was ever changed.

1 Changed from what,

&

2. When was what is not there changed?

hedgehog
28th November 2008, 08:53
Personal preference but I hate seeing the pause and wander off.... which is all it looks like and people tend to go different directions and it just generally looks very very messy. Doing something definate looks much smarter - dunno why it was ever changed.

How long are you in JNS

so whats your terms of reference on this

Docman
28th November 2008, 12:05
Personal preference but I hate seeing the pause and wander off.... which is all it looks like and people tend to go different directions and it just generally looks very very messy. Doing something definate looks much smarter

I've been in a while and the "pause & walk away" looks woeful. Good thing it is not in the manual.

WilcoOut
28th November 2008, 12:21
From the Manual

"In Quick Time, the arms will swing forward to a point as high as the waist and as far as possible to the rear. The arms will not be bent, the backs of the hands outwards, thumb to the front, fists closed but not clenched. "

No mention of shoulder high but I'm not looking through the whole manual to find it.


huh!? then why the hell have i been doing it all these years?

Hello Alaska
28th November 2008, 14:11
agreed.

can someone clarify the proper drill for the swinging of arms while marching. up to shoulder height yeah?

i was informed that when the PDF become 3*s they are afforded the respect of not having to swing their arms shoulder height but a casual lose swing just above hip height.

As a Recruit it's up to shoulder height, once you get your 2 Stars and beret then it changes to the arms going to the waist of the person in front of you.

However, it's not a "casual loose swing" it's still arms straight, push down on the thumbs etc.

DeV
28th November 2008, 16:48
As a Recruit it's up to shoulder height, once you get your 2 Stars and beret then it changes to the arms going to the waist of the person in front of you.

However, it's not a "casual loose swing" it's still arms straight, push down on the thumbs etc.

Thats not what it says in the manual!

Joshua
28th November 2008, 17:15
once you get your 2 Stars and beret .

What do your recruits use for headwear?

hedgehog
28th November 2008, 17:24
What do your recruits use for headwear?

Boonie Hats

We train our Recruits in a manner that they earn there Black Berets

what you get cheaply you do not appreciate

what you work hard for you appreciate

Joshua
28th November 2008, 17:28
Or put another way, 2 stars simply get issued with berets.

hedgehog
28th November 2008, 17:32
Or put another way, 2 stars simply get issued with berets.

No most Platoons are isued with them straight away and the Recruits can shpae them and

look longinly at them

we find that this policy albeit an unoffical one

works quiet well in that it encourages the troops

johnny no stars
28th November 2008, 17:33
My terms of reference are that some units turn, while others stand and flop away after a little while. I was taught to turn. I've been bollicked by NCOs from other units for doing so. Does this mean that NCOs aren't always right?! :-o

(but seriously, some say it's one way, some say it's another..... whatever happened to uniformity? and what do you want me to think when I'm told by some that it changed from the turn to the stand and swan?)

hedgehog
28th November 2008, 17:35
whatever happened to uniformity

Thats what the manual is for



when I'm told by some that it changed from the turn to the stand and swan?)



again I refer back to the manual

johnny no stars
28th November 2008, 17:39
You mean of course, the manual that I am not allowed to have? As a pte, I'm entirely reliant on NCOs, many of whom seem to have their own opinions because of lack of clarity in the manual, it seems.....

hedgehog
28th November 2008, 17:40
what manual are you looking for

johnny no stars
28th November 2008, 17:42
The manual of how to arrange the flowers in the COs office.... I thought that was obvious?

hedgehog
28th November 2008, 17:50
The manual of how to arrange the flowers in the COs office.... I thought that was obvious?

well if thats your attitude

fred the red
28th November 2008, 18:18
Why would a pte need a manual?

Are we going to have pte's dictating to nco's now.

hedgehog
28th November 2008, 18:21
Why would a pte need a manual?

Are we going to have pte's dictating to nco's now.


if the Army wanted Pte's to have the manual

then the Army would require Privates to be able to read upon entry

let them read the manual and next thing they will want to sit in the front of the Nissan

tsk tsk pseeeeeeeh

johnny no stars
28th November 2008, 18:33
it'd be a right moron that says "But Cpl/Sgt/Sir... I read in the manual that....."

GoneToTheCanner
28th November 2008, 18:43
So,JNS, what you're saying is that, thirteen years after I left, there is still confusion about how to fall out from a parade.Back to DFTC or whoever is responsible for drill standards.After all, that's what a Standard is for.
regards
GttC

johnny no stars
28th November 2008, 18:46
The confusion only exists when two or more subunits "work together"

fred the red
28th November 2008, 19:01
it'd be a right moron that says "But Cpl/Sgt/Sir... I read in the manual that....."

Are you telling me that there is not some smart little ba**ard out there that wouldnt try to undermine an officer or nco.
That is why pte's dont get manuals.

Ive had this conversation/argument with other sgt's for years some units do it one way others another.

I did hear once that if there is an officer on parade you turn to the right salute and disperse.
If no officer pause three seconds and disperse.

Barry
28th November 2008, 20:45
If there is an officer on parade, you (as in everyone) salute the officer if told to fall out. If the officer is to the left/right, you turn left/right (to face the officer) and salute, then fall out. Thus it's not unusual to see units who don't turn to the right and fall out doing just that (plus salute) when told to fall out when being mounted for security/guard.

Incidentally, does anyone have a copy of Training Regulation No2?

hptmurphy
28th November 2008, 21:06
If there is an officer on parade, you (as in everyone) salute the officer if told to fall out. If the officer is to the left/right, you turn left/right (to face the officer) and salute, then fall out. Thus it's not unusual to see units who don't turn to the right and fall out doing just that (plus salute) when told to fall out when being mounted for security/guard.

Interesting as if the troops are under command the senior bodies salutes as in two guys walking down the lines the one closest to the officer salues the other 'eyes right'.

So why the change if a group is falling out?

I'm not arguing the point juts outling protocol and enquiring to the variation i protocol.

Yes the guard and escort thing I've done and seen but never really understood given that most times groups under command don't salute as individuals.

Barry
28th November 2008, 21:18
there's a distinction between an officer saying "ONC, lan leis" and "lig amach". By telling the NCOs to carry on, the officer is passing command to the senior NCO present, who will salute the officer and then take over. By telling the parade to fall out, the officer is allowing the entire body of troops to fall out, rather than simply passing on command of them, and so all of the troops salute (since the command was to all of them).

The above is my understanding of it - I can't point to a manual proving or disproving it. Maybe the elusive TR02 might give more information.

hedgehog
28th November 2008, 21:20
there's a distinction between an officer saying "ONC, lan leis" and "lig amach". By telling the NCOs to carry on, the officer is passing command to the senior NCO present, who will salute the officer and then take over. By telling the parade to fall out, the officer is allowing the entire body of troops to fall out, rather than simply passing on command of them, and so all of the troops salute (since the command was to all of them).

The above is my understanding of it - I can't point to a manual proving or disproving it. Maybe the elusive TR02 might give more information.

Correct (amondo)

Barry
28th November 2008, 22:49
Interesting as if the troops are under command the senior bodies salutes as in two guys walking down the lines the one closest to the officer salues the other 'eyes right'
As per manual, both would salute.

hptmurphy
28th November 2008, 22:59
Originally Posted by Barry

there's a distinction between an officer saying "ONC, lan leis" and "lig amach". By telling the NCOs to carry on, the officer is passing command to the senior NCO present, who will salute the officer and then take over. By telling the parade to fall out, the officer is allowing the entire body of troops to fall out, rather than simply passing on command of them, and so all of the troops salute (since the command was to all of them).

The above is my understanding of it - I can't point to a manual proving or disproving it. Maybe the elusive TR02 might give more information.

Very credible, I can go with that , not that it makes any difference to me anymore.


Originally Posted by hptmurphy
Interesting as if the troops are under command the senior bodies salutes as in two guys walking down the lines the one closest to the officer salues the other 'eyes right'

As per manual, both would salute

Not what i was taught but again you seem to be gaining some credibilty on your information so I'll take it as read.

Thanks again

Hello Alaska
30th November 2008, 19:46
Thats not what it says in the manual!

Well that's how it's done.