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Loque
24th March 2003, 11:54
I was wondering what civie para courses if any are recognised by the PDF/RDF ?. I'd like to do a parachute course but I'd rather do one which is recognised as a opposed to spending alot of money on something which is of no use apart from the fact that I've jumped out of a perfectly good aeroplane. I know that there is a course being run by the army this year but there are just too few places availble for it to be a possibility that I'd get on it.
Any information would be appreciated.

Big Al
24th March 2003, 13:42
None, you must do the df course, couldnt have a bunch of sandbags doing civie courses outnumbering the qualified pdf personnel now could we?

Loque
24th March 2003, 13:52
Yeah, how dare the baggers pay for their own courses!
Ah well, looks like I'll never get an ice cream cone for my uniform!

Truck Driver
24th March 2003, 14:31
I'm told a gang of lads did a para course in Holland, at a Dutch para base. These guys subsequently were awarded Dutch para wings, which they got permission to wear on their Irish uniform. I know of a few 20 Inf Bn lads who did it, and I've seen a 7 Inf Bn Cpl wearing them too... ask the boys from these units (T.I.M, FMolloy, etc...)

FMolloy
24th March 2003, 14:35
I know 2 or 3 from the 20th did it, but I haven't seen them with Dutch wings up.

Bravo20
24th March 2003, 14:43
Not supposed to wear the wings. No permission granted (plenty of posts on this issue). I think I know the NCO in the 7 Bn (and as far as I know he shouldn't be wearing them!!).

ollie
24th March 2003, 23:56
lads from the 3 bn did the same thing .went to holland to do the course. got recognition for it, but couldnt wear any flashes

also we had a guy in the bn who was ex ffl and had qualified as a para over there he spent along time trying to get permission to wear his wings but was refused

Vice Admiral
25th March 2003, 00:15
Permission was never granted, despite the dutch course being to a NATO standard. Twp RDF were on the Army para course last year and both passed. Their was talk of a course entirely for RDF in May of this year but it was cancelled with the promise that half of the course scheduled for september would go to RDF. In any case, previous parachuting experience is required for an RDF applicant, read between the lines, you need the dutch course to get on the Irish one!

Bailer
25th March 2003, 09:42
<font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">I know 4 people from the 7bn who qualified on the course in 2001 2 of them are good friends of mine! They were told before they went they could wear the wings, but as soon as they got back some officer or such told them they couldn't. This issue went all the way up to DFHQ where they were told only IRISH para wings could be worn, Two of them from a certain company still wear them though!!

It was mentioned that people with previous experience would be preferable for the Jump course but all aplicants can apply. Dont just not apply because you havn't jumped before maybe the demand will convince them to run an entirely RDF course next year. I know I'll be applying.

I think California Tanker could shed some light on how this is handled in the US as he passed the Texel course aswell!

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California Tanker
25th March 2003, 19:53
US policy is about as restrictive on the issue as Irish policy.

The only reason I get to wear my wings is by way of a specific exemption in the list of requirements (For those who earned foreign wings in foreign service before joining the US military).

If you are currently in the US military, the only way to go get foreign wings is to be on jump status in an American unit, and already have American wings. Even attending the foreign course if you do not meet these two criteria is not authorised.

NTM

medic
25th March 2003, 21:39
Here's the story lads.
Firstly the parachute course in the PDF is classed as a sports course and not a military one.
The issue of foreign wings is as follows.
Foreign awards (wings, medals ect) can only be worn on ceremonial uniform when the Military attache of the awarding country is present as a guest on the parade. In the case of para wings, the wings will then be worn on the opposite side to where Irish wings would be worn.
Secondly, the major issue with the dutch wings is this. You are not allowed wear cloth wings on an irish army uniform.
Now before I get a shit load of replies, I know there are guys out there wearing all sorts of badges. I've seen them.But keep in mind I've seen guys wearing ARW flashes and I know for a fact they were never near the wing

Bailer
25th March 2003, 23:08
<font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">Cloth wings are acceptable to wear as it is a military qualification and therefore are acceptable on the uniform, AS LONG AS THE QUALIFICATION WAS ATTAINED IN THE IRISH DEFENCE FORCES, When the Field dress was introduced All "coloured" Badges flashes etc. were banned from the Uniform except in special circumstances, i.e. overseas unit flashes and the Tricolour. The Only badges so far that have been approved are the Para Badge and a miniature version of the Geneva Cross (Medics Badge ) All other Badges (all army marksman, sniper, CTI, Diver etc have not yet been approved.

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California Tanker
26th March 2003, 00:52
How does that apply to the #1 uniform?

US regs do state that awards which are only awarded as cloth insignia may not be worn, but the Dutch wings are enamelled and so are acceptable.

NTM

yooklid
26th March 2003, 04:05
How the hell do they go about doing the Dutch Course? Is it expensive (I am assuming that you have to pay). If it is voluntary and payment is needed, I might get it for my brother as a birthday present.

Yooklid

maverick
26th March 2003, 16:57
That dutch course is great fun, you get a nice condensed training package and are cinfident enough to jump after two or three days. Tonnes of sound lads there aswell from both ireland and britain. It's a bit pricey though and a bit of a waste of money if you chicken out of jumping.

boforgunner
26th March 2003, 17:01
has anyone ever paid the money....gone to do the crs....and then never jumped?

Bailer
26th March 2003, 17:14
<font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">AS Far As I Know CT the Rules only apply to Field Dress people still wear the cloth ones on number ones the Irish DF have always used Cloth qualifications! (The DF are So Poor!!) Only medals have metal in them!! An Irish Soldier with no medals can walk through a metal detector with all their gear and the only thing that will show up is the Staple belt!!

is this just the Class A uniform this rule applies to ?? I saw a US officer with silver ice cream cone on his DPM's!!


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maverick
26th March 2003, 18:35
I know one person that went and didn't jump at all, and another that did four out of the five but didn't have the chance to do the fifth. In addition, there were a number of injuries on the course, broken legs etc, from turkeys not landing properly. Actually, I remember the first time we jumped, two people collided while floating down, the only thing the instructor said was he'd seen people die from less serious accidents, luck of the irish or what.

FMolloy
26th March 2003, 18:41
I can see the merit in asking for people who have jumped previously, they're a lot less likely to bottle it in the plane. But is it accurate to say they want people from the Texel jump specifically? I'd like to jump but I'm not forking out to do it in Holland, I'd be more inclined to do it here. They said they wanted experience, but they didn't say what experience.

boforgunner
26th March 2003, 18:47
i think i may know who your on about mav.........................must really love earoplanes

California Tanker
26th March 2003, 19:13
Originally posted by Bailer
is this just the Class A uniform this rule applies to ?? I saw a US officer with silver ice cream cone on his DPM's!!


To quote AR 670-5-1, section on BDUs:

"The wearing of foreign awards and badges on this uniform is not authorised"

Thus I don't even wear the subdued Dutch wings on my BDUs, let alone silver ones.

I'd be curious to know how he did it.. or if he just disregarded the regs.

NTM

maverick
26th March 2003, 19:14
Boforgunner that could very well be the person.
As for the course, any experience with jumping is good experience, I don't think they'll care whether you did jumps in texel, the midlands or with a troop of rebels in guatamala. But if they have a list, the people with no experience will always be at the bottom.

yooklid
26th March 2003, 19:54
So how much is it?????

Docman
26th March 2003, 19:58
The Dutch course was attended by Irish in 1998. Anyone who did the course in the early days got official permission to wear the wings from DCOS(ops). Then in 2001, about 50 irish went on the course and earned their wings. Unfortunately, the DFHQ got nervous at the amount of people involved and stopped granting permission. You see occasionally people who earned their wings in the early days and have the paperwork to back them up.

After the DFHQ stopped granting permission, people stopped going on the course and there has been no Irish involvement since 2001. There is nothing stopping people doing the course as it is still being run for Brits and other nationals. There is one being run this may but it is probably too late to attend. There is also one in Estonia run by the same guys later in the year which involves night & water jumps. I can get the details if anyone wants them but remember, the DF will NOT grant permission to wear the wings and the costs usually total about €500-700 not including spending money.

medic
27th March 2003, 21:22
Is the point of a "course" not to learn to do something. So why look for people who have jumped before (besides the bottle factor)

FMolloy
28th March 2003, 00:09
I reckon it's purely a bottle thing, they don't want to fork out on an expensive course for baggers who aren't going to jump.

Earhart
28th March 2003, 10:30
If someone doesn't jump - that's there choice. Perhaps they weren't comfortable with the amount of training they received or the progress they made through that training. Maybe they just wanted the person in front of them to go and then thought - **** this! Maybe they like airplanes and wanted to get a spin in the cockpit and land with the a/c. Or perhaps when they were boarding the aircraft they saw someone land and not get up - who broke their leg!

Let us not condemn those who do not jump. Spare a thought for those who thought greater of their life than to risk it jumping from a perfectly good aircraft.

Loque
28th March 2003, 11:05
Well, I think it's that they don't want to fork out on an expensive course for baggers fullstop.
If I was paying for it myself you're damn sure I'm going to jump. I've seen some recruits who have been afraid to fire on the range so they didn't, it's a nerves thing.

1 thousand ..2 thousand ..3 thousand.............................

FMolloy
28th March 2003, 11:05
If they're not going to jump they shouldn't be on the course.

Loque
28th March 2003, 11:07
If they don't jump they should be charged the full fee for the course!!:)

maverick
28th March 2003, 17:42
I would like to point out that you should only talk about being afraid to jump out if you have stood at the door two thousand feet up and jumped yourself.

FMolloy
28th March 2003, 18:08
No one is belittling anyone who hasn't jumped. We're just pointing out that the course is looking for experienced students because they are less likely to freeze. Since this is a high-profile course it would be embarrasing if a number of students refused to jump. It would also be seen as a waste of money. For these reasons the course cannot afford to have failures.

maverick
28th March 2003, 18:16
Fair enough, the plane over in Holland was an antonov AN-2 russian biplane, you could jump out of it standing up. As far as I am aware the plane the DF is using is a run of the mill cessna, that means the exit is totally different, you have to edge out of hte plane on your ass and then push off sideways. I know it doesn't sound like much, but that could 'spook' even experienced jumpers.

Also, the cessna carries only three or four per stick whereas you can get 12 into an antonov, as far as I know there is a civilian one down in cork, wouldn't it be nice if the DF 'borrowed' it for a few weeks during the summer??

yooklid
28th March 2003, 18:53
Borrow it hell.

An-2's can be picked up in various states for about 8K a pop

Yooklid

Come-quickly
28th March 2003, 19:40
Always thought jumping out of a Cessna would be rather like stepping out of a land rover

landmark
28th March 2003, 19:44
If anyone wants to go to Texel - there are still places on the para course next month, Saturday April 12th to Friday 18th. The details are:

"Course consists of five jumps from the AN2, Dutch "B" wings awarded on completion with certificate, Pathfinder UK basic wings and certificate on completion and civilian international sports jump licence. Possible day trip to Arnhem to the Airborne forces museum. For further information from PathfinderUK1@aol.com "

California Tanker
28th March 2003, 21:42
Four of my five were out of the Colt. Due to weather issues, we were unable to get a fifth jump in during the course, but I had decided to spend an extra week in Holland, and so was able to return to Texel a few days later to finish the job. Jump 5 was out of a Cessna Caravan. Frankly, the exit, whilst different, wasn't any less off-putting. If you're able to jump out of the Colt, you can do it out of the Cessna. (Actually, I think the Cessna one was worse: you're sitting at the edge for a lot longer, looking at the view)

NTM

Docman
29th March 2003, 19:04
The parachure course run by the DF is only for experienced jumpers not because they don't want people bottling but instead because they refused to recognise the Dutch NATO course and are trying to relieve some of the flak they received for not doing so. It is a way of stopping the RDFRA and other interested parties from having a field day with the DF refusing to recognise a course that every other country in the new European RRF recognises.

Groundhog
29th March 2003, 20:07
Other than having a few lads throwing shapes with wings on their uniforms, whats the point of a parachuting course when we do not have any airborne units?

California Tanker
29th March 2003, 20:23
Absolutely none. But it's cool to have 'em.

I'm in two minds about doing Air Assault. They say it's the worst five days in the US Army.. Not sure I'll be allowed go to the school as a tanker though.

NTM

Docman
29th March 2003, 20:39
The course had a number of benefits for me. Firstly, I got to see how soldiers from other countries operated and found that we were all similiar in our methods. Secondly, I proved to myself that I had the ability to do it, which has stood to me ever since in boosting my self confidence. That cannot be understated. The self confidence that you get stays with you in everything you do, and gives you a "get out there and do it" attitude to life.

It also shows civilians that the Dad's Army that they think we are is a misconception. (for the most part).

Groundhog
30th March 2003, 14:26
The course had a number of benefits for me.

Granted but what are the benefits to the army as a whole, given that the point of the army running such courses at public expense is for it's own benefit. That said wouldn't it be more beneficial to form a dedicated airborne battalion (I propose the 12th:D )

Vice Admiral
30th March 2003, 21:23
I got "Perma-grin" after my first jump!

Docman
31st March 2003, 17:20
Originally posted by FMolloy
If they're not going to jump they shouldn't be on the course.

It's only when you are at 2000ft standing in the door of the plane that most people decide not to jump.

Benefits for the army.... there are not many without a dedicated airborne unit. As I said earlier, individual troops have a better attitude, and should we ever get invaded (yeah right), we have an option of dropping troops behind enemy lines on a small unit level.

Bailer
31st March 2003, 17:25
<font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">Drop them in behind enemy lines in What? a Ryanair 737??

A dedicated Airborne Battalion is one aspect that the Irish Army is 60 yeas behind the rest of the world in, I reccomend 1 Infantry company from every Bde be Para trained (PDF and RDF) and also attachments from support units (Assault pioneers, CIS, Medics etc.)

Then again what does a neutral country need with an "Invasion orientated Specialty Unit".

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Loque
31st March 2003, 17:30
Nope, we are a defensive force no real need for it. Still, I want my icecream cone!:D

FMolloy
31st March 2003, 17:38
It's only when you are at 2000ft standing in the door of the plane that most people decide not to jump.

That maybe so, but let them discover this on their own time and at their own expense.

Loque
31st March 2003, 17:45
Pehaps a loaded mp5 pointed at the head would provide sufficient motivation to get over their fear!

Docman
31st March 2003, 17:47
Originally posted by FMolloy


That maybe so, but let them discover this on their own time and at their own expense.

Unfortunately at the moment.... they have to.

Groundhog
31st March 2003, 19:14
Then again what does a neutral country need with an "Invasion orientated Specialty Unit".

Neutral states don't belong to military alliances like the ERRF so we might invade somebody one day:D

I reccomend 1 Infantry company from every Bde be Para trained

Why? It's logistically, administratevly and tactically sounder to have one unit.

Erwin
31st March 2003, 20:46
But we already have a para - trained Unit already,albeit not totally committed to it - ARW!!
The powers that would never sanction another one,especially without the logistics or more important the means of achieving the mission - AIRCRAFT!!I doubt if i'll ever see it in my military career,although it would be nice to see & to get a bat for me Greens!!:)

Groundhog
1st April 2003, 14:30
But we already have a para - trained Unit already,albeit not totally committed to it - ARW!!


The ARW is a small special forces unit not an airborne infantry battalion.

Erwin
1st April 2003, 22:05
I know that,but as far as this goes it's the closest we'll get to one!!

Groundhog
1st April 2003, 23:00
OK so the ARW needs to be para qualified. Until we form an airborne unit nobody else does. It's a pointless exercise. There are loads of gits about with nice shiny wings on their chests who'll never jump out of a plane again. It's a waste of money and resources. Form an airborne unit, buy a couple of Hercs which will be very useful indeed and do para drops 'til the cows come home I say.

Erwin
1st April 2003, 23:11
I agree with you - its pointless running a para course every year & no way in hell to exercise these qualified troops,its just money down the drain which could be better spent on something else in the DF.I would love to see a dedicated airborne unit being set up,but until that happens i don't see the logic in squandering money that could go on matters of more importance.The fact is i'm in a unit with heavy commitments to the PSO & we don't have the kit to carry out the mission,nor will we be capable at the end of the year when we have to be.Its just crazy logic in getting lads to jump out of a plane & they'll never in 95% of the cases do it again in anger/training!! :confused:

Loque
2nd April 2003, 11:33
Erwin, Groundhog, I agree with both of you. The in-house para course is a waste of money
The DF should encourage people to do the dutch course by letting them wear their wings and acknowledging their training, this would save them money. I'd gladly do the dutch course, hell I've often spent over €700 on my pc so I'd have no problem forking out for the dutch course. I'm not prepared however to have my qualification overlooked because I would have jumped out of an atinov and not a casa. I suppose though, that another qualification couldn't hurt if seeking overseas service.

Bailer
2nd April 2003, 11:46
<font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">I know a PDF Driver (he's actalluy gone on his ticket however) who did his jump with the Finnish in Cyprus, while on leave from the LEB he got his Wings and wore them!! now whats the difference??

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Loque
2nd April 2003, 11:57
Bailer, that's a good one!
Did he get permission or did he just stick them on the uniform. I've seen some people wearing foreign medals on the no1's (from previous service in other armies) and medals from the emergency(probably belonging to a father/grandfather) which they were not entitled to wear !

Bailer
2nd April 2003, 12:48
<font face="tahoma" color="#99cc00">No he was Given Irish wings for the Jumps as he did a military Jump with a foreign country while on service overseas (Technically) so he was allowed wear them, he last jumped in kosovo with the yanks in 1999/2000 but kept the same wings</font>

Loque
2nd April 2003, 13:02
Right so all we have to do is pass the dutch course whilst on overseas service....
looks like we have two hopes: no hope and bob hope!
Hmm........ this icecream cone seems like more trouble than it's worth.
Right that's it, I'm going to make my own badge....:p

Bailer
2nd April 2003, 13:33
<font face="veranda" color="99cc00">Hmmm it would look nice on my number ones :)

http://www.irishmilitaryinsignia.com/flash/images/army/miscellaneous/para_metal.gif

Mind you I think the Dutch wings look manky compared to our own simple ones

http://www.irishmilitaryinsignia.com/flash/images/army/miscellaneous/para_green.gif

I'll be adding these as avatars to my new site (with Air corps and ARW variations so you can have your bloody wings and wear them too!!! :D


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bulldemboots!
18th January 2004, 18:48
Anyone know about any Texel (Dutch) military parachute courses being organised this year that Irish are going on cos I really want to do it?

strummer
19th January 2004, 17:19
Originally posted by California Tanker
I'm in two minds about doing Air Assault. They say it's the worst five days in the US Army.. Not sure I'll be allowed go to the school as a tanker though.

Looks like you're in for twice as much fun, Nick. Air Assault school in 10 days long !!!!!:D

California Tanker
19th January 2004, 23:22
Yeah, but they say it gets easier after the first five...

NTM

ex pat 007
20th January 2004, 07:29
air assault school --hey look even legs have wings!!

parkman
20th January 2004, 15:28
There is I believe an award granted by the manufacturer of ejection seats and chutes.It is a caterpiller badge and is awarded to those who have saved their lives by using their product.I think only one such award was ever made in Ireland.It was to a member of the aer corps who left a vampire rather suddently.

California Tanker
21st January 2004, 22:11
If memory serves, it was a twin-seat Vamp, the instructor suggested the trainee vamoose just in case he wasn't able to land the aircraft.

NTM

John
23rd January 2004, 12:54
Originally posted by California Tanker
If memory serves, it was a twin-seat Vamp, the instructor suggested the trainee vamoose just in case he wasn't able to land the aircraft.

NTM

The aircraft was also in a spin...

Docman
23rd January 2004, 13:11
Originally posted by bulldemboots!
Anyone know about any Texel (Dutch) military parachute courses being organised this year that Irish are going on cos I really want to do it?

http://pct.absolutions.nl/
http://www.abmp.freeserve.co.uk/

These are the guys who do the parachuting. The PCT (Para Centrum Texel) is the centre who run the course and the ABMP (Assoc. of British Military Parachutists) are one group who organise group tours to the PCT around may every year.

I'm currently waiting on info from PCT and am planning on heading out there August-ish.

One warning..... The Dutch course is a Recognised Military course but NOT recognised by the DF. You will not get permission to wear your wings when you get back. It is my understanding though that you require an active parachuting licence to get on the Irish course, which the PCT will give you.

Rooster
29th March 2004, 14:08
Anyone know about any Texel (Dutch) military parachute courses being organised this year that Irish are going on cos I really want to do it?

Yeah, I've been told that there are vacancies on the September course, I might try and get some funding from the PTI's so at least then I can argue that I was at a service event!

Trooper
29th March 2004, 14:56
I'd be interested in doing it

Docman
29th March 2004, 15:45
Actually, just got some info this morning.

PCT have informed me that Aug 22 to 26 is free for any group wishing to go. Cost is €300 for round parachutes (Military wings course) and €375 for squares (Also wings cse). (Prices not finalised)

Course lasts 2 days and a further 4 for jumps but you can stay on after that and complete them if you have the time. You have 4 months to complete the jumps without a need for further training and after that you are required to do refresher training to jump.

The wings are awarded for Life (Welcome to the parachuting fraternity) but the licence only last 2 years after which you have to do 1 jump every 2 years to stay active.

NOTE: the wings (while recognised by every other western countries military forces) are not recognised by the DF. (God forbid that baggers get qualifications that the PDF are too lazy to get)

Anyone who saw this months Connect mag will see that those with active licences will get priority on the Irish cse. Of course, by the time you get notification that the Irish cse is on, the closing date has already passed.

Interesting how noone knows when the course is on, there is nothing in the training orders, and when you do find out, it is too late to do anything about it. The Df will probably close down the RDf aspect of the cse next year due to lack of interest. Very clever.

bulldemboots!
29th March 2004, 15:50
Hey Docman. Could you contact me about that please about details etc..

Docman
29th March 2004, 16:05
Only got the details this morning so I will forward them onto you.

DeV
9th May 2004, 15:25
They held a very successful Joint PDF/RDF Advanced Parachuting Course already, Basic Joint Parachuting Courses are to be held in the future

Goldie fish
9th May 2004, 21:47
Considering recent events,There is a good chance that the current course is on hold.

Docman
10th May 2004, 13:06
Originally posted by Brian
They held a very successful Joint PDF/RDF Advanced Parachuting Course already, Basic Joint Parachuting Courses are to be held in the future

Nearly impossible to get on.