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Infy
17th February 2003, 16:57
how many years service do you have to do before you can do a pots course? Ive heard of guys going form 2* straight up. Just wondering......

FMolloy
17th February 2003, 17:10
You have to be a 'fully trained' soldier to do a course, i.e. a 3 star. All 3 star's are eligble to apply for a course, regardless of the length of time they've served.

FMolloy
17th February 2003, 18:16
I've never come accross that stipulation.

FMolloy
17th February 2003, 18:20
If it's in the regs I've never seen it adhered to.

maverick
17th February 2003, 18:50
on my pots course there was a young chap going by the handle of "babysham", as anyone on that course will tell you his service period fell well short of three years. Looks like the only person reading those regs would be you then kermit.

Bravo20
17th February 2003, 19:39
The length of service requirement changes from course to course. Kermit I suggest you read R5 as it does not refer to entry requirements for courses in such detail. When I did my PNCOs course the requirement was 2 years as a line 3 star or a tech 2 star (I never did understand the lessor requirement for the Tech private). At that time it was strictly adhered to as there were plenty of 3 stars. You would actually have 3 stars refusing to go on courses. The gap between NCOs and Ptes then was as big as the Grand Canyon.


God I feel old

Bailer
17th February 2003, 20:06
<font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">Well The way it is in my unit is you wont get an interview for the Course unless you've extended your service i.e. Completed 3 years and Signed on for another 3</font>

old rec
17th February 2003, 21:59
Not too sure what the regs are. When I did my pots cse in 96 there were some people from units who had never seen the Bren gun before. This amazed me, I thought you couldnt be promoted to 3* until the bren was fired.

In my new unit there are some corporals who were recruits in 2001, hope I can get promoted that fast!!!

Khumbu
18th February 2003, 10:41
I know a guy who never even did a recruit camp and he got on a pots course. He joined his unit in september (as a recruit) and the following summer he did his pots course,then the following summer he did his "standards" course. He left the RDF, a couple of months later, he is now a PDF cadet!!!!

PS: His daddy was CO of this unit in question. mmmmmm

Infy
18th February 2003, 12:05
sound guys cheers for that just wanted that clarified

rebel Reservist
18th February 2003, 12:43
A quote for the syllabus of training for the pots course:

a. Have a minimum of two calendar years effective FCA service as a 3* Line or 2* Tech.
b. Have fired and qualified within the previous 12 months in the FN Rifle (Table 23), Bren LMG (Table 28) and Gustaf SMG (Table 22)
c. Be proficient in Arms Drill, COFD and Individual Fieldcraft


obviously a bit dated and usually not adhered to.

Earhart
18th February 2003, 13:57
I think it's the same young baby sham that we're all refering too. This isn't the first time he has been refered to on the board. It's amazing that with his genitic makeup and skill that within 2 years of being sworn in he had 3 stripes on his arm! Wow, isn't that just fantastic....... Now he'll have a black beret and pips! What are we doing wrong?

maverick
18th February 2003, 16:47
makes one wonder about the whole nepotism issue in the DF really. I'm sure that having three stripes after two years greatly increased his chances at the cadetship interviews. People like that really do make me sick. If anyone knows this person, could they politely ask him to clear up any details on the board...

FMolloy
18th February 2003, 17:09
Nepotism is rife!!!!

On my pots course there was one female who was married to one of the officers in the unit running things. She was molly-coddled by the DS when she cried, while all other females were told to buck up. She was dragged all the way through the pots by the instructors because of who her husband was.

The next year she was on the standards, again her parent unit was running things and again I witnessed the instructors unfairly help her. I was in the Glen on duties and saw her get additional instruction and encouragement not given to others, despite the fact she was unable to do the job (while she was billet orderly she complained to me that one of my females had not kept her bed space clean, when I asked her if she had said this to the private she replied "it's not my place") Low and behold she passes & gets her third stripe.

The year after that she was on the tactics course. The pre-lims for that course were rigorous, with a number of pass-or-fail fitness tests. One of the tests was a timed march. While on the march the course was accompanied by a Transit to pick up those who dropped off. The students were told that whoever got on the Transit was to be immediately RTU'd, guess who was among the first on the Transit? And guess who among those on the Transit was allowed back on the course? This pattern was repeated throughout the remainder of the course.

It makes me sick.

Big Al
18th February 2003, 17:10
three stripes after two years devalues the whole promotion system. this sort of situation devalues the fca as well, its no wonder that some of the pdf have a bad view of us. the officers are worse to let this happen

FMolloy
18th February 2003, 17:32
Perhaps there's a need for a regulation stipulating that relatives of officers or senior NCO's are prohibited from joining the same unit as them except under certain circumstances (e.g. it's the only unit around).

maverick
18th February 2003, 17:38
As much as I don't like to see this happening, I feel that restricting the joining of a unit would be a tad unreasonable. As is the case in many units around the country, there is a strong family tradition present, in my own unit, the father of the current C/O was the C/O donkeys years ago. I reckon it's up to the NCOs to make their feelings heard to the B/S or higher, after all it's the NCOs that are going to be the ones compensating for incompetent colleagues when it comes down to training.

FMolloy
18th February 2003, 17:47
I agree with you Maverick, there is strong family connections in certain units and that's a good thing. But it seems most of the members I've talked to have stories of a similar nature, my own battalion is no exception. A friend of mine was in the cav for a while. He was due to sit his driving test when he was bumped so the CO's son could do his.

Is nepotism as endemic as I think it is? If it is then something official has to be done.

Infy
18th February 2003, 18:00
i know of a fella down the country who left the rdf joined another branch of the df got medically discharged and because daddy was high up he got back into the rdf and held the same rank. whats that about, i mean the regs for enlistment state that you cannot join if you have been previously discharged on medical reasons.
If the regs arent being adhered to whats the point in having them. if thats the case we could all wake up CO's in the morning just cos someone else was looking out for you.

Big Al
18th February 2003, 18:10
There is a lot of truth in
"its not what you know its who you know"

why should the army be any different?

though i do think that a Sgt after 2 years should stand out a mile, and is a little too obvious.

Neptune
18th February 2003, 18:39
Ever heard of reverse nepotism, my relation left the unit and only then zoomed from A/B to PO (3 star to Sergeant).

With regard to promoting pubescent corporals, have a care when it comes to integrating with the PDF. In the NS the youngest LS would be 25 or 26, don't know about the army, but do you really think they will take a 19 yr old with two stripes seriously?:confused:

EagleEye
18th February 2003, 18:47
Well i did my Pot's course with the individual in question and i can tell you that he stood out a mile, but again nobody was able to say anything to this guy because of who his dad was. It was a joke some of us had up to 6 years pervious experience before this course and then you had the likes of this guy coming straight in, "the back door" you could say ! And again i know people from my unit that did their standards course with him and it was the same story. How could you really have respect for somebody like this. Was he just being groomed for the Cadets ??

Big Al
18th February 2003, 19:01
I would assume that he was been groomed for the cadets but surely the interviewers must have seen something odd when a sgt with 3 years of experience turned up?

sparks
18th February 2003, 19:53
"though i do think that a Sgt after 2 years should stand out a mile, and is a little too obvious."

I Know an individual who zoomed up the ranks, Rec, 2*, 3*, Cpl, acting Sgt(no course)and finally 2/LT. Not bad in 5 years and nothing to do with the fact she was engaged to the cadre QM son.

Infy
18th February 2003, 21:36
wouldnt think so nepotism whats that!

maverick
18th February 2003, 22:16
I wouldn't see that as being groomed for the cadets myself, if anything, he would just see the NCO ranks as absolute crap and have no respect for them. It should be a unified team effort.

Looks to me like token segreants and corporals are the norm in a lot of units nowadays anyway. In my unit alone there are a number of people of both genders that hold rank which they are totally unqualified for, god only knows how they passed their pNCO courses.

EagleEye, one of the pots that did our course has recovered fully from his course injury and is currently teaching recruits the right turn at the halt "taraigh airm de reir uimhreacha, tairigh airm haon...", "on recieving the command I imediately forced my body through an angle of 90 degrees to the right..." oh the joy of it all.

Whoever started this post in the first place, you shouldn't be worried about your pots course, on courses like that you will always have individuals that excel and others that do not, thing is at the end of the day both types end up being the same rank. It's true.

Khumbu
19th February 2003, 10:49
I am just wondering, Has anybody out there ever heard of anybody failing a POT's course? i certainly haven't....mmmmmmm .......... that says alot...... or maybe we are just soooo brilliant and of a great standard.......mmmmm ....Whats that you say?....... but what about fat-lard-ass Seargent bloggs, the 3 armed, two headed goat who has the IQ of a goldfish, answer= daddy has friends!!!!!!

Oh ya , i noticed earlier that someone suggested that you had to apply to do a POT's course. Is this true? i never heard of that one, i thought you had to be nominated . If thats the case, i could have been an NCO a lot sooner than this. I was offered a place,(after 6 years of service) and didnt even know you could apply (thats if you can)
.

I agree with Maverick on the whole "token" seargents and corporals, i have seen certain individuals get promotion for absolutely no apparent reason (ie it wasnt based on there own merits). they were just given stripes coz they were in the unit so long, or they were short a couple of females, or daddy had friends in high places.
But i dont begrude them, the only thing i dont really like, is that i have the embarrssment of wearing the same rank markings as them. Its kinda de-grading...... LOL............... seriously

Earhart
19th February 2003, 11:45
As far as I am aware the regulations still say that a person is to be promoted on years of service as opposed to merit! The good NCO's will always shine anyways!

In regards to that young student on the Standards course: he gave grief one day because a female MP stopped us leaving barracks. He didn't think that she had the right to prevent us from going to the shop without a pass!!!! It got better and better.


Maverick: Everyone makes mistakes and that corporal has been under my strict supervision for the last while and has not instructed recruits to turn using the command 'tarraigh airm do reir uimhreacha' yet.

Loque
19th February 2003, 12:35
The real problem with these token NCO's is that the good NCO's often fell they have to cover for these morons, this only makes their incompetence less apparent to Officers and other NCO's. Inexperienced NCO's should be helped but spoon-fed so that they eventually "cop-on" to themselves.
An NCO should prove him/herself as a an asset to their unit, they form it's backbone.
There should be 2-3 year time of satisfactory service before a PTE be sent on a PNCO course, after all these days a recruit can go from 2* to 3* in one year.
There should also be 3-4 year time of satisfactory service before a CPL should be promoted to SGT, this is long enough to weed out the wasters who are hanging around for "Service Stripes" from the dedicted CPL's.

Infy
19th February 2003, 18:15
heard of one nearly failing a training nco said he had the forms wrote up to fail her but after genlte/loads of persuasion he had to let her stay

EagleEye
19th February 2003, 18:41
Yes there needs to be more control of you is entitled to go on a course. How about an independent Brigade level panel of PDF/RDF Clp's and Sgt's. Unit's would submit the names of PNCO's who would have to attend an interview and fitness test. This would be a pass/fail test 3 months prior to the course. A min. of 3 yrs service would be required before you could apply for the course.

Should get a better physically and mentally groups of individual attending the course, and in the process weed out the chancers and wasters.

Then on the course their would be the potential of failing the course, if certain levels were not achieved.

With these simple procedures in place, you would have better courses, not spending half a course teaching somebody how to fire the GPMG or Bren when this should be already know.

If their was a typical 20% fail rate on a course, you sure would work your arse off on the course to make sure it wasn't going to be you.

What do ye think

Big Al
19th February 2003, 18:55
I agree up to the point of a typical fail rate, you shouldnt fail a course just becuase they need to make up a statistic. There should be a clear marking scheme and you have to reach X number of points to pass. In that way half a class could fail or a whole class could pass.

Docman
19th February 2003, 19:58
On a course I attended once, a poorly performing pot was forcibly RTUed because of a sore ankle. Next day a pot badly injured a wrist and the question of RTU was not discussed. There are other ways of getting rid of people than failing them.

Bailer
19th February 2003, 20:29
<font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">I was on the E Bde Pots course in 2000 and out of the 60 or so Pte's that arrived in the Glen 15 were RTU'd in the 2 weeks and only 24 passed out so eh thats 21 failures from the course. It does happen you just dont hear about it.

</font>

EagleEye
19th February 2003, 20:37
I glad to hear that it happens, but it seems to be the exception rather than the norm. I wasn't suggesting that the fail rate be a certain percentage, just take there should be a min. standard set out the Pot's must attain to pass out.

Loque
20th February 2003, 09:52
I've heard of one POT being sent off a course on some half-baked excuse about being "sick", however the course run the previous year had a POT finishing the course on crutches!

No matter how good a selection process is, it ultimately comes down to the personnel running the course.
I think that there should be some external body set up to scrutinise courses as they are being run, this would ensure less favouritism and a fairer chance of making the grade.

Western Commando
2nd March 2003, 18:43
Nepotism in my unit is turning the place into a shambles. One of the places on last years PNCO Cse was given to the PDF CQs daughter. I was under the impression that she was only a recruit but when I enquired I was told she had done her 2* Cse on Easter Camp that year. On that camp I was responsible for training the 2*s, as it was a recruit camp and only about 10 places were given to 2*s. The only contact I had with that Pte was when I was Fire Picket Comdr and she was missing at 0830 when we formed up. She arrived at 0920 in the Coy Transit, with her daddy, who obliviously didn’t see the need to have either her or himself into work on time. She did no training of any type over the week, didn’t come in at all on one day and still qualified as a 3*, and went on to do the PNCO Cse, and luckily for her, daddy played a large part in running it.

The year I did my own Cse our unit ran Pre-Cse Trg over a few weekends before the Cse. About 6 from the Bn attended, and we were told not to report for the PNCO Cse if we hadn’t attended the Pre-Trg. I did my Cse outside the Bde, but when I spoke to my mates who had attended the Bde Cse they told me that the daughter of the PDF CQ of another Coy had attended despite not going to any of the weekends, and not only that had been allowed to rejoin the Cse after TWICE been caught in male accommodation! (Once allegedly in the showers but that could be local colour!)

Finally, this years PNCO Cse has the honour of our Storeman/Dvrs son attending. He cannot march, never mind anything complicated, and has still passed out some very deserving 3*s to get on the Cse. Result: We’ve lost one very good Pte already and I foresee more on the way if this pattern continues.

Forgive me if I seem cynical about family connections in the FCA. In reality its down to a very weak Coy CO but it’s still making life difficult for everyone else.

EagleEye
2nd March 2003, 19:11
Don't worry Western Commando you are not alone in your stories, i have seen the same happen in my own unit. Make my sick, when you see people being sent on courses that don't deserve to be there and better individuals getting past over. That's why i said in my previous post that's there need to be an entry procedure of a Brigade level board interview to weed out the insane and the time wasters. And this interview would only happen after a strict pass/fail fitness test for all male and female.

How can we be taken serious or even consider having anything to do with intergration or even combat training/excerises if we do not improve the fitness levels and standard of people being selected for NCO courses and higher.

iron arse
8th March 2003, 13:17
I did my POTs coures last summer in trlee.

Out of the 40 on the course:

2 went on LD for the two weeks (very frustrating to see happen)
3 finnished on cruches after spending the entire two weeks hopping around.
2 were in slings, 1 for grabbing the barrel of a very hot rifle after being told not to.

Not one person was RTU, when it was obvious that several should have. All of the above finished with the same cert as me. This really took from the course, turned it into a holiday where you could allow anything to happen to yourself and not have to worry about getting sent home.

Bailer
8th March 2003, 18:43
<font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">Yes The Crutches Story is true!! I know because it was me!! I broke a Metatarsel in my Left foot doing section in attack with 4 days to go on the Course. I missed one day (Getting xrayed and Plastered in Bricins) and was back sitting in on the lessons but not taking part. The Course Commander decided that My Scores in the tests were good enough and I would be allowed finish the course with the rest of my Platoon and Pass the course I did!

A lot of other people who weren't up to Standard and LD'd etc were Either RTU'd or Simply didnt pass after sitting out most of the course.</font>

Truck Driver
18th March 2003, 10:43
Aye lads and ladies,

The year I did my Pots Cse, something like 3 people didn' t survive the Pre-Course medical - one of the individuals was in the back of the truck en route with me, and he looked none too healthy on a hot, late June day.

Strangers in a dark blue car arrived and carted off another fella - never found out why.

And I believe, although it was never confirmed, that a lad was binned on the 2nd last day of the course. Allegedly, he was overheard by a Cadre member of the course saying how he was "going to run the a*** out of his first batch of recruits". He was binned for his attitude on his impending new powers...

Infy
23rd March 2003, 18:41
well it looks like i wont have to worry about da pots course for another year, my unit in its wiseness decided to send 3 from our coy on the course, one soon and one in august i think, i can't do the upcoming one because of college exams in may, but my 2 comrades can. i have no problem with that, they are ready and can get the time off work. The problem i have is the fact that in its wiseness my unit won't let me go on my own on the course, for fear of me being singled out. Anybody got any advice for me do i take it on the chin and wait a year or who could i complain to?

Bravo20
24th March 2003, 10:40
Load of Bollix....Do they think you need someone to hold your hand or something? What course do they think they are sending you on?

EagleEye
24th March 2003, 10:45
The hole idea of the Pot's course is to give you the training to teach and lead and to become confident in your own skills so that you can pass it on to recruits. Not letting you go on your own. Whats wrong with you.

Infy
24th March 2003, 11:54
i dont know what da f##k is goin on i think im big enough to survive a course for a fortnight! il see what i can come up with i aint taking this lying down no way! Ive just become very dissilusioned with the whole thing, ive been training for months, i am ready to do it, willing to do it, and then to be turned around to and told to wait a year!