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Come-quickly
6th May 2004, 10:49
Just out of curiosity, in the context of rumours/wishes of the NS operating a troopship; would that scenario create a need or scope for the current NS diver training to be expanded to something approaching that of a Combat swimmer branch.
i.e. Would there be room beyond the already extensive training requirements of NS divers to provide for beach recconaissance, obstacle demolition and sabotage of defences.

Once again putting this purely in an expeditionary peace support context, would this role expansion:
(a) Provide a NS troopship and or Recce/Security PV with a valuable always on asset by means of increasing the available number of combat divers (The ARW already have a Combat swimmer capability).
In this regard the nature of the work should be clarified, rather than a duplicate of the ARW's recce and raiding roles, a Naval Diver team would for the most part simply be increasing the NS's ability to carry out NS tasks overseas securely.
This would be achieved by:
1. Locating obstacles such as wreckage, mines or manmade defences before an NS vessel moves into an unsecured harbour or port, such as may be found on peace support operations in locations where the state has collapsed.
2. Providing armed security in said locations during the final approach of NS vessels or during a hasty departure such as in an evacuation of civilian or military personnel who cannot avail of other exit routes.
3.Providing onshore recconaissance either covertly or overtly (i.e. directing landings of personnel and materials).
4. Assisting Army recconaisance and SOF personnel in infiltrating inshore, by means of security and intelligence.
5. Providing onshore EOD capability for the securing of contested harbours etc.

(b) Enhance the Expeditionary capabilities of the NS PVs by providing the aforementioned services for premission recconaissance and security.
1. Providing an independent NS EOD clearance role (AFAIK underwater EOD is part of exisitng diver training but I'm unaware if they are trained to do so in unsecured environments.
2. Ensuring that ports and harbours nominally secured by international forces are genuinely so.
3. Providing security for onshore and inshore pre-mission recconaisance in the even that ARW or other security personnel are not available.


Basically what I'm suggesting is 20 or so Naval divers being given additional recce and EOD training and ten being deployed with any NS vessel that goes on operations outside Irish territorial waters.
This might seem modest to some, but given the size of the NS and the limited number of Divers altogether, added to the fact that the German Navy despite being larger than the total DF only has a similar number of combat swimmers will hopefully allow you to realise how ambitious a suggestion this actually is.
Nonetheless I'm making it on the basis that if it were to be put succesfully into operation it would (a) increase the security and capability of NS and DF missions overeseas and (b) Extend the potential for involvement in these operations of the NS far more than a similar investment in ship based weapon systems (asuming any new PVs will be armed:mad: ).

jpb
6th May 2004, 11:26
don't usually post here but here go's,

wonder what the navy diver's actually do ;) , and is the diver's course just a glorified sport's diver's course such as PADI or CFT :p .

right stand back and wait for the abuse :D :D :D ,

keep safe.

Come-quickly
6th May 2004, 11:30
Actually JPB I believe the reason they created a seperate Divers badge for the ARW was that their course covered less material, i.e. underwater welding

T.I.M.
6th May 2004, 12:03
Combat swimmers???
is that like slang for extra potent sperm or something?

jpb
6th May 2004, 12:18
so cq,

what you are trying to say is that the navel service diver's course is a fairly complex course as it is, so why the call to change it :rolleyes: ,

keep safe :D :D .

Come-quickly
6th May 2004, 12:25
Actually I acknowledged that fact in my initial post, I simply argued that a further course for qualified naval divers would be useful to the NS and the DF as a whole.

jpb
6th May 2004, 12:39
why fix it if it aint broke, if a medic did a parachute course would you want to call him a parajumper, he will be still using the skill's he had in the first place except now he can jump out of a plane , so, the navy diver's do a great job as it is, and it is one of the more complex course's in the DF and i don't think any of them would hold with your call for change :mad: , why not leave the navy to the navy.

they have my full respect, and fair play to them and i hope that they may continue doing what they are doing,

keep safe.

Come-quickly
6th May 2004, 14:53
As I said both in the original response and in my subsequent posts, I was suggesting a further training course for qualified divers.
How exactly you can manage to misconstrue that as saying that current training is inadequate is beyond me.

Vice Admiral
6th May 2004, 15:58
Underwater demolition is one of the aspects of an NS divers course - covers quite a bit I believe.
The course is probably the hardest to get onto in the DF, wrt to health, fitness, etc. its also very easy to be retired as it is "Demand" diving, a commercial diver can decline to dive for various reasons but if an NS diver does so once they are no longer an NS diver.

The divers have been very busy doing body searches lately, it keeps them very busy.

jpb
6th May 2004, 20:05
i did not want to point out these aspect's to cq, i would prefer someone from the NS to do it, but as a sports recreational diver and having worked with the NS diver's i cant see how someone not from that field can try and suggest way's to make thing's "better",

keep safe.

yellowjacket
6th May 2004, 20:08
Do the NS divers concentrate on technical tasks or combat type stuff?

Steve
6th May 2004, 20:17
In the UK the diving course is open to their Combat Engineers as...
beach recconaissance, obstacle demolition and sabotage of defences. ..... is what their Combat Engineers are tasked with on land. I don't see why our combat engineers shouldn't be given the option to do a diving course, if they so wish and have the apititude. Our NS Divers should also be given this option to specialise (are they not already tasked with these roles?) in this area to become a Combat Diver.

FMolloy
6th May 2004, 20:29
A full study on future NS involvement in overseas ops would have to be carried out before deciding what, if any, extra training NS divers require. At the moment, they have enough on their plate.

mutter nutter (again)
7th May 2004, 21:59
Originally posted by Steve
In the UK the diving course is open to their Combat Engineers as... ..... is what their Combat Engineers are tasked with on land. I don't see why our combat engineers shouldn't be given the option to do a diving course, if they so wish and have the apititude. Our NS Divers should also be given this option to specialise (are they not already tasked with these roles?) in this area to become a Combat Diver.

On the GIGN website before they took it down, in the section on the ARW it list's, beach recce, underwater demolition and obstecle clearing, harbour recce and sabotage as part of the dive team's expertease

Goldie fish
7th May 2004, 22:39
I think it may be worth pointing out that the Naval Diving course is one of the few courses in the defence forces where people have actually died during the course...
From exhaustion.

hptmurphy
11th May 2004, 02:18
Only one guy died and that was of an undiagnosed heart condition exasperated by the prolonged use of a dry suit.

There is not a seperate navy divers and ranger divers badge.

The rangers qualify as ships divers which are primarily trained for ships maintance and underwater searches. Thes undergo a highly intensive course which is second only to the actual ARW course.

The second aspect of naval diving is clearance diving which relates to undewater demolition. This cousre is only available to CPOs and above. The head of the diving school regardless of rank is a clearance diver.

The clearance divers in the past were tarined by the Royal navy. One clearance diver in particular who will be known by thw name of 'Missus Cooney' those who were on the first crew of the Eithne will know why.....was actuall the most qualified diver in the Nato aligned countries ...although we were never in Nato he still topped the course and was the diving officer for some years....he is now retired.

The claerance diver non officer wear s the gold divers badge on the right sleeve as does the ships diver but has a star above and below the divers helmet.

Qualified officers wear the internationa;ly recognised joined dolphins in silver which is also the submariners mark of recognition.

The naval sevice has one of two decompression cambers in the country the other being in Galway.

These are some of the highest trained operators in the DF and shpuld be in no way underated . They perform the same medical as an airline pilot and take there own lives into their hands each time they enter the water. Of the courses available in the DF this has. the highest failure rate.

Please note I am not attacking anyone because of their posting but I felt that the facts needed to be posted.

Come-quickly
11th May 2004, 09:30
Thanks HPT,
And just for the inevitable individual who only read the highlights: I was not suggesting changing the divers course.
I was suggesting, even questioning if there would be room for a seperate course available to what I now know would be clearance divers, essentially focusing on land security.

jpb
11th May 2004, 19:12
come-quickly,

the individual did read your post a few time's and it appeared to me that what you were suggesting was some form of quasi-SBS unit in the NS ;) .

do you dive, have you ever even contemplated what the diver's in the NS actually go through, did you do any research before you posted the the topic of this thread??????????,

keep safe.

yellowjacket
11th May 2004, 19:59
Originally posted by jpb
it appeared to me that what you were suggesting was some form of quasi-SBS unit in the NS ;)

Would that be a bad plan?

Come-quickly
12th May 2004, 00:05
I don't dive but I'm aware of whats involved in civi diving and I was aware that the NS do things at another level entirely.
The point is that more investment in personnel who have already proved themselves to a higher than normal level can have higher levels of return.
Much of what I suggested would either be a matter of putting into operation what has been practiced already or adapting existing skills, the only really new part was the idea of onshore activities.

I was definitely a bit too vague about certain things, particularly the idea of securing dock facilities etc.
I was thinking of securing in terms of inspecting, obviously they would already have the appropriate underwater skills.
As for the VIP security I wish I hadnt thrown that one in to flesh out the topic.

mutter nutter (again)
12th May 2004, 00:35
Originally posted by yellowjacket
Would that be a bad plan?


No it wouldn't, a small sbs type unit might be usful, isn't the dutch sbs only 24 strong

Goldie fish
12th May 2004, 00:45
I draw your attention to a small irish unit known as the ARW....

jpb
12th May 2004, 00:49
will someone please explain about the need for divers on ships and how sometime's they like all small unit's are overstretched and how are they going to fit in this extra training,

keep safe.

mutter nutter (again)
12th May 2004, 01:04
Originally posted by Goldie fish
I draw your attention to a small irish unit known as the ARW....

I'll draw your attention to the fact that I said that already,but no one took any notice

hptmurphy
12th May 2004, 14:13
Okay the need for divers on ships arises from the fact that ships require on going repairs and safety checks which otherwise would have to be carried out in dry dock which is costly and time consuming.

Light routine maintainance such as the replacing of anodes ...inspection of sonar mountings and clearing of debris are all in a divers days work.

They also have safety applications such as the ships swimmer in the case of accident and the more morbid task of search and recovery of bodies.

These come under the SAR role to which the naval service are very heavily commited.

Don't knock CQ for his thoughts . The role he surmises about ..a quasi SBS....role was actually given serious consideration during the 80s with potential of seaborne hijacking ang gas rig protection. the idea even went as far as a financial appraisal of what would be required . The role would have been carried out ,it was proposed , by personnel who had qualified as divers as this course already had a selection process that was second to none. A dark blue Beret and a special flash would indicate the unit. Its feasibility was undermined by the fact that the ARW could be rapidly deployed to the LE Eithne by helo and be transported to the intended target where she would act as mother ship. She was capable of working with the ARWs boats at the time. The ARW already had the capabilities required so why duplicate the role! The role of ships protection as carried out by the royal marines was capable of being carried out by the ships compliment and as a resultthe naval vessels were equiped with enough small arms to be an effective fighting force themselves.This was proved during operation mallard in 1987 when it was found that the army and their equipment at the time were unable to operate efectively with the gardai and the NS undertook the role.i

sba
13th May 2004, 08:21
I've read this topic with interest, and just wanted to throw in my tuppence worth

I know a few divers in the NS, and I have the utmost respect for them. Anyone who is willing to go into the water around Haulbowline deserves a medal ! It's not like diving in the Med, off Cyprus, or one of those holiday resorts where u can pay your money, and be taken underwater for a 30 minute dive. In those places, you can see for miles...in ireland, you can see for inches! I can remember crossing the bridge on many a cold, wet morning on my way into the base, only to see these guys training on a winters morning...already in the water at 7:30 am!

I agree with Murph. The ARW can be transported anywhere fairly rapidly without the need to duplicate their role, in the NS. A few NS personnel have attended, and passed the selection course for the ARW, and some in fact, stayed with that unit. The NS, and their divers do their jobs very well, and very professionaly. However, the ARW specialises in THEIR jobs, which , I assume, (as I never was a member of that unit, I cant tell for sure) would include assaults on the various gas rigs off the coast, or sneaking up on cold wet beaches to perform a RECCE.

One final thing, I could never understand about divers....it took us millions of years to evolve, and crawl out of the water onto our legs....why on earth would u want to go back?

Enough said!

hptmurphy
13th May 2004, 13:45
the thing I remember about crossing the bridge in Ringaskiddy was we ran out and then turned around and ran back hail rain or snow.....the diving course on the other hand ran out.....jumped off the bridge and swam back.....hail rain or snow.

this practise stopped in 87 due to concerns about man made objects in the water.

fiannoglach
21st May 2004, 00:02
Divers in the NS are what is termed "Working" Divers and are staioned both in the Naval Base and on every ship. NS divers do not have any tactical diving or assiciated skills as this area is the remit of the ARW.

Hpt:There is not a seperate navy divers and ranger divers badge.
Incorrect -NS Diver -Blue, ARW Combat Diver -Green.

The rangers qualify as ships divers which are primarily trained for ships maintance and underwater searches. Thes undergo a highly intensive course which is second only to the actual ARW course.
Negative -ARW Combat Diver Course

hptmurphy
21st May 2004, 23:40
I stand to be corrected....Irecently saw an army ranger in his number ones who wore the gold divers helmet on a blue back round...on the right sleeve of an army uniform...would this indicate that he was previously a naval diver.

In the past the ARW divers were trained by the NS and so were primarily qualified as ships divers ...agin I can be corrected as i am goin back 19years. I remember some of them emerging from the boat camber next to the diving bay one dark winters evening.

When did the combat divers course start as a matter of interest.?

I'm not arguing the points merely pointing out what i new to be true .

On the issue of markings ..may iask what is the significance of a red border on the ranger badge....?
How long is the person qualified to wear the eactual badge...is it for life or is there recurrencey training?

Are naval service parade boots standard issue to the ARW ?

Is the ARW beret the same hue as the royal marines beret?

Do the ARW use the stars over and above the gold divers helmet as a qualification in clearance diving as the NS do?

Do you have to achieve a certain rank with in the ARW to carry out clearance divivng qualification?


Please forgive my intrusion but I feel these are minor points but things that I have noticed of late and am interested in.

fiannoglach
21st May 2004, 23:58
Hi hptmurphy, Only know the details of the badge as I collect insignia, the beret is the same as the RM, except for the green patch behind the capbadge.

Bootneck
22nd May 2004, 00:34
Forgive me for being so ignorant Fiannolghlach ,I was under the impression the ARW beret was grey ?I may be mistaken but this is the colour pictured on the offical PDF site ?Also you mentioned a green patch behind the cap badge ,on a green beret ?Hptmurphy from what I understand the red border on the ARW shoulder flash desigates serving members of the unit ,whereas the flash without the red border represents a Ranger trainned/qualified soldier not currently serving in the unit . I may be wrong ?

Victor
22nd May 2004, 06:40
Originally posted by hptmurphy
this practise stopped in 87 due to concerns about man made objects in the water. Euugghhhh! Which reminds me.
Originally posted by jpb
will someone please explain about the need for divers on ships A submarine's (not sure about ships) ship's diver also gets to connect and disconnect the sewage pipe when in port.

fiannoglach
22nd May 2004, 12:34
Hi Bootneck, It's a Rifle/Sherwood Green beret with a green backing(same colour as the FCA backing) behind the capbadge.

hptmurphy
22nd May 2004, 19:45
No the man made objects in the water were not human waste but large blocks of concrete which remained from the construction of the bridge,It was feared that if one of the trainees misjudged their entry to the water...its a 45ft drop....there would be a terrible a ccident. The jumps were restricted to entry from the bridge wings of ships.