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DeV
1st March 2004, 21:06
Do ASM / NSR receive all the allowances they are entitled to?

Eg Patrol Duty Allowance, Security Duty Allowance, Tech Pay, Sea going allowance

I'm especially interested to hear if they get SDA, on/off camp?, whether or not replacing PDF personnel!

Vice Admiral
1st March 2004, 22:37
PDA is always paid, although the timing can be erratic.
SDA is only paid when performing a duty in place of a member of the PDF.
The NSR do not go on camp, the vast majority of courses are done in haulbowline and the normal guard and stand to are in place.
SDA is not paid while under training.
Tech pay is not something we have (to my knowledge) pursued.
Sea going allowance is PDA.

DeV
2nd March 2004, 14:40
Thanks Vice Admiral

Auldsod
5th April 2018, 12:07
Reading up on the NSR here as I'm hoping to join but I'm a bit confused about how the allowances work.

Are PDA and SDA allowance taxable?

Does an NSR member just get the security allowance for working a weekend in Haulbowline or do they also get their weekly pay pro-rated to two days?

DeV
5th April 2018, 13:29
Reading up on the NSR here as I'm hoping to join but I'm a bit confused about how the allowances work.

Are PDA and SDA allowance taxable?

Does an NSR member just get the security allowance for working a weekend in Haulbowline or do they also get their weekly pay pro-rated to two days?

I’d imagine it is taxable

Can’t speak for NSR but if I do a security duty (I get 2 days pay (no duty allowance)) with Army reserve

hptmurphy
5th April 2018, 21:19
Reading up on the NSR here as I'm hoping to join but I'm a bit confused about how the allowances work.

Are PDA and SDA allowance taxable?

Does an NSR member just get the security allowance for working a weekend in Haulbowline or do they also get their weekly pay pro-rated to two days?

Nope!... this has been the age old argument for the DF doing things on the cheap, bring in the reservist to do the duty and pay him a flat days rate saving the unit the cost of duty money, the logic being mandays used in support of units are seen as training days rather than actual duties.

they don't qualify for PDA ( Sea going money) for time afloat as PDA can only be paid to persons post to a ship rather than those attached.

Fantasia
5th April 2018, 21:52
When the RDF reorg happened, we were still in the doldrums in terms of pay for members (as opposed to now where we are raking it it haha). At the time one of RDFRAs shooting themselves in the foot moments was to say cut & burn the PDF and instead have thousands more reservists. One of the means of placating the representative associations (PDF) was to issue a directive that a reservist would not be used for a duty that would cost a PDF man an allowance that would otherwise be due. Hence RDF still do not get paid SDA even when on duty beside a PDF

DeV
5th April 2018, 23:40
When the RDF reorg happened, we were still in the doldrums in terms of pay for members (as opposed to now where we are raking it it haha). At the time one of RDFRAs shooting themselves in the foot moments was to say cut & burn the PDF and instead have thousands more reservists. One of the means of placating the representative associations (PDF) was to issue a directive that a reservist would not be used for a duty that would cost a PDF man an allowance that would otherwise be due. Hence RDF still do not get paid SDA even when on duty beside a PDF

Plus of course it means money is saved from the PDF allowances subhead and it comes from the RDF pay subhead instead. It isn’t huge money by any stretch, but it also means the mandays actually get used (1 formation last year actually used all their mandays last year and were given more.

Financially the reservist is probably better off getting 2 mandays instead of 1 with SDA (gross anyway)

Fantasia
6th April 2018, 07:17
Plus of course it means money is saved from the PDF allowances subhead

No, they are not allowed to try and save money by using RDF instead. There is a DCOS LOI on it

DeV
6th April 2018, 08:02
No, they are not allowed to try and save money by using RDF instead. There is a DCOS LOI on it

So who is getting the SDA in that case?

It may not be the intend but it surely must be the effect?

We aren’t talking huge numbers of people so the saving wouldn’t even be €10,000 across the whole DF

Bravo20
6th April 2018, 09:28
When the RDF reorg happened, we were still in the doldrums in terms of pay for members (as opposed to now where we are raking it it haha). At the time one of RDFRAs shooting themselves in the foot moments was to say cut & burn the PDF and instead have thousands more reservists. One of the means of placating the representative associations (PDF) was to issue a directive that a reservist would not be used for a duty that would cost a PDF man an allowance that would otherwise be due. Hence RDF still do not get paid SDA even when on duty beside a PDF

That is not correct. The directive regarding the payment of SDA was issued long before the re-org. In fact it was never paid, there was a ban on the use of RDF for a security duties for a period as a result of the case taken and individual, supported by RDFRA in the early noughties to the WRC (or whatever its equivalent was at the time).

DeV
6th April 2018, 09:58
Up to until maybe 2000 or so there was a security duty Manday allotment wasn’t ? That has been zero since and Training manday allocations are used.

There was a proposal from an individual (not a RDFRA policy)

Auldsod
6th April 2018, 10:15
The reason I asked is because the information on the NSR page on military.ie states that "The NSR also carry out land based security duties at the Naval Base on Haulbowline Island, Cork. These duties are carried out at weekends and the reservists who carry them out are paid the standard Permanent Defence Force allowances for these duties".

The site also mentions "Patrols are typically 2 or 3 weeks in duration. You will be paid for this training and also receive a sea going allowance". Seems to be a contradicting the actual practice then so!

Fantasia
6th April 2018, 10:20
That is not correct. The directive regarding the payment of SDA was issued long before the re-org. In fact it was never paid, there was a ban on the use of RDF for a security duties for a period as a result of the case taken and individual, supported by RDFRA in the early noughties to the WRC (or whatever its equivalent was at the time).

It was reiterated in 2013. I have the letter

Bravo20
6th April 2018, 12:35
Reiterated but not a direct correlation.

trellheim
6th April 2018, 13:12
Allowances for Reservists , and many other things, should have been dealt with by a revision of R5/R6/S7/A18 (Regulations) and R5 Admin Instrs since the 2012 Re-organisation * and,indeed, to deal with massive gaps in the 2005 re-org as well. A couple of amendments to the 1954 act would not hurt either.

This should have reflected the current status of the Reserve and its relationship to the Permanent Force .

It is nothing less than awful that 6 years later nothing has been done about this

DeV
6th April 2018, 14:15
The reason I asked is because the information on the NSR page on military.ie states that "The NSR also carry out land based security duties at the Naval Base on Haulbowline Island, Cork. These duties are carried out at weekends and the reservists who carry them out are paid the standard Permanent Defence Force allowances for these duties".

The site also mentions "Patrols are typically 2 or 3 weeks in duration. You will be paid for this training and also receive a sea going allowance". Seems to be a contradicting the actual practice then so!

It your on full time training and it is authorised you are paid. It could be a single day or over 3 weeks depending on what your doing (everyone is more or less guaranteed they will get at least 7 days fulltime Training annually (if they are available))

hptmurphy
6th April 2018, 21:23
The reason I asked is because the information on the NSR page on military.ie states that "The NSR also carry out land based security duties at the Naval Base on Haulbowline Island, Cork. These duties are carried out at weekends and the reservists who carry them out are paid the standard Permanent Defence Force allowances for these duties".

The site also mentions "Patrols are typically 2 or 3 weeks in duration. You will be paid for this training and also receive a sea going allowance". Seems to be a contradicting the actual practice then so!

But you can't receive sea going allowance as you are not posted to the ship, you are on attachment and the NS has never paid PDA to those who are on attachment. To be posted you must be filling a recognised vacancy and be replacing a crew member who has been permanently been detached. Given the NSR members originating unit is his NSR unit and not the ship.. he can't be paid PDA.

The other issue being that the time aboard ship is only creditable for PDA if the the ship is on a recognised patrol of fixed duration...ie time beyond Roches point and back, not sitting alongside . Back in my day Security allowances were not payable while on patrol, as in duties alongside sentries or QM, as you were actually 'at sea' and being paid PDA.

Patrols are no longer two or three weekers!


So who is getting the SDA in that case?

No one.... if its not applied for its not paid, it remains in the budget, the unspent portion is returned to central funding at end of year.


In fact it was never paid, there was a ban on the use of RDF for a security duties

There was a period in Clonmel where man power was so tight the Res Cav squadron were doing all the mid week duties with and the 12Bn guys doing the weekends. We used to get a weeks camp , doing three guards in the week. Everyone was happy until someone outside the loop insisted on Sgt Guard Commanders instead of Cpls and the pool dried up. Got the Bn through a bind..and we all made a few quid. We gladly left the Bn guys do the weekends.

Fantasia
6th April 2018, 21:42
There was a period in Clonmel where man power was so tight the Res Cav squadron were doing all the mid week duties with and the 12Bn guys doing the weekends. We used to get a weeks camp , doing three guards in the week. Everyone was happy until someone outside the loop insisted on Sgt Guard Commanders instead of Cpls and the pool dried up. Got the Bn through a bind..and we all made a few quid. We gladly left the Bn guys do the weekends.

27 Bn used to do it the other way around. One of the local FCA Lts was unemployed or on very reduced hours. He used to do a lot of the weekends

hptmurphy
7th April 2018, 00:05
Early 90s I was doing a couple per week in Fermoy ! getting paid on a daily basis how ever they managed that. I was on short time from my regular job 2 days per week, two Guards in Fermoy, I was making more than working full time.

Saw me through the winter of 92/93.. eager trooper I was

na grohmití
7th April 2018, 00:52
I did similar in Limerick during the lean years of 2002, when I was between jobs. Two duties a week allowed the PDF to get involved in large scale exercises that the DF had up to that point not been able to achieve, moving a brigade as one to the ex area, tactically.
Two on, two off, and a day as a sub. Kept the wolf from the door until I got a job.

Fantasia
7th April 2018, 08:48
I did similar in Limerick during the lean years of 2002, when I was between jobs. Two duties a week allowed the PDF to get involved in large scale exercises that the DF had up to that point not been able to achieve, moving a brigade as one to the ex area, tactically.
Two on, two off, and a day as a sub. Kept the wolf from the door until I got a job.

Cork did the same in 2001.

Cathal Brugha did the same in 2004.

I think it should be done again now. DF is so understrength that lads are doing nothing but duties. Exercises only happen during an MRE at this stage

na grohmití
7th April 2018, 10:49
The difference is, in this time of relative economic strength, is there anough members of the reserve with the spare time fo give the commitment? That is before we go down the road of mandays etc.

DeV
7th April 2018, 10:58
My location has a set (not unambitous) target for Duties completed by RDF by quarter and year since Q3 2017

hptmurphy
7th April 2018, 21:17
Cork did the same in 2001.

Cathal Brugha did the same in 2004.

I think it should be done again now. DF is so understrength that lads are doing nothing but duties. Exercises only happen during an MRE at this stage

Yeah...sorry I'd like to give you a dig out again......but I'm no longer serving:-D

ancientmariner
8th April 2018, 09:42
Yeah...sorry I'd like to give you a dig out again......but I'm no longer serving:-D

Serving is the thing. All personnel in uniform, and at a particular rank, should slot in, and be capable of doing the job at the same rates and allowances of the rank. Treating reserves as dogsbody's on exclusive lower rates is an embarrassment and a perpetuation of the FEMPI conditions long since passed.
The big difficulty is the NSR and it's history. We failed to train or use them as sailors. They could be fully marinised in a 8 week course hitting all the key essentials to be done, particularily at sea . We lack a certain amount of vision not realising that personnel in sailors uniforms should be capable of going to sea. NSR officers could act as bridge watch keepers after 1 week GMDSS course, 1 week rule of the road, 1 week chartwork, and 2 weeks basic stitching it together on board a training desig. ship. In 1992 I recommended that they(SM) be used or disbanded.

na grohmití
8th April 2018, 11:11
Serving is the thing. All personnel in uniform, and at a particular rank, should slot in, and be capable of doing the job at the same rates and allowances of the rank. Treating reserves as dogsbody's on exclusive lower rates is an embarrassment and a perpetuation of the FEMPI conditions long since passed.
The big difficulty is the NSR and it's history. We failed to train or use them as sailors. They could be fully marinised in a 8 week course hitting all the key essentials to be done, particularily at sea . We lack a certain amount of vision not realising that personnel in sailors uniforms should be capable of going to sea. NSR officers could act as bridge watch keepers after 1 week GMDSS course, 1 week rule of the road, 1 week chartwork, and 2 weeks basic stitching it together on board a training desig. ship. In 1992 I recommended that they(SM) be used or disbanded.

This is now the case I believe. WHile the NSR cannot fill appointments at sea, they can slot in to do most of the job required.

Auldsod
18th April 2018, 10:57
I'm assuming doing security duties down at the Naval Base would only really be a goer for the Cork and Waterford units anyway.

It's quite a trek from Dublin and Limerick and you'd see any pay benefit eaten up by fuel and tolls!

na grohmití
18th April 2018, 18:05
I'm assuming doing security duties down at the Naval Base would only really be a goer for the Cork and Waterford units anyway.

It's quite a trek from Dublin and Limerick and you'd see any pay benefit eaten up by fuel and tolls!

Almost the same distance from Haulbowline to Limerick as it is from Haulbowline to Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatrfurt.
(135km to Blaa, excellent roads, 125km to the Treaty, OK roads)

Auldsod
18th April 2018, 20:58
I'm never down in Waterford. I always assume it's a lot closer to Cork than it actually is and I guess Haulbowline requires the long drive around! Still though - relatively long drive to both places!

Orion
18th April 2018, 21:34
I'm told by one who does the journey regularly that its at least 2 hours from Waterford to Cork.

na grohmití
19th April 2018, 05:46
I'm told by one who does the journey regularly that its at least 2 hours from Waterford to Cork.

Via the coast road maybe...

hptmurphy
19th April 2018, 13:15
Via the coast road maybe...

And hour to Killeagh......anything after that is a good guess.


I'm told by one who does the journey regularly that its at least 2 hours from Waterford to Cork

24hr Guard and then drive home..... big no no... we were stopped doing that in Fermoy years ago when we used to come from Clonmel. Transport had to be provided.

hptmurphy
19th April 2018, 13:16
And hour to Killeagh......anything after that is a good guess.



24hr Guard and then drive home..... big no no... we were stopped doing that in Fermoy years ago when we used to come from Clonmel. Transport had to be provided.

Does the AD still have a detachment on Haulbowline and if so can they not do guards etc?

DeV
19th April 2018, 13:44
Does the AD still have a detachment on Haulbowline and if so can they not do guards etc?

The ADR ceased to exist in 2013.

RDF involvement in AD Btys ceased (as far as I know) at the same time