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yellowjacket
7th March 2003, 12:37
Just a quick survey of First Aid skills and equipment carried in the DF.

Do you receive any first aid training?

Besides your issue FFD, do you cary any other First Aid equipment in your webbing/smock etc?

Do you think the current standard of training and equipment is sufficient?

Earhart
7th March 2003, 14:21
I completed a first aid course with the medics last summer. I was very impressed with the level of instruction we received and the medics received. I had previously considered the medics to be a plaster and paracetamol unit! THey were being trained by professionals and were very enthusiastic.

The first aid course members posed as casualties for a medic exercise. The medics came on the scene under a lot of pressure from their instructors. With a lot of noise and shouting each casualy was attended to in an efficient manner. Each team that completed the exercise correctly identified how to treat the casualties.

spiderman
7th March 2003, 16:11
hey kermit, i'd be interested in doing that, through 3FMedCoy? did you (or the unit) have to pay? thanks

ollie
9th March 2003, 00:27
from my own personal exp within the pdf it was drilled into every one to carry their own first aid kit . u were told what to carry and it was up to yourself to buy the items . fist aid training was carried out in recruit training and left at that .if u were lucky u could get on to courses run by depot med but these were rare . i done a course run by a civvy company and managed to get it recognised by my company. as to equipment i remember having to beg borrow and steal to get a decent kit bag to take on the ground since the only one in stores dated from the emergency it was so old

yellowjacket
9th March 2003, 22:10
What contents would you recommend in a first aid kit to be carried in webbing? Feel free to add or subtract to the suggestions below, justify your amendments if possible.

Gloves,
Scissors/Knife (probably already have this anyway)
Antiseptic cream,
Waterproof Plasters,
Compeed blister treatment,
Micropore tape,
10x10 sterile non-adherent dressing pads,
Pressure dressings,
Crepe bandage,
Vent Aid (CPR shield)
Water-Gel / Burnshield burns dressing.
Paracetemol capsules.
Saline steripods (for cleaning wounds/eyewash)

All well sealed in freezer bags.

Total cost should run at less than €25

hptmurphy
9th March 2003, 23:46
left hand lower p-ocket of my smock thats where my my kit is .Fags are on the other side ...can't get a packet into my first aid kit.

boomer
10th March 2003, 00:29
Hmmmm going by my background I have to "wade" into this one :)

I would STRONGLY suggest carrying a few triangular bandages, I would say with the tablets remember that they are for your personal use only, not that of your mate unless you are a Doc, they might have an allergy to paracetemol!

As for First Aid Training I am disgusted to see that the Army dosent do any refresher training, that is if what ollie says is true. A civilian would be hung from the highest rafters if they treated someone and got something wrong, Id imagine it would be the same if an Army person treated a civillian based on their by now out of date training they would be hung drawn and quartered.

If you can do a refresher course by all means do so, I would strongly recommend REC (Rescue and Emergency Care) courses as they generally assume that help is 30 mins + away, if anyone wants contacts them pvt message me and I will forward details. Most of the courses can be organised to last for a weekend or series of weekends.

Shane

Recon
10th March 2003, 03:34
In my own experience First Aid courses are an after thought, in other words something that’s on the programme but can be conveniently brushed aside if time is pressing.

boomer
10th March 2003, 10:36
Sounds like you guys need some help with this...

Ill have a look and see If I can put any good FA links on the site for you but they do of course come with the provision that you need to arrange training!!

Lets start with a small quiz to see what you can remember, What is the first thing you do when you come across a casualty? Answers on the back of a post card to the usual address! (i.e. here!)

Shane

Earhart
10th March 2003, 13:13
Ensure the area is safe!

yellowjacket
10th March 2003, 13:40
Here's a link to the current US army first aid manual:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/4-25.11/fm4-25.11.htm

and the US Navy version:

http://www.vnh.org/StandardFirstAid/toc.html

IMPORTANT PROVISIO's

1. The Basic Life support methods depicted in both do not show the current approved protocols, which are shown here:

http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/bls.htm

2. The tourniquet or indirect pressure methods of stopping bleeding are no longer taught on first aid courses.

3. Nothing on any website is a replacement for a proper first aid course. However, the first two links do provide a military "spin" on the subject.

Curious George
10th March 2003, 13:51
An Emergency Blanket could be thrown into the First Aid Kit too, they're extremely compact and are handy for a number of different things.
It rapidly absorbs sunlight, retains radiated body heat and keeps moisture out.
Also can double as a ground sheet (granted a very shiny one but a ground sheet all the same) or can be shoved inside your clothes to add an extra layer when its really cold.

Curious George
10th March 2003, 14:05
The Irish Water Safety's 'Basic Life Support Manual' is extremely comprehensive and is based on the protocols which are now used in most of Europe. It's not available on line unfortunately, but is cheap enough to get a copy.

I noticed that much of the First Aid Training that is given by Medics in the FCA is slightly dated and is frowned upon by other organisations which teach First Aid in Ireland. Don't really know what it's like these days, and whether or not they've cleaned up their act, but I remember at my Recruit Camp we got a lecture from a Cpl. with one of the medic companies and the techniques he was trying to 'pass on' were ancient.

He even nearly managed to break some poor lads hand trying to put him into his version of the recovery position.

Loque
10th March 2003, 14:05
Luckily on of my fellow NCO's is an excellent first-aider who is a member of the order of Malta. Unfortunately too much reliance is placed on this fact. I've done plenty of safety and CPR courses for my profession, but in the RDF nothing I could call a proper course just bits and pieces here and there, definitely not to feel confident enough to treat someone if they had a serious accident.

Bravo20
10th March 2003, 14:31
The 2 Field Medics ran an occupational safety and first aid course 2 years ago (1 weeks full time). The techniques they used seemed to up to date (of course this is the opinion of somebody who wouldn't know the difference), a lot of their members also worked in the Health field. The problem is that we don't seem to integrate it properly into our basic courses.

boomer
10th March 2003, 14:44
Correct earhart :)

Now whats next?

I will look at those links tonight and put together something for the site that can help you with the basics but I would STRONGLY encourage you to get a course organised, if enough people ask for one then something has to be done, failing that I could always lobby the Minister for Defence.....

Just a quick question for my info, how many incidents on average requiring First Aid would the average unit see in a week both on and off exercise (i.e. out in the wet and cold!)

Come-quickly
10th March 2003, 15:14
Yeah my qualifications about two years out of date, one thing I always pack is the mountaineers first aid kit....spare warm (I use micro) fleece(s), hot drinks in a flask, gortex bivvy bag and something to use as a splint....triangulars are easy enough to substitute, I used to have a mate who worked in a medical supply place but that source has since dried up.

Come-quickly
10th March 2003, 15:14
Oh yeah, prioritise patients

yellowjacket
10th March 2003, 15:30
OK then, another question.

Cold wet night, in a foxhole. Person beside you goes quiet, you assume they're sleeping. When you want to swap over and get some sleep, you go to shake person awake. Colleague opens eyes reluctantly, mumbles incoherently, is not shivering, does not wake up properly. His/her skin feels very cold to the touch.

What next?

Come-quickly
10th March 2003, 15:58
Can I use light...check for greying of extremities, assume hypo-thermia, get them out of any wet gear give them spare dry clothes (enter Micro fleece), put them in sleeping bag and/or gortex bivvy bag, if possible get someone in there with them...call for casevac

Earhart
10th March 2003, 16:50
Assuming you're on tactics (and not in some war) GET HELP! There will be medics (should be at least one) and other people with first aid around you. Keep the person warm and awake until you get help. Don't go risking your comrades live for the sake of proving your skill as a first aider.

Thanks to an officer and a class mate on my Standards course I was kept alive in a similar situation. I never thought I'd be so glad to get a cuppa-soup. :)

yellowjacket
10th March 2003, 16:56
Good answers so far,
hypothermia will kill, so it's definitely an emergency.

- If the person has stopped shivering, their core temp has fallen to around 32-30 degrees.
- If the person is still alert a warm drink is good, otherwise it could choke the casualty.
- Don't walk the person around "to warm them back up". This will draw heat away from the core of the body, and could kill the person.

Khumbu
10th March 2003, 18:27
i have used the Emergency blanket a couple of times , Once when i got hypothermia, it was very effective, but the only way it will work is if you are TOTALLY naked under it. It does not keep you warm if you do the following:

"or can be shoved inside your clothes to add an extra layer when its really cold".

I took my emergency blanket hiking once, i didnt even bring my sleeping bag (needed to cut down on the weight of my pack) coz i was so confident of the blankets capability, we got a bloody snowstorm that night...... i froze my ass off...... my clothes were actually frozen to the ground sheet the next morning...... it was painful to say the least!!!!! (now that what i call stupidity...ha ha)

.

Come-quickly
10th March 2003, 19:35
Apart from the "mountaineers first aid kit" the only medical equipment that non specialists should really carry are plasters, dressings and disinfectants...bandages are handy but not hard to improvise in the short term until you either find a medic or the bit of him that has the bag attached to it...other stuff you should have in your kit anyway, like plastic bags and something stiff to put over a sucking chest wound.
The plasters and disinfectant are more a matter of personal admin, along with whatever creams and ointments you bring along for bites etc.

Just one question for the experts has anyone here ever tried to put someone into the recovery position in an enclosed space (i.e. trench, dense forest, narrow ledge?

Come-quickly
10th March 2003, 19:38
Oh and the space blanket is pap, noisy pap, carry a micro fleece some more mars bars and a breathable bivvy bag so the dry fresh clothes don't get soaked. (if they have a break or potential spinal injury cut the bag open and wrap around them; tuck it under gently, preferably use the secure stretcher role if its possible)

yellowjacket
10th March 2003, 19:43
The recovery position is the ideal, stable position for an unattended unconscious casualty. If you're in a confined space, you obviously have to improvise. Once the head and chest are level, and fluids can drain out of the mouth, it'll probably do, but you may have to hold or support them in position.

boomer
11th March 2003, 00:36
Confined space, oh yeah and he was a pain in the neck!

If you have to put them in the recovery position to leave them then you have to do it, how you do it is a different matter. As I have been told at a recent First Aid refresher course "It Depends". Everything you would do as a First Aider depends on the Scenario you have in front of you.

Now for the next part you see 4 people and you are on your own,

Cas 1 is quiet.
Cas 2 is roaring like a bull
Cas 3 appears conscious but his face is white as a sheet
Cas 4 is wandering around.

What do you do?

Shane

ollie
11th March 2003, 00:53
most important thing i ever carried in my first aid kit was my hip flask!

in general first aid training in the df was poor ,as said above it was considered secondary in recruit training to other subjects . i dont know how its taught nowadays but having done an occupational first aid for my employers i now see just how weak it was .hopefully things have changed !

a tweesers should always be carried . we were also told to carry iodine or tea tree oil as anteseptics and cling film for use as an emergency protective cover , how hi-tech can u get

Come-quickly
11th March 2003, 15:48
Treat 1 and 3 first, sit 4 into a safe visible position, once you've scanned 1 and have tried to wake or resuccitate them, treat 3 for, look for shock, then check 4 who might have been pumping out there own fluids, finally attend to the screamer when you're satisfied that the other 3 are stable.

Yellowjacket wrote:
What contents would you recommend in a first aid kit to be carried in webbing? Feel free to add or subtract to the suggestions below, justify your amendments if possible.

Gloves,
Scissors/Knife (probably already have this anyway)
Antiseptic cream,
Waterproof Plasters,
Compeed blister treatment,
Micropore tape,
10x10 sterile non-adherent dressing pads,
Pressure dressings,
Crepe bandage,
Vent Aid (CPR shield)
Water-Gel / Burnshield burns dressing.
Paracetemol capsules.
Saline steripods (for cleaning wounds/eyewash)

All well sealed in freezer bags.

Total cost should run at less than €25

This is what I have in my kit at the moment, between this, my Swiss army and the aforementioned hot drinks warm layers I reckon this is enough.

boforgunner
11th March 2003, 16:00
good answer

yellowjacket
11th March 2003, 16:10
Taking kermit's carefully considered tips a step further, here's an alternative guide to first aid.

http://www.rusbasan.com/Humor/First_Aid_Tips.html

:D

boomer
11th March 2003, 16:18
Kermits reply reminds me of a First Aid Course we did a while back when the instructor asked us what would we do if an epileptic had a fit in a bath, our snappy reply was pull th eplug his reply was "No you put your washing in and add some washing powder" followed by snap out of it dont take it so seriously!!!

We had answered as one all 20 of us bet that gave him a fright lol

Shane

Lost Watchdog
12th March 2003, 08:51
Hope First Aid procedures have improved since the last time I saw a potentially serious injury. Some gobshite went head first over a wall during an ambush exercise at Kilbride, landing heavily on his shoulder. Luckily one of our number was a nurse, but unluckily (for the casualty) he was told to stand back by the PDF bod and let the guy who had done a course lasting a few weekends with the medics treat the casualty. Coz the nurse had n't done the army course, he could n't treat anybody despite his professional skills, fear of lawyers and all that.

maverick
12th March 2003, 16:50
I'll go one better, on a tactical exercise, someone jumped over a ditch, stumbled and landed on their weapon breaking their arm. No medic onsite with us either. Bungled the poor b**tard into a transit and brought him to the hospital closest to the barracks, not necessarily the closest hospital to where the incident occurred. A real money spinner for the incompetent individual involved as I recall.

medic
12th March 2003, 23:08
Have to throw my tuppence worth in here. I spent a while (a good while) in the PDF. Since leaving I've become an EMT. Iwas a qualified medic (the full 10 week course, not the 5 day regimental course) in the PDF.

Couple of points to make
1.Talk of what you should carry is all very well, if you know how to use the gear youre carrying.

2.From what I have seen of the RDF (and I'm not bashing "sandbags" here, I'm seriously considering going back into the reserve) it seems that the only people who take the whole first aid thing seriously is the medics.

3.As regards the incident where the nurse couldn't treat the guy who fell over a wall - RUBBISH. The nurse would have been the senior medical authority on the scene and therefore would have been covered. If I witness a heart attack in Superquinn, by the same logic I can't do anything because I haven't done a first aid course supplied by superquinn:p

Bravo20
13th March 2003, 11:55
Medic you are correct about medical training for RDF outside of medical units. It is non-existant. However the incident with regard to the nurse is something that would happen, it doesn't make sense but it makes army sense.

Loque
13th March 2003, 12:07
I think that there is a problem is that alot of people are not confident enough to treat people because they feel they may end up doing more harm that good and leave themselves open for legal prosecution. The attitude is "don't look at me leave it to the expert", this is all well and good if there is such a person is available. Although if I recall correctly one of the principles of first aid is that you cannot be prosecuted for trying to help someone in a first aid situation, I suppose in these days of "compo culture" people aren't willing to take the risk. In any instance of an accident you should at least weigh up the situation and get help.

Bravo20
13th March 2003, 14:05
Knowledge breads confidence

medic
13th March 2003, 20:59
Just to clarify a point loque made. Technically you can be prosecuted for giving incorrect first aid.

The point to remember here is never try to do something medically outside your scope of training. If you haven't been trained to do open heart surgery in the field don't.

There is a consensus called the Good Samaritan Law. It's an American concept but is generally accepted here. In a nutshell it means you generally won't be prosecuted if you are trying to help someone. But, and keep this in mind- it isn't written in law.

boomer
14th March 2003, 09:59
Guys there is a few first aid courses listed in An Cosantoir so if you are interested in doing one grab a copy of it and go for the course. I dont know anything about them but noticed them last night and thought Id better mention it :)

Shane

yellowjacket
4th April 2003, 20:50
Another scenario so.
On a grenade range. Something goes wrond and two people catch fragments.
The first has messy facial injuries, lots of blood, collapses, lying on the ground, semi-conscious.
The second caught shrapnel in the chest and legs. Still conscious and able to talk, but having difficulty breathing. Slumped against a wall in a sitting position. Not as much blood loss.

What now?

The Joker
7th April 2003, 00:02
yea, its quite easy when you have the correct training. A quick point for yellow jacket, there is no point in having a vent aid or CPR shield in your first aid bag, because you have to know how to carry out CPR properly, medics are trained to do it without the vent aid, I you attempt to do CPR on somebody who has a pulse even a weak one, you will kill them. I know this for a fact because i am a medic. Just thought I would tell you before you went out and bought one!

Come-quickly
7th April 2003, 11:10
The chst job should be checked for internal bleeding and pneumothorax, lie them on the bad side to make sure that fluid doesn't drain into the healthier lung, and unless theres someone very skilled about evacuated immediately (or you are a paramedic in US style), the facial injuries should be cleaned and dressed and sent to a surgeon to remove the shrapnel.

Joker I think your comments are more than a little condescending especially to Yellowjacket, everyone with even mediocre training has had the parameters for performing cardio-pulmonary resuscitation beaten into them.

boomer
7th April 2003, 16:18
Joker

I too am a Medic and we have never trained without the Vent Aid for several reasons but chief of which is infection prevention. I dont know where you trained but it certainly isnt in any First Aid Team/Medical Profession I would join!!!!

Anyway Im off to bed had a busy weekend with 6 people in hospital and what felt like 200 blisters!!!

Shane

yellowjacket
7th April 2003, 19:27
Originally posted by The Joker
yea, its quite easy when you have the correct training. A quick point for yellow jacket, there is no point in having a vent aid or CPR shield in your first aid bag, because you have to know how to carry out CPR properly, medics are trained to do it without the vent aid, I you attempt to do CPR on somebody who has a pulse even a weak one, you will kill them. I know this for a fact because i am a medic. Just thought I would tell you before you went out and bought one!

Sorry, but if that's the extent of your knowledge or training, you have no business calling yourself a medic.

The Joker
7th April 2003, 20:37
I never said that was the extent of my training, lets not go jumping to conclusions or anything. I was just saying, we do all of our CPR training with CPR manicins. We carry out CPR training with BVM (Bag Valve Masks which are the face masks with the bag attached to it, for all those people who dont keep up-to-date with ER!) Normally this would be kept in an airway bag along with a list of other airway related medical equipment. I am simply saying that in the event that you dont have an airway bag you should as medics be able to carry out CPR by yourself.:)

boomer
8th April 2003, 00:57
Just a small point Joker

Whats the point in keeping a vent aid in an airway bag if you are going to use the BVM anyway?

And remember there are almost no occasions when an EMT (is this your qual?) would do CPR on his/her own. as they always (not counting the Motorcycle EMTs but thats a different kettle of fish) work in pairs.

I actually keep my vent aid attached to my belt with a pair of gloves. I do carry a BVM but that is in the first aid kit which I can leave anywhere but still perform CPR without the FA kit which from which it appears you couldnt.

Shane

The Joker
8th April 2003, 17:51
Well, we dont have vent aids in the airway bag, just the BVM. secondly, if a medic was out with a section, then more than likely he would be on his own.

Medics are thought how to do 1 person CPR first and then 2 person CPR.

People are only EMT's after they have completed the EMT course run by the Dublin Fire Brigade or Ambulance school in the Phoenix Park both of which take 6 full months.

The closest the RDF get is a 2 week ambulance course run by the medical school in the curragh. This qualifies you to work on an army amublance and use the A.E.D (Automatic External Defibrillator).:)

boomer
8th April 2003, 18:01
Oh good god!

You do not carry a vent aid for CPR????

Joker picture this scenario and remember it is not beyond the realms of possibility and almost happened at the weekend!

You are out and about on your own, as you mentioned could happen, you come across a soldier lying on the ground with no breathing, no pulse, You dont have a Vent Aid, do you perform CPR?

Remember a BVM can only really be used in a two person environment. Go out and get yourself a Vent Aid or a Merlin Pocket Mask (which can also be used in conjunction with the BVM) and stop implying that you dont need them.

Oh and another point you cant kill someone if they have a pulse when you are performing CPR (Go and update your training, that is the latest teaching!)

Shane

The Joker
8th April 2003, 19:10
If I had no BVM or vent aid then I would still carry out CPR. But I would have to judge if I thought he was infected then no. But I would make a judgement call. We were trained to use a BVM by ourself as a 1 man team. the only difference is that you do over head CPR rather that from the side.

boomer
9th April 2003, 10:13
You really dont know what the vent aid is for do you :)

Its not so much for infection control as for stopping the patients puke going into your mouth and nose (and believe me cardiac patients do puke and WILL do it when you are giving them their two breaths.

As for doing a 1 man BVM drill, I dont think it is recommended as it wastes far too much time between picking up the bvm, checking its placement, giving two breaths etc. The recommended time for stopping compressions is 6 seconds MAX doing a 1 man BVM takes longer than that, whereas using a Vent Aid takes just under 6 seconds (for me anyway).

Shane

The Joker
9th April 2003, 20:18
I have never come accross a vent aid in my career as medic in the RDF. I would tend to agree with you about the one man BVM drill, but its better to know how to do it by yourself rather that scratching your head should, if you were on your own.

1st Aider
9th April 2003, 22:25
Speaking strictly as a member of the Red Cross in Limerick, out on duties we carry both BVMs and Vent Aids but although it is desirable to carry Vent Aids everywhere with you, its not going to happen so plain mouth to mouth is what we base a lot of our CPR around, at least up until advanced, then more emphasis is placed on the use of BVMs etc,

boomer
9th April 2003, 23:57
Well thats one crowd I wont be contacting when organising a camp in the next while for scouts.

I always carry a vent aid even when not on duty, it is a very bad idea these days not to use one, If I am in a situation where I do not have any form of barrier mask device I will not perform CPR at all. Purely because the chances of my intervention making a difference weighed up against the risk to my self is not worth it.

YIS

Shane

Goldie fish
10th April 2003, 00:42
The Gardai have been issued with those barrier yokies(after my time). That is whats contained in those wallet size pouches on their belt. One thing you have to admire the gardai for,They take the Hep risk very seriously.
I am not sure which one,it is a small sheet of plastic with a one way valve to be placed over the mouth.
The other one I have seen(but never used) is a contraption which holds the victims tongue forward,while protecting the user from backflush..

boomer
10th April 2003, 11:42
Goldie

The Gardai are being 100% correct but tbh knowing the little time they have for training how many of them actually remember how to do CPR :)

on the other thing you mentioned, I dont recognise it from your description, is it something new? Its entirely possible that I have seen it but dont realise it :)

Shane

medic
10th April 2003, 22:56
After reading all this I honestly believe anyone posting on a Medical/First aid topic should have to make public their qualification.

If someone just surfed in here they would get a very confusing picture of what is right and what is wrong and more importantly what is taught in the RDF (first aid wise)

I'm not going to get involved in this one, but some of the people posting really need to back over their first aid notes

1st Aider
11th April 2003, 00:03
Regarding me medic, Im just an intermediate 1st aider who was letting know the proceedures we've been trained in in the Red Cross. It is basically up to yourself what you do in a situation demanding the administration of CPR but speaking personally, if I came across such a situation without any vent aid,(and barring any visible signs of any disease or disorder around the mouth) I would administer mouth to mouth and attemt to keep that persons heart going until a AED arrived.I know I am risking myself and its not a clever thing to do but the alternative is to watch that person die whilst knowing that I had the training and ability to at least help him. Call me stupid but if thats the only thing I could do to help prevent a person dying well thats what I'd do. How about the rest of ye?

boomer
11th April 2003, 00:44
As I have said before, If there was a situation where a person needed CPR and I had no vent aid, bvm or anything which could be used as such I would not perform CPR as is my option as a trained First Aider. This will never change owing to the fact that CPR is proven to not be 100% effective and the realistic chance of CPR saving someones life is the wrong side of 50% for me to risk my life and health without a barrier mask of some form.

For the record I have performed CPR on someone, unfortunately they died (there was a lot of things against them from the word go) but I did have a vent aid then and so I did try. As they say you win some you lose some.

Shane

The Joker
13th April 2003, 16:47
Here are my qualifications:
4 year experiance with an RDF Medical unit.
The ambulance skills course.
6 covering camps.

As I already said if I have no barrier or BVM, then I would do CPR.

EagleEye
13th April 2003, 17:10
As a qualified Rescue Diver and Medic First Aider, i always carry a pocket mask for use in CPR situation in the water as normal mouth to mouth is near impossible unless their are two person in the water to support the victim or the water is totally still with no surf. With regard to CPR, i myself who carry out CPR without any barrier is the situation arose, this is just me, but i couldn't stand by and do nothing if i knew i could improve a person chances or survival.

yellowjacket
13th April 2003, 19:14
How I see it,
All first aiders should carry a CPR barrier, either a pocket mask or a more compact (but less effective) vent-aid. The risks for infection from CPR aren't massive, but they do exist. It's the same reason you wear gloves.

In a situation where you were without a barrier device and had to decide to do CPR or not, then it's a choice you have to make. Unless a clear risk existed (e.g. a junkie with a mouth covered in open sores or similar), I suspect most people would go down the cpr road. (Improvised devices, e.g. a plastic bag are still an option of course.)

A vent-aid takes no training to use, a pocket mask takes training, but if used properly is more effective than a BVM.

FURTHER READING

What CPR barriers are: http://www.prolinetraining.com/barriers/cpr_devices.htm

CPR infection risks: http://www.gmcc.ab.ca/nw/hsfacentral/bls/Diseasetrans.htm ,

All about CPR: http://www.resus.org.uk/siteindx.htm#medical

The Joker
14th April 2003, 20:04
What you are saying make perfect sence but as an RDF medic, I have never come across this. I have never even seen one I our stores, who's fault that is I dont know.

boomer
14th April 2003, 23:47
HAve you ever heard that Health and Safety is everyones concern?

I.e. if its not there and you should have it complain to your superiors!

Shane

medic
15th April 2003, 22:13
The point of a BVM is to supply supplimental oxygen to the patient so it should be used in conjunction with o2 where poss. In this regard yellow jacket it most certainly is much better than a pocket mask

yellowjacket
16th April 2003, 19:28
Most pocket masks have an O2 inlet.
Pocket masks are easier to use correctly than BVM's. (One study showed more than half of the paramedics tested were unable to deliver adequate ventilation volumes with them. The majority could with pocket masks.)

medic
18th April 2003, 12:12
Please enlighten me as to what study this was, where it was done, when it was done and who carried it out. Using a BVM is little more than a Basic First Aid skill. If you can't deliver ventilations with a BVM the odds are you won't deliver them with a pocket mask as it has more to do with maintaining a patent airway than anything else

yellowjacket
18th April 2003, 23:10
Since you asked,:D

Hess D. Baran C; Ventilation Volumes Using Mouth-to Mouth, Mouth-to Mask and Bag-Valve Techniques. Am J Med 1985; 3:292-296.

Standards and Guidelines for Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation and Emergency Cardiac Care. JAMA 1986;225:2905-2960.

Elling R, Politis J; An Evaluation of Emergency Medical Technicians' Ability to use Manual Ventilation Devices. Ann Emer Med Services 1982;7:44-46.

Harrison RR, Maul KI, et.al; Mouth-to Mask Ventilation: A Superior Method of Rescue Breathing. Ann Emer Med 1982;11:74-76.

Augustine JA, Seidel DR, McCabe JB; Ventilation Performance Using a Self-Inflating Anesthesia Bag. Am J. Emer Med 1982;11:74-76.

An Irish study
http://www.imj.ie/news_detail.php?nNewsId=2608&nVolId=100
has a detailed study of this subject in the Irish setting. It shows that that a large amount of experience is needed to effectively operate BVMs, and that most Irish EMT's are indeed well capable of doing so. (This was not the case in the American studies above, and in other more recent studies quoted in the above link) It doesn't give much confidence in the ability of anaesthetists to do so......


Anyway, this is all going a bit technical, and fairly off-topic.

medic
19th April 2003, 17:19
Given the dates you listed I think you should be aware that at the time there were no EMT's in this country.

As regards America the problem is that every state has it's own level of training and certification.

While I am not argueing the point with you, I think (and hope) you would agree that things have come on a bit since the early eighties.

Getting back to topic. I find it fairly disturbing that whether to use a Bvm over a pocket mask is being discussed by RDF medics. Surely there are protocols in place.

The Joker
14th June 2007, 18:39
Was actually looking for a seperate thread and came accross this thread.

Just an update with regards to the equipment 4 years on!

Still have never been issued barrier devices, they are simply not in the stores!

Numerious times last year I had to use my OWN personal medical gear/equipment on people because the DF does not provide them. Not too long ago I went into the stores to organise equipment for an upcoming camp. I was looking for hand held suction units and BVM's, there were none there. I asked that a req be put in for them and I was told "You probably wont get that", I then explained that because we didnt have any that I would have to use my own equipment....The reply...."Well what ever you want to do yourself" :mad:

Its a sad state of affairs really...

The Joker
14th June 2007, 19:00
Actually I went looking for equipment that we never had in the stores before and was told "You cant just ask for stuff like that, it has to be on the forms" :mad:

Goldie fish
14th June 2007, 19:39
Are leeches still on the inventory then?

The Joker
14th June 2007, 19:41
HAHA.....Some of the stuff you would have no problem getting are;

Preperation H
Forans Cough mixture
Calimine lotion

Hardly stuff suitable for an emergency medical kit!

Scout
16th June 2007, 19:15
Hope First Aid procedures have improved since the last time I saw a potentially serious injury. Some gobshite went head first over a wall during an ambush exercise at Kilbride, landing heavily on his shoulder. Luckily one of our number was a nurse, but unluckily (for the casualty) he was told to stand back by the PDF bod and let the guy who had done a course lasting a few weekends with the medics treat the casualty. Coz the nurse had n't done the army course, he could n't treat anybody despite his professional skills, fear of lawyers and all that.

i would agree with this
i have come accross doctors who had't a clue how to deal with the injury and i was in that situation more qualified,
and I have trained nureses in First aid


If I had no BVM or vent aid then I would still carry out CPR. But I would have to judge if I thought he was infected then no. But I would make a judgement call. We were trained to use a BVM by ourself as a 1 man team. the only difference is that you do over head CPR rather that from the side.

can you tell me how to do this? please!






yea, its quite easy when you have the correct training. A quick point for yellow jacket, there is no point in having a vent aid or CPR shield in your first aid bag, because you have to know how to carry out CPR properly, medics are trained to do it without the vent aid, I you attempt to do CPR on somebody who has a pulse even a weak one, you will kill them. I know this for a fact because i am a medic. Just thought I would tell you before you went out and bought one!

see new protocalls


Speaking strictly as a member of the Red Cross in Limerick, out on duties we carry both BVMs and Vent Aids but although it is desirable to carry Vent Aids everywhere with you, its not going to happen so plain mouth to mouth is what we base a lot of our CPR around, at least up until advanced, then more emphasis is placed on the use of BVMs etc,

where the F$^% are you in the Red cRoss , cause i know for a FACT limerick train with Barier devices...
please tell me the name of you rtrainer and i'll talk to them about it