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Big Al
21st April 2005, 12:11
The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, on behalf of An Garda Síochána, propose to go to tender in the very near future for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC135 Helicopter with McAlpine (MHL) Police Role Equipment fit. This is not a call for tenders. Further information will be published in the Official Journal in the form of a tender notice in the very near future. NOTE: Further information relating to this notice is available on the eTenders Web Site at http://www.etenders.gov.ie/Search/Search_Switch.aspx?ID=11158

Stinger
21st April 2005, 14:41
Why the EC135 and not the squirel? is it something to do with fleet commonality, namely with the new EC's being purchased by the Aer Corps

DeV
21st April 2005, 17:57
The GASU got a second helicopter in 2001 - a Eurocopter EC135 T1 (serial 256). To be best of my knowledge aircrew are provided by a civilian contractor with Garda observers.

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/airsupportunit.html
http://www.garda.ie/angarda/gasu/eurocopter.html
http://www.irishairpics.com/helicopters/index.html

Is this a third helicopter?

FMolloy
21st April 2005, 18:00
I thought legislation prevented government aircraft from being flown by civillians, therefore the AC had to fly them?

It says a new EC135, so it's either a third heli or a replacement for one of the others (squirrel maybe?)

mavman
21st April 2005, 19:46
Both the squirrell and 135 are flown by air corps pilots, air corps maintain the squirrell and mc alpine, who have a service engineer based at baldonnnel, maintain the 135.

Goldie fish
21st April 2005, 21:44
I bet he's popular..

Interesting the way a decision can be made without a tender....How is this possible,and can it be done for other things?

The plan (in 1997) was to eventually have enough aircraft to cover each of the garda Regions,ie South,West,North,DMA. At the moment an aircraft is spending much of the time In Limerick.

yooklid
21st April 2005, 21:58
Well I know with a lot of gov agencies (and some commercial ones too) that my company deals with, once we pass an initial tender, if they want to buy more of the same crap, they can just send us a PO without us having to jump through eval hoops

Aidan
21st April 2005, 22:06
How is this possible,and can it be done for other things?

We've been through this before Goldie, the state doesn't have to tender for security and military items if it doesn't want to. The EU public procurement specificly allow for this, DOD chose to play by the rules a lot of the time because it gives them a legal template to conduct procurement processes and decisions.

Article 296 of the Treaty sets this out, as do the rules on public procurement, does not require competition in procuring supplies, works and services intended for specifically military purposes and crucial to national security

from

http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/smn/smn35/p29_en.htm

and this is the resulting green paper ...

http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/publicprocurement/dpp_en.htm

Goldie fish
21st April 2005, 22:19
Thanks aidan. One wonders why they bother at all. I'm thinking of the whole S92 fiasco.

Goldie fish
22nd April 2005, 02:36
Looking through the notice,there is no mention of the Dept of Defence or air corps anywhere.

Remember in the past they were seeking civilian pilots to operate the aircraft? Could they have got around the legal difficulties since then?

Bosco
22nd April 2005, 03:20
The plan (in 1997) was to eventually have enough aircraft to cover each of the garda Regions,ie South,West,North,DMA. At the moment an aircraft is spending much of the time In Limerick.

Goldie are you surprised???

Goldie fish
22nd April 2005, 03:25
No...dissapointed they didnt have it there in my day..

Bosco
22nd April 2005, 14:01
ah

FMolloy
24th April 2005, 15:55
According to Don Lavery in today's Sunday Independent, the new heli will replace the Squirrel. He also says Eurocopter wil supply the two LUH's by the end of the year.

Steamy Window
25th April 2005, 10:56
The squirrel only arrived in '97...is it worn out already, or just too expensive to upgrade, or...?

FMolloy
25th April 2005, 13:31
If Lavery's got it right & they're replacing the Squirrel it's probably for the sake of standardisation.

Turkey
25th April 2005, 23:27
I have heard that it is because of standardisation, the squirrel is far from worn out.
Slightly off topic, but the pilots and instructors for the IAC EC-135's have already been picked.



edited for negative spelling ability

FMolloy
25th April 2005, 23:41
So, sell off or trade in the Squirrel to off-set some of the new heli's costs?

Eddie Dillon
25th April 2005, 23:43
Why not keep the squirrel and have a chopper stationed almost permanently around Dublin, Cork and Limerick?

FMolloy
25th April 2005, 23:46
Standardisation, it doesn't make sense to have such variety in a small fleet.

yooklid
26th April 2005, 00:49
Standardisation, it doesn't make sense to have such variety in a small fleet.


Eddie, check out our discussions on this issue here:

http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?t=6031

This says they are doing something right (finally).

-Y

Goldie fish
26th April 2005, 09:53
Standardisation, it doesn't make sense to have such variety in a small fleet.

You are still Looking at 4 otherwise identical aircraft with 2 different engine types. Garda Types using the Turbomeca,while the new Air Corps types will use P&W :frown:

FMolloy
26th April 2005, 13:29
It's still standardised with the other copper chopper. And considering the GS want to get civvies to do all the work....

Goldie fish
26th April 2005, 13:34
Civvies? If they had their way they would have garda pilots(some observers are actually qualified pilots)

gaff85
26th April 2005, 18:49
I dont see a problem with serving members of the Gardai actually operating there own Aircraft. There would be no need for new legislation as they are still members of the security forces.

Eddie Dillon
26th April 2005, 19:06
I don't either but I think it's much better to have AC pilots doing the flying. After all, the pilots are there, the facilities etc are in place and there doesn't seem to be any problems so why change it? It's not as if the AC has a surplus of aircraft and not enough pilots

strummer
26th April 2005, 19:19
They should have contracted civilian pilots fly these aircraft. While it would be nice for some Gardai who have chopper tickets to be the force's "top guns", it would be an admin nightmare. The number of qualified garda pilots is low, certainly not enough to cover all shifts, sick time, leave, etc. And will they be happy receiving Garda pay for this position? Will they want a huge "Pilot Allowance?" Other members will be campaigning to receive flight training on the taxpayers dime. The Garda brass won't have the balls to tell them to get F*cked, because some Asst Commissioner's son may want the job in a few years...(it actually hapened!! They gave him a command position in the ERU instead !!!!).

By letting the operation of the aircraft be the responsibility of a civilian contractor the force can wash its hands of all the nonsense admin and HR issues. They can demand a pilot for whenever they need, and not have to worry about coverage, shifts, sick time, leave, etc. It's all up to the contractor.

From what I've heard, perhaps someone can confirm or deny, it isn't too hard to obtain an observers slot on the Air Support Unit. It's not that popular with the membership and has quite a high turnover. Surprises me, but then again, it wasn't a GASU member who told me, so I never attached much credence to it.


Later.

Goldie fish
26th April 2005, 19:40
Knowing one GASU member,and one Former member,it is very difficult to get into the unit,whose selection process is similar to ERU training. It is tougher to remain though,as fitness must be maintained(helis have a max take off weight) and you have no "return of work".

Draw your own conclusions. The unit expanded greatly in recent years,however intakes are small,while applications are high. The selection process has a high dropout rate. Most young gardai Joined to arrest criminals,not watch them from the sky.

Goldie fish
25th June 2005, 22:52
http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/search_show.aspx?ID=JUN039268

Title: Supply,Delivery of a new Eurocopter EC135 T2 Helicopter with McAlpine(MHL) Police Role Equipment Fit
Awarding Authority: Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform
Publication date: 14-Jun-2005
Application Deadline:
Tender Deadline Date: 09-Aug-2005
Tender Deadline Time: 15:00
Notice Type: Tenders
Has Documents: Yes
Abstract: The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, on behalf of An Garda Síochána, invites tenders for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Single Pilot IFR light helicopter, with full manufacturers warranty and McAlpine (MHL) Police Role Equipment Fit, to the stated specification, and delivery to Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, Co. Dublin, Ireland. The McAlpine Police Role Equipment Fit is the bathtub shaped pod fitted to the underbelly of the aircraft to house part of the role equipment etc. and to allow for a clutter free cabin.

The primary mission will be to provide patrol and response capability in the assistance of operational ground units of An Garda Síochána, the Irish National Police Force. The aircraft will be required to operate by day and by night (subject to visual weather minima), with the broad objective being to seek out and identify the target, establish and maintain visual contract with the target while directing ground units to the scene or to intercept. The expected utilisation of the aircraft will be approx. 800 hours per annum.

The aircraft will operate on the State (Military) Register.








Additional Documents




Description Name Size
RFT for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Helicopter to An Garda Síochána RFT for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Helicopter to An Garda Síochána.doc 739840
Revised RFT for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Helicopter to An Garda Síochán Revised RFT for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Helicopter to An Garda Síochána.doc 739840







( Express an interest in this notice to obtain these documents)
Contact Information




Main Contact: gardaprocurement@justice.ie
Admin Contact: tendergs@iol.ie
Technical Contact: N/a
Other Contact: tendergs@iol.ie







Full Notice Text


I.2) Address from which further information can be obtained
As in I.1 If different, see Annex A
I.3) Address from which documentation may be obtained
As in I.1 If different, see Annex A
I.4) Address to which Tenders/Requests to participate must be sent
As in I.1 If different, see Annex A
I.5) Type of contracting Authority
Central Level EU Institution Other
Regional/local Level Body governed by public law

Section II: Object of the Contract
II.1) Description
II.1.1) Type of works contract
II.1.2) Type of supplies contract
Purchase Rent Lease
Hire-purchase Combination of these

II.1.3) Type of service contract
II.1.4) Is it a framework agreement
No
II.1.5) Title attributed to the contract by the contracting authority
Supply,Delivery of a new Eurocopter EC135 T2 Helicopter with McAlpine(MHL) Police Role Equipment Fit
II.1.6) Description/object of the contract
The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, on behalf of An Garda Síochána, invites tenders for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Single Pilot IFR light helicopter, with full manufacturers warranty and McAlpine (MHL) Police Role Equipment Fit, to the stated specification, and delivery to Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, Co. Dublin, Ireland. The McAlpine Police Role Equipment Fit is the bathtub shaped pod fitted to the underbelly of the aircraft to house part of the role equipment etc. and to allow for a clutter free cabin.


The primary mission will be to provide patrol and response capability in the assistance of operational ground units of An Garda Síochána, the Irish National Police Force. The aircraft will be required to operate by day and by night (subject to visual weather minima), with the broad objective being to seek out and identify the target, establish and maintain visual contract with the target while directing ground units to the scene or to intercept. The expected utilisation of the aircraft will be approx. 800 hours per annum.


The aircraft will operate on the State (Military) Register.



NOTE: Further information relating to this notice is available on the eTenders Web Site at http://www.etenders.gov.ie/Search/Search_Switch.aspx?ID=12588.

II.1.7) Site or location of works, place of delivery or performance
Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, Co. Dublin, Ireland.

NUTS Code IE021
II.1.8) Nomenclature
II.1.8.1) Common Procurement Vocabulary (CPV)
Main vocabulary Supplementary vocabulary (when applicable)
Main object 35312000
Additional objects
32323000
32522000
29812300
32333000
35351000

II.1.8.2) Other relevant nomenclature (CPA/CPC)
II.1.9) Division into lots
No
II.1.10) Will variants be accepted
No
II.2) Quantity or Scope of the Contract
II.2.1) Total quantity or scope

II.2.2) Options. Description and time when they may be exercised

II.3) Duration of the contract or limit for completion
Section III: Legal, Economic, Financial and Technical Information
III.1) Conditions Relating to the Contract
III.1.1) Deposits and guarantees required

III.1.2) Main Terms of financing and payment and/or reference to the relevant provisions
Payment for the supply and delivery of the aircraft, covered by this invitation to tender will be in accordance with the Prompt Payment of Accounts Act, 1997. All invoices must be submitted in Euro (€) and accompanied by a signed and stamped verification docket. Invoicing arrangements will be agreed with the successful supplier following the award of contract. The successful tenderer will be obliged to pay sub-contractors in accordance with the Prompt Payment of Accounts Act, 1997.

III.1.3) Legal form to be taken by the grouping of suppliers, contractors or service providers to who legal contract is awarded

III.2) Conditions for Participation
III.2.1) General Conditions
Please see RFT

III.2.1.1) Legal Position - means of proof required
III.2.1.2) Economic and Financial Capacity- means of proof required
III.2.1.3) Technical Capacity- means of proof required
Section IV: Procedure
IV.1) Type of Procedure

Open Accelerated Restricted
Restricted Accelerated Negotiated
Negotiated

IV.1.1) Have candidates already been selected?
No
IV.1.2) Justification for the choice of accelerated procedure
IV.1.3) Previous publication concerning the same contract
IV.1.3.1) Prior information notice concerning the same contract
Notice Number 2005/S 79-076400 of 22-04-2005
IV.1.3.2) Other previous publications
IV.1.4) Envisaged number of suppliers which will be invited to tender
IV.2) Award Criteria
A) Lowest Price No

B) The most economically advantageous tender in terms of:

B1) Criteria as stated below Yes
1 - Technical & Operational Specification and Merit
2 - Cost
3 - Role Equipment Technical & Operational Specification and Merit
4 - Product and Technical Support
5 - Warranties

In descending order of priority: Yes

B2) Criteria as stated in contract documents: No

IV.3 Administrative Information
IV.3.1) Reference number attributed to the notice by the contracting authority
T.184/2005
IV.3.2) Conditions for obtaining contract document and additional documents
Obtainable until

Price (where applicable) Currency

Terms and method of payment

IV.3.3) Time-limit for receipt of tenders or requests to participate
19-07-2005 Time (when applicable) 15:00
IV.3.4) Dispatch of invitations to tender to selected candidates
Estimated date

IV.3.5) Language or languages in which tenders or requests to participate can be drawn up
EN

IV.3.6) Minimum time frame during which the tenderer must maintain its tender
Until 16-11-2005
IV.3.7) Conditions for opening tenders
IV.3.7.1) Persons authorised to be present at the opening of tenders (where applicable)

Tenders will be opened in the presence of at least three people. Persons authorised to be present at the opening of tenders will be determined by the contracting authority.
IV.3.7.2) Date, time and place

Date Time
Place

Section VI: Other Information
VI.1) Is this notice a Non Mandatory one?
No
VI.2) Indicate Whether this Procurement is a Recurrent one and the Estimated Timing for Further Notices to be Published

VI.3) Does the contract relate to a Project/Programme financed by EU Funds?
No

If yes, indicate the project/programme and any useful reference


VI.4) Additional Information

(ET Ref:12588)

VI.5) Dispatch date of this Notice
14-06-2005


Further Information
Information added to the notice since publication.





14-Jun-2005 RFT for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Helicopter to An Garda Síochána
Request for Tender for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Helicopter to An Garda Síochána.

14-Jun Submission Deadline/Application Deadline Date(s) Changed
The Deadline date was changed from 19-Jul-2005 to 9-August-2005.
In correct date on Tender document

15-Jun-2005 RFT for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Helicopter to An Garda Síochána
Revised RFT for the supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Helicopter to An Garda Síochána. Change of final date for receipt of queries to 26th July, 2005. Change of final date for receipt of tender proposals to 9th August, 2005.

Goldie fish
5th July 2005, 22:13
They still have not decided whether the new machine wil replace the squirrell or whether it will operate alongside it.

Goldie fish
17th November 2005, 01:41
They still have not decided whether the new machine wil replace the squirrell or whether it will operate alongside it.

The decision was made. 255 will be replaced by a second EC135T2, provided(hopefully before the end of the year) by Mc Alpine. Parts commonality was the main reason, combined by the poor safety record of the type (255)in service in the UK. Quite a few of them have fallen out of the sky, and ours almost did.

Vmax
18th November 2005, 13:38
The decision was made. 255 will be replaced by a second EC135T2, provided(hopefully before the end of the year) by Mc Alpine. Parts commonality was the main reason, combined by the poor safety record of the type (255)in service in the UK. Quite a few of them have fallen out of the sky, and ours almost did.


Poor safety record???????.Care to elaborate on.

DeV
18th November 2005, 14:02
Poor safety record???????.Care to elaborate on.

Situation involving GASU AS355N
http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=3977&lang=ENG&loc=1280

Air International has identified weight problems with the AS355N as much of the equipment is fixed, whereas the much of the EC135's role equipment is fitted in a removeable pod.

Also not all parts of the EC135T1 and EC135T2 are compatiale, they have different engines.

pym
18th November 2005, 14:39
Situation involving GASU AS355N
http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=3977&lang=ENG&loc=1280

Air International has identified weight problems with the AS355N as much of the equipment is fixed, whereas the much of the EC135's role equipment is fitted in a removeable pod.

Also not all parts of the EC135T1 and EC135T2 are compatiale, they have different engines.

Did I not read that the existing T1 has already been upgraded to T2?

Vmax
18th November 2005, 14:58
Situation involving GASU AS355N
http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=3977&lang=ENG&loc=1280

Air International has identified weight problems with the AS355N as much of the equipment is fixed, whereas the much of the EC135's role equipment is fitted in a removeable pod.

Also not all parts of the EC135T1 and EC135T2 are compatiale, they have different engines.


Dev,

As i understand it the current 135 operated by the GASU has been upgraded to a T2.The incident quoted above was pilot error, nothing to do with the safety record of the heli type.

Goldie fish
18th November 2005, 21:03
If you read that report it mentions the large amount of accidents involving the type that year. Not specifically with the GASU. I recall a high profile Rally Driver was killed in one also not long ago. The Guy who bought L.E Deirdre was also Killed while flying in one...

Vmax
18th November 2005, 23:18
Goldie,

The reason I asked you to elaborate was the last part of your previous thread was quite sweeping.The impression I got from it was that the particular type of heli had safety problems.Bertie Fisher flew the single engined type AS 350.What happened to him was the same as what happened to S 255,they both flew into cloud by mistake.Sadly Mr Fisher and some members of his family lost their lives.Both these aircaft were mechanically sound. You will find that approx 85% of aircraft accidents are down to pilot error.

Goldie fish
18th November 2005, 23:31
I suggest that rather than blaming me for my opinion, you read the 255 incident report on AAIU website.

Its not my opinion, it is that of the Investigators of the Irish Aviation Authority.
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/3977-0.pdf


A recent UK AAIB survey shows that since 1985 they investigated some 19 accidents and incidents involving AS 355 helicopters, five of which were totally destroyed.
Hardly a good safety record?

yellowjacket
19th November 2005, 00:53
Hardly a good safety record?

Compared to what, how does it compare to the numbers of Squirrels in circulation? What are accident levels for R22 and Jetrangers like comparitively?

Vmax
19th November 2005, 00:54
Goldie,
I am not blaming you for your opinion or anything else for that matter.The reasons you give for the purchase of the second 135 are "parts commonality was the main reason combined with the AS 355's poor safety record in the uk". You seem to be missing the point.I have read the AAIU report regardig S 255,I have also read the uk AAIB reports.These include N models,F1 models,F2 models.Out of the sixteen accident reports four were caused by mechical failures,most on F models,the remaining TWELVE accidents WHICH INCLUDED FATALITIES were caused by pilot error.

Goldie fish
19th November 2005, 14:02
Parts commonality with the existing EC135T2. It will make the eventual handover of GASU ops to Non Air Corps operators a lot easier when only one type is in use. The Other issue which contributed to the Squirrels safety record was that of night flying. Having read the reports you will know this already, but Pilot training was always a weak area in the GASU, as there was no aircraft to train on. The squirrel, being the only one of type, already had a high workload, and time spent on pilot training was at best, minimal.
Given the current situation where the Air Corps now operate the EC135P2, and the future situation where the GASU will operate 2 EC135T2, the transition from other air Corps aircraft will be a much simpler process, as will keeping pilots qualified on the type.
As for Pilot error, it is a phrase often used when the controls of an aircraft worked against the pilot. It is also often used to pass off blame where the real cause is at a much higher level, i.e the aircraft was not suitable for the task it was intended for, in spite of the manufactuer stating otherwise, to ensure sales.

strummer
19th November 2005, 15:19
Standardisation of aircraft types between Aer Corps and GASU? Eventual hand-off of GASU pilot operations to non-Aer Corps personnel?

Look out for certain "soon to be retiring" or "just retired" politically connected officers starting a small law enforcement flight operations company or else landing senior management jobs with an already well established one.

Cynical? Never !!!


Later.

Vmax
19th November 2005, 18:26
Coldie,

The parts commonality makes alot of sence, If you are suggesting operations been handed over to civies as well as the engineering end of things, thats a long way down the road I would think. The current 135 which sat in the UK for over a year was suppose to go on the civil register when purchased,that didn't happen due to certification problems with some of the equipment on board, so it ended up with a military number,I can't see that been changed. Lets see what reg either civil or mil will be on the new GASU 135.That will show you what way the powers that be are thinking in relation to this issue. In relation to the AS 355 not been up to the task for police work, I think its record speaks for itself.The GASU AS355 has been with the unit since 1998 flying according to the AAIU 1000 hours a year, thats twice the average commercial helis in Ireland fly. I say again pilot error been the reason for the report, although he did a good job getting himself out of that dangerous situation,others haven't been so lucky. The seventeen or so reports issued by independant investigators both here and in the UK (not influenced by manufacturers sales i might add) in relation to the AS 355 only three were about the "N" model, one was a mechanical problem(faulty luggage compartment door) the other two pilot error which included a fatality.
It's all there in black and white for people to read.Pilot error in these reports covers alot of things from heavy landings, to landing down wind, to settling with power, to been above MAUW, to hitting overhead power cables, to flying into cloud.

squigs
30th December 2005, 13:28
aside from all your theories surrounding future utilisation of the squirrel i have one. Am i right in saying the allouette(maby spelt wrong) is f***ed or will be shortly? the gazelle to maby? would it be possible for the squirrel to be stripped of its GASU colours and used to train heli pilots in Baldonnel? Im well aware of the of the recent arrival of the EC135's in case they are using them for training. i just thought that they might be better shall we say "combat ready"(aka S&R, army support).....any comments or has this subject already been and gone??

The Blue Max
30th December 2005, 15:14
Personally i would love top see the Squirrel being transfered to 302sqn to operate alongside the Eurocopter EC-135P2 utilizing the AS350 Squirell in the RISTA role (aswell capable on the EC135s) supporting Army Ground Elements providing Army Commanders in HQ with up to date intelligence of the battlefield or there Area Of Operations (AO) it be a great asset for training personnel in Kosovo like situations riot training while operating at night time with airborne C2 assets as well as under helicopter Searchlights the squirell are equiped with FLIR thermal imaging pod,TV camera package (mounted under the machine noise, NightSun Searchlight aswell as being able to be a airborne communications relay point (probly would be have to be have to retro-fitted for SINGARS)

It is also capable of carrying Armed Interdiction Teams (as dsiplayed on many occasions by Four Man Teams of the Emergancy Response Unit (ERU) so it would be easily capable of Carrying equivilant members of the ARW or insert other Army Recce Units Teams i.e Cav or Infantry etc.. As listed above are some of the tasks the helicopter could preform in the Army Support role and thats why i would leave to new modern EC-135s to train/refresh the new and current pilots utilizing it for traing aswell as it for it other alloted tasks but i have to say its great to see reasonable taught being put into the future use of such a still excellent helicopter such as the Squirrel!!!!

Oh by the way Failte go dtí an bord Squigs

Silver
30th December 2005, 20:03
Nice idea, however I can't see it happening.

Why? Because the AC are trying to achieve fleet commonality and by adding the Squirrel this would leave them with 3 types of helis rather than two (i.e. EC-135 and AB139 - when A3's are gone).

squigs
1st January 2006, 14:39
go raibh matih agat chun failte "an max gorm". Yes this standardisation business....i suppose i understand it, with the standard aircraft only needing engineers with the standard training, basically money saved in the long term. But do the aer corp not already have personnel trained on this aircraft? Just because this idea is not "uniform" and fitting in with the "streamlined" standardisation does not mean it should be over looked. Perhaps there are still alot of factors i have over looked, so im open to argument although i think there was no need to even request that!! :tongue: ha

FMolloy
1st January 2006, 15:29
I'd say the Dept. of Justice would have a problem with your idea Squigs, seeing as how they bought the aircraft for Garda use.

squigs
1st January 2006, 17:01
damn you....i knew somone would catch me! :tongue: sure ask willie o to have a word with them...the unmarked cars seem to move faster than the actual helicopters....they dont need them!!...but seriously, would there be alot of hassel in changing its role? I'm not familiar with the proceedure.......

FMolloy
1st January 2006, 19:22
Why would the DoJ part with expensive & useful aircraft that they bought for Garda use?

squigs
4th January 2006, 00:27
They still have not decided whether the new machine wil replace the squirrell or whether it will operate alongside it.

this is the information on which i based my idea.....just a POSSIBLE idea

Goldie fish
4th January 2006, 06:34
Your last post makes no sense.

squigs
4th January 2006, 16:37
what i meant to say was that when i read your thread i picked up (maby i was wrong) that the squirrel would be replaced (possibly) meaning it would be no longer in use by GASU. Then i just thought of a little idea for it IF it was no longer in use.

FMolloy
4th January 2006, 19:21
If they decide to get rid of the squirrel it'll be sold off, not given away.

Snacker
4th January 2006, 20:08
Is it Department of Defence property or that of the Department of Justice?

FMolloy
4th January 2006, 20:10
It belongs to the Gardai, it's merely operated by the Air Corp.

squigs
4th January 2006, 20:41
i wouldnt call operating the aircraft a "mere" task.....isnt it stationed, operated and maintained by the AC?....what do the guards do?...look out its windows/IR cameras(i even doubt that)??.......i hope they pay the AC handsomely for this facility...

Goldie fish
4th January 2006, 22:59
The Garda heli has assisted in the prevention of many crimes, and assisted in the capture of many criminals since its introduction in 1997.
The Dept of Justice, are quite happy with its service, otherwise they wouldnt have added a second heli to the fleet. Please reserve your flippant remarks for something you know something about.
In the meantime, use the search function, read about things, build up your knowlege of matters relating to Police aviation in Ireland, the training of its crews,and the operation of its aircraft.

All this information is already available here.

Bosco
4th January 2006, 23:49
Question for ye do you think they will ever do what they planned and eventually all districts(i.e 1 for each of the provences and Dublin & 1 Apache for Limerick?) will have a garda chopper resource or or is that overkill.
Jsut going on an older post.

Goldie fish
5th January 2006, 00:14
Eventually. There was a time when only the Big towns had a patrol car, Nowdays every village station has access to one even when there are only 2 gardai stationed there. Mobility is everything, and the GS have realised you cant be everywhere at once. However the Heli does have the advantage of letting the potential criminal think you are watching him. The deterrant value of every heli is impossible to quantify. I would expect to see them being dispersed per Region, in line with the Garda command structure. Though the DMA and South would need to poach those from other regions, due to the Concentration of Population, and crime in those areas.
I would rule out an apache for limerick though. There are already too many cowboys there, not safe for indians.

Bosco
5th January 2006, 00:18
Ah shucks was hoping to see d'island get a shot up(Well more than usual).

Spook
5th January 2006, 00:51
Perhaps co locate with the coast guard heli's...both need 24 hr facilities..atc,fuel,fire services. :frown:

Slacker
5th January 2006, 01:20
What about one of these for limerick? :biggrin:

http://www.waffenhq.de/flugzeuge/mi24-04.jpg

FMolloy
5th January 2006, 01:50
I never said it was a 'mere' task, I said they merely operated it - there's a difference.

squigs
5th January 2006, 01:54
one of these would probably be the safer option....

squigs
5th January 2006, 02:25
ok FMolloy, im not an english teacher so il take your word for it. :tongue: now will you moderate my msg??am i like a bad boy on this site? im not leaving....i only found this site and i love this stuff especially when its in relation to Irish aviation...... although id say you can ignore me.....i think we got off on the wrong foot...you caught me on a bad day lets say...

gaff85
14th February 2006, 16:42
Any dates on when this is actually to arrive?

spike
24th June 2006, 11:52
The cops were in Germany some time in may when Eurocopter were handing their new overweight 135 to McAlpine. They hope to have it by the end of the year. Speaking of McAlpine tech support for the cops, one of their reps is leaving and their is some doubt about who will maintain the garda 135's in the future. strongest rumour is that the air corps will get it

Panzer Joe
10th February 2007, 00:03
For all you aircraft buffs out there, I include profiles of the 3 Garda Aircraft.

GoneToTheCanner
10th February 2007, 07:27
Hi Panzer Joe,
Should they now break away and form the "Aer Forsa an Gharda Siochana"? I think so.
regards
GttC

Jetjock
11th February 2007, 04:36
GTTC,

Any word on the new EC 135? Taking a long time to deliver? Is it the P2 version and does it have the Air Corps EC135 engine types?

rightseat
11th February 2007, 20:45
Quick question...and a little off topic but

Garda air support unit...are the pilots air corp or private or garda?

GoneToTheCanner
11th February 2007, 23:05
Hi there
nip over to Frank Grealish's Irishairpics for all the answers. The engines are the same.The pilots are Air Corps.
regards
GttC

old rec
1st March 2007, 23:17
Hi all,
Spotted the new Garda 135 today at Oxford airport. It was being towed into McAlpines hanger. I'm afraid to say it had no rotors, no interior, or doors fitted. Anyone know what tail number she will get?

Goldie fish
1st March 2007, 23:19
There are spare numbers in the sequence....
Were 268 or 269 reserved?

Jetjock
2nd March 2007, 02:33
Yeah Goldie but I think they were for any attrition PC-9's that may be required.

Liachta Cultaca
2nd March 2007, 12:22
Didnt realise the Gardai had ordered a 3rd Helicopter?

Is this true?

Is it another Eurocopter EC135?

Goldie fish
2nd March 2007, 20:03
Yeah, Hold on while I merge...


(goldie merges)

flyinginireland
5th March 2007, 21:00
The Garda Síochána currently operate two helicopters as part of the Garda Air Support Unit (GASU). These are an AS355N Squirrel Helicopter (operational since 1997) and an EC 135 Helicopter (operational since Feb. 2003). The decision to purchase the original EC 135 helicopter was made following a tender competition which allowed the Gardaí choose from amongst competing suppliers for the product which best met their technical requirements rather than standardisation with either their existing helicopter or indeed the Air Corps fleet.

In February 2005 the Garda Síochána sought approval to replace the Squirrel Helicopter with a second EC135, based on a number of factors, in particular, commonality of aircraft type, general arrangements in helicopter management, personnel training, maintenance, auto-pilot facility, optimum resale period, etc.

A Prior Indicative Notice (PIN) alerting the market that the Garda Síochána intended to acquire a new EC 135 T2 Helicopter was published in the Official Journal of the EU on the 21st April, 2005 and an RFT for the "supply and delivery of a new Eurocopter EC 135 T2 Helicopter with McAlpine (MHL) Police Role Equipment Fit to An Garda Síochána" was placed on the e-tenders website on Tuesday 14th June with a closing date for receipt of tenders of 9th August.

Following the completion of the tendering process the contract was awarded to McAlpines Helicopters Ltd., As part of the payment schedule for the purchase of the helicopter a down payment was made to McAlpine Helicopters Ltd before the end of 2005. A supplementary estimate was introduced by the Minister for 2005 specifically for this purpose. In the 2006 estimates €5.9m was reserved for the purchase of the EC135 and at that stage it was anticipated that the it would be delivered to the Garda Air Support Unit by the end of 2006. Construction of the aircraft took place at the Eurocopter manufacturing factory in Donnauworth in Germany and the new helicopter which is c/n 478 left the Eurocopter facility on the 4th May bound for the McAlpine Helicopter Ltd. facility in Oxford where the fitting out of the Police Role Equipment is taking place.

She is currently registered G-CECT and due to become ‘272’ in Air corps service. The two existing Air Corps EC-135s are 270’ (c/n 0431). and ‘271’ (c/n 0425). Originally the the first two AW139s were expected to become '272' and '273' but '272' was reserved for the GASU EC-135 and '273' has been reserved for a possible future EC-135 either for the Air Corps or GAZU. 274’ (c/n 31048), and ‘275’ (c/n 31059) are the recently delivered AW139s with '276' and 277 being the next two due around April.

The GAZU EC-135 due at the end of 2006 is not now expected until May and the existing Squirrel will be sold off when she becomes operational. In fitting out the EC-135 the Garda Síochána has decided to take the opportunity to avail of the latest technology versions of equipment which are only becoming available from suppliers for Police Helicopters. These factors have resulted in a delay in delivery. However, a subsequent retrofit would cause considerable operational down time and expense should the opportunities not have been availed of at this time.

Information from Flying in Ireland Editorial Team
THE source for Military news.

SARMAN
9th May 2007, 09:15
Is that true that they will be selling off the Squirrel? Is it single or twin?

easyrider
31st December 2007, 14:12
Read in Air Forces Monthly that the second GASU EC135 was delivered to Baldonnell in November. Seems the Garda versions have different engines to the Air Corps ones - any know why?

FMolloy
31st December 2007, 14:22
Seems the Garda versions have different engines to the Air Corps ones - any know why?

I'd say it's because the Air Corp had no input into the decision making process and the Garda authorities aren't concerned with parts commonality.

Goldie fish
31st December 2007, 15:00
The first EC135 used by the GASU had a T1 engine, it was later upgraded to T2. The Gardai Bought their second EC135 long before the Army decided to buy their P2 models(2005). They stuck with the T2 for parts commonality between the Garda Fleet.

pmtts
31st December 2007, 15:13
She is currently registered G-CECT and due to become ‘272’ in Air corps service.

Still registered to EUROCOPTER UK LTD according to the CAA.

golden rivet
31st December 2007, 15:48
do aer corp pilots fly them. and how does this work out.. ie.. aid to civil power.. week on week off etc..

Goldie fish
31st December 2007, 15:58
Careful GR... pedants are about.
The aircraft are flown by Air Corps Pilot with a garda crew of 2 observers.

FMolloy
31st December 2007, 16:29
The GASU aircraft are available 24 hours a day, how they roster the staff is operational info & won't be discussed here.

golden rivet
31st December 2007, 20:02
The GASU aircraft are available 24 hours a day, how they roster the staff is operational info & won't be discussed here. funny you say that the programme on rte gave more info did you see it???

Tony Kearns
31st December 2007, 20:24
[QUOTE=Goldie fish;190437]The Gardai Bought their second EC135 long before the Army decided to buy their P2 models(2005).
Thought that it was the Air Corps who operated them.

GoneToTheCanner
31st December 2007, 21:53
Hi there
I doubt if the Garda Commissioner actually gives a flying .... what's under the bonnet as long as it stays running, responds to the push of a button and is available...in a lot of cases, engine sub-models differ only by the accessories, ie, genes, pumps and so on, attached to them.the basic core of the engine is probably the same so there would be a high degree of commonality.The gardai are more concerned about their dedicated equipment on board than anything else.It could be in a Transit van for all they really care, as long as it flies on demand.
regards
GttC

Goldie fish
31st December 2007, 22:41
Thing is GTTC, Air Corps EC135s are powered by P&W engines, while GASU models are Turbomeca.

GoneToTheCanner
1st January 2008, 07:06
Well then, as per, I stand corrected.begs the question, which engine is better? Was the old P and W not up to snuff for heavy lifting?
regards
GttC

easyrider
1st January 2008, 13:11
Wouldn't you think if there's only going to be four of them altogether operated out of Baldonnell it would make more sense to have the four the same, even if there is some little plus one way or another for the different engines?

Tadpole
1st January 2008, 15:18
Also differences in how the aircraft are operated by the pilot due to sutble but important differences in the FADEC systems.
The Air Corps assessed the PW to be better and the Garda assessed the TM to be better and never the twain shall meet.

pym
1st January 2008, 17:17
are the garda helicopters still serviced by a different (privately contracted) tech crew?

easyrider
1st January 2008, 17:28
So even though the Garda helicopters are flown by Air Corps pilots, someone in the Gardai knows more about which helicopter engine is best than the Air Corps? And do Air Corps pilots have to train separately for the GASU EC135s, seeing as there are different engine controls? Sounds like someone should have banged some heads together long ago and saved a lot of time and money.

Goldie fish
1st January 2008, 17:34
The GASU machines should never have been the responsibility of the Air Corps. I don't think it makes any difference if they have different engines, because ultimately the Garda Siochana should have them operated independantly of the Air Corps, with their own Pilots.
The only advantage is the aircraft can operate from a secure base, though with the increased airside security found in the larger airports in Ireland, I don't think this advantage is unique to the don any more.

Remember the Gardai and the Air Corps have completely different requirements for their aircraft, and their usage. A "Jack of all trades" wouldnt work, in the same way as Giving the Gardai Eithne to use as the Garda boat would be less than successful.

FMolloy
1st January 2008, 17:59
funny you say that the programme on rte gave more info did you see it???

I couldn't give a monkey's what was said on RTE, we're not discussing operational info & that's that.

GoneToTheCanner
1st January 2008, 20:44
Hi there
FMs point about garda flight/crewing rosters is, naturally, a secret for obvious reasons.The maintenance is carried out by civil contractors, which is not a secret.Bear in mind that UK police helicopters and aircraft have been attacked and damaged at their supposedly secure bases.The crims have a vested interest in having the choppers grounded, either by direct action or even by bad weather.
regards
GttC

pmtts
1st January 2008, 20:54
Bear in mind that UK police helicopters and aircraft have been attacked and damaged at their supposedly secure bases.The crims have a vested interest in having the choppers grounded, either by direct action or even by bad weather.
regards
GttC

Really? When was that!. I have a vested interest in Police affiars but cannot recall any such incidents. If you have any links etc, i'd be glad to read them.

A/TEL
1st January 2008, 21:04
Any pictures of 272???

pmtts
1st January 2008, 21:12
this is it, I think! under a German tail registration.

http://www.eurocopter.com/publications/img_wsw//EC135_IrishAirCorps-web.jpg

http://www.eurocopter.com/publications/FO/scripts/newsFO_complet.php?lang=EN&news_id=337

A/TEL
1st January 2008, 21:19
this is it, I think! under a German tail registration.

http://www.eurocopter.com/publications/img_wsw//EC135_IrishAirCorps-web.jpg

http://www.eurocopter.com/publications/FO/scripts/newsFO_complet.php?lang=EN&news_id=337



Thanks for that, any pics of her since she arrived in Bal?

CTU
1st January 2008, 21:39
No I think that was one of the Air Corps EC135s (270/271)

The GASU one probably looks like the one below except with 272 on it
http://www.irishairpics.com/aircorps/gallery/plane_details.php?q=1023708

Tadpole
2nd January 2008, 01:06
Hi Goldie,
The main reason that the Gardai do not have civiy pilots is because a lot of their operations are prohibited under current Irish legislation. The UK police operate under a completely seperate Police Air Operations Manual. Im sure it could be legalised here but its probably just easier to let the Donners do it.
The second reason is the prohibitive cost. At least an extra half mil for pilots for ONE 24hr helicopter. Thats an extra 1 mil per year if both go 24hr to do exactly what they are doing now, the cops aint stupid.

GoneToTheCanner
2nd January 2008, 18:44
Hi there
The incidents were detailed in the UK aviation monthly magazines such as Pilot/Flyer/Today's Pilot....on one occasion, a gang attacked a helicopter with axes and sledgehammers and targeted specific points of the aircraft; ie, they had been told exactly where to aim their strikes.
regards
GttC

pmtts
2nd January 2008, 19:32
Hi there
The incidents were detailed in the UK aviation monthly magazines such as Pilot/Flyer/Today's Pilot....on one occasion, a gang attacked a helicopter with axes and sledgehammers and targeted specific points of the aircraft; ie, they had been told exactly where to aim their strikes.
regards
GttC

Cheers for that GTTC

Fouga
8th January 2008, 22:45
this is it, I think! under a German tail registration.

http://www.eurocopter.com/publications/img_wsw//EC135_IrishAirCorps-web.jpg



No thats one of The Air Crops CE135's, the GREEN paint should have given that away.... 272 was based over in the UK ( McAlpine i think ) for over a year in Garda colours on an Airfield, there was a pic of her like that floating around on the net..

[Mod: So Fouga, tell me about these new fangled Air Crops we have, and their "CE"135s.....]

Goldie fish
15th January 2008, 20:35
272 was unveiled to the media at Garda HQ today.


New garda helicopter unveiled
2 hours ago

The latest garda crime fighting weapon has been unveiled with the launch of the Air Support Unit's new state-of-the-art helicopter.

The 7.5 million euro EC 135 is fitted with hi-tec equipment and will provide 24-hour support to officers involved in major crime investigations, public order incidents, traffic control and search and rescue operations.

The Air Support Unit's three aircraft are piloted by Air Corps personnel and carry crews of special aerial-trained garda


http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0115/1news_av.html?2325937,null,230

easyrider
16th January 2008, 00:20
272 was unveiled to the media at Garda HQ today.



http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0115/1news_av.html?2325937,null,230


It only cost €5.5 million on ireland.com....


Last Updated: 15/01/2008 13:00
Second Garda helicopter takes to air

The Garda Siochána Air Support Unit's second helicopter was officially unveiled today today.

Minister for Justice Brian Lenihan officially launched the €5.5 million Eurocopter EC135 with Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy at Garda Headquarters in Dublin.......

© 2008 ireland.com

FMolloy
4th October 2008, 15:12
Had a chat with a member of the ASU yesterday. He was going through the differences between the two helis, there's some slight differences in kit I won't talk about. One difference I can mention is the dog boxes in the rear of the aircraft. Now the new heli can transport the dog unit without getting hairs everywhere.

meat bomb
4th October 2008, 16:45
The newer one can also read your mind from two thousand feet, three and a half miles away but dont tell anyone ...