PDA

View Full Version : manning levels, the future.



Sparky42
21st June 2016, 18:55
you say this every time, and you always put it at the top o the 'whats needed?' list - but its not true.

in Irish EPV/MRV would (in the context of the current op) go to the Med in April and stay there until October, it would port in Italy and Malta and its crew would rotate.

6 month, 12 month, 18 month deployments are relatively routine in Navies - hell, even Submarines can do 11 month deployments (the crew must look like uncooked chips after that...).

an Irish EPV/MRV that was part of a relatively modern, 9 ship fleet would spend the overwhelming majority of its life on overseas duty - 6 months in the Med/Indian Ocean, exercises with the Army/AC both at home and with EUBG, defence diplomacy, support for UN/EU ops, humanitarian relief in the Carribean...

the idea that the EPV/MRV is a fisheries protection ship that will get dobbed to do other things once a decade utterly, utterly wrong.

To be fair I'm not sure about 12/18 month deployments, I mean aren't there news reports about issues with the RN hulls having moved to 9 month deployments (among other issues), and even the USN has paid a price for extended tours in terms of support and maintenance issues.

That being said I totally agree about what the EPV/MRV should be used for if we go down that route rather than stay in EEZ operations.

hptmurphy
21st June 2016, 20:35
an Irish EPV/MRV that was part of a relatively modern, 9 ship fleet would spend the overwhelming majority of its life on overseas duty - 6 months in the Med/Indian Ocean, exercises with the Army/AC both at home and with EUBG, defence diplomacy, support for UN/EU ops, humanitarian relief in the Carribean..


Should... being the word , not would!

You are assuming that we will have a 9 ship Navy , if we ever get around to MRV / EPV. While the numbers look good on paper over the next five years,a third of that fleet, will be all but 35 years old and needing replacement, another two units will be approaching 21/23 years service.

personally I think it will be hulls in the water to supplement what we already have in a standard OPV fit rather than elusive one off builds and Blue / Green Ops machines.

And for all that bombed up stuff that gets bandied about, thats Frigates, not OPVs, frigates need speed in excess of thirty knots to be effective,some combination of Gas Turbines and requiring at least double the shaft horse power of an OPV to get it over the 30kt mark, all that will take either buying a FREMM off the shelf or a build we have no idea of.

So 90m to 110 OPVs will be the future for some considerable time.

DeV
21st June 2016, 21:40
Why does the NS primarilly need bigger ships? Because Irish home waters are now bigger in area and more challenging in terms of conditions

Why does the NS primarilly need more vessels (apart from replacing existing hulls)? Because Irish home water are under policed (and they are now much bigger).

The NS is unable to retain people with 21 days patrols (I've seen somewhere that those are now broken up to give a bit more time at home), when they are between patrols they are on X hrs NTM at practically all times, when the ship is in dock the crew are involved in maintenance.

So P70 goes to the Med with a crew for say 60 days and then the crew rotate. What will the crew be doing when they get back? Going back to sea, doing duties at the base, being at X hrs NTM.

The NS can't retain enough people to crew 8 ships (and provide for rotation).

Larger navies can deploy a ship for 6-12 months, rotate crews, put a ship into refit for 12 months etc and give guaranteed leave.

The DF by the way are trying to modularise longer courses so people aren't away from home for say 9 months of the C&S Cse. They are also offering something like a job share for overseas (eg on a 6 month tour, you could do 3 months and then someone replaces you for the remaining 3 months).

ancientmariner
22nd June 2016, 09:54
The NS can't retain enough people to crew 8 ships (and provide for rotation).

Larger navies can deploy a ship for 6-12 months, rotate crews, put a ship into refit for 12 months etc and give guaranteed leave.

The DF by the way are trying to modularise longer courses so people aren't away from home for say 9 months of the C&S Cse. They are also offering something like a job share for overseas (eg on a 6 month tour, you could do 3 months and then someone replaces you for the remaining 3 months).

Retention of personnel is down to personnel management and realistic deployment ,with rotation in theatre, every 4-6 months. My class had a six month CSCE and a 3month SSCse, some Senior officers did not value that Command and Staff Course at full value, certificates were eventually issued, reluctantly, much later by brown envelope post. That was 1976. Glad to say it produced a few Generals eventually.
Assuming the Flagship is replaced by a larger vessel then that vessel should be planned around certain capabilities such as undertaking Flagship/Command duties, ability to resupply Army/Naval stores by collecting military/naval stores from overseas, ability to transport a Coy strength in relative comfort, ability to act as a humanitarian/ hospital ship in pop-up crises, and ability to Defend and Protect itself and adjacent attachments.
It should also have a working flight deck to handle stores ,and personnel, with suitable cargo lifts for the former. What that ship will look like will only emerge from Builders proposals taking into account all tasks envisaged. We are peeing in the wind trying to second guess each other until we see such proposals.

DeV
22nd June 2016, 11:52
Longer deployments and even less time off between patrols isn't going to improve the situation

Turkey
22nd June 2016, 13:47
They will have to just raise the establishment figures, pay people extra to be away, and involve the reserve, if it still exists after all their messing with it.

The Usual Suspect
22nd June 2016, 16:24
MINISTER'S DAIL ANSWERS Tuesday 21st June 2016

Yesterday I signed off on the commission for a fourth vessel. The UK contractors will start building that fourth ship in the next few weeks.

Thanks to Kieran Marum

Expect something on DoD (http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/$$ViewTemplate%20for%20Press%20Releases?openform), DF (http://www.military.ie/en/home/), and Naval Service (http://www.military.ie/en/naval-service/) websites shortly.

Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/), RTE (http://www.rte.ie/news/index.html), and The Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/) thereafter.

Agree LE Seamus Heaney has to be the early favourite...

DeV
22nd June 2016, 17:25
They will have to just raise the establishment figures, pay people extra to be away, and involve the reserve, if it still exists after all their messing with it.

Raising the establishment just means more jobs unfilled (more double and triple jobbing)
Outside DF control
FLR is currently being used to keep ships at sea

Galloglass
22nd June 2016, 17:38
Raising the establishment just means more jobs unfilled (more double and triple jobbing)
Outside DF control
FLR is currently being used to keep ships at sea

I think Turkey means hire MORE sailors Dev.

The Usual Suspect
22nd June 2016, 17:41
Had no idea DeV that things were as stressed as this. Obvious radical and comprehensive reform is needed as a matter of urgency.

This might be totally nave, but would there be any prospect of the temporary secondment of 'fusiliers' PDF/RDF from other branches to do some of the heavy lifting and ease the most acute effects. Army/AC Captains to receive the honorofic 'Major' while on base/aboard etc.

DeV
22nd June 2016, 19:28
I think Turkey means hire MORE sailors Dev.

That is the strength.

They are leaving faster than they can be replaced


Had no idea DeV that things were as stressed as this. Obvious radical and comprehensive reform is needed as a matter of urgency.

This might be totally nave, but would there be any prospect of the temporary secondment of 'fusiliers' PDF/RDF from other branches to do some of the heavy lifting and ease the most acute effects. Army/AC Captains to receive the honorofic 'Major' while on base/aboard etc.

AFAIK the FLR haven't been called up permanently, but they have been called up all the same

AFAIK it is tech's (watchkeepers, ERAs etc) that the main issues are with the people that take a lot of time and experience to train

restless
22nd June 2016, 19:49
maybe if ns lowered the eyesight requirement from an almost 20/20 requirement it would increase numbers. i know of 3 young lads, one of whom has had a life long dream to join up, only to be rejected due to not quiet meeting criteria, and it galls him to see all ranks on ns facebook wearing glasses.

Turkey
22nd June 2016, 20:31
I mean people Dev, the size of the NS has to get bigger, by at least 200 bodies...

DeV
22nd June 2016, 21:45
I mean people Dev, the size of the NS has to get bigger, by at least 200 bodies...

Yes strength (ie actual people) as opposed to establishment (how many they should have)

ancientmariner
23rd June 2016, 12:05
This might be totally nave, but would there be any prospect of the temporary secondment of 'fusiliers' PDF/RDF from other branches to do some of the heavy lifting and ease the most acute effects. Army/AC Captains to receive the honorofic 'Major' while on base/aboard etc.

Navy needs qualified Navigators, marine engineers, and electronic/electrical engineers. Glasses don't disbar seagoing but colour blindness limits employment to the Q side only. Most army officers have never been at sea. The concept is kind but naive.

Tempest
23rd June 2016, 15:20
To put all it's aircraft in the air the AC needs less then 50 bodies.

To put 8 ships at sea requires 8 times that number.

Yet there is not that much difference in their establishments. How it can require 850 people to run 23 relatively small aircraft (with civvies added on as well) is surely a problem. Dropping the AC establishment and increase the NS establishment pro rata would surely be sensible?

DeV
23rd June 2016, 16:12
To put all it's aircraft in the air the AC needs less then 50 bodies.

To put 8 ships at sea requires 8 times that number.

Yet there is not that much difference in their establishments. How it can require 850 people to run 23 relatively small aircraft (with civvies added on as well) is surely a problem. Dropping the AC establishment and increase the NS establishment pro rata would surely be sensible?

Just over actually, but it may take 3 times that number to maintain them (possibly increase to allow for 24/7 cover), there are limitations on pilots and they can't fly an aircraft 24/7 so you need to increase that. Add in admin of units, stores, air base, ATC, ground handling, catering, fire, GoH, leave etc and the numbers quickly add up.

Is there not enough balance of ops -V- non-ops ? Probably
Should ops be the priority? Definitely
Room to manoeuvre? Probably

But possibly not 200 jobs.

The real Jack
23rd June 2016, 16:44
If they expand the navy I guarantee they'll keep the Df Manning ceiling and just bin an infantry coy or 2.

hptmurphy
23rd June 2016, 20:45
This might be totally nave, but would there be any prospect of the temporary secondment of 'fusiliers' PDF/RDF from other branches to do some of the heavy lifting and ease the most acute effects. Army/AC Captains to receive the honorofic 'Major' while on base/aboard etc.

Yeah..and we'll get vets to work in hospitals to clear back logs!

danno
23rd June 2016, 22:17
Navy needs qualified Navigators, marine engineers, and electronic/electrical engineers. Glasses don't disbar seagoing but colour blindness limits employment to the Q side only. Most army officers have never been at sea. The concept is kind but naive.

Let the secondees do base duties etc and let the sailors do the sailing.

Laners
24th June 2016, 06:19
I believe all the catering in UK military bases is done by civie companies .

ancientmariner
24th June 2016, 09:32
Let the secondees do base duties etc and let the sailors do the sailing.

The nature of a seagoing career is a cycle of shipboard assignments followed by a period ashore, The seagoing replacements section is a vital part of keeping ships manned, and provides training staffs, unscheduled reliefs at sea, courses, overseas DF appointments. It is untenable to have someone at sea forever. Numbers can be met by, having for a period of two years, with a review, a recruiting open door policy to get 4/6 fully trained classes of sea personnel in that period. You keep numbers up by continually topping up NFA's from a panel to achieve a final output of 200 sea persons.
The male/female ratio policy needs to be applied sensibly to ensure ability of ships to function socially, domestically, with fair sea/shore ratios for all.

DeV
24th June 2016, 11:02
If we had waited a few days would we have saved a few million?

Medsailor
24th June 2016, 11:45
If we had waited a few days would we have saved a few million?

None of us will save a penny (or cent), we'll all pay through the nose for this folly.

sofa
24th June 2016, 18:10
I believe all the catering in UK military bases is done by civie companies .

True and a lot of the staff running them chefs etc are ex BA

DeV
24th June 2016, 18:58
So when the A/Cook has done his 2 years at sea who replaces him? Another A/Cook who has been doing admin/duties for 2 years?

hptmurphy
25th June 2016, 00:02
I believe all the catering in UK military bases is done by civie companies .

Sodexho

hptmurphy
25th June 2016, 00:09
So when the A/Cook has done his 2 years at sea who replaces him? Another A/Cook who has been doing admin/duties for 2 years?

And who do you think has been preparing meals in the base all along?

DeV
25th June 2016, 00:59
And who do you think has been preparing meals in the base all along?

That's my point.

If you privatise the cooks in the dining hall, there is no where for the cooks to go when on shore rotation.

spider
25th June 2016, 12:43
I was chatting to a Chief Chips on exercise recently (WO2 Chef).

He told me that the British Army only recruited 24 Chefs last year...

The future is apparently, contractors in MOB's...with Army Chefs and Army Reserve Chefs from this lot further forward...

http://www.army.mod.uk/logistic/regiments/26026.aspx

hptmurphy
25th June 2016, 21:32
Sodexho might do deliveries!

DeV
25th June 2016, 22:07
Sodexho might do deliveries!

That's what type naval UAVs are for :)

DeV
20th July 2016, 21:59
The NS hit the 10,000 rescue mark today

RoyalGreenJacket
21st July 2016, 19:50
That's my point.

If you privatise the cooks in the dining hall, there is no where for the cooks to go when on shore rotation.

in most of our bases Military Chefs still work in the kitchens - with Sodexo, or whichever provider has the catering contract.

ancientmariner
22nd July 2016, 12:32
There used to be, in the BA, an Army Catering Corps, now in this age of doing things better, we have The Royal Logistics Corps, under which bullets, beans,and POL are all part of the supply and delivery system. They have of course killed off old allegiances and dovetailed private catering into shore based units. None of which would work in operational scenarios. Enforced modernisation, by the mandarins , on military/naval systems, is a cost cutting exercise, and usually mean you get less with less.

hptmurphy
22nd July 2016, 14:11
Enforced modernisation, by the mandarins , on military/naval systems, is a cost cutting exercise, and usually mean you get less with less.

Not necessarily , the army here use service companies in a lot of kitchens and it frees up people from menial tasks to perform other duties.

Outsourcing would free up a lot of people for other duties, in the case of the NS , sea going. Get rid of security duties and employ a force that solely do this as a sole tasking again releasing people .

The DF need to take a joint step into the 21st century in relation to these type of roles, we have too few people to be tied up doing jobs which could be carried out more efficiently by contractors.

expat01
22nd July 2016, 15:46
I'm not sure I like the idea of anyone but the military securing military bases.

na grohmit
22nd July 2016, 15:53
What's best international practice?

DeV
1st August 2016, 21:20
NS are currently recruiting DE Ops Branch (watchkeeping) and Engr (Marine & Electrical) officers.

http://www.military.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/careers/DE_NS_2016/T_Cs_DE_NSOfficers_16.pdf

ancientmariner
2nd August 2016, 13:49
NS are currently recruiting DE Ops Branch (watchkeeping) and Engr (Marine & Electrical) officers.

http://www.military.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/careers/DE_NS_2016/T_Cs_DE_NSOfficers_16.pdf

This is an onerous undertaken which must be run by a top cadre of Officers and NCO's. All DE officers should undergo a new entry training course covering drills, All Arms drills, Guards, Inspections, documentation, accounts, including estimates, DFR's , divisional duties and Messes.
The DE officer should also have Branch Training in Naval Navigation procedures, Gunnery etc. Other Branch officers should receive Type training on Engineering and Electrical systems as appropriate. Such courses could run for at least 12-14 weeks with refresher elements to follow where necessary. At all costs an overwhelmed, hung out to dry ,officer must be avoided.

Graylion
2nd August 2016, 14:28
question from newbie. How is the NS and the rest of the service doing for recruiting?

hptmurphy
2nd August 2016, 15:28
This is an onerous undertaken which must be run by a top cadre of Officers and NCO's. All DE officers should undergo a new entry training course covering drills, All Arms drills, Guards, Inspections, documentation, accounts, including estimates, DFR's , divisional duties and Messes.
The DE officer should also have Branch Training in Naval Navigation procedures, Gunnery etc. Other Branch officers should receive Type training on Engineering and Electrical systems as appropriate. Such courses could run for at least 12-14 weeks with refresher elements to follow where necessary. At all costs an overwhelmed, hung out to dry ,officer must be avoided.

Civvy to Sub Lt in 14 weeks quite do able given all the cadet bullshit will be removed and the people already hold a qualification that is applicable to the job.

I do find the qualification criteria puzzling. You actually qualify for the selection process if you are a refugee????

If it's a short service commission is extension of service again based on a maximum engagement contract and if so what rank will candidates have been expected to attain by end of contract?

It mentions a short service commission pay rate.

Is this payable annually as an allowance or as a gratuity on termination of contract.

For what it's worth this is the most foward thinking move the NS has made in relation to recruitment in 30 years.

It was offered piecemeal in the past but this now could make it a regular recruitment tool for executive branch officers.


I DO

DeV
2nd August 2016, 17:11
question from newbie. How is the NS and the rest of the service doing for recruiting?
Around 400 short of establishment


I do find the qualification criteria puzzling. You actually qualify for the selection process if you are a refugee????
Have been for around 10 years or so


If it's a short service commission is extension of service again based on a maximum engagement contract and if so what rank will candidates have been expected to attain by end of contract?

3 years as a Sub/Lt is the offer (they get a bonus at the end of each year unless after 18 months service they have entered a normal commission).

Promotion reads like ask RACO to make a submission


For what it's worth this is the most foward thinking move the NS has made in relation to recruitment in 30 years.[/QUOTE]
Not the first time in the last 20 years

hptmurphy
2nd August 2016, 17:33
Ir ws offered on a ad hoc basis on a couple of occasions. It could be offered on a two year basis now as part of scheduled recruitment. ..which hadn't been done in 30 years!

na grohmit
2nd August 2016, 19:16
Necessity. The NS just can't keep young officers in the current economic climate. Out of one class of ten cadets, who should all now be approaching LT(NS) rank, only one remains. Many of the rest were poached by german retailers based in Ireland, with the offer of 60k per annum plus company Audi A4.
Until the DF can compete with that, it will continue losing those in their late 20s and early 30s to the civilian world.

hptmurphy
2nd August 2016, 22:20
So why bother with all the high end investment in cadets and just get them in on short service commissions.

Makes sense realistically. No long term financial commitment

danno
2nd August 2016, 22:54
Its the same throughout the Public Service where certain workers have skills needed by private concerns. There was an article in late 2015 where the State Solicitors office in Dublin couldnt recruit solicitors at 30k pa whilst the big firms were offering newbies 55-60k pa.

DeV
3rd August 2016, 01:23
Necessity. The NS just can't keep young officers in the current economic climate. Out of one class of ten cadets, who should all now be approaching LT(NS) rank, only one remains. Many of the rest were poached by german retailers based in Ireland, with the offer of 60k per annum plus company Audi A4.
Until the DF can compete with that, it will continue losing those in their late 20s and early 30s to the civilian world.
Except they will be burnt out within 3 years. They are worked for that salary. Some of those recruited by the likes of Lidl haven't lasted a year with them.



So why bother with all the high end investment in cadets and just get them in on short service commissions.

Makes sense realistically. No long term financial commitment

Currently cadets are commissioned on a 3 year SSC which is the duration of their training. Is that part of the issue.

Toolbox
3rd August 2016, 07:51
Necessity. The NS just can't keep young officers in the current economic climate. Out of one class of ten cadets, who should all now be approaching LT(NS) rank, only one remains. Many of the rest were poached by german retailers based in Ireland, with the offer of 60k per annum plus company Audi A4.
Until the DF can compete with that, it will continue losing those in their late 20s and early 30s to the civilian world.


Eh not exactly 100% correct only one NS officer workig for a supermarket (Two NCO's are working on manager ref prog). Anecdotally the 10 or so army offices that left o do the same are now dropping out of the while thing as the hours are fairly insane?

one of the bigger issues is pay is fairly poor for junior offices, the pension is now terrible (careers average payment) and their are no real perks.

The object of the DE officers is to get bums on seats as fast as possible, they will never be considered "real" officers in any case and like the last lot most will be driven from service within a decade!

It will be fascinating to see what the up take is this time as the last lot where on better wages etc.

hptmurphy
3rd August 2016, 11:33
Problem there straight away 'real officers '

Given some very noteworthy officers in the past were DE's one even decorated were these not real officers despite their 30 year contribution to the service. . Up to Liam Moloney all the Flag officers were DE'S as we're a large portion of the top MEOs

I do understand the sentiments attached to EDS but the fact is without them the NS is having problems.

The high turn over thing has always been an issue and even without the financial issues attached the inability to provide scheduled relief is a bigger issue to my mind.

Hence welcome the DEs with open arms.

On the point of the leavers going to greener pastures. Anyone who leaves to join the retail multiples on the conditions mention can expect to be working 60 - 70 hour weeks under huge pressure. At that level they expect high burn out and probably expect very resilient people coming from the DF. However the types of pressure around making money and driving ships are incomparable and the guys at the retail end are merciless. As an officer you have team to help seal with issues..in retail the guy behind you is lining himself up for your job when you slip.

As for the jobs

ancientmariner
4th August 2016, 10:06
[QUOTE=hptmurphy;443434]Problem there straight away 'real officers '

"(Given some very noteworthy officers in the past were DE's one even decorated were these not real officers despite their 30 year contribution to the service. . Up to Liam Moloney all the Flag officers were DE'S as we're a large portion of the top MEOs

I do understand the sentiments attached to EDS but the fact is without them the NS is having problems").

I agree with your views. The challenge for the Naval Service is to make them as REAL officers as is possible. It is important to try and maintain an Naval Ethic within the service and imbue a fighting spirit and a willingness to go in harms way where and when necessary. How it will all go is largely down to leadership and mindset of those tasked with selecting and training new entrants. The advantage for this recruitment is that the ships and environment on offer is technically advanced and will not dilute their career experience.

ancientmariner
8th October 2017, 10:43
[QUOTE=hptmurphy;443434]Problem there straight away 'real officers '

"(Given some very noteworthy officers in the past were DE's one even decorated were these not real officers despite their 30 year contribution to the service. . Up to Liam Moloney all the Flag officers were DE'S as we're a large portion of the top MEOs

I do understand the sentiments attached to EDS but the fact is without them the NS is having problems").

I agree with your views. The challenge for the Naval Service is to make them as REAL officers as is possible. It is important to try and maintain an Naval Ethic within the service and imbue a fighting spirit and a willingness to go in harms way where and when necessary. How it will all go is largely down to leadership and mindset of those tasked with selecting and training new entrants. The advantage for this recruitment is that the ships and environment on offer is technically advanced and will not dilute their career experience..

Due to the Emergency nature of recruitment in the PDF, based on minimising overall cost, we are continually losing ground against experience and using our best people as training cadres. Recent promotional Naval pictures showed DE officers under training so obviously Cadet intakes are not keeping pace. The PDF are about to recruit 1600 personnel over two years to bring the overall figure to 9600 all ranks. This represents 40 classes of 40 recruits all requiring section NCO's and officers for training and assessment for final approval. Given normal unit losses for all reasons , coupled with recruit losses in training, the recruitment target should be nearer 2000, to try and reach the 9600 level.
An open door policy, on recruitment, for up to four years would help to offset the attrition suffered on service strengths. It is an indictment of our controllers that strengths are publicly admitted to be almost 17% below permitted levels with deeper shortages in certain ranks and trades.

DeV
8th October 2017, 16:49
[QUOTE=ancientmariner;443457].

Due to the Emergency nature of recruitment in the PDF, based on minimising overall cost, we are continually losing ground against experience and using our best people as training cadres. Recent promotional Naval pictures showed DE officers under training so obviously Cadet intakes are not keeping pace. The PDF are about to recruit 1600 personnel over two years to bring the overall figure to 9600 all ranks. This represents 40 classes of 40 recruits all requiring section NCO's and officers for training and assessment for final approval. Given normal unit losses for all reasons , coupled with recruit losses in training, the recruitment target should be nearer 2000, to try and reach the 9600 level.
An open door policy, on recruitment, for up to four years would help to offset the attrition suffered on service strengths. It is an indictment of our controllers that strengths are publicly admitted to be almost 17% below permitted levels with deeper shortages in certain ranks and trades.

This 800 figure annually is being bigged up a lot, all the way through most of the 00s, they were taking on that many so it's a non story.

You'll also notice DE NCOs.

The issue is pay, terms and conditions. If you may the lot of the people more sustainable (e.g. less duties, shorter working week etc), even if you can't provide the pay it will help with the morale.

ancientmariner
15th November 2017, 18:07
[QUOTE=ancientmariner;454923]

This 800 figure annually is being bigged up a lot, all the way through most of the 00s, they were taking on that many so it's a non story.

You'll also notice DE NCOs.

The issue is pay, terms and conditions. If you may the lot of the people more sustainable (e.g. less duties, shorter working week etc), even if you can't provide the pay it will help with the morale.

Nothing much changes except the GS numbers are to be increased to 15,000 and all Branches of the PDF are to be stalled at 9,500, which is a figure which maximises duty intervals and diminishes deployability.

ancientmariner
8th December 2017, 09:42
[QUOTE=DeV;454924]

Nothing much changes except the GS numbers are to be increased to 15,000 and all Branches of the PDF are to be stalled at 9,500, which is a figure which maximises duty intervals and diminishes deployability.

Well! Well! Ireland has now joined a European Defence Service by 72 votes to 42 votes in the Dail. Better known as PESCO it is in the process of being formed , and following a Council decision will be adopted by majority vote before the end of 2017.
Permanent Structured Cooperation ( PESCO ) will be a framework for closer coop and a structured process to gradually deepen defence coop within the EU. " It will be a driver for integration in the Defence field".
It involves agreed Budgets, and Plans, and involves oversight and regular assessment. It's to reinforce EU's autonomy to act alone in Defence matters with willing partners, and with regional integration such as the European Air Transport Command and Belgian-Dutch Navy Cooperation in regional Defence. There must be a hope we can upgrade to fit in with our Allies.

trellheim
8th December 2017, 10:10
if you are following our other threads there is a good discussion about PESCO

sofa
8th December 2017, 19:32
Very Good article by Ian O' Doherty in Thursdays Indo on the Defence Forces, Can not up load it myself. But would be greatful if someone could.

ancientmariner
21st April 2018, 09:56
Very Good article by Ian O' Doherty in Thursdays Indo on the Defence Forces, Can not up load it myself. But would be greatful if someone could.

Given the continuing move towards European Defence Co-operation, we are miserably short of dedicated secure Naval Berthage. Historically we had the Naval Base, Basin berths, and an Oil Wharf used by default as a standby short term berth. We also had a Naval Buoy in Dunlaoghaire which we traded for what we called the Naval Berth on the inner southern arm of Dunlaoghaire Pier. We also had some anchorage rights in Bere island and Lough Swilly.
By and large we have been edged out to alongside at Base only and as visitors on paid sufferance elsewhere. With up to 9 ships, and a steady stream of Naval visitors we need to provide for more dedicated, secure naval Berths nationally.

na grohmit
21st April 2018, 10:32
Is dunlaoighre still available, with the new plans for the harbour?
With the Port of Cork moving downstream, there is an opportunity for the NS to secure berthage at the South Jetties and Tivoli for all but the Largest of vessels. The future use of these jetties will be residential, and the quay space will be barely used, but are already well equipped for services and secure access.

DeV
21st April 2018, 10:54
Is dunlaoighre still available, with the new plans for the harbour?
With the Port of Cork moving downstream, there is an opportunity for the NS to secure berthage at the South Jetties and Tivoli for all but the Largest of vessels. The future use of these jetties will be residential, and the quay space will be barely used, but are already well equipped for services and secure access.

Under the 2011 Master Plan, Dun Laoghaire would still be available

ancientmariner
21st April 2018, 13:34
Under the 2011 Master Plan, Dun Laoghaire would still be available

To allow for access of ferries we were asked to remove the permanent Naval Buoy, in return we were allocated a berth eventually described by us as a Naval pier. However , over time certain precedent requirements of the Harbour interests saw our maneuvering room restricted and also certain payments were required. We also had incidents involving attempts of unmooring the ship. The pier is a public access and unsecure.
The same parameters apply to Cork City Berths other than the gated area at the ex-Harbour Buildings now being sold. There seems to be no provision for State Visits of VIP warships. These matters need to be included in National plans along with ship repair/building.

ancientmariner
24th May 2018, 09:35
To allow for access of ferries we were asked to remove the permanent Naval Buoy, in return we were allocated a berth eventually described by us as a Naval pier. However , over time certain precedent requirements of the Harbour interests saw our maneuvering room restricted and also certain payments were required. We also had incidents involving attempts of unmooring the ship. The pier is a public access and unsecure.
The same parameters apply to Cork City Berths other than the gated area at the ex-Harbour Buildings now being sold. There seems to be no provision for State Visits of VIP warships. These matters need to be included in National plans along with ship repair/building.

As far as Naval Future can be foreseen, it is clear that, to be effective, assets have to be capable, deployable, and expediently positioned in the area of operations, with all supports adjacent in nearby Ports or on Fleet Logs ships. Squeezing more toothpaste into the tube at Haulbowline shows that collateral consequences need to be evaluated to prevent overload of the system. As for recruiting, MOD plan on paper only with little provision for maintaining quality and encouraging a retentive envoironment for personnel and families. I'm judging that due to the multi-layering of Ministries that proposals to do things are not followed through to a functioning outcome.

ancientmariner
17th October 2018, 16:41
As far as Naval Future can be foreseen, it is clear that, to be effective, assets have to be capable, deployable, and expediently positioned in the area of operations, with all supports adjacent in nearby Ports or on Fleet Logs ships. Squeezing more toothpaste into the tube at Haulbowline shows that collateral consequences need to be evaluated to prevent overload of the system. As for recruiting, MOD plan on paper only with little provision for maintaining quality and encouraging a retentive envoironment for personnel and families. I'm judging that due to the multi-layering of Ministries that proposals to do things are not followed through to a functioning outcome.

In today's Irish Examiner there is comment about recruitment and retention failures in the Naval service and consequential difficulty in manning ships. The problem lies with civil leadership and to a lesser extent Staffs. Overall we lack a Defence Culture and give very little coverage to good news stories, or opportunities within the Defence Forces. Huge effort has gone in to providing Naval Hardware, but manning is too much based on waiting to see what will turn up. Critical technicians will have to be subject to a quota release scheme based on date of application. The same rules will have to be applied to key qualified Officers. Where a person is over-retained in Service he should receive a gratuity of say at least E 5000 per annum and prorata for a portion of a year. For example if three watchkeeping Officers wish to leave and the quota for that year is two then the later applicant will be retained until the next quota, when he/she will be number 1. The retention gratuity could be fixed at the same amount , i.e. E5000 for all ranks.

TangoSierra
17th October 2018, 18:08
Until a realistic crew manning level of 2 crews per ship (circa 900) and THEN factor in shore support, the NS will continue to experience severe HR issues

Fantasia
17th October 2018, 18:27
What happens in a few years when the only consistency, the NCOs with 15+ years done, that train the ratings and train the officers all get to 21 years and pull the plug?

The only thing keeping the NS afloat is the NCOs that are not yet pensionable

koppiteal
17th October 2018, 19:36
Any truth in rumour NSR are being invited to transfer across to NS

DeV
17th October 2018, 19:58
Any truth in rumour NSR are being invited to transfer across to NS
Lol’ed when I read that

DeV
17th October 2018, 20:08
What would help is also not making it easy for junior NS officers to leave immediately on completion of their training.

trellheim
17th October 2018, 20:11
[Any truth in rumour NSR are being invited to transfer across to NSrumour doing the rounds all right. ABs LS/PO or Officers ?

na grohmit
17th October 2018, 20:32
There are members of the NS who are in civvy street, maritime watchkeeping officers and marine engineers. Their skills would be most welcome at this time (should they be appropriately compensated).

popeye
17th October 2018, 21:19
This is not a ballhop, no details on it yet but people have been asked for expressions of interest. Hard to see many people taking up the offer if it happens given the poor pay in the PDF and NSR people know how bad things are in the NS.

trellheim
17th October 2018, 21:37
Why is there a need to transfer to the PDF ? Reservists served fulltime for many years in the 70s and 80s both as Officers and ORs , the precedent is there.

DeV
17th October 2018, 22:25
Why is there a need to transfer to the PDF ? Reservists served fulltime for many years in the 70s and 80s both as Officers and ORs , the precedent is there.

I assume that they were called up for permanent service?


Because there is no legislation that allows transfer from RDF to PDF

Bravo20
18th October 2018, 07:36
They were initially called up for permanent service but some then transferred into the PDF. By whatever mechanism I don't know but it happened. One of the last Sgt Major of CTD East was one as far as I know.

hptmurphy
18th October 2018, 14:16
The stupidity of the management that has allowed the shortage to exist in the first place even beyond the scope of poor pay etc is unforgivable. To surrender, under PWC, what was in effect the compliment of a ship, and then build new ships without factoring in a requirement to increase the establishment of the service is not about anything other than bad planning.

Transferring persons to whole time service from volunteer part time service is fraught with issues around, pensions and reckonable service for pay purposes , assuming that persons would take up the issue. You would have effect people moving to ranks that now cannot be filled by new entrants to the service thus blocking promotions which could actually fuel an even greater exodus.

There is no cheap solution, Tie up what can't be operate on pre 2009 levels of manning and conditions with reliefs etc, restore the pay scales to pre 2010 levels and then incentivise recruitment with bounties paid to people who actively encourage friends and family to join.

Short service commissions for suitably qualified watch keepers both engineering and executive branch, with bonus's paid on re enlistment across the boards. Reduce the initial five year contract for enlistment back to three and remove pension levy for those on first enagement.

The management need to take positive action, even if it means putting heads above parapets , to stop the decline.

Bravo20
18th October 2018, 15:39
It all depends on how they do this. If they move the reservist from being a member of the RDF to the PDF then yes, it is holding up an appointment etc. If this is a temporary thing i.e. they are brought up on full time service without the 28 day restriction then they are getting people in addition to establishment.

I do not see what the reservist gets out of this other than increased sea time but then again if I was in my early 20s just starting out in the work place with no responsibilities this might just have been the thing I would have tried just to see what it was like.

Laners
18th October 2018, 15:41
Why bother having a reserve in the first place if you can't make use of them , why do they exist then , and how do other countries make use of their reserves .

hptmurphy
18th October 2018, 16:31
Why bother having a reserve in the first place if you can't make use of them , why do they exist then , and how do other countries make use of their reserves .

They have employment protect around their reservists, where a reservist can deploy for a given amount of time and know they have a job to come back to, they are also paid retainers for various levels of commitment during the training year...where as the DF and the government her don't really give a shit, but that might change in the Naval Service now.

Text messages have been sent out to serving members to gauge the level of interest.


I do not see what the reservist gets out of this other than increased sea time but then again if I was in my early 20s just starting out in the work place with no responsibilities this might just have been the thing I would have tried just to see what it was like.

If the employment protection legislation was in place a lot of guys would probably give it a go just to get away from their norm! If someone said to me right now , would I take a six month contract...I'd jump at it but couldn't afford the pay cut.

The DF have really shot themselves in the foot by not securing the employment protection legislation, only took 15 years to materialize.

trellheim
18th October 2018, 17:13
If employment protection was STILL in place for reservists - it used to exist but was scrapped.

Also there is no income equalization - the bills still need to be paid for the family home which is doable on the civvy street but laughable on the PDF payscale . I suspect this is not specialists they want here but ABs ? Not that they are not somewhat specialized anyway.

DeV
18th October 2018, 17:50
Why bother having a reserve in the first place if you can't make use of them , why do they exist then , and how do other countries make use of their reserves .

Other countries do stuff like pay the same, employment protection, paid for all training, paid mileage, paid gym membership, grat/bounty, better comms, etc etc

They don’t restrict their reserves.... they encourage them

DeV
18th October 2018, 17:50
I suspect this is not specialists they want here but ABs ? Not that they are not somewhat specialized anyway.

I’d say both but RDF can fill very few specialist positions

trellheim
18th October 2018, 18:10
Why bother having a reserve in the first place if you can't make use of them , why do they exist then , and how do other countries make use of their reserves .

Good question ? Who owns the answer ? The Government. That we have a reserve is laid out in the Defence Act 1954 as amended etc etc

Reserves have been quietly used on the Green side whenever the need was there , as reservists, as there is no provision to transfer over and hold the rank under R5, R6 or old A10 ( subject to correction on that ) , and during the 80s our FCA men on long fulltime had the same problem. Application for Mandays and payments of Grats would solve your income equalization on production of payslips

Amending A18 Para 21 would also help reduce the need for transfers

AC182
18th October 2018, 22:02
Its ironic. The NSR were held up as an example of how the reserve could function and integrate with the pdf pre 2012. Since the VFM and SFC the df and government have proactively disassembled everything that made it work and left the nsr on its knees. Now they need nsr to serve on ships to get them to sea and are surprised when there is no one left to go. So now they try to up the anti. They still fail to realise the fundimental problem. That running a volunteer reserve is entirely different to a permanent force. Motivation is not even remotely the same. If the nsr were running as it did in 2005, there would be bodies fighting to get out on ships like before.

na grohmit
18th October 2018, 22:55
Its ironic. The NSR were held up as an example of how the reserve could function and integrate with the pdf pre 2012. Since the VFM and SFC the df and government have proactively disassembled everything that made it work and left the nsr on its knees. Now they need nsr to serve on ships to get them to sea and are surprised when there is no one left to go. So now they try to up the anti. They still fail to realise the fundimental problem. That running a volunteer reserve is entirely different to a permanent force. Motivation is not even remotely the same. If the nsr were running as it did in 2005, there would be bodies fighting to get out on ships like before.

There was a time when the NSR were actively rejecting transfer applicants from people with civvy nautical qualifications because it would upset the status quo.

FLIPPER
19th October 2018, 09:22
There was a time when the NSR were actively rejecting transfer applicants from people with civvy nautical qualifications because it would upset the status quo.

Where did that happen ?

Auldsod
19th October 2018, 10:12
There was a time when the NSR were actively rejecting transfer applicants from people with civvy nautical qualifications because it would upset the status quo.

Hopefully things will turn around. A recruit class due to pass out in December so some new blood coming in. There may also be changes to some recruiting parameters next year which may allow for increased numbers. We need to be optimistic or nothing will change or improve.

trellheim
19th October 2018, 10:39
Right : ( after 33 years ) Are we REALLY going to try everything but what the reserve people have been asking for , seriously ?

I KNOW THE PDFS IN A JOCKER

LET US HELP ITS NOT EXPENSIVE

Auldsod
19th October 2018, 10:42
Right : ( after 33 years ) Are we REALLY going to try everything but what the reserve people have been asking for , seriously ?

I KNOW THE PDFS IN A JOCKER

LET US HELP ITS NOT EXPENSIVE

Any quick solutions that you would think would help?

I've been talking to recruits, it primarily seems to revolve around A: Pay and B: Better organisation and not getting screwed with ever shifting dates for training.

It's the recruits we need to appeal to and not the long service die hards (no offence intended).

trellheim
19th October 2018, 11:50
easiest and quickest is basic payscales. Minister ( the Taoiseach) should have hauled Pascal in and said : 33% payrise for all ranks - get it done. no linking to other services. Instead it was kicked to touch.

As its FG what would you expect from a pig but a grunt where the DF is concerned.

na grohmit
19th October 2018, 13:14
Being honest, I don't think other ranks pay is too bad. It is an entry level wage and you wouldn't get much more in the civi world for joining a company with no qualifications (you'd get less). We often hear about those on family income supplement and the likes at private rank but if you can't afford a family in your twenties, don't have one! I work hard in my civi job to get promoted so I can afford the nicer things and to have a family etc! A private 3* is on 31.5k with MSA after only three years. That's not bad pay for someone in their twenties! If you want to make a career out of the DF, get promoted to NCO rank or get out.

The main issue I have is with NCO pay. This is where a pay-rise is definitely needed. Maybe not as excessive as 33% but something substantial anyway.

Officers will always be lured away by the private sector but the DF is a vocation and even a large increase wouldn't be able to match what the civi sector can potentially offer.

It could at least be comparable with the payment of the entry level civil servant who works in an office mon-fri 37 hours a week. It should definitely be more than the guy working the fryer at McDonalds.

hptmurphy
19th October 2018, 13:23
Being honest, I don't think other ranks pay is too bad. It is an entry level wage and you wouldn't get much more in the civi world for joining a company with no qualifications (you'd get less). We often hear about those on family income supplement and the likes at private rank but if you can't afford a family in your twenties, don't have one!

While we might be in agreement on this , its not how its been seen by those on the inside and those selling the shortfalls. Society is now about instant gratification and keeping up with the jonses with the majority of people wanting what others have without realising that material wealth is acquired over years as opposed to on signing on to a job.

A/Sea Bloggs sees PO Smith driving a new car and reckons he should have the same , but over looks that PO Jones has 21 years service and three ranks ahead of him. This to me is the majority of the issue.

A/Sea Bloggs then reckons that he is worth more and decides to leave , goes to the Daily Rag and tells them how much he is aggrieved that he can't have what PO Jones has and leaves out the rank and service bit!

PO Jones see what ex PO Smith has on the outside without the hardship.. overlooks the fact that he joined the NS when no one else would look at him.. out the gate with his 21 years of experience.... and gets the job he wants and then cribs that some fcuker has cut his pension entitlement.

Jaysus....

Auldsod
19th October 2018, 13:25
It could at least be comparable with the payment of the entry level civil servant who works in an office mon-fri 37 hours a week. It should definitely be more than the guy working the fryer at McDonalds.

A clerical officer with three years service earns 26k. Also the entry level grade. A three star private earns a few grand more after the same service. There seems to be a lot of misinformation doing the rounds about what actual pay is. It's all there available to view on the published pay scales.

Auldsod
19th October 2018, 13:31
While we might be in agreement on this , its not how its been seen by those on the inside and those selling the shortfalls. Society is now about instant gratification and keeping up with the jonses with the majority of people wanting what others have without realising that material wealth is acquired over years as opposed to on signing on to a job.

A/Sea Bloggs sees PO Smith driving a new car and reckons he should have the same , but over looks that PO Jones has 21 years service and three ranks ahead of him. This to me is the majority of the issue.

A/Sea Bloggs then reckons that he is worth more and decides to leave , goes to the Daily Rag and tells them how much he is aggrieved that he can't have what PO Jones has and leaves out the rank and service bit!

PO Jones see what ex PO Smith has on the outside without the hardship.. overlooks the fact that he joined the NS when no one else would look at him.. out the gate with his 21 years of experience.... and gets the job he wants and then cribs that some fcuker has cut his pension entitlement.

Jaysus....

I can't agree more. I've seen A/Seamen driving around the base in near new cars and actually getting paid quite well considering tech pay and sea pay but still giving out about how badly paid they are. I'm quite comfortable in my civi job now but it took a good number of years climbing the greasy pole to get here. Most of my formative years were spent (in a good job that required a degree) with earnings that barely covered my rent, a few pints and keeping a ten year old car on the road. No instant gratification but it was all the more sweet when things eventually turned around regarding pay etc.

I'd often wonder does the grass turn out to be greener for those who leave early with no qualifications before they reach NCO rank?

Note: I have mentioned sea pay and I do appreciate that this requires significant personal sacrifice from the sailor involved. It's hard earned.

trellheim
19th October 2018, 13:35
Examiner article

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/navy-reserve-called-to-fill-posts-amid-crisis-876803.html?fbclid=IwAR0a71RctT3GkosYmB3KDA_2bQBCU WBF1yapzl76odNjXxNYiaUVMHMaPLo




The Naval Service has contacted members of its reserve in an attempt to lure them into full-time service to fill posts left vacant due to a major crisis in retention and recruitment.


File photo.
Reserves have been used in recent months to ensure adequate manpower levels when ships go to sea, but this latest move is seen as another indication that the Government still is not addressing the root cause of the manpower crisis: Poor pay and conditions.

The Defence Forces press office said it currently has 234 reservists who were “recently contacted to ascertain their interest in joining as a permanent member in the future”.

PDForra, which represents enlisted personnel, expressed its surprise at the move.

“This is just another window-dressing exercise,” said PDForra president Mark Keane. “The financial rewards will not match what these people already have in the private sector, so I’d be surprised if they get many expressions of interest.

The Department of Defence needs to bite the bullet and address the real issues of why people are leaving in droves and why they can’t get enough new recruits in.

PDForra general secretary Gerard Guinan said he was also taken aback by the move, as those in the reserve who wanted to join the permanent staff were well aware of how they could do this through the Defence Forces general recruitment schemes.

“They’re just clutching at straws,” he said. “They’d [the department] be better placed to focus on the retention of personnel by offering decent terms of employment.”

Defence Forces members are the worst-paid public servants. Last August, the minister of state with responsibility for defence, Paul Kehoe, ordered senior commanders to try to tempt former officers back into service to counter the continuing brain drain in their ranks.

In particular, he wanted to plug gaps which have appeared in specialist areas in the Army, Naval Service, and Air Corps by offering former officers three-year contracts to rejoin.

It has yet to be seen if the move was successful, and some people doubt that former pilots would ever be tempted to sign up again as they’re paid far better in the private sector.

For example, an Air Corps commandant with 15 years’ experience would expect to earn just over €85,000 a year. However, a pilot with similar experience working for a commercial airline such as Ryanair could expect an annual pay packet of between €150,000 and €200,000 a year.

ancientmariner
19th October 2018, 13:49
It could at least be comparable with the payment of the entry level civil servant who works in an office mon-fri 37 hours a week. It should definitely be more than the guy working the fryer at McDonalds.

The lowly Clerical Officer starts at approx 23,000 Euro P. A., however with long service at that rank, it can spiral to 39,000 Euro P.A. I think in the overall that Seaman ranks would trail by about 2000 Euro P.A. The crucial aspect of any job are the level of conditions and services available. The service man needs to know that the State will see to the Welfare of himself and his family. He needs to be sure that his sea/shore ratio is not a lottery or the fit of his face.When married the State should provide his accommodation either in barracks or by direct provision in local townships. It would be no harm if they followed the systems provided by the next door neighbour for their servicemen. A housed Serviceman is more likely to stay.

Auldsod
19th October 2018, 14:27
The lowly Clerical Officer starts at approx 23,000 Euro P. A., however with long service at that rank, it can spiral to 39,000 Euro P.A. I think in the overall that Seaman ranks would trail by about 2000 Euro P.A. The crucial aspect of any job are the level of conditions and services available. The service man needs to know that the State will see to the Welfare of himself and his family. He needs to be sure that his sea/shore ratio is not a lottery or the fit of his face.When married the State should provide his accommodation either in barracks or by direct provision in local townships. It would be no harm if they followed the systems provided by the next door neighbour for their servicemen. A housed Serviceman is more likely to stay.

See link to 2018 scales.

http://www.military.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/images/careers/rates_of_pay/01_January_2018_Enlisted_Personnel_Pay_Scales.pdf

A seaman on point 7 of the scale will 'spiral' to 36k plus. That's not too far off a clerical officer and is still the lowest functioning grade of the DF. This doesn't include any other allowances or pay. The average Irish salary is actually about 36k so the DF is hitting this bar at the lowest rank (I'm discounting recruits, O/S's and cadets).

This is not badly paid and is pay for someone who in most cases will have the leaving cert as their highest formal qualification. If the A/B upskills, they will most likely receive more pay and rank.

McDonalds staff will earn 20k per year so comparing this to an A/B's pay is at worst making up information and at best, materially skewing the facts.

I'd also be of the mind that a clerical officer on nearly 40k is overpaid.

I do however agree that there are issues regarding housing and assisting with paying rent or a mortgage may help here. There are also major issues with relation to time being spent at sea by many ranks. Too many being asked to do much due to the deluge of manpower and too many sea dodgers not going out at all.

hptmurphy
19th October 2018, 14:41
I'd often wonder does the grass turn out to be greener for those who leave early with no qualifications before they reach NCO rank?

My own case , 30 years on, within three years of leaving I was earning 50 quid a week more than I was as an A/Sea.... but I didn't have the job security that went with the DF.


Note: I have mentioned sea pay and I do appreciate that this requires significant personal sacrifice from the sailor involved. It's hard earned

should have read the small print on the end of the contract....'will be expected to go to sea'... the clue being in Navy!!! Its part of the job, yes it could be run more fairly.. but you join the navy to go to sea......fails me to see people bitching about the basic requirement of the job especially at junior level.

Mate of mine did his recruit training and never saw the base again, spent his entire service on two different ships... some like it.. some don't

Poiuyt
19th October 2018, 16:40
not getting screwed with ever shifting dates for training.

God, I remember the days when training dates were fixed in December/January for the following year. And woe betide anyone who tried to change them. Every weekend up to camp that was of any importance was mapped out, dates were set for ARPs, fitness tests etc.

But the reorg of 2013 happened and the idea of planning anything even 2 months in advance was absolutely alien to the PDF (not taking a dig at the PDF, just a different mentality). We would talk about the need for set dates to PDF who couldn't give any guarantees beyond the next week. Often you would only find out what PDF instructor you were getting when they actually showed up, mainly because they could be pulled for any job that came up and the RDF was way down the priority list.

It is just a different mentality and one of the major failings of the re-org that the mentalities could not mesh - RDF need to know dates well in advance in order to book time off work etc., PDF need to be flexible in order to deal with any situations that arise. RDF get angry about training dates being constantly moved and PDF get angry about the numbers showing up to that training.

The mentalities cannot work with each other. It is not a bad mark on either side, just the way it is.

DeV
19th October 2018, 17:41
Ok, remember when the pay was cut for new entrants ?

You could have a few weeks less service and be earning less approx €10 less a week doing exactly the same job

How can anyone compare being a sailor and being a clerical officer

It is about pay but also conditions:

Having to sleep on ships that are alongside

Leave being cancelled

24 hour duties

Putting to sea in the roughest seas in the world
Your 2 years ashore not being 2 years ashore

Auldsod
19th October 2018, 18:03
Ok, remember when the pay was cut for new entrants ?

You could have a few weeks less service and be earning less approx €10 less a week doing exactly the same job

How can anyone compare being a sailor and being a clerical officer

It is about pay but also conditions:

Having to sleep on ships that are alongside

Leave being cancelled

24 hour duties

Putting to sea in the roughest seas in the world
Your 2 years ashore not being 2 years ashore

Joining the DF is a vocation however. Going by the tale of woe above, should our sailors not be paid 60k a pop? The conditions definitely need to change but I think the pay beyond a marginal increase is right where it should be for an AB.

DeV
19th October 2018, 19:04
Joining the DF is a vocation however. Going by the tale of woe above, should our sailors not be paid 60k a pop? The conditions definitely need to change but I think the pay beyond a marginal increase is right where it should be for an AB.

It is and that is due to some none monetary perks. Be it a hard challenging job, service to the State, fighting drug importation, sports Wednesdays, generous leave....... however it needs to at least at the races with comparable jobs in both public and private sector

DeV
19th October 2018, 19:29
Part of the deal has to be personnel (individually and collectively) are fairly and well treated by junior and senior management and by Government.

Be it in administration, in promotion, selection for overseas, postings, payment in a timely manner, duty rosters, cancelling non essential ops as they cannot be met, ensuring there are adequate personnel, that Accomodiation is to a basic standard, that personnel are sufficiently trained and equipped to ensure that they are not put in harms way unnecessarily.



That those who choose the vocation, the “life less ordinary”, that in some cases make the ultimate sacrifice, are not taken advantage of by the State that they have sworn an oath to be faithful to.


It is a vocation and perks are there but they aren’t guaranteed.

Not many jobs in this land where you book time off work, you book a holiday, you have to ask work can you leave the country, have to give work your address while away and that it can be cancelled at any time (including while you are away)

na grohmit
19th October 2018, 20:35
It is and that is due to some none monetary perks. Be it a hard challenging job, service to the State, fighting drug importation, sports Wednesdays, generous leave....... however it needs to at least at the races with comparable jobs in both public and private sector

The customs maritime unit are also on clerical officer pay and do the job of fighting drugs importation. They also get paid an annual allowance for this duty.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwi7v-K3nZPeAhUrIsAKHaXaAckQFjAAegQICRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.per.gov.ie%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FRevenue-Business-Cases.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1WIwiLDwK7G44vAk2mRrCV

hptmurphy
19th October 2018, 21:52
Having to sleep on ships that are alongside

Absolute bollocks...its always been done. the conditions on ships are/were better than the base. The bitch being that the DF moved away from SLI and guys got used to living out. Just because they can't afford to live out, the whinge about the accomadation thats is provided. Its a reality for a lot of people on lower wages that accomadation is not priced as they wish. If you live out in Haulbowline and are not resident in Cobh.. you need a car...more money.....if they add up all they want to be paid for maybe they should reconsider their career path.



24 hour duties

because of the three watch system on ships.. thats the way it is and again always has been


How can anyone compare being a sailor and being a clerical officer


People make choices, public service pay rates were tainted by benchmarking hence the need for allowances..PDA is an allowance a junior public servant serving in the DF gets for days spent at sea!

DeV
19th October 2018, 22:09
The customs maritime unit are also on clerical officer pay and do the job of fighting drugs importation. They also get paid an annual allowance for this duty.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwi7v-K3nZPeAhUrIsAKHaXaAckQFjAAegQICRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.per.gov.ie%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FRevenue-Business-Cases.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1WIwiLDwK7G44vAk2mRrCV

Doesn’t say what the rate is, it is also an annual allowance

I note that “one operation required the staff to remain at sea for a continuous period of nineteen days”


I don’t begrudge them it but it’s apples and oranges.



Compare to PDA
https://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Patrol-Duty-Allowance.pdf


PDA could be much higher than the Revenue Allowance but the job and T&C’s are extremely different



How do both compare to the private sector