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DeV
20th November 2013, 23:04
http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=980

What exactly does this mean?

Rhodes
20th November 2013, 23:39
http://pdforra.ie/news/?p=980

What exactly does this mean?

Currently if someone wants to apply for say a weeks leave they will have to use seven days leave with this new proposal only five days will be used. If someone wanted to apply for say leave for a Friday and the following Monday they will have to use four days leave, new proposal two days leave. Leave cant be broken over a weekend period, Saturday and Sunday has to be taken off as leave even thought they will probably be off anyway.

Tango_Charlie
21st November 2013, 01:09
No more AH's? :S

RoyalGreenJacket
21st November 2013, 01:14
That's the system we use and it is much better.

Turns 4 weeks Leave into 5 and a half weeks Leave or in other words 28 days Leave into 38 days Leave.

However I can't see you keeping your 'Rest Day' if this is introduced.

I hope you do get the new system being proposed.

HavocIRL
21st November 2013, 02:30
Naturally they introduce this system AFTER I leave........

DeV
21st November 2013, 07:20
That's what I taught and it seems fair.

With regard to the max holidays, will it be the same for the NS?
The change for new enterants is just wrong!

Does the change of DF holidays mean that you not get public holidays off?

Tango_Charlie
21st November 2013, 09:32
That's the system we use and it is much better.

Turns 4 weeks Leave into 5 and a half weeks Leave or in other words 28 days Leave into 38 days Leave.

However I can't see you keeping your 'Rest Day' if this is introduced.

I hope you do get the new system being proposed.

I'm just scared of change! dont know why, i'm not even that old.

Did you get time taken off for good behaviour or something?

holdfast
21st November 2013, 09:42
Its just another cut

DeV
21st November 2013, 11:07
The rest day is protected


I'm just scared of change! dont know why, i'm not even that old.

Did you get time taken off for good behaviour or something?


Everyone is afraid of change it's natural




Its just another cut

The leave week changing is actually an increase (that will probably be cut elsewhere)

From the above it means that if you are away from Monday 1st and not due back until 0800 on Monday 7th, that used to be 7 days leave, now it will be 5 days leave and a weekend pass

RoyalGreenJacket
21st November 2013, 16:36
From the above it means that if you are away from Monday 1st and not due back until 0800 on Monday 7th, that used to be 7 days leave, now it will be 5 days leave and a weekend pass

why complicate the process? do away with 'weekend passes' and have Leave as Leave - if it covers a weekend then these are still Leave but don't come off the Leave entitlement, obviously.

there is a chance for change here, make the most of it.

Jungle
21st November 2013, 18:33
Our leave system is like the British: we count only weekdays that are not statutory holidays. Weekends are free, but usually included on leave passes as weekend days, to avoid someone putting the member on duty in the middle of leave. COs are allowed to give up to 2 days of "short leave" every month. So we end up with leave passes for the upcoming holiday season that last 23 days, but use up only 6 days of annual leave.

We get 20 days of annual leave for the first 4 years, then 25 during the 5th year of service. Then once we complete 28 years, we get 5 more days, for a total of 30.
As a general rule, most of our troops get 3 weeks summer leave, 3 weeks Christmas leave, and a one-week Spring break in March. Some guys take less during the summer to use during hunting season.

RoyalGreenJacket
21st November 2013, 19:33
we are lucky, we get a minimum of 38 days leave per year regardless of rank or time served.

in 2012 we had 45 days leave (9 weeks / 63 days in total including weekends) - the standard 38 plus 1 day for the Diamond Jubilee, 1 day for the Royal Wedding, and 5 days (1 week) for our work during the Olympics.

a virtually unlimited number of weekends can also be taken as Leave where permissible, but Duty will always prevail and fairness enforced.

we do not have any 'rest days' regardless of Duty, unless a shift system is implemented.

one days Leave is also granted for every 9 days on Operations in addition to the above.

in my opinion we have the fairest and least complicated Leave system of any Army i have encountered, and anyone basing their Leave model on ours would be wise.

Jack Booted Man
22nd November 2013, 23:29
I think we need to look at the proposals , the context and use Homer's philosophy ( Simpson ) . The DOD ( Bart) want to do this as part of Crokepark Park 2 , therefore it will screw Homer ( us) , so we fight it tooth and nail and do the opposite ( Homers philosophy) .

When members of the DF get paid and treated like the rest of the public service then maybe the bean counters can use a similar system of leave. It seems crazy , same leave regime for DF member as clerical worker in HSE ! Cancel the DF holiday for 1916..... Thank god the country was founded by soldiers and not the kind of clowns behind these proposals !

Rhodes
23rd November 2013, 00:17
I think we need to look at the proposals , the context and use Homer's philosophy ( Simpson ) . The DOD ( Bart) want to do this as part of Crokepark Park 2 , therefore it will screw Homer ( us) , so we fight it tooth and nail and do the opposite ( Homers philosophy) .

When members of the DF get paid and treated like the rest of the public service then maybe the bean counters can use a similar system of leave. It seems crazy , same leave regime for DF member as clerical worker in HSE ! Cancel the DF holiday for 1916..... Thank god the country was founded by soldiers and not the kind of clowns behind these proposals !

I agree, they are only trying to screw us, they can ram there new proposal.

hptmurphy
23rd November 2013, 00:26
I agree, they are only trying to screw us, they can ram there new proposal.

(a) As a member of the DF there is **** all you or your representitive body can do about it.

(b) As members of the public service the governments have managed to turn the consensus of public opinion on us demonizing what was gained through toil and tears to gain some degree of equality in the work place.

(c) Public service unions and representitive bodies have screwed over their members by creating criterion within certain lines of employment that are unjustifiable but were never normalized thus creating huge anomalies when it came down to scuitiny.

(d) Ironies of Ironies, those who have the tools to hand to stop it all don't have the bollocks to make it all stop.

DeV
23rd November 2013, 09:18
The DF holidays are because the DF don't get public holidays are they? With standardisation I assume they will ?

Is resting off counted as leave?

What about leave having returned from overseas?

A reduction in leave for the NS (afloat) is wrong.

holdfast
23rd November 2013, 09:46
Watch the next move will be the MSA, because if you are on leave for the weekend. they maybe MSA needs to be looked at. pricks

Rhodes
23rd November 2013, 11:08
The DF holidays are because the DF don't get public holidays are they? With standardisation I assume they will ?

Is resting off counted as leave?

What about leave having returned from overseas?

A reduction in leave for the NS (afloat) is wrong.


Here is a list of the DF holidays:

New Years day - 1st January
Saint Patrick's Day - 17th March
Good Friday
Easter Monday
May Day - first Monday in May
1916 Commemoration Day - second Wednesday in May
June Bank Holiday - first Monday in June
1921 Truce - 11th July
August Bank Holiday - first Monday in August
Feast of the Assumption - 15th August
October Bank Holiday - last Monday in October
Christmas Day - 25th December
Saint Stephen's Day - 26th December

If you work any of these days you get a day in lieu.

Resting off is not counted as leave.

Overseas leave varies. On my last trip it was 21 days leave plus two travel days during the trip, them 30 days on return home. For every month overseas you loss one days annual leave.

RoyalGreenJacket
24th November 2013, 11:53
Overseas leave varies. On my last trip it was 21 days leave plus two travel days during the trip, them 30 days on return home.

how does that work pro-rata? i mean if a guy does lets say 4 months instead of 6 months on Operations (it can and does happen) - how is Leave worked out then (in particular the Post Operational Tour Leave (POTL))?

we have a simple POTL pro-rata rate of 9 days on Operations = 1 extra day of Leave.

Rhodes
24th November 2013, 14:12
how does that work pro-rata? i mean if a guy does lets say 4 months instead of 6 months on Operations (it can and does happen) - how is Leave worked out then (in particular the Post Operational Tour Leave (POTL))?

Like I said overseas leave varies. Chad was 4 month trips, if I remember correctly I think it was six weeks leave on return home, there was no leave during the trip.


9 days on Operations = 1 extra day of Leave.

That's shit.

RoyalGreenJacket
24th November 2013, 21:57
Like I said overseas leave varies. Chad was 4 month trips, if I remember correctly I think it was six weeks leave on return home, there was no leave during the trip.

RoyalGreenJacket: "9 days on Operations = 1 extra day of Leave"

That's shit.

but there must be a proportionate 'rate' at which this is accrued fairly? what if a guy does only 2 months of a 4 month tour? does he get half his entitlement? what if a guy serves only 5 weeks or 14 weeks out of a 4 month tour - what will he get? surely you as individuals should all know EXACTLY how your Leave is worked out and what you are entitled to - broad brush blanket figure are no use to anyone.

if i am away 45 days i know i will get 5 days Leave (1 whole week), if i am away 53 days i still only get 5 days, but if i do 54 days on Ops then i get 6 days Leave (1 whole week plus one day) - it's a surefire way of knowing exactly how much Leave any of us are entitled to and it is very fair and totally proportionate.

and how is 1 day of Leave for every 9 days on Operations 'shit'? the ONH lads earn 30 days Leave (including weekends - 4 weeks and 2 days) for a 6 month tour, our guys earn 20 days Leave (not including weekends - 4 weeks) - meaning your guys actually only get 2 days more Leave than us - however - your guys lose 1 days Annual Leave for every month overseas - therefore your Leave is now effectively only 22 days (3 weeks and 1 day) while ours is still nearly a week longer.

also - your guys will have missed any Bank Holidays which occur whilst on tour - whereas we get ALL of ours back because they are included as days in our Annual Leave Entitlement - meaning we could have an extra 4 days on top of that.

so we are better off by about 2 weeks Leave than our ONH counterparts for a 6 month tour, so if our POTL Leave is 'shit' then i sympathise with you as yours is absolutely abysmal.

this is not a pi$$ing contest, it is a comparison of Leave and nothing else - ours is a modern massively researched system based on fairness and i have never heard one complaint about it and it is not under review - the ONH has a chance now to make a change and mirror our system or a proven system of another nation and improve on it where necessary, but one thing is clear - we get far more Leave in a much fairer package than most, and i really do hope for your sake that PDFORRA or whoever take a step in the right direction.

if you honestly think our proportional rate of accruing Leave is 'shit' yet it gives us more Leave days than yours - then what do you honestly think of your current system?

Rhodes
25th November 2013, 20:28
but there must be a proportionate 'rate' at which this is accrued fairly? what if a guy does only 2 months of a 4 month tour? does he get half his entitlement? what if a guy serves only 5 weeks or 14 weeks out of a 4 month tour - what will he get? surely you as individuals should all know EXACTLY how your Leave is worked out and what you are entitled to - broad brush blanket figure are no use to anyone.

if i am away 45 days i know i will get 5 days Leave (1 whole week), if i am away 53 days i still only get 5 days, but if i do 54 days on Ops then i get 6 days Leave (1 whole week plus one day) - it's a surefire way of knowing exactly how much Leave any of us are entitled to and it is very fair and totally proportionate.

and how is 1 day of Leave for every 9 days on Operations 'shit'? the ONH lads earn 30 days Leave (including weekends - 4 weeks and 2 days) for a 6 month tour, our guys earn 20 days Leave (not including weekends - 4 weeks) - meaning your guys actually only get 2 days more Leave than us - however - your guys lose 1 days Annual Leave for every month overseas - therefore your Leave is now effectively only 22 days (3 weeks and 1 day) while ours is still nearly a week longer.

also - your guys will have missed any Bank Holidays which occur whilst on tour - whereas we get ALL of ours back because they are included as days in our Annual Leave Entitlement - meaning we could have an extra 4 days on top of that.

so we are better off by about 2 weeks Leave than our ONH counterparts for a 6 month tour, so if our POTL Leave is 'shit' then i sympathise with you as yours is absolutely abysmal.

this is not a pi$$ing contest, it is a comparison of Leave and nothing else - ours is a modern massively researched system based on fairness and i have never heard one complaint about it and it is not under review - the ONH has a chance now to make a change and mirror our system or a proven system of another nation and improve on it where necessary, but one thing is clear - we get far more Leave in a much fairer package than most, and i really do hope for your sake that PDFORRA or whoever take a step in the right direction.

if you honestly think our proportional rate of accruing Leave is 'shit' yet it gives us more Leave days than yours - then what do you honestly think of your current system?

No number of leave days are deducted from overseas leave. Annual leave is separate.
IF a DF holiday is worked a day in lieu is giving.

You seem to pick and choose what you like to compare and fiddle the facts. You asked how much leave was given for a four month trip so go compare that or the leave during a trip.
If its not a pissing contest to you why did you bother make comparisons, no one asked, the question and this thread as a whole is about DF leave.

RoyalGreenJacket
25th November 2013, 22:25
i am not picking and choosing - you are:


No number of leave days are deducted from overseas leave.

but you also said:


For every month overseas you lose one days annual leave.

Leave is Leave - you are either gaining or losing days - and when you take both into account - ours is still a much more generous and fairer system that you and all members of ONH would benefit from if implemented.

like i said - no pissing competition but i am talking about something i know about and how it is worked out, which is something you seem to know very little about other than what you are told you will be given as a result of an Overseas tour - as you still could not tell me what any of the examples i gave you would work out as.

i merely pointed out and explained in detail a fairer system of Leave that PDFORRA seem to be moving towards that is similar to ours, but you came on here and said our rate of accruing Leave while on Operations was 'shit' despite you not even knowing the rate at which your own Leave for Overseas service is accrued!

and the fact that you actually said yourself you lose one day of Annual Leave every month you serve Overseas means you get a worse deal than us - so i ask you again, if our system is 'shit' yet every man knows know exactly what he is entitled to at any moment in time, and we get more Leave as a result, what would you describe yours as?

if you can't support your criticism or back it up then don't bother criticising.

i genuinely do hope you guys get a better and fairer Leave system as a result of the next change.

DeV
25th November 2013, 22:37
and the fact that you actually said yourself you lose one day of Annual Leave every month you serve Overseas means you get a worse deal than us

They may lose a day of annual leave but they gain a week of post overseas leave!

RoyalGreenJacket
25th November 2013, 23:46
They may lose a day of annual leave but they gain a week of post overseas leave!

so they cancel each other out and you are still no better off - well that's the best example i've seen of how complex the ONH Leave system is and how it needs to be revised.

just grant days Leave and have a rate of accrual to generate more Leave - as i said - Leave is Leave just keep it simple and fair - the more time you do away - the more Leave you get, likewise the less time you do away - the less Leave you get.

everyman should always know exactly what he is entitled to and not rely on a blanket figure - because there will be men who do more days and men who do less days on every Overseas Operation.

i am saying your Leave system is complex because of the above and nobody seems to know how it is accrued, not very generous because you only get 28 days annual leave including weekends, and not fair either as not everyone deploys and returns on the same day yet they all seem to get a blanket amount.

this is a forum talk about these things and if we don't talk about things then it's hard to know what is a good deal and what isn't, so hopefully you will realise that if you thought you are getting a good deal at the moment then you are way off the mark compared to other nations, and i think PDFORRA are right to seek amendments.

DeV
26th November 2013, 00:30
so they cancel each other out and you are still no better off - well that's the best example i've seen of how complex the ONH Leave system is and how it needs to be revised.

just grant days Leave and have a rate of accrual to generate more Leave - as i said - Leave is Leave just keep it simple and fair - the more time you do away - the more Leave you get, likewise the less time you do away - the less Leave you get.

everyman should always know exactly what he is entitled to and not rely on a blanket figure - because there will be men who do more days and men who do less days on every Overseas Operation.

i am saying your Leave system is complex because of the above and nobody seems to know how it is accrued, not very generous because you only get 28 days annual leave including weekends, and not fair either as not everyone deploys and returns on the same day yet they all seem to get a blanket amount.

this is a forum talk about these things and if we don't talk about things then it's hard to know what is a good deal and what isn't, so hopefully you will realise that if you thought you are getting a good deal at the moment then you are way off the mark compared to other nations, and i think PDFORRA are right to seek amendments.

I missed out a word or 2 there. It should read:

For every day of annual leave lost they gain about 7 days.

The DF doesn't generally return people from operational tours for courses or because they are due to take up a staff appointment. The only reason they will come home would be leave (if granted by the mission / compassionate), medical reasons or discipline reasons.

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2013, 01:52
who said anything about sending lads home for courses or staff jobs? I don't think any army would do that.

but even for the reasons you stated above Leave must be proportionate and fair. there are lads who go Overseas on Advance Party who usually end up on Rear Party too who tend to spend a few more weeks away than most and their Leave should also be proportionate.

so Dev - you are saying that for every day of Annual Leave lost a soldier will gain 7 days post tour Leave.

and Rhodes reckons that for every month a soldier is away he loses a day of Annual Leave - meaning that by your figures he would get 42 days Leave after every tour and not the 30 stated by Rhodes.

the figures don't add up at all.

any lad I know in ONH who returned from the Leb or elsewhere usually got about 4 weeks Leave like Rhodes said, not 7 like you are saying.

I can see why there may be changes afoot to make things hopefully fairer, clearer and less complicated than they obviously currently are.

DeV
26th November 2013, 08:23
See post 2

Even if it is 4 weeks post tour leave for 6 months, you may loose 6 days but you gain 28 days, a net gain of 22 days.

The British Army send officers back to the UK from Afghanistan when they are due to take up a new appointment / attend staff courses. There are plenty of examples in numerous books.

midnight oil
26th November 2013, 08:32
PDFORRA are nit seaking ammendments. Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF.

With regards overseas return leave, you get 30 days. If you do 2months you get 30days. If you do 1 yearnyou get 30 days. This is an automatic lesve entitlement that cannot be cancelled (unless there is a state of emergency when all bets are off).

The DF leave is very simple. You start with X leave. You can carry over Y days and if you go overseas you lose Z days per konth (fluctuates by rank)

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2013, 09:15
See post 2

Even if it is 4 weeks post tour leave for 6 months, you may loose 6 days but you gain 28 days, a net gain of 22 days.

So at the ONH 'rate' of accruing Leave while overseas for a 6 month tour you gain a net of 22 days Leave which equates to 3 weeks and one day (including weekends in your current system), whereas with our system and that which is being proposed by PDFORRA he would earn a net of 20 days which is 4 weeks (we do not included weekends in our system) - so we are 1 whole week better off immediately and we do not lose any Annual Leave as a result of Overseas service.

so I find it difficult to see how Rhodes can say our system is 'shit' when it is far better that what he is entitled to.

I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee Rhodes and realise that you aren't getting such a good deal compared to your counterparts from other nations, and if PDFORRA are successful in excluding weekends from your Leave entitlement then you will be some way to gaining a more generous Leave entitlement.

so Rhodes it's an interesting claim that you make, so our Leave system that you reckon is 'shit' - is it shit because it actually gives us more time off than your own, or is just 'shit' because of some other reason?

midnight oil
26th November 2013, 10:07
The weekend issue is a red herring. I can probably count the amount of leave I have granted people where they took a weekend that they didnt need to. In effect if you use your leave properly you will have 5.5weeks annual leave plus a potential carry over which varies by rank

Fridge Magnet
26th November 2013, 10:28
PDFORRA are nit seaking ammendments. Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF.

Did someone really say that?

midnight oil
26th November 2013, 10:35
Did someone really say that?

Yip and he is now at the highest levels within the civil service with an axe to grind.

SwiftandSure
26th November 2013, 10:40
Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF....

.....Yip and he is now at the highest levels within the civil service with an axe to grind.

Wow.

Is that on record somewhere? Is this the same chap who used to be in the Civil Defence?

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2013, 10:51
PDFORRA are nit seaking ammendments. Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF.

With regards overseas return leave, you get 30 days. If you do 2months you get 30days. If you do 1 yearnyou get 30 days. This is an automatic lesve entitlement that cannot be cancelled (unless there is a state of emergency when all bets are off).

The DF leave is very simple. You start with X leave. You can carry over Y days and if you go overseas you lose Z days per konth (fluctuates by rank)

it's unfortunate someone at the top is applying Leave in this manner, because that's the best example i have seen of how unfair and disproportionate the current Leave system is. a fairer system would be the less you serve Overseas the less Leave you earn, the more you serve Overseas the more Leave you earn.

if you applied a similar system to ours and that proposed by PDFORRA in your example - then you would get the following:

4 months = 13 days Leave = 2 weeks and 3 days Leave
6 months = 20 days Leave = 4 weeks Leave
12months = 40 days Leave = 8 weeks Leave


The weekend issue is a red herring. I can probably count the amount of leave I have granted people where they took a weekend that they didnt need to. In effect if you use your leave properly you will have 5.5weeks annual leave plus a potential carry over which varies by rank

not really - because if you need to take it - then you have to take it, i.e. - if you want to go away on holiday for lets say 4 weeks - you would need to use all of your 28 day entitlement giving you just 4 weeks off and none remaining for the year, whereas in a system that does not include weekends you would only use 20 days of your Leave and still have another week and a half off aswell as the 4 you just took.

as for the current Leave system being simple when it involves losing a certain amount of Annual Leave based on time Overseas dependent on Rank, and having to include weekends as part of - i don't see how it is. a far simpler system for example would be:

regardless of rank or time served - you ALL get 38 days Leave per year, if you go on tour you will get more (at a rate of 1 day extra for 9 days away), and weekends are never included as Leave.

job done.

i really cannot see how some of you seem to think the current Leave system in the ONH is fair, proportionate, generous or simple (and a better system is 'shit') when a much fairer, more proportionate, more generous and far less complicated Leave system is easily achieved and hopefully PDFORRA are taking a step in the right direction to implement it.

i am highlighting what can be achieved and is already out there elsewhere (and in most cases would benefit you greatly), i am comparing a Leave system, not an army or nation.

midnight oil
26th November 2013, 10:59
The proposed amendment is 20days, no weekends. So it is a max of 4weeks. The current system allows over a week and a half more so is fairer.

It is certainly not the case you are making to give people more leave. If there is a leave adjustment then people will only lose out and not gain.

The comment I refer to was referenced in a speach by the Gen Sec of RACO, the original comment was made somewhere within the last 5 years but I have neither time nor interest in searching for it

Truck Driver
26th November 2013, 11:17
The proposed amendment is 20days....

... which, funnily enough, is the Irish statutory leave entitlement

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2013, 11:20
in that respect midnight oil then you may infact be disadvantaged, i thought (probably wrongly) they were aiming for 28 days (not 20) and NOT including weekends.

that would not be good.

however i still think the whole system should be fairer, more proportionate, more generous and less complicated as highlighted previously.

DeV
26th November 2013, 11:56
PDFORRA are nit seaking ammendments. Ammendments are being thrust upon the DF by DOD, well by one individual in DOD, the one that has actually stated that the DOD would be in a much better position without the DF.

With regards overseas return leave, you get 30 days. If you do 2months you get 30days. If you do 1 yearnyou get 30 days. This is an automatic lesve entitlement that cannot be cancelled (unless there is a state of emergency when all bets are off).

The DF leave is very simple. You start with X leave. You can carry over Y days and if you go overseas you lose Z days per konth (fluctuates by rank)

In that case:
4 month tour = lose 4 days = net gain 26 days
6 month tour = lose 6 days = net gain 24 days
12 month tour = lose 12 days = net gain 18 days

Am I right?

If you take / are allowed leave during tour does that come out of annual leave?

Truck Driver
26th November 2013, 12:02
In that case:
4 month tour = lose 4 days = net gain 26 days
6 month tour = lose 6 days = net gain 24 days
12 month tour = lose 12 days = net gain 18 days

Am I right?

If you take / are allowed leave during tour does that come out of annual leave?


Well, put it to you like this Dev, anytime I've been overseas with the job, and took leave while away, it comes out of my annual entitlement
(just one bucket of hours for leave purposes, presumably much like any other job)

I'd be surprised if the PDF was any different

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2013, 13:23
In that case:
4 month tour = lose 4 days = net gain 26 days
6 month tour = lose 6 days = net gain 24 days
12 month tour = lose 12 days = net gain 18 days

Am I right?

If you take / are allowed leave during tour does that come out of annual leave?

what are you referring to here? [the word 'The' removed after Goldie pointing out I used it in error] ONH don't have an equivalent proportionate system.

in our system - R&R (Leave taken during an Operational Tour) is granted in addition to Annual Leave.

Goldie fish
26th November 2013, 13:58
There is no "The" in your use of ONH. It makes as much sense as saying ATM Machine.

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2013, 14:25
There is no "The" in your use of ONH.

since edited and removed, apologies for any distress this may have caused.

midnight oil
26th November 2013, 14:30
FWIW officers lose much more than one day a month when returning from overseas. Officers lose one day for every day of leave granted in the mission area. So say you get 18days in UNIFIL then reduce your annual leave allowance by 18days upon return home.

Suddenly a man losing 6days on return home doesnt look quite so bad

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2013, 14:54
FWIW officers lose much more than one day a month when returning from overseas. Officers lose one day for every day of leave granted in the mission area. So say you get 18days in UNIFIL then reduce your annual leave allowance by 18days upon return home.

Suddenly a man losing 6days on return home doesnt look quite so bad

why be penalised for serving Overseas? they should be gaining Leave, not losing it.

midnight oil
26th November 2013, 15:00
I can only assume it was plea bargained away for something else in a round of negotiations. Given the frequency of officers serving overseas it is hardly a pressing concern.

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2013, 15:04
I can only assume it was plea bargained away for something else in a round of negotiations. Given the frequency of officers serving overseas it is hardly a pressing concern.

it's a man's Leave we are talking about - of course it is a pressing concern.

as i said earlier - any Leave system should be fair.

midnight oil
26th November 2013, 15:16
It is a fair system. Given that it is not something that is not something discussed at work / in the mess testifies that no one has any issues with the current leave system for officers. There are more differences but I am not going into them here.

I dont care what the BA or the French or the Fire Brigade have as it is of no consequence to me, just like my leave has no bearing on you. I personally have no issues with my current leave entitlements. Like most officers and many many NCOs and Men I end up losing leave every year as I just cannot justify taking it and / or end up having to do 3 weeks work if I take 3 weeks leave so if you are able to take 7 weeks off every year then I wonder what the hell you do every day if your unit can manage without you for nearly two months a year

midnight oil
26th November 2013, 15:17
Also losing a handful of days every 4years is hardly going to kill anyone. I actually do know why it changed and we are better off for it both financially and otherwise

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2013, 15:53
it's not going to kill anyone but it is going to deny them of Leave which in a fair system they would be entitled to.

fcuking with someones Leave and being so flippant about it not good, and i can't see it being tolerated in many organisations like it seems to be here.

midnight oil
26th November 2013, 16:02
It is not ****ing with anyones leave. There is a DFR and an Admin Instr that deals with leave. Everyone in the DF knows their entitlements. There is no ****ing. It is very clear cut.

I can see issues with the BA system but this is not the place to criticise

RoyalGreenJacket
26th November 2013, 16:45
ok midnight, but it doesn't bode well when the attitude to someone losing Leave unfairly (compared to others) is "it won't kill anyone".

just because there is an AI doesn't mean it is fair either and i would question that, which i am told is what used to happen years ago in our system when Officers were subject to different Leave to Soldiers until it was revised and made fair and equal.

i was hoping this was something PDFORRA were aiming for but apparently not.