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kaiser
3rd July 2013, 18:30
I seen in the dftc this week 2 monster Iveco 4x4 ambulance,s
they dwarf the older 110 landrover ones
they where olive green on 13 reg
a good step forward for the med cover

DeV
3rd July 2013, 19:32
I seen in the dftc this week 2 monster Iveco 4x4 ambulance,s
they dwarf the older 110 landrover ones
they where olive green on 13 reg
a good step forward for the med cover

Wonder how many litters they carry

kaiser
4th July 2013, 09:22
i have no idea on any of its spec taught there might be med or tpt types here to shed light
I wonder is it armoured?? as its a big bus it might just be

morpheus
4th July 2013, 09:38
http://www.panzer-modell.de/specials/ontour/eurosatory10/eurosatory10_06g.jpg

probably not that one? :(

kaiser
4th July 2013, 10:32
afraid not Morpheus
its about that size but looking at that ours are soft skin

paul g
4th July 2013, 11:36
7183
is this what it looks like

kaiser
4th July 2013, 15:39
Very like the middle vehicle in your picture paul

paul g
4th July 2013, 16:31
Very like the middle vehicle in your picture paul

Isthis more like it


7186

kaiser
4th July 2013, 20:21
i think so paul
defo an upgrade to the aul 110 ambulance wise

slapper
5th July 2013, 18:46
Isthis more like it


7186
that looks like a fiat or citroen

Goldie fish
5th July 2013, 19:18
Fiat=Iveco.

acmatman
5th July 2013, 22:01
Maybe for sale in Czech
http://www.armypoint.cz/obrneny-transporter-saurer-4k-4fa-zdravotnicky/d-92069/

slapper
8th July 2013, 21:43
Fiat=Iveco.
i thought it was
ford = iveco

Goldie fish
9th July 2013, 21:37
For light commercials, fiat and Iveco are under the same umbrella

Aidan
10th July 2013, 09:07
More a case that the FIAT group owns Iveco outright (and Alfa, Ferrari, Maserati, New Holland agriculture and construction equipment).

danno
10th July 2013, 21:25
For light commercials, fiat and Iveco are under the same umbrella

Who then does Ducatos.

Goldie fish
10th July 2013, 23:15
Fiat.

Do I have to spell it out?


Do Iveco do light commercials? NO!
Do Fiat do Heavy Goods Vehicles? NO!

kaiser
11th July 2013, 13:15
Fiat.

Do I have to spell it out?


Do Iveco do light commercials? NO!
Do Fiat do Heavy Goods Vehicles? NO!
Do Fiat do good cars? No:-D

Come-quickly
11th July 2013, 14:16
Do Fiat do good cars? No:-D

Didn't you hear?

The MA listened to the concerns raised about situational awareness in the Pajero and are planning to replace it on ATCP duties with:
http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/gallery/medium/FIATMultipla-medium-2416_1.jpg

Saab
11th July 2013, 23:46
Fiat.

Do I have to spell it out?


Do Iveco do light commercials? NO!
Do Fiat do Heavy Goods Vehicles? NO!

What rubbish!!!!

Half the campervans driving around are Fiats.
I was in Rome at Easter and nearly every goods vehicle was either Iveco or Fiat.

Goldie fish
11th July 2013, 23:55
What rubbish!!!!

Half the campervans driving around are Fiats.
I was in Rome at Easter and nearly every goods vehicle was either Iveco or Fiat.

You were in ROME...... Which is in ITALY.. the Home of Fiat/Iveco. Fiat does small commercials, up to 3.5t. Anything above that is under the Iveco badge.

So tell me exactly what part of what I said was rubbish. I am willing to write off your outburst to heat...

Saab
12th July 2013, 11:01
You were in ROME...... Which is in ITALY.. the Home of Fiat/Iveco. Fiat does small commercials, up to 3.5t. Anything above that is under the Iveco badge.

So tell me exactly what part of what I said was rubbish. I am willing to write off your outburst to heat...

The bit where you don't count in the 7.5 - 12 ton FIAT box vans that are all over the place in Italy.
Then again maybe they are Iveco but just have the Fiat badge obn the front.

And what about the Iveco 3.5t white vans on he road here that are quite popular with some courier companies?

Wasn't Iveco not Ford at one stage?

Come-quickly
12th July 2013, 11:05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iveco

IF only there was some way to find out in this Dark age of unattainable knowledge...

kaiser
16th July 2013, 10:58
I heared that tpt types are saying the new Iveco ambulance is far to top heavy so there will be snags in the future with them :rolleyes:

Goldie fish
16th July 2013, 11:03
All 4x4 ambulances are top heavy. Indeed, all ambulances are top heavy.

Saab
16th July 2013, 23:35
So CQ that article shows that Iveco produces a vehicle 2.8t which is less than the minimum 3.5t that GF claimed. Thanks.

and it even mentions ford trucks.

And today a yellow Meath County Council tipper truck was in Dunboyne.
By the size I reckon it was well in excess of 3.5t.
The word FIAT was on the front of the cab. Wonder who made it?

Goldie fish
16th July 2013, 23:52
Photos or gtfo.

Saab
17th July 2013, 07:18
I would love to but I'm not in the habit of taking photos while driving.

However it did look like this

7224

Note the FIAT badge on the cab and look at the gross weight.
It's a 26t tipper truck
That far exceeds your maximum of 3.5t for FIAT.

Maybe you should get out more.

kaiser
17th July 2013, 08:46
All 4x4 ambulances are top heavy. Indeed, all ambulances are top heavy.
I have seen American 4x4 ambulances overseas that had a very squat footprint
the lads in tpt wear saying this new one is the worst they have work with
be nice in the back leaving the glen area at speed

Goldie fish
17th July 2013, 09:42
I would love to but I'm not in the habit of taking photos while driving.

However it did look like this

7224

Note the FIAT badge on the cab and look at the gross weight.
It's a 26t tipper truck
That far exceeds your maximum of 3.5t for FIAT.

Maybe you should get out more.

I'm out every day. That truck in the photo as old than me. Now if we accept that your penis is bigger than mine (even if I use mine more often) can we get back to the topic.

trellheim
17th July 2013, 12:47
Play the ball and not the man. To the two of you. Both of you have form so no further warnings

hptmurphy
17th July 2013, 20:47
That truck in the photo as old than me

Not quite, early '80s...badge is a give away.\:)|

Truck Driver
17th July 2013, 20:48
Isthis more like it


7186

Yup, that looks like it alright. Saw it the other day myself. It is both taller than the Land Rover 4x4 ambulance, and has higher ground clearance than the Land Rover

Truck Driver
17th July 2013, 20:49
The armoured Patrols are a mad piece of kit too. Saw 'em today...

REX
18th July 2013, 22:22
be nice in the back leaving the glen area at speed
That won't be a problem as the stated mission of the 4x4 ambulance is to get wounded pers off the ground to be transferred to a standard ambulance which is capable of much higher speeds in an emergency (providing it's not fitted with a speed restrictor:rolleyes:)

DeV
18th July 2013, 23:39
That won't be a problem as the stated mission of the 4x4 ambulance is to get wounded pers off the ground to be transferred to a standard ambulance which is capable of much higher speeds in an emergency (providing it's not fitted with a speed restrictor:rolleyes:)

Isn't that a safety measure due to high CoG ?

kaiser
20th July 2013, 13:34
I,ve seen our 4x4 ambulances goin from the glen and other training areas to A&E,s without a hand over by the side of the road..
also look at the history of 4x4 ambulances leaving the glen with injured pers in them I know of two which crashed very near to coolmoney,s back gate at the bad bend.
the idea of doing a road side swap does make sense but with A&E,s fit to burst they wont always have an ambulance to dispatch
we always have a heli evac if needed too with designated heli landing points in the training areas, the 4x4,s would have no problems with that job, and its good drills to use heli,s it keeps troops up to speed with there skills..

Shads
12th August 2013, 17:10
Had a look at them today, they're high, damn high! Wouldn't want to be putting a big guy on a stretcher in the back! ;) Rear floor is above waist height on me and I'm 5' 11". Top of dash is in line with roof height of a pajero, and there's another meter of iveco above that and just to liven up your day she's running on leaf springs all round so it'll handle like the titanic! Up back is top o the range though! Will get pics up later when I can.

Rhodes
3rd January 2014, 23:13
http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7343&d=1388790569

hptmurphy
4th January 2014, 00:26
Had a look at them today, they're high, damn high! Wouldn't want to be putting a big guy on a stretcher in the back

Do they nat have the NAS type tail lift at the rear?

Whats the point in the DF sending people to work with the NAS if they don't have the same equipment.?

Did the DF not read the reasons why the NAS insisted on tailifts?

Rhodes
4th January 2014, 10:33
Do they nat have the NAS type tail lift at the rear?

Whats the point in the DF sending people to work with the NAS if they don't have the same equipment.?

Did the DF not read the reasons why the NAS insisted on tailifts?

The DF have normal type ambulances as well as the 4x4 types.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/redcrossbrian/8663274821/in/photostream/

hptmurphy
4th January 2014, 10:53
Thats the stupid thing about it. The piece of kit that is key to the safe operation of the normal ambulance is omitted from the ones they bought out of spec for their own use.

Goldie fish
4th January 2014, 11:43
I'm still reminded of the time I (large built, 6 foot tall) was asked to make my own way to the back of a land rover ambulance as the excellent crew knew they wouldn't have a hope of getting me in on a stretcher. After doing so they strapped me into the spinal board.

DeV
4th January 2014, 14:43
Are the taillifts not to do with back injuries for paramedics?

Bear in mind that if your talking about a 4x4 ambulance, so the chances are the casualty had been carried at least a few hundred metres on a lightweight stretcher across broken ground( not the trolley type stretcher in an ambulance).

Goldie fish
4th January 2014, 15:13
But the patient still has to be taken out, most likely no longer on this lightweight stretcher, possibly connected to numerous life preserving equipment.

hptmurphy
4th January 2014, 21:03
Are the taillifts not to do with back injuries for paramedics?

All stretcher cases ,wheel chairs use the tail lifts , dead lifts are outlawed by health and safety.


Bear in mind that if your talking about a 4x4 ambulance, so the chances are the casualty had been carried at least a few hundred metres on a lightweight stretcher across broken ground( not the trolley type stretcher in an ambulance).


Casualty will still have to be lifted either from the ground or arms length into the ambulance, given the reported height, thats not going to be an easy job.

The fact that someone may have a spinal injury only means the likes of their battle vest cannot be removed increasing the weight of a casualty to lift into the back of the vehicle.


But the patient still has to be taken out, most likely no longer on this lightweight stretcher, possibly connected to numerous life preserving equipment.

Correct and right.

Given the crew of an ambulance is two persons, when you arrive at the hospital where the casualty is to be treated, most serious cases go directly to an ED.. getting the casualty poses a greater risk as patient lifting hoists are not designed to reach into vehicles.

Walking wounded only I fear.

sofa
4th January 2014, 22:20
Had a look in the back of a brand new German Army Duro 111 field Ambulance in 2009, and it did not have a stretcher lift. are we getting too civi soft.??

danno
4th January 2014, 23:31
Wonder what our nearest neighbours do,perhaps RGJ might do the honours?

DeV
5th January 2014, 00:50
?

All stretcher cases ,wheel chairs use the tail lifts , dead lifts are outlawed by health and safety.



Casualty will still have to be lifted either from the ground or arms length into the ambulance, given the reported height, thats not going to be an easy job.

The fact that someone may have a spinal injury only means the likes of their battle vest cannot be removed increasing the weight of a casualty to lift into the back of the vehicle.



Correct and right.

Given the crew of an ambulance is two persons, when you arrive at the hospital where the casualty is to be treated, most serious cases go directly to an ED.. getting the casualty poses a greater risk as patient lifting hoists are not designed to reach into vehicles.

Walking wounded only I fear.

There are exceptions to the HSWA for the DF for operations and training for ops (these wouldn't be used for HSE taskings).

Goldie fish
5th January 2014, 00:52
Already covered.


some very good low milage off-road capable ambulances here for just £29500 (+VAT):

http://www.mod-sales.com/thumbnails/medium/1334936998Pinz%20amb1.JPG

http://www.mod-sales.com/thumbnails/medium/1334937077Pinz%20amb9.JPG

http://www.mod-sales.com/thumbnails/medium/1334937111Pinz%20amb13.JPG

http://www.mod-sales.com/thumbnails/medium/1334937103Pinz%20amb12.JPG

http://www.mod-sales.com/thumbnails/medium/1334937163Pinz%20amb19.JPG

http://www.mod-sales.com/direct/vehicle/related/42738/Steyr_Puch.htm

i've been in these before and they seemed pretty good.

i'd be tempted to buy one to convert as a camper - access all areas.

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?18889-New-Ambulances

DeV
5th January 2014, 01:06
Already covered.



http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?18889-New-Ambulances

That folds into the back doors of the vehicle and appears to be a ramp not a lift (look at the hinges on the right, doesn't look as if it will fold down any further).

There are some better pics of that vehicle - http://www.military-salesuk.org.uk/direct/vehicle/related/42738/Steyr_Puch.htm

danno
5th January 2014, 10:44
With its hems experience the AC helis can be deployed to extract casualties from inaccessible spots.

hptmurphy
5th January 2014, 22:48
With its hems experience the AC helis can be deployed to extract casualties from inaccessible spots

So why do we need specialist ambulances



There are exceptions to the HSWA for the DF for operations and training for ops

I'm sure the judge in the high court making the award to the guy who fcuks up his back will bear that in mind!:-D

mercurydoc
6th January 2014, 20:38
We recently serviced a Nissan Pathfinder Ambulance at work. When I asked the driver how would he work in that he said its only a load and go job, transfer to HSE ambulance on the nearest access point. It was either Order or malta or civil Defence but il check it out

mercurydoc
6th January 2014, 20:49
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=567329476637410&set=pb.162431653793863.-2207520000.1389041310.&type=3&theater

REX
6th January 2014, 20:51
We recently serviced a Nissan Pathfinder Ambulance at work. When I asked the driver how would he work in that he said its only a load and go job, transfer to HSE ambulance on the nearest access point. It was either Order or malta or civil Defence but il check it out

As I previously stated this is exactly what the procedure is for the DF 4x4 ambulances

X-RayOne
8th January 2014, 11:56
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=567329476637410&set=pb.162431653793863.-2207520000.1389041310.&type=3&theater

what an utter waste of time as an ambulance. with the head space and side lockers you can only carry a trolley patient lying flat. can't sit up a conscious patient. if they are lying on a spinal board (turning board & patient to clear airway, etc.), cardiac arrest, multi-trauma with injuries needing treatment in transit you can't do anything due to no access to patient. useless!!

would be better as a first / off road response non transporting vehicle. or leave seats for walking wounded only.

mercurydoc
8th January 2014, 14:57
It was designed by an Advanced Paramedic apparently. if he's happy with it! I hope im never in need of it! Im sure its cheaper than the DF truck thing which is the same thing bar space?

Liachta Cultaca
8th January 2014, 20:38
As I previously stated this is exactly what the procedure is for the DF 4x4 ambulances

Not true

Liachta Cultaca
8th January 2014, 20:41
what an utter waste of time as an ambulance. with the head space and side lockers you can only carry a trolley patient lying flat. can't sit up a conscious patient. if they are lying on a spinal board (turning board & patient to clear airway, etc.), cardiac arrest, multi-trauma with injuries needing treatment in transit you can't do anything due to no access to patient. useless!!

would be better as a first / off road response non transporting vehicle. or leave seats for walking wounded only.

These vehicles that are used by the order of Malta are 4x4 and are used around the country race courses to get the injured person a small distance ..they were never design to transport directly to hospital.

These vehicle would have been designed with the aid of the Medical Director of the Irish Horse Racing Association

Liachta Cultaca
8th January 2014, 20:46
?

All stretcher cases ,wheel chairs use the tail lifts , dead lifts are outlawed by health and safety.



Casualty will still have to be lifted either from the ground or arms length into the ambulance, given the reported height, thats not going to be an easy job.

The fact that someone may have a spinal injury only means the likes of their battle vest cannot be removed increasing the weight of a casualty to lift into the back of the vehicle.



Correct and right.

Given the crew of an ambulance is two persons, when you arrive at the hospital where the casualty is to be treated, most serious cases go directly to an ED.. getting the casualty poses a greater risk as patient lifting hoists are not designed to reach into vehicles.

Walking wounded only I fear.

The casualty still needs to be lifted from the ground up even when using a ambulance lift.

If people are not members of the Army Medical Corp, HSE or DFB or Fire Service , I think there should refrain from posting in this thread as you are adding nothing constructive.

hptmurphy
8th January 2014, 21:46
If people are not members of the Army Medical Corp, HSE or DFB or Fire Service , I think there should refrain from posting in this thread as you are adding nothing constructive

I'm HSE, not Ambulance , have a vested interest so qualified to comment on the thread.

The casualty is lifted onto the trolley / Stretcher which is then placed on the hoist, big difference.

X-RayOne
9th January 2014, 11:09
These vehicles that are used by the order of Malta are 4x4 and are used around the country race courses to get the injured person a small distance ..they were never design to transport directly to hospital.

These vehicle would have been designed with the aid of the Medical Director of the Irish Horse Racing Association

My point still stands though......if a seriously injured jockey is taken from the track to be moved to a standard ambulance for transport to the hospital, you cannot provide any treatment in that vehicle. What if said jockey went into cardiac arrest? Begin CPR at track, stop it while in the back of the Pathfinder and recommence when in back of standard ambulance? I think not. No EMS organisation the size of OMAC, etc. will (or should) find that as acceptable practice or standard of treatment care.

More than likely the people in the back of that vehicle will be very seriously injured or have significant individual injuries hat will require treatment, assessment, monitoring in transit. Can't be provided effectively with that.

What is average transfer time from track to standard ambulance at meetings, as a matter of interest?

Its grand for first response driving along rough tracks beside race track but even transporting to a drop off point I would think is questionable in terms of casualty care that can be given.

Flamingo
9th January 2014, 14:59
My point still stands though......if a seriously injured jockey is taken from the track to be moved to a standard ambulance for transport to the hospital, you cannot provide any treatment in that vehicle. What if said jockey went into cardiac arrest? Begin CPR at track, stop it while in the back of the Pathfinder and recommence when in back of standard ambulance? I think not. No EMS organisation the size of OMAC, etc. will (or should) find that as acceptable practice or standard of treatment care.

More than likely the people in the back of that vehicle will be very seriously injured or have significant individual injuries hat will require treatment, assessment, monitoring in transit. Can't be provided effectively with that.

What is average transfer time from track to standard ambulance at meetings, as a matter of interest?

Its grand for first response driving along rough tracks beside race track but even transporting to a drop off point I would think is questionable in terms of casualty care that can be given.

From my time (about 25+ years ago) rattling around in an ambulance behind horses, picking up midget culchies with whips who were literally running to the ambulance to get back in to be cleared by the MO so they could ride in the next race, the mini-ambulances were provided in the first instance because of concerns over the wear and tear on the "proper" ambulances driving around a pot-holed dirt track at 30+ mph. The vast majority of jockeys we picked up only needed a lift back in. I don't know if it has changed, but the plan then was that any casualty that required a proper ambulance and were unsuitable to be transported in the mini 4x4 would wait with the first-aider (no paramedics in those days) until the proper ambulance came out to them.

To put this into perspective, I can only remember one casualty that would have applied to in about six years of doing it.

I also remember the general consensus amongst the First Aiders was that the vehicles so generously provided by the Racing Association (whoever they were) were the cheapest 4x4 they could get, and barely adequate for the job!

X-RayOne
9th January 2014, 15:50
The vast majority of jockeys we picked up only needed a lift back in. I don't know if it has changed, but the plan then was that any casualty that required a proper ambulance and were unsuitable to be transported in the mini 4x4 would wait with the first-aider (no paramedics in those days) until the proper ambulance came out to them.

Backs up my original point....if they're jumping into ambulance to get back for next race normal seats will do them. Its a taxi job basically.

If they seriously need an ambulance send first responders to stabilise and transport in a properly equipped and with useable work spaced vehicle.

The real Jack
9th January 2014, 15:55
FFS Its just to get bods off rough ground to a proper ambo, do you propose getting a transit ambo stuck in the grass and pulled out by a ****ing tractor instead??

Liachta Cultaca
9th January 2014, 17:27
My point still stands though......if a seriously injured jockey is taken from the track to be moved to a standard ambulance for transport to the hospital, you cannot provide any treatment in that vehicle. What if said jockey went into cardiac arrest? Begin CPR at track, stop it while in the back of the Pathfinder and recommence when in back of standard ambulance? I think not. No EMS organisation the size of OMAC, etc. will (or should) find that as acceptable practice or standard of treatment care.

More than likely the people in the back of that vehicle will be very seriously injured or have significant individual injuries hat will require treatment, assessment, monitoring in transit. Can't be provided effectively with that.

What is average transfer time from track to standard ambulance at meetings, as a matter of interest?

Its grand for first response driving along rough tracks beside race track but even transporting to a drop off point I would think is questionable in terms of casualty care that can be given.

As already stated by The real jack..we need a 4x4 vehicle to transport the short distance, once the casualty is clear of the race course and uneven ground they are transferred to a road ambulance if required.

Same space in the back of a 4x4 that would be in the back of most HEMS aircraft, the means justifies the ends

Flamingo
9th January 2014, 20:57
If the jockey is that seriously injured, I would imagine the pathway would be to get the course Dr out of the stand and onto the course, whilst stabilising the casualty in preparation for an air ambulance evacuation.

Given the fact that it is a horserace it will be in daylight, reasonable weather conditions (or else the meet would have been canceled) and all the space one would wish for to land a medivac chopper.

X-RayOne
9th January 2014, 21:04
i'm not doubting the need for a 4x4 or similar to get patient to tarmacked road or surface. That's not an issue.

I just seriously doubt any meaningful casualty treatment could be done in such a confined space, and in the most serious of cases the ability to make a timely intervention may directly result in whether the patient lives or dies or determine their quality of life after.

The real Jack
10th January 2014, 01:40
I just seriously doubt any meaningful casualty treatment could be done in such a confined space,

No ambo crew neither professional or amateur with the consult of the course dr is going to stick a soon to expire pax into said 4x4. HSE & other professional crews would obviously be on hand in that case. If circumstances dictate the AC or CG helos could do a air evac.


and in the most serious of cases the ability to make a timely intervention may directly result in whether the patient lives or dies or determine their quality of life after.

You're splitting hairs for no ****ing reason other than what appears to be "union rules bud". If the order of malta/whatever weren't there then you've just got a soon to be dead jockey waiting for the NAS/DFB ambo to get to him from the hard surface in conjunction with a recovery crew.

Flamingo
10th January 2014, 15:46
Backs up my original point....if they're jumping into ambulance to get back for next race normal seats will do them. Its a taxi job basically.

If they seriously need an ambulance send first responders to stabilise and transport in a properly equipped and with useable work spaced vehicle.
There are lots of injuries which may not be suitable for transport sitting on the back seat of a 4X4, but don't need full life-support intervention either. The ability to have a casualty lieing down or reclining is necessary.

DeV
10th January 2014, 17:42
What would your feelings be on these ?

http://www.eeresq.com/id13.html :)

Liachta Cultaca
10th January 2014, 19:35
What would your feelings be on these ?

http://www.eeresq.com/id13.html :)


The golf cart style ambulances would be used to good affect at sports stadiums and open air concerts... Like I said before there are designed to get the casualty a short distance where a more appropriate vehicle / location can be used to treat the patient.

Flamingo
10th January 2014, 22:34
What would your feelings be on these ?

http://www.eeresq.com/id13.html :)
Short-distance humping, they seem ideal. Getting somebody in from the back straight at Fairyhouse (in a reasonable time) would be a challenge, though.

Truck Driver
11th January 2014, 13:52
The golf cart style ambulances would be used to good affect at sports stadiums and open air concerts... Like I said before there are designed to get the casualty a short distance where a more appropriate vehicle / location can be used to treat the patient.

Like the sig, L-C... :-D

X-RayOne
11th January 2014, 15:47
There are lots of injuries which may not be suitable for transport sitting on the back seat of a 4X4, but don't need full life-support intervention either. The ability to have a casualty lieing down or reclining is necessary.

true, and i'm not arguing that.

my point is there is no access to the patient in the back of that 4x4. so if the patient's condition changes, deteriorates, or treatment is ongoing nothing can be done while patient is on trolley in back. not an ideal situation.

personally, i don't care what the patient goes in as long as the practitioner has complete access all the time.


You're splitting hairs for no ****ing reason other than what appears to be "union rules bud"

not at all Real Jack. I'm by no means a "union rules bud" person. my priority is good patient care. you've even said yourself its not suitable for life threatening category patients.


No ambo crew neither professional or amateur with the consult of the course dr is going to stick a soon to expire pax into said 4x4.

daydreamer
11th January 2014, 17:18
I heared that tpt types are saying the new Iveco ambulance is far to top heavy so there will be snags in the future with them :rolleyes:

I think this is just casual sh*T talk,as we can see on this thread there are multiple photos of this style off road ambulance used by different Armys.If it didnt work they wouldn't be still making and using them.

daydreamer
11th January 2014, 17:23
Do they nat have the NAS type tail lift at the rear?

Whats the point in the DF sending people to work with the NAS if they don't have the same equipment.?

Did the DF not read the reasons why the NAS insisted on tailifts?

Off raod ambulances dont have tail lifts fitted, for a very good reason.You need flat ground to deploy it.If anyone has ever used a tail lift on a HGV for goods,pallets or an ambulance,even a small hole can cause your load to go over.

daydreamer
11th January 2014, 17:36
In the HSE ambulance 4x4s jeeps do have access to the patients airway in the jump seat behind the passenger, im not sure if the 4x4s used by the vols have the same thing.If a patient does go into Cardiac Arrest in the 3 mins they are in it, im sure they can just stop and take them out to do CPR or keep going for that little bit until they get to the ambulance or first aid tent where they will have better facilities to deal with it. Im sure if you look into the figures of Traumatic Arrests in the back of these jeeps i think you would be lucky to see any to justify a what if scenario....
As said they have a function,No point sending a 2.5 t ot 4.5 t ambulance that will sink or get stuck out.

DeV
2nd April 2015, 07:52
I assume it is the Ivecos:

http://m.rte.ie/news/2015/0402/691518-defence-force-ambulances/

No tail lift?

ancientmariner
2nd April 2015, 09:42
On the news this am that six new 4WD Mil. Ambulances need some redesign to suit average paramedic stature and strength. There was a tale told, some years ago, about an all terrain vehicle being tested before a PDF assessment team by the manufacturer. Our side were impressed until some PDF member suggested that a PDF driver put the vehicle through its paces. The driver found fault with certain key aspects of the vehicle and that was that!
It is much the same with ship building, as height and strength of crew is crucial to the ease of using ship equipment. Never send 6ft plus standby crew during the fit out stage. You will find everything from freestanding gun-mounts, pedestal radars, cabin mirrors, switch and button controls, etc. etc. all too high at the lower edge of permitted heights for service personnel. I say do the ergonomics first and make sure the person fits and talk to the draftsman who always has good advice.

The real Jack
2nd April 2015, 09:59
They have a stretcher lift, don't recall seeing the medic taking the weight of the cas prior to the lift kicks in.

hptmurphy
2nd April 2015, 21:21
Do they nat have the NAS type tail lift at the rear?

Whats the point in the DF sending people to work with the NAS if they don't have the same equipment.?

Did the DF not read the reasons why the NAS insisted on tailifts?

Well I did mention it at the time.......

na grohmiti
3rd April 2015, 07:27
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ambulance-safety-issues-can-be-quickly-overcome-321952.html


The six ambulances, purchased at a cost of almost €900,000 between 2012 and 2014, pose a risk of injury to staff because of difficulties loading and unloading patients due to the height of the vehicle base.

Yesterday Mr Coveney said the Defence Forces were working with the ambulance manufacturers on developing a “practical design-based solution”, which he said he did not anticipate running to “hundreds of thousands of euro”.

“It doesn’t involve a total redesign,” he said, adding that it may be possible to solve by adding a hoist system.

DeV
3rd April 2015, 07:57
I'd say its to do with the height of the box body off the ground. But in our claims and H&S culture it could be the lack of a tail lift.

This is a British vehicle but would be similar to the DF Defender ambulances
http://army-uk.com/stock/fotobig/423_IMG_4582.jpg

na grohmiti
3rd April 2015, 09:52
The Land rover ambulance previously in use had a similar issue. Most medics are small. Most casualties are large :)

madmark
3rd April 2015, 11:28
They have a stretcher lift, don't recall seeing the medic taking the weight of the cas prior to the lift kicks in.

i have used these ambulances and the is no lift.. you hold all the weight of the patient and stretcher and the kick in the b***ox is the strtcher has no guide ralls so its prone to move sideways when trying to load

hptmurphy
4th April 2015, 00:58
i have used these ambulances and the is no lift.. you hold all the weight of the patient and stretcher and the kick in the b***ox is the strtcher has no guide ralls so its prone to move sideways when trying to load

An everything you mention is in contravention to best practise,

Thanks Mark

The real Jack
4th April 2015, 01:01
i have used these ambulances and the is no lift.. you hold all the weight of the patient and stretcher and the kick in the b***ox is the strtcher has no guide ralls so its prone to move sideways when trying to load

My bad, I though there was some sort of winch/lift thing? It was dark and we'd stretchered a lad over a silly distance in the glen in one of the fobbit exercises last year!

Saab
9th April 2015, 23:37
An everything you mention is in contravention to best practise,

Thanks Mark

What is best practice?

Normal ambulances don't normally go off road.

The civvi ones that do, like the CD, go into nice fields etc.

These monster ambulances are built to go anywhere. Through ground that is pock marked with shell creators.
Maybe with some nasty people shooting in your general direction.

What "best practice" can you possibly be applying?
If you google images for other army ambulance you'll see it is the same all round.

Look at this monster http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/vehicles/iveco/pressiveco-display-vehicles-variants.html

The real Jack
9th April 2015, 23:46
Saab defo has a point there, I've seen the iveco pick up cas from places a HSE ambo wouldn't have got near but the df cheaped out on the first tail-lift option evidently. The thing is so high I wouldn't call it off road though it's COG is probably higher than a mowags!

hptmurphy
11th April 2015, 00:48
What is best practice?

Normal ambulances don't normally go off road.

The civvi ones that do, like the CD, go into nice fields etc.


These monster ambulances are built to go anywhere. Through ground that is pock marked with shell creators.
Maybe with some nasty people shooting in your general direction.

What "best practice" can you possibly be applying?
If you google images for other army ambulance you'll see it is the same all round.


Fcuk all to do where the vehicles ago and the off road capacity, its how the patient is handled and in the case of ambulances its about patients.

Given that 100% of the casualties these vehicles will be tasked with are in a peace time situation , albeit on exercise, the people being treated are to be dealt with the best response available.

Best practice, patient safety !!!

Having being a real life casualty in a military scenario, I needed the best care available..

I didn't trip over a boot lace or OD on sheep shit .....

Compression spinal fracture, real injury requiring proper care, shit happens and those who suffer injuries require the best care available

Just because its DF related doesn't mean the injuries aren't real and don't require that care applicable to others. The helo dispatched to lift me on the day never made it, but the SBA who looked after me on board did a job second to none.

Saab
11th April 2015, 19:27
But in that case best practice and safety first would require a helicopter evac any where that a standard ambulance could go.

Or on the other hand if you want to be totally by the book on health and safety one should avoid the situation that could cause injury.
And that would in fact mean not taking part in an exercise in the first place.
Heck better still if we could avoid being involved in any conflict at all no soldier would ever be in any danger and then no army ambulances would be needed at all.
Problem solved!!!!
:-D:-D

X-RayOne
11th April 2015, 20:34
Fcuk all to do where the vehicles ago and the off road capacity, its how the patient is handled and in the case of ambulances its about patients.

Given that 100% of the casualties these vehicles will be tasked with are in a peace time situation , albeit on exercise, the people being treated are to be dealt with the best response available.

Best practice, patient safety !!!


Just because its DF related doesn't mean the injuries aren't real and don't require that care applicable to others. The helo dispatched to lift me on the day never made it, but the SBA who looked after me on board did a job second to none.

Hpt, i think you're confusing H&S best practice with clinical best practice here.

Ambulance tail lifts were primarily introduced to prevent lifting/slipping injuries being done to ambulance crews. the fact that the patient was less likely to be dropped in a fall was an added bonus. It was all instigated by health and safety at work.

That is a completely different animal from clinical best practice, i.e. best medical treatment appropriate to the illness/injury. taking your injury as an example how you were put into the ambulance would have had no bearing at all on your injury as long as the best spinal immobilisation, pain management, patient packaging, etc. was done by the first responders and medics prior to getting you to the vehicle.

the reality with military/expedition/remote medicine due to locations and environments is that it usually not realistic to achieve best practice, either clinically or H&S wise, as the normal population understands them.

that is why there are often significant variances in what is considered best practice in medical treatment protocols, etc. between these austere settings and normal civil medicine.

hptmurphy
11th April 2015, 21:33
But in that case best practice and safety first would require a helicopter evac any where that a standard ambulance could go.

Or on the other hand if you want to be totally by the book on health and safety one should avoid the situation that could cause injury.
And that would in fact mean not taking part in an exercise in the first place.
Heck better still if we could avoid being involved in any conflict at all no soldier would ever be in any danger and then no army ambulances would be needed at all.
Problem solved!!!!
:-D:-D

And on the days when helos can't fly.....

Saab
12th April 2015, 23:28
If we are to follow best practice to the letter then there is no such thing as no helo.

After all for health and safety reasons no one should be out in inclement weather.

Truck Driver
13th April 2015, 00:35
If we are to follow best practice to the letter then there is no such thing as no helo.

After all for health and safety reasons no one should be out in inclement weather

We are talking about the military here.... The Battle of the Bulge didn't grind to a halt because the weather was bad and the planes couldn't fly !!!

The real Jack
13th April 2015, 00:58
dev clear your pm's

Saab
13th April 2015, 23:39
But TD thats the point isn't it.

During any battle medics do what they have to do.
It would ne nice if all casualties fell beside a convenient road to your nice day-glow ambulance could pull up and the crew use all the patient handling equipment to safely lift the patient and transport them comfortably to hospital.

Instead of inconsiderately falling in the middle of a what might have been a field but has been turned into a series of creates.
Best practice (HSE style) would be to sit and wait for that helo as the fancy road ambulance won't be able to get there and the ground would be too rough to permit manual carrying.

So IMHO it is better to have a vehicle capable of traversing the ground to get the casualty out before they bleed to death.

DeV
14th April 2015, 00:57
Maybe the 4x4 Nissan Pathfinder discussed on page 3 wasn't such a bad idea?!

hptmurphy
14th April 2015, 20:44
Reality check people..we are not at war!!!!

DeV
14th April 2015, 21:54
dev clear your pm's

Done

F_M
15th April 2015, 19:15
Reality check people..we are not at war!!!!

Ukraine wasn't at war a year ago and they are Constitutionally neutral!

Not being at war is not an excuse to do things by half measures.

Battlefield medical care is certainly not something we should scrimp on, and, as a bonus it can all be used to help civies here in Ireland.

ropebag
15th April 2015, 19:46
as a little ditty, i read a little statistic that after implementing the casualty reception/clearing procedure in place at Bastion, the A&E units in the West Midlands saw the fatality rate within those A&E's fell by a full one third.

hptmurphy
15th April 2015, 20:36
Ukraine wasn't at war a year ago and they are Constitutionally neutral!

Not being at war is not an excuse to do things by half measures.

Battlefield medical care is certainly not something we should scrimp on, and, as a bonus it can all be used to help civies here in Ireland.

..And so the Army sent EMTs to the HSE / NAS for upskilling!!!!

I often wonder...peoples reality

Saab
15th April 2015, 22:50
Murphy you are dead right, we are not at war.

And so by your logic don't need such vehicles or to practice silly things like sectional battle drills or cas evac because we aren't at war so we don't need any of that stuff.

These vehicles are the ones that go in where the LTAVS go.
Nissans don't have the same clearance so can't go there.

And since the DF have those nice yellow ambulances with the tail lifts I assume it is very important for EMTs to get the best of training from where ever available,

DeV
15th April 2015, 23:14
These vehicles shouldn't be going anywhere near where the LTAVs are in a battle situation that is what the MOWAG ambulance is for

na grohmiti
15th April 2015, 23:25
Having had the pleasure of being a patient of the fine medics of the Irish Defence forces, Its fair that I share my story.
The circumstances of the incident are unimportant. It is enough to say it involved me falling from a height of over 10 feet, and landing on my helmeted head into a shallow stream. Others with me returned to camp to inform the duty medic. Duty medic was equipped with 4x4 Land Rover ambulance. Duty medic was not able to leave camp as they had to remain at MAP, and incident had not happened inside camp, where other military activities were ongoing. If I was to report to MAP then they could deal with me. My colleagues returned with our own transport, brought me to MAP. Medic in MAP carried out initial checks and quickly determined I required full spinal board due to circumstances of incident, even though I was "walking wounded". However, because I am and was, quite a large gentleman, and the medic was one of the minimum height types that otherwise do an excellent job, and his female assistant did not believe she could carry me herself, It was suggested that I make my own way to the back of the 4x4 ambulance, within which I was attached to spinal board.
On arrival at A&E, because of the type of stretcher in use, I had to be lifted from back of ambulance assisted by hospital porter, and transferred from there to hospital trolley. To do otherwise would see me in spinal board, and probably 2 others with back trouble for ever after.

So, back to our original story, how could it have been done better? If it had happened in civvy life for example? What point in having a 4x4 ambulance that is not equipped to deal with a casualty coming from rough terrain? Why is there not enough medics available to carry a fully equipped soldier at the upper end of the dimensional scale? (If you have uniforms in large sizes, then you should expect to have to carry the soldiers who wear the large sizes when they get injured).
What would be the practice in civvy land for example had I fallen from a horse? Would the HSE ask me to walk to the nearest road where the road ambulance was parked? If I worked on a Building site and had fallen from scaffolding?
Better still, If I was overseas in Lebanon etc, or anywhere where armies operate under occasional fire and working from a watchtower/OP type elevated platform, and fell from same, would the Brass insist that the 2 ambulance crew be the only ones to put patient into back of ambulance using brute force alone, or provide the proper hoists and lifts for them to do so with the minimum of manual handling?

I'd genuinely love to know.

madmark
15th April 2015, 23:52
yes these ambulances are needed, the fault lies in how the patient is loaded into the ambulance it IS unsafe to the patient and the medic. the problem i beleive is with our procurement process when we sent people to evaluate what we want/need. it is people who are not the end users making the decision on what we get which is usely the cheepest option

hptmurphy
17th April 2015, 21:09
And so by your logic don't need such vehicles or to practice silly things like sectional battle drills or cas evac because we aren't at war so we don't need any of that stuff.

These vehicles are the ones that go in where the LTAVS go.
Nissans don't have the same clearance so can't go there.

We have an army that train and suffer casualties during this training and these people need to be cared for as if it were work related accidents, there fore the support equipment and services offered need to be of the highest standard.
NG gives a perfect example and Madmark backs it up with what I have said that we are buying equipment that is not suited to task .
What the capabilities of the vehicle are in a peace time situation are imperative and what ifs of war fighting are nothing but conjecture. If these vehicles re being used to convey casualties they must meet that standard which can give the best care to the injured party.

Anything else is less than acceptable

Saab
20th April 2015, 23:41
Dev Mowag is a higher mobility vehicle than the LTAV. Hence Iveco wouldn't go wher the Mowag goes and neither would the LTAV.

Not sure if NG's example is quite as good for your cause as you might like to think.

IF someone falls on a building site in the city a rescue tender and ambulance is turned out.
If CD are operating off road they send a rescue crew of 8 in addition to the off road ambulance.
Mountain rescue sends up to 12 for rough area rescues where the CD can't normally go.
All of them rely on pure muscle to get the job done..
I wonder why that is?

It wouldn't by any chance be because it is the most efficient or best way to do it?

No probably not as we all know using a helicopter would be better.

Or would it be simply because there isn't actually a better way?

I was carried in the CD Landrover ambulance once. It has a lot of difficulty getting out of where we were. If it had a tail lift on the back it would never have made it.

The problem might be the lack of personnel as opposed to un-suitable vehicles.
Or using the vehicles in situations they weren't meant for.

DeV
21st April 2015, 07:27
Dev Mowag is a higher mobility vehicle than the LTAV. Hence Iveco wouldn't go wher the Mowag goes and neither would the LTAV.

It's nothing to do with mobility.

These ambulances aren't armoured so wouldn't be going as far forward as where the armour (MOWAG or LTAV) is

Saab
22nd April 2015, 23:13
No nothing about that sort of thing.
I was only referring to the ability to go places.
There was an Iveco Ambulance and LTAV at the pumps in CBB. They are about same height and length and so would get over the same sort of teraine.
Just like a 4x4 truck can get over things nissans get stuck on.

DeV
23rd April 2015, 06:26
The IVECO shouldn't be deployed anywhere near a MOWAG or LTAV in action!