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Silver
29th May 2005, 17:35
There is an interesting debate taking place over on Keypublishing's 'Historic Aviation' forum about Ireland's 'secret' airfield's during WWII, and the assistance we gave to the RAF and USAF, etc.

Most UK contributors maintain that we did nothing to help the alies !

Click Here (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=43393)

yellowjacket
29th May 2005, 18:28
"Most UK contributors" (couple of posters on a fairly sparse thread) clearly don't know much about much.

Was listening to a radio documentary late the other night about the efforts of Irish diplomats and religious to assist escaping allied POWs in Italy. Seems they helped about 4000 escape. Stories mentioned including secretly bringing an injured escaped POW to hospital in an Irish diplomatic car.

http://www.catholicireland.net/pages/index.php?nd=68&art=490

Gunner Who?
30th May 2005, 02:12
I have always had an interest in this subject but have not done anything about it for years.
I am convinced there were secret links between the British and Irish Govt.s both formal and informal.

Food supply to England was valuable.

Weather reports from the West were valuable.

Flying boats from Lough Erne were permitted to fly out over Sligo/Donegal to the Atlantic thus increasing range over the ocean.

A very large number of ppl in the BA etc gave their next of kin addy as being in the ROI.

Navigation markers sea and air viewable were valuable.

Mil. Int. was exchanged.

Still can't make head nor tail of why the ports were handed over in 1938 when war was widely predicted.

Heard a story of aircraft and crews being exchanged at the border and pertol/av fuel being given in exchange.

Spoke first hand to an Irish RSM who was in a work party that went to the border to receive 25pr towed field guns complete with towers (Quads and 6wheelers)

I think (without any substantial evidence)that the British gave/sold arms to the Irish in order to have the backdoor, which Ireland was,guarded.

Robert Kisk's book "In Time of War" went some way to throw some light on the subject but much still to come out I think.

Slacker
30th May 2005, 11:27
Did I not hear of an Irish Naval vessel being at Dunkirk? I was sure I heard Derek Davis on about it ages ago....

Steamy Window
30th May 2005, 11:40
It was an MTB which was just about to be delivered to us, and went over to Dunkirk, following which it headed over to Cork afaik

JAG
30th May 2005, 12:32
Seriously.

A battalion commander during "The Emergency" proclaimed after the end of WW2 that his battalion was not properly trained until 1944. By which time the need for an Irish army to defend against the German's had disspiated entirely. The Irish army at it's height was about 100,000 badly trained & equipped men. As compared to the 50,000 off who joined the British Army, and all those who went over to the UK to work and take the place of those who had been drafted.

The Irish air corps had a few Spitifires & Hurricanes during WW2. It wasn't as if the USAF or the RAF had much to worry about in military threat terms by crossing Irish airsace- I would say allied expediency had more to do with having passage over Irish airspace than Irish well-wishing. They don't have radar coverage now, so I highly doubt the DF has radar cover in 1939-45.

DeValera was offered Northern Ireland in exchange for a co-operation effort with the Allies. He refused. What does this tell you about the extent of Irish/Allied co-operation?

Irish intelligence had too few, too poor quality DF sets to have much of an impact on German agents, though they did capture some men & equipment. Eventually.

Secret airfields? Was one of those at Abbeyshrule, perchance?

Some of the Irish military leaders were pro British. Others were very definitely pro-German. Any co-operation given was informal, with Irish officers and officials working for UK intelligence as spooks- ideological spooks who happened to be on the right side of histroy, but spies spying against their own people nonetheless. Aside from anything else, official co-operation would have resulted in the information being passed almost directly to the Germans, because of the aforementioned pro-German elements in Irish officialdom.

So the "help" we gave the Allies was the same asthe "help" Sweden gave the Germans. We didn't have a choice in the matter, and got some good out of the situation. Where else were we going to export our food (or send our unemployed to fight)? Occupied France? I don't think there was a passenger service Cork to Le Harve in the war years.

And as for the Vatican Pimpernel, I don't think the actions of one man who happened to be Irish reflect official Irish policy. It's kind of like saying the US owes a massive debt of gratitude to Germany for Henry Kissinger. (He was German, right?)

yellowjacket
30th May 2005, 12:50
Your "facts" doesn't reflect well on your level of knowledge on this subject - e.g Ireland had no Spitfires in WWII.

Irish military intelligence, contrary to your assertions has been considered the star performer of the Irish army during the emergency.

The extent of Allied / Irish cooperation may be judged by the fact that the US wanted to award an Irish general a medal for the assitance he provided them, but this was blocked by the Irish govt so as not to bring our "neutrality" into question. You seem very sure any cooperation rendered in this area was an informa individual thing - I'd dispute that. Evidence strongly points to official cooperation.

Which Irish military leaders (strange term btw) were pro-German, as a matter of interest? If you have information about high-level German sympathisers in the Irish government or military (to the extent they'd leak information to the Germans), you really better publish it and earn some renown as a historian.

The secret airfield thing is an unconfirmed, persistent rumour that keeps cropping up. The official story of it's being a dispersal airfield for the Air Corps is undermined by the fact the A/C didn't have much to disperse at the time. I reckon it'll take another 40 years or so till we know for sure.

As for the Vatican, evidence points to the Irish embassy staff haveing assisted the POW / Jewish escape efforts on many occasions. Whether or not this was official policy is unclear.

hptmurphy
30th May 2005, 12:56
Ask them to read landfall Ireland byDonal Mccarron and them say we did nothing. We returned all aircraft an and their fittings to Northen Irekand for assesment. After 143 all akkied aimen who coucld prove that ther were on traing flights we not interen .
There were two Direct flight as over country sloigo and donegall to aid ailed flying boatsWe also Aided the organisers of operation Torch when their aircraft carrying the overall plans go lost.

We rescued hundreds of seaman...and our people joined foreigh armies by the thousands and were given manya wards

Tell my cousin Flight Sergeant James Norris that he did nothing as he liesin a war graves comissiom grave in Waterford having been killed on active service as a lancaster tailgunner in sept 1944


And we did nothing....hah! we were the silet partner aan ths ahs be amdimtted by several top states me in the US ann UK after the war.

hptmurphy
30th May 2005, 12:59
Sorry about the quality of typing as both my first and second fingers on my left hand have sticthes due to un noticed broken glass while mowing the lawn this morning

Gasplug
30th May 2005, 13:02
Some American generals even proposed awarding medals to irish Top brass fofr their contribution, but it was decided against in the end, as it may embarass the Irish government. I think the there may have even been on MOH in among the medals to be awarded.

yooklid
30th May 2005, 13:40
More likely a Legion of Merit.

JAG
30th May 2005, 13:46
Your "facts" doesn't reflect well on your level of knowledge on this subject - e.g Ireland had no Spitfires in WWII.

My "facts" reflect about ten minutes skimming through a book on espionage in Ireland by MI5 during WW2 last week- deceptively titled "MI5 and Ireland" or something. I haven't actually read it, but it's supposedly based on official documents. It implies that imformal assistance only being given, but as I say, I only skimmed it.

Bam Bam
30th May 2005, 16:56
I think what ticks a lot of people off about Ireland in WW2 is that we sent a message of sympathy to Germany when Hitler died.

Sure didn't the soviets block our membership of the UN because of our neutrality.

Gasplug
30th May 2005, 16:56
Well maybe you would read it more thoroughly before posting again, then maybe it will be a factual answer. I have learned the hard way here that there is someone who always 'knows' more on a topic then you, so Jag don't go treyin to be the expert on this after only a few minutes reading, a very biased and untrue account of what went on(this commetn on the book was made by person who has a phd in history)

Stinger
30th May 2005, 17:37
in "Wings overe Ireland" the author describes how the Irish and British built an airfield in Cork which they could use if british forces were ever forced out of britian

Steamy Window
30th May 2005, 17:40
do you mean rathduff, in tipperary, which was built by the irish?

there was a small airfield in fermoy.

yellowjacket
30th May 2005, 18:09
Sure didn't the soviets block our membership of the UN because of our neutrality

They blocked us because they didn't see us as neutral at all. They felt we were in fact closely aligned to the USA. They were right - the only thing that kept us out of NATO was partition. The Irish Govt. of the time offered a bilateral defence pact with the US, but this was turned down by the Americans.

combatlogo
30th May 2005, 18:32
They blocked us because they didn't see us as neutral at all. They felt we were in fact closely aligned to the USA. They were right - the only thing that kept us out of NATO was partition. The Irish Govt. of the time offered a bilateral defence pact with the US, but this was turned down by the Americans.

So much for our "constitutionally guaranteed neutrality" so beloved by AFRI, PANA, SF etc then, eh? :rolleyes:

FMolloy
30th May 2005, 19:54
My "facts" reflect about ten minutes skimming through a book on espionage in Ireland by MI5 during WW2 last week- deceptively titled "MI5 and Ireland" or something. I haven't actually read it, but it's supposedly based on official documents. It implies that imformal assistance only being given, but as I say, I only skimmed it.

What a surprise, JAG goes off at half-cock again.

DeV
30th May 2005, 20:02
There is absolutely no mention of neutrality in the Constitution, except to say that the country will not participate in a war without the consent of the Dail.

Silver
30th May 2005, 20:56
It really would be great if a book was published about all the 'behind the scenes activities in official Ireland' during WWII !
......a tv documentary would be a bonus !!

While there may be only a few 'ill-informed' UK contributors to the thread on Keypublishing.co.uk, many other non-contributors will be reading it - so input from you guys would be welcome.

moonstomper
30th May 2005, 23:05
I don't think the posts here reflect just how strongly the American government and particularly Roosevelt despised the stance adopted by Ireland during WW2. Particularly when they thought the D Day landings might have been compromised via German or Japanese diplomats in Dublin whom De Valera refused to expel. Far from handing out medals Roosevelt is said to have strongly considered an invasion of Ireland. Only domestic political considerations ruled it out.

pym
31st May 2005, 13:43
Eh, at least two Irish soldiers were going to be awarded medals by the US, this is a historical fact. Yes an invasion was called for by the American (minister) ambassador, David Gray because of our neutrality but like you say - political considerations ruled it out.

Also I was under the impression the only reason the Soviet Union blocked our membership of the UN was our lack of diplomatic relations with them at the time.

yellowjacket
31st May 2005, 13:46
By all accounts David Gray was a grade A gimp, who got the job through family contacts, and had the diplomatic ability of a particularly oafish donkey.

Oh yeah, the stance Ireland took in 1939 differed how exactly to that taken by the US? Up to 1942, I'd guess there were more Irishmen fighting in the war than Americans...

JAG
31st May 2005, 13:48
What a surprise, JAG goes off at half-cock again.

What a surprise. FMolloy takes the time and effort to get his dig in.

You don't like what I post, moderate me or ban me. You seem to have mistaken me for someone who gives a fcuk.

Big Al
31st May 2005, 14:10
its no fun if eveyone agrees with everyone.... now back on to the topic..

yooklid
31st May 2005, 14:44
Far from handing out medals Roosevelt is said to have strongly considered an invasion of Ireland...

No. Gray, as has been pointed out by other people, was a complete moron. He actually consulted a medium on how he should relay his information back to the US. Roosevelt was more likely to listen to Churchill, whose stated policy was coercion to be superceded by invasion at a time he deemed it necessary.

yooklid
31st May 2005, 14:44
Can we please accede to his wishes?

Or at least have a poll...

ICUN
31st May 2005, 14:47
Thought you could only get banned/moderated if you deliberately insulted people or posted offensivee stuff?

You shouldn't ban someone just because you don't like what they say.

FMolloy
31st May 2005, 22:57
You seem to have mistaken me for someone who gives a fcuk.

There's no way I could mistake you for someone who knows what they're talking about anyway.

As for Allied-Irish co-operation, it was quite extensive and useful. On the naval side of things G2 facilitated a RN's officer's inspection of the southern coast in 1939 to check for U-boats (which he didn't find), from then on it forwarded info gained from Irish coast watchers to the Admiralty. In 1941 the Admiralty were provided, on government orders, with detailed info on various Irish ports. As has been already stated, crashed Allied craft were recovered where possible & returned to their owners. Although initially interred alongside their Axis counterparts, Allied servicemen were subsequently sent back to the UK. The Allies were also in constant receipt of weather reports. The army co-ordinated planning with their UK counterparts, several army officers were sent to Britain for further training.

The biggest area of co-operation was intelligence. Both Garda Special Branch and G2 provided MI5 with intellegence gathered from intercepted communications of Axis legations, notes on the movements of Axis nationals and details of the interrogations of captured agents. One such interrogation gave up vital information on German cyphers that proved very useful to the Allies towards the end of the war.*


(*=private papers of Dr. Michael Hayes, National Library)

Bam Bam
1st June 2005, 00:30
don't forget that Ireland also had a blackout in effect so that the axis aircraft couldn't use ireland as a point of reference to attack england. Which explains the dublin bombings

Tony Kearns
1st June 2005, 10:42
The thread on Key Publishing forum was started by "Panther Aer Chor na hEireann" does he post on other forums under another name? Secret airfields!!! just because the author quoted by Panther did not know of the existance of Rathduff does not make it a secret. There is a map in N/A Kew which shows airfields and lanfing grounds (including Rathduff)all over Ireland including Collinstown, Baldonnel, Gormanston, Rineanna etc I hope he heard of them. The postings by Gunner Who? and FMolloy show that they have a real grasp and understanding of the period.
Bam Bam, not correct. The lights of Dublin ( sometimes dimmed ) were used as a navigation point by the Luftwaffe units KGr100, KG55, KG26( the Pathfinders )also by KG27, KG40, F123 and other units. Please do not raise that hoary old chestnut "bending the Beams" Luftwaffe crews were well aware that their transmission were being interfered with and ignored them.

Goldie fish
1st June 2005, 11:31
Was Decca in use back then?

yooklid
1st June 2005, 13:43
Check out the prat called Benny C

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=76197&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=ireland&start=30

Actually stating that it was OFFICIAL POLICY to allow U-Boats to refuel in Irish ports during WW2?!?!?!?!

Rooster
1st June 2005, 17:03
don't forget that Ireland also had a blackout in effect so that the axis aircraft couldn't use ireland as a point of reference to attack england. Which explains the dublin bombings


I was always under the impression that the blackout was not enforced in ROI, and that there was only one incidence of accidental bombing of Dublin by the Luftwaffe?

pym
1st June 2005, 18:20
Could someone clear this up for me; I remember hearing (alas on the Internet, so the warning signs are flashing in my head) that a Luftwaffe bomber was flown back to Britain from Baldonnel by an Air Corps pilot for evaluation by the RAF in the closing days, or after the war. Is there any truth in this? If it is true, was the aircraft painted in Air Corps colours to avoid it being shot down? It would certainly have made a most interesting photograph.

I've also heard that no Axis aircraft were put into the service of the Air Corps, but is there any evidence to suggest that they, or their surviving parts handed over to Britain?

Cheers

Goldie fish
1st June 2005, 18:30
The men who held the job of "glimmer man" during the emergency has much folklore attached to them. Their lot consisted of checking houses in Dublin before dark to make sure no light was leaking through curtains.

I remember one Air Corps pilot stole one of the Walrus seaplanes and "defected" to the UK. I understand this aircraft is still in th eUK.

Steamy Window
1st June 2005, 18:39
Goldie: he landed at St Mawgan, asking for fuel. RAF station commander saw the IAC roundel, thought he was Dutch, and let him get the fuel. Just then a signal came through from the Don about the Walrus, pilot and a few passengers with him taken under guard, then sent home and off to the Curragh for a while. Pilot then went off and joined the RAF- his original flight was to have been to occupied France!

Pym: a Ju88 landed at Gormo in May '45 and was flown away by the RAF for evaluation of the radar.

combatlogo
1st June 2005, 18:46
The men who held the job of "glimmer man" during the emergency has much folklore attached to them. Their lot consisted of checking houses in Dublin before dark to make sure no light was leaking through curtains.
.

That wasn't the function of the "glimmer men" - gas for cooking was strictly rationed, only to be used at certain times and they used to inspect peoples' cookers for the "glimmer" of gas which would reveal that they had been using their gas outside allotted times.

glimmer man (http://www.ucd.ie/alumni/html/connections7/ucd%2037-39.pdf#search='glimmer%20man%20gas')

Goldie fish
1st June 2005, 18:55
Just testing ye....

The ARP had the job of checking for breaches of the blackout.

Stinger
1st June 2005, 21:43
I think the main reason no axis aircraft were pressed iinto Irish service was that the garman crews made a point of destroying then before they surrendered. Only a very small number of axis aircraft were actually recovered intact

Bam Bam
1st June 2005, 22:59
that and it would be dangerous for the irish aircrews.

I.e flying over the irish sea and getting spotted and fired upon by a british spitfire / hurricane

pym
2nd June 2005, 00:53
That threat didnt stop the Spanish flying 109's (until the 1960's I think..) Bam Bam, I think the Swiss flew Bf110's too :)

My main interest is in the whether crashed Luftwaffe parts were given to Britain - especially for the reconstruction of aircraft like the Fw190, or the later war bombers, when the British were eager to find out what exactly they were up against. I'm guessing the parts were given over, based on the simple fact: we had no use for them, the British did. But I have seen no evidence.

Bam Bam
2nd June 2005, 07:34
yes but the swiss couldn't really fly british or american planes cause 1 they couln't get them and 2 they may have been shot at by the axis.

We didn't hand over parts.
We "lost" them.
We lost them all.

pym
2nd June 2005, 08:53
Ok we're veering way off topic; I dont think the Swiss Air Force cared too much about being "shot at by the axis", since they themselves shot down a number of Luftwaffe aircraft during the war, not to mention allied aircraft. They also suffered losses themselves.

While they may not have used British or American types, they did use a number of French fighters

Do you have a source re: losing parts?

JAG
2nd June 2005, 12:17
The biggest area of co-operation was intelligence. Both Garda Special Branch and G2 provided MI5 with intellegence gathered from intercepted communications of Axis legations, notes on the movements of Axis nationals and details of the interrogations of captured agents. One such interrogation gave up vital information on German cyphers that proved very useful to the Allies towards the end of the war.*


(*=private papers of Dr. Michael Hayes, National Library)


Read the Code Book by Simon Singh. You will rapidly realise why the above is pure, unadulterated bullshit.

Bletchley Park in England and Pearl Harbour were where pretty much all of the allied code-breaking was carried out. They had the best mathematicians in the world going through the German & Japanese codes and, as is now fairly common knowledge, it was far from unusual that allied intelligence officers would read deciphered messages before they had reached their intended recipients.

The Enigma code was substantially broken before WW2 even began- by the Polish bureau of codebreaking on the basis of French intelligence. This was used for almost all communications. If there are private papers which indicate that Irish intelligence provided "vital information on German cyphers that proved very useful to the Allies towards the end of the war" it was because, and only because, the Allied didn't want anyone knowing the codes were well and truly smashed so they could continue reading Axis communications at will. And Allied for that matter- the UK sold war surplus Enigma machines to their allies until the 1960's (I believe) and read diplomatic, believed secure, communications sent using Enigma until that time.

Just because it is written, doesn't make it so.

yellowjacket
2nd June 2005, 12:29
By that I take it you're assuming that all Axis legation comms were via Enigma or similar, and that Ireland hadn't the capability (Bletchley House) to decrypt such transmissions.

Thats fine, except there's more than one way to skin a cat, e.g. traffic analysis, or the old fashioned human based methods of intelligence gathering - i.e. getting a source on the inside. It's furthermore very unlikely all comms would have been encrypted via enigma for that matter, e.g. lower priority stuff (still useful to intercept though), internal communications and so on, not to mention the fact that "Axis" includes other countries without the encryption abiliites of the Germans.

This ignores for a minute the breathtaking arrogance to assume noone else posting on this thread has read "The Code Book".

JAG
2nd June 2005, 12:45
YJ, breathtaking arrogance is what I do best.

And when you know the location, resources and condition of the enemy's forces better than the enemy's commanders, breaking "lower priority" and presumably less complex becomes, well, lower priority.

General Tojo (I think) was assassinated by P38(??) Lightnings at the very edge of their range on the basis of an intercepted and decyrpted but assumed secure communication on his itinerary. The Japanese fleet was sunk on similar interceptions. Romnel was defeated in North Africa by the interruption of supply lines based on intercepted Enigma communications. The battle of the Atlantic and the rendering of the Wolf Packs ineffective, securing UK & allied lines of supply. These were war winning actions, based on interception and decyrption at will of Axis communications.

Who, in all honesty, gives two shites about some Irish amateur codebreaker who broke a couple of low level codes on his own. And who cares about coast watchers, when your main problem is choosing which enemy vessels to sink as you know all their locations anyway.

Steamy Window
2nd June 2005, 12:54
Admiral Yamamoto is who youre thinking of

yellowjacket
2nd June 2005, 12:59
Who, in all honesty, gives two shites about some Irish amateur codebreaker who broke a couple of low level codes on his own. And who cares about coast watchers, when your main problem is choosing which enemy vessels to sink as you know all their locations anyway.

You have to be joking. The whole point of intel is that nothing is insignificant, often more is found from "!ow level" sources because people tend to be less security aware at those levels. Neutral countries were always hotbeds of espionage activity because of the colocation of allied and Axis embassies etc. I'm sure for example the British weould have been very interested to know about IRA / German links, possible sabotage in NI etc etc etc.

You're also vastly overstating the importance of Ultra, which was very handy when available, but for big chunks of the war it simply wasn't. Equally, correlation of Ultra information with other sources was always desirable.


But then you've read "The Code Book" you must know all this already...

combatlogo
2nd June 2005, 13:01
JAG, as YJ states, the ultimate impact of Ultra is overstated. This is particularly so in the case of the Battle of the Atlantic, ultra was not the decisive element in the defeat of the U-Boats as you seem to imply.

JAG
2nd June 2005, 13:49
My understanding of allied codebreaking efforts was that the vast majority of military communications were decrypted within a day.

How could that be of anything other than massive importance in a war?

Bam Bam
2nd June 2005, 13:53
for example

u boat x is given a message to head to y and be there by z.
One day later the allies find out, but its likely that uboat x has since moved on.
One day is a long time in war.

yellowjacket
2nd June 2005, 14:00
My understanding....

Quite.

:)

DeV
2nd June 2005, 16:16
Unlike the Brits and Americans the Germans who landed here had a bad habit of destroying their aircraft

FMolloy
2nd June 2005, 19:55
Who, in all honesty, gives two shites about some Irish amateur codebreaker who broke a couple of low level codes on his own. And who cares about coast watchers, when your main problem is choosing which enemy vessels to sink as you know all their locations anyway.

Cecil Liddell, the head of MI5's Irish section at the time, gave two shites. In a telegram to G2 in Jan 1944 he said:

'Page and self delighted to come over when you think suitable stage if interrogation reached... Information about cyphers and device of great interest. Your preliminary report on radio indicates it may be of type not hitherto known here.'

Denys Page was deputy head of the UK's code and cypher school and an expert on Abwehr cyphers. In the last year of the war the Germans brought in an entirely new system of 'substitution and transposition' cyphers. Dr. Hayes was subsequently told 'that this whole set of cyphers would never have been solved without this vital piece of information culled from (the captured agent)'s work.'

So, too, did the Admiralty. If they weren't interested in reports from the Irish coast they wouldn't have attempted to form their own clandestine coast watching network in 1939.

Gunner Who?
3rd June 2005, 08:55
One other area of "help" may have been in the matter of the minefields laid off the Western Approaches and perhaps close into the southern coast of Ireland . a three mile gap between land and the edge of the first minefield would seem an obvious weakness. Perhaps you naval types know something of this. When did the NS get the MTBs , how many and why?

yooklid
3rd June 2005, 10:00
Also, remember this: at the end of the war, a lot of documentation was shredded and destroyed as being deemed far to sensitive for the public EVER to know about it. One can argue that it was detailing info about the Nazi's, but more likely it was more information about assistance to the Allies.

As far as I know, some other stuff is still classified, we'll probably find out more when we're old old men.

Aidan
3rd June 2005, 10:24
Yup, in about 2042.

DeV
3rd June 2005, 14:04
MTBs

M1 - Built for Estonia, handed over to Marine Service 18/1/40, stuck in ice till 30/1, sailed the next day, sold in 1948

M2 - Built for Latvia, handed over to Marine Service 5/7/40, sold in 1948

M3 - Commissioned 26/7/40, bombed by German aircraft off Isle of Wight, subsequently fired on by Irish coastal battery, sold in 1948

M4 - Commissioned 3/12/42, sold in 1950

M5 - Commissioned 23/12/42, sold in 1950

M6 - Commissioned 24/1/43, sold in 1948

They were all based at Haulbowline for port defence

spider
17th November 2007, 19:32
Carringtons comments in the 'good books' thread reminded me about this -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/02/a5920102.shtml

Anyone shed any light ?

Curragh Plains
19th November 2007, 18:57
Irish co-operation with the Allies during the war was a mixture of official and personal initiatives of varying degrees of significance. Some of it was humanitarian eg. assistance to rescuing British seamen and airmen. Some practical: interning British airmen who happened to land on Irish soil was only a cost to the Irish nation; Some of it was of self-interest: eg ensuring that espionage elements did not reignite Ira campaigns against the Irish state; some of it was based on ideological preferences towards one side or the other. Some of it could hardly be avoided: the air corridor over Donegal for the flying boats in Lough Erne was hardly worth starting a shooting war over. Given Ireland's proximity to Britain and its many deep and personal associations with the British and American populations Irish co-operation was of a low-level and incidental kind and in comparison to other non-belligerent states such as Sweden and Portugal our adherence to a neutral position was quite firm.

GoneToTheCanner
21st November 2007, 15:36
Hi All
Tony, the Luftwaffe did lose aircraft to the deception of "bending" the beams, one in particular being Do 217 U5+DK, near Cambridge, in 1941.The crew baled out after having used up their fuel, having wandered around for hours, trying to track home wards.The captain stated under questioning that he believed himself to be over The Wash, when they baled out.The aircraft belly-landed almost intact.
regards
GttC

GoneToTheCanner
23rd November 2007, 12:52
Hi all
I'm correcting myself...the Do217 crashed on the night of 23rd February, 1944, with all the crew of 4 survivng their baleouts.
Goldie, the Germans had a system called CONSOL, which used master and slave stations, and whose equipment survived in use after WW II in Europe.
regards
GttC

Tony Kearns
23rd November 2007, 21:53
Hi All
Tony, the Luftwaffe did lose aircraft to the deception of "bending" the beams, one in particular being Do 217 U5+DK, near Cambridge, in 1941.The crew baled out after having used up their fuel, having wandered around for hours, trying to track home wards.The captain stated under questioning that he believed himself to be over The Wash, when they baled out.The aircraft belly-landed almost intact.
regards
GttC

Interesting GttC, I have that loss as Do217M-1 Werke nr.56051 U5+DK ,2 nd Staffel KG2 as hit by AA guns West London, crew baled out and aircraft then flew north and as you say landed near Cambridge. This unit did lose a Do217 as a result of Meaconing when in the area of N.Devon it landed eventually at Lydd in Kent.That was in October 1941

My reference to Beams was purely in respect of the operation of the X and Y systems in sorties over Ireland and west coast England. The signal was VHF and was not used on operations when attacking for example Belfast and Glasgow, and as the German crewman, pilots, observers and radio operators mentioned to me, the signal was so weak they ignored it.
Tony K

GoneToTheCanner
23rd November 2007, 22:57
Hi Tony,
The story about U5+DK, as I read it, was that they had become confused by "meaconing"(electronic jamming and false beacon tracks) and were off course, with no visual clues as to where they were. They did come under AA fire and, eventually, they baled out, as their fuel was insufficient to reach France.The pilot had done such a good job of trimming the bomber straight and level that it bellied in, itself, when it ran out of fuel.Unfortunately, the airframe was twisted and the British were unable to make it fit for flight.When questioned by their captors, the crew claimed that one engine had caught fire from AA hits.This didn't tally with the condition of the engine, as the British had found it, which led them to believe that the crew were lost and had chosen captivity rather than risk a Channel crossing with a defective engine and low fuel.I believe that the AA were credited with the shoot-down to prevent knowledge of the electronic deception from becoming known to the Luftwaffe.I've read a lot about this kind of deception, though.How good was it in reality??
I presume the Luftwaffe crews just used normal navigation techniques when out of range of the beams.
regards
GttC

Test Pilot
24th November 2007, 12:02
Carringtons comments in the 'good books' thread reminded me about this -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/02/a5920102.shtml

Anyone shed any light ?

After service, one of the MTB's was sold into private owner ship and was eventually abandoned on the mud flats alongside the railway near Dunkettle, Cork. I noticed it's rotting hull for years as I passed on the train. It was eventually swallowed up by the approach road to the Jack Lynch tunnel. I've no idea as to which one it was.

GoneToTheCanner
24th November 2007, 16:14
Hi all
Same here, TP.I was well surprised when I found out it was one of the MTBs.Are there any MTBs left, not even Irish ones, anywhere? I know there is one on a plinth in Lido di Jesolo,Ravenna, in Italy,if anyone's on hols out that direction.
regards
GttC

spider
24th November 2007, 17:00
Theres a few left -

http://www.coastal-forces.org.uk/

http://mtb102.com/

http://www.bmpt.org.uk/

A marina not far from me used one up until about 10 yrs ago, until it was destroyed in a fire. The keel is all thats left.

Pity no-one thought to preserve any of the Irish MTB's.

Goldie fish
24th November 2007, 17:17
Preservation is not something one thinks of when you are trying to dispose of an unsuitable piece of equipment. Its value only becomes obvious after it is gone. Same goes for the Flower class. Only one survives today of thousands built, and that one includes a piece of the Irish Flowers, the Pom Pom.

spider
24th November 2007, 17:46
Yep,

looking at the histories of the few that survive in the UK, it seems that the only reason they are around was because they were converted to house boats, used by Sea Cadets etc. No-one actually thought about preserving one up until the 1970's. Pure luck that they have survived.

That Flower Class Corvette is a must visit for me, some day.

Goldie fish
24th November 2007, 17:59
HMCS Sackville.

concussion
12th December 2008, 13:18
The following is an extract from a report at the time by A/Comdt M.P. MacCarthy
OC AA Battalion to OC Air Defence Command, Dublin Castle.

This incident is probably the most famous in the units history and I have read this report several times over and I still find it hard to believe or imagine a night like this occurring over the skies of Dublin. It must have been terrifying for both those on the ground and the German crews in the air, who were more then likely lost. 1 ADR (then AA Bn), are the only Army unit to see action during the Second World War.

…23:48hrs 30/5/41 unauthorised aircraft heard east off Carnsore, Co Wexford, and moving north. "Air Raid Message Yellow" given to AA defences in Dublin.

…23:58hrs 30/5/41 unauthorised aircraft now at Wicklow Head and still moving north "Air Raid Message Red" is now given.

…numerous exposures were made from time to time between 00:04hrs 31/5/41 and 02:13 by searchlights on aircraft heard in the vicinity of Dublin. Aircraft were successfully illuminated for AA gun action on three occasions.

…00:35hrs, Clontarf AA Gun Outpost opened fire on an unauthorised aircraft seen illuminated east of post, moving north. Height 7,000ft four rounds of 3.7inch were fired.

…01:28hrs Ringsend AA Gun Outpost opened fire on unauthorised aircraft illuminated seen North West of post moving South East. Height 8,000ft four rounds of 3.7inch were fired.

…01:28, Clontarf AA Gun Outpost opened fire on unauthorised aircraft illuminated West of Post, moving South. Height 8,000ft four rounds of 3.7inch were fired.

…01:31, Ballyfermot AA Gun Outpost opened fire on an unauthorised aircraft seen illuminated East of Post. Height 8,000ft four rounds of 3inch were fired. Aircraft took avoiding action and jinked from beams before rounds were observed to burst.

…01:30, Stillogran AA Gun Outpost opened fire on two unauthorised aircraft seen illuminated NorthWest. Height 8,000ft four rounds of 3inch were fired.

During this engagement the aircraft took avoiding action and green flares were seen to be drooped which coincided with bombs being drooped in the Phoenix Park. The pilots deemed it necessary to jettison their bombloads rather then risk getting hit with them onboard.

…01:30hrs, Collinstown AA Gun Outpost opened fire with two Bofors 40mm and four Hotchkiss .303inch Machine Guns on an unauthorised monoplane seen over post. Height 2-3,000ft 54 rounds of 40mm and 248 rounds of .303inch were fired.

…01:45, Collinstown AA Gun Outpost saw a twin engined monoplane approaching. The outpost opened fire with two Bofors 40mm and four Hotchkiss Machine guns. Firing 58 40mm rounds and 490 .303inch rounds.

This period of "Alert" lasted from 23:48hrs 30/5/41to 02:32hrs 31/5/41. Within this period of alert bombs were dropped in the following areas in Dublin City resulting in the loss of life and the damage of property; Summerhill Parade, North Circular Road, Phoenix Park, Newcomon Bridge and North Strand.

Another period of "Alert" occurred on the same night from 03:45hrs to 04:15hrs but there was only minor action over Dalkey AA Gun Outpost...


Does anyone have a link to this article, I think it was published in An Cosantoir a few years ago but I can't track it down. I think the name of the article was 'Air Raid Warning Red' or something like that.

WilcoOut
13th December 2008, 16:19
http://www.csn.ul.ie/~dan/war/eire.htm

for some further reading

Flamingo
13th February 2013, 02:50
Pym: a Ju88 landed at Gormo in May '45 and was flown away by the RAF for evaluation of the radar.
Just found this, and can vouch for the truth of it - I remember my father telling me he saw it take off...
I vaguely remember him saying that there was difficulty in getting it to take off, and the German pilot had to assist in some way.

Battletour
13th February 2013, 15:14
Just found this, and can vouch for the truth of it - I remember my father telling me he saw it take off...
I vaguely remember him saying that there was difficulty in getting it to take off, and the German pilot had to assist in some way.

Superb photo of this aircraft in Gormo hangs in the Officers' Mess.

GoneToTheCanner
13th February 2013, 17:22
The German pilot had made a completely blind landing on a short grass airstrip, which is what gained British attention. He shouldn't have been able to do it but was able to because the radar was able to show an accurate coastline and he was able to make a safe approach and land. The great British test pilot, Eric "Winkle" Brown, who was already familiar with Ju88s, was well impressed with this feat and said so. He performed a very careful exam of the aircraft and was able to perform an equally daring takeoff, given that the runway was short and wet, having taken the advice of the German pilot. He was always full of praise for the quality of German aircraft and his books on testing enemy aircraft make fascinating reading.

regards
GttC

Tony Kearns
20th February 2013, 19:14
Mick,
I am not quite sure by your saying that the Luftwaffe pilot made a completely blind landing. He knew exactly where he was and came straight in off the sea through very low cloud/mist right over the airfield. His Gormo coordinates were all tapped into his onboard computer. He circled twice and came in after ascertaining wind direction and choosing the best run. His main concern on touch down was the wet grass as his Ju88 operated on concrete runways at Grove.
By the same token Capt Eric Brown was surprised at the landing on the small airfield, but after walking the field he just stood on the brakes and let go no problem, of course on a now dry airfield.
In late 1941 a Wellington (larger than a Ju88) took off no problem and in 1945 a four engined Stirling bomber got away under slightly more worrying conditions but nevertheless cleared the railway line , but just about, lucky no trains were passing.
If the Luftwaffe pilot had concerns I wonder why had did not opt for the concrete runways at Collinstown just down the road.

danno
21st February 2013, 00:10
Photos of the Ju also in AAA Quigleys memoirs of his days in the IAC.

Turkey
21st February 2013, 01:38
Err, I don't think Collinstown's concrete runways were completed until 1947.

GoneToTheCanner
21st February 2013, 05:05
Well, if he was so certain of his position, why would he pick the smallest of the three? perhaps he expected to be shot at with something heavy and decided to chance his arm with Gormo. I'm assuming from your accuracy here, Tony, that you spoke or corresponded with him or his crew.

regards
GttC

Turkey
21st February 2013, 05:41
I'm assuming that Gormo' was the nearest neutral airfield, being the most easterly of 5 possible landing sites( was tallaght still in existence at that time?)

Tony Kearns
21st February 2013, 13:22
Err, I don't think Collinstown's concrete runways were completed until 1947.

T you are correct of course, the only advantage for the Ju88 would have been a longer landing run, but in any eveny was not required.
Thanks for that.
Tony K

kaiser
21st February 2013, 19:07
great story the pic is also in the nco,s mess in gormo
with a little bit of the story beside it
maybe the full story should be there to, to pass on the history..

Tony Kearns
21st February 2013, 19:57
Well, if he was so certain of his position, why would he pick the smallest of the three? perhaps he expected to be shot at with something heavy and decided to chance his arm with Gormo. I'm assuming from your accuracy here, Tony, that you spoke or corresponded with him or his crew.

regards
GttC

I had only indirect contact with him through Paul Stormer (Waterford crash Aug 1942). A lot of incorrect and confusing information has been written about his arrival in Ireland and in a way understandable as he gave two different versions and reasons for and of the flight to The Army G2 and another to Capt Eric Brown ( Capt brown told me that he was allowed to interview him). I cannot explain why he chose Gormo except that Baldonnel and Collinstown were extensivly photographed by the Luftwaffe and would have shown defences on pictures.
Tallaght was not used as a base by the Air Corps

GoneToTheCanner
22nd February 2013, 04:24
Hi all,
Tony, I did read that the radar in the 88 was regarded as the best of it's kind for look-down stuff, for finding ships and coast. Apart from that, when are you going to give us IMOers a lecture on all things Luftwaffe?

regards
GttC

Turkey
22nd February 2013, 05:15
I knew tallaght was not an Air Corps base, I was only thinking of it as being a useable landing site, but i would be surprised if Gormo's defences were less then Bal's as it was an active base. My dad told me years ago that Collinstown was " spiked" by horse drawn vehicles when not in use, spiked was the phrase he used by the way.
I would love to hear the whole story....
By the way, Tony, was Gormo extended in anyway since the war?

Flamingo
22nd February 2013, 13:10
Out of curiosity, why was the JU88 handed over? I cam guess the realpolitik reasons, but was the pilot interned here, or handed over as well?

jack nastyface
22nd February 2013, 15:01
Theres a few left -

http://www.coastal-forces.org.uk/

http://mtb102.com/

http://www.bmpt.org.uk/

A marina not far from me used one up until about 10 yrs ago, until it was destroyed in a fire. The keel is all thats left.

Pity no-one thought to preserve any of the Irish MTB's.

There was the rotting hull of an MGB on the north bank of the Bann, on the approaches to Coleraine a few years ago, not sure if its still there, been a while since I sailed up there.

GoneToTheCanner
22nd February 2013, 18:51
The RAF and associated tech people wanted the radar. The airframe was unimportant to them, in itself, but a live aircraft, fit for air tests, was very nice to have and they always wanted to be certain to keep abreast of German field modifications.

regards
GttC

jack nastyface
22nd February 2013, 18:55
Think I heard about a Liberator or some coastal command type crashing on hungry hill,and a big flap on to retreve its radar as it was state of the art at the time. Ever hear of that gttc?

Tony Kearns
22nd February 2013, 20:32
Hi all,
Tony, I did read that the radar in the 88 was regarded as the best of it's kind for look-down stuff, for finding ships and coast. Apart from that, when are you going to give us IMOers a lecture on all things Luftwaffe?

regards
GttC

If someone wants to organise a venue and time I will give the talk.
regards
Tony K

GoneToTheCanner
23rd February 2013, 00:16
Hi all,
Jack, if it was a Coastal Command aircraft, then the Germans would have been pleased to find out the operating frequency of the anti-U-Boat radar, (which was making life unpleasant for the submariners) which they would divine from the size of the aerials. If it was a standard Liberator of the RAF, then it may have had H2S, which was being used as a blind bombing radar/navigation radar and which also would have interested the Germans, who subsequently used the emissions from the H2S to home in their Me110s onto the night bombers.

regards
GttC

Tony Kearns
24th February 2013, 23:14
I knew tallaght was not an Air Corps base, I was only thinking of it as being a useable landing site, but i would be surprised if Gormo's defences were less then Bal's as it was an active base. My dad told me years ago that Collinstown was " spiked" by horse drawn vehicles when not in use, spiked was the phrase he used by the way.
I would love to hear the whole story....
By the way, Tony, was Gormo extended in anyway since the war?

Tallaght was used by the Army after the Civil War for storage and about 1926 the ESB ran a cable acrross the field.
Baldonnel , Collinstown and Gormo were staked but with runway clearences for operations and could be blocked very quickly.The first two had a couple of AA Artillery
pieces but Gormo had only machine gun defences.Gormo was cleared of all obstructions just before the Ju88 arrived as the Fighter Squadron had take up residence from Rineanna on the 1st May.
There was not much of a rush by the British to inspect the Ju88 after being told of its arrival as they had already acquired one in 1944 but were interested to know had it different engines (it had, otherwise it was much the same, slightly later model)
GttC I doubt if it had downward looking radar it was a night fighter and would imagine it's radar was for air to air interceptions but capable of identifying shorelines.

sofa
25th February 2013, 00:21
Tony while your here. A quick question, Did you ever hear about Air Corps Hurricanes "buzzing" an RAF airfield in the north in retaliation for a RAF buzzing earlirer

in the war. Can across this in a paper years ago.?????


Regards

Jetjock
25th February 2013, 01:41
Capt Eric Brown's version of events:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=MMEK1jwD03AC&pg=PT75&lpg=PT75&dq=ju+88+gormanston&source=bl&ots=MGU4-Uw0cm&sig=mbeUqx7wXZfg1xe2N2B6QAkLOZ0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OKwqUdmaG_So0AWypoHYBw&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCDgK

You might have to scroll up a bit.

hptmurphy
25th February 2013, 14:25
spiked was the phrase he used by the way.

used to be a grass strip runing parallel to RWY 21/03 at Waterford and it used to be spiked on an annula basis to improve drainage.

Often seen the same on golf courses.


Out of curiosity, why was the JU88 handed over? I cam guess the realpolitik reasons, but was the pilot interned here, or handed over as well

Pilot would have been interned, Read 'Guests of The State' by ?? Ryle, great account of the interness who ,why and what!

hptmurphy
25th February 2013, 20:24
the books is actually written by a guy called T.Ryle Dwyer, just checked it out.

Tony Kearns
25th February 2013, 22:13
Tony while your here. A quick question, Did you ever hear about Air Corps Hurricanes "buzzing" an RAF airfield in the north in retaliation for a RAF buzzing earlirer

in the war. Can across this in a paper years ago.?????


Regards

Yes sofa,
I have heard this story but could never got it to run. The late Des Johnston (Comdt) just smiled at me when i asked him about it, guilty or what???
regards
Tony K

pym
4th March 2013, 23:51
Interesting reference to Irish codebreaking during the war:
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.gr/2013/03/the-mysterious-irish-codebreakers.html

Jetjock
5th March 2013, 00:08
Interesting reference to Irish codebreaking during the war:
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.gr/2013/03/the-mysterious-irish-codebreakers.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Hayes_(code_breaker_%26_librarian)

pym
5th March 2013, 00:13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Hayes_(code_breaker_%26_librarian)

I've read that wikipedia entry a number of times and it's pretty incredible what Hayes & his codebreakers achieved.

I have to try and chase up any books on the man.

Jetjock
5th March 2013, 00:19
First time I have seen it. Seems like the kind of guy they could have used in Bletchley Park. In a round about way, I suppose they did! Incredible story.

pym
5th March 2013, 00:25
The odd thing is - the Irish diplomatic codes themselves were pretty soft, I'm guessing they didn't let Hayes work his magic on them

http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.ie/2012/06/irish-government-telegraph-code.html

pym
5th March 2013, 14:30
I rooted out a book I hadn't gotten around to finishing, G2 In Defence of Ireland, Irish Military Intelligence 1918-45.

There's a portion dealing with Richard J. Hayes - it doesn't touch on microdots at all, concentrating on the ciphers of the agents the Nazi's sent to Ireland.

A couple of things I can take from a quick read: Hayes worked quite closely with Bletchley Park, for he knew the manner in which they had gotten their first grip on the Enigma Machine - that is, the operator mistakes which lead to breaking the codes.

It's amazing that they actually revealed that to him - and adds substance to the claims that he had done a great job breaking the Goertz ciphers and had impressed GCHQ.

There's a mention of cracking a British cypher which was used to communicate with German resistance late in the war, but no mention of other allied methods.

But probably most telling is the response of a Government official to query by the then head of G2, Dan Bryan:


"When can historical researchers hope to have in Ireland, in the National Library, microfilm of all war papers relating to Ireland", to which Raymond replied: "I very much fear the answer to your question may be never... The major problem is that de Valera simply put little diplomatic or security information on paper from 1940-1944".

So.. we may never know the full goings on. What a shame.

Aidan
5th March 2013, 14:42
So.. we may never know the full goings on. What a shame.

We probably won't ever get all of what went on, but more may become available in the 2040s - not just from the National Archives here but from London also. Makes you wish that more people in public life here kept proper diaries and actually wrote memoires.

pym
5th March 2013, 14:49
We probably won't ever get all of what went on, but more may become available in the 2040s - not just from the National Archives here but from London also. Makes you wish that more people in public life here kept proper diaries and actually wrote memoires.

Hopefully I live long enough!

I guess the other (miniscule) hope is that G2 join the ranks of MI5 & SIS and open their archives to a trusted researcher, in order to document their history for the public.

But I very much get the sense that they & C3 have deliberately tended toward obscurity, which is understandable but also a shame, because one gets the sense from the little that is known, that they've done a lot of great work which we should celebrate & applaud.

GoneToTheCanner
5th March 2013, 15:03
One thing that helped Allied codebreakers is that they found German signallers to be very chatty and lax in their radio security (bored signallers transmitting to each other). One giveaway, mentioned in one of RV Jones' books, was the German use of multi-lettered acronyms and their habit of copying the secret messages to large numbers of subunits and HQs, so that the Allied readers were able to make educated guesses if something big was in the offing. Some german commanders did not believe that Enigma was as safe as claimed and continued to rely on hand-delivered orders and rigid radio silence.

regards
GttC

pym
5th March 2013, 15:38
That was one of the killer errors that Hayes found in some of the "tradecraft" of the Nazi spies that operated here - repetition of words like "frequenz" & "greusse".

Likewise the ENIGMA operator blunders Hayes was aware of via GCHQ involved guys sending precisely the same message, with errors, sending a long message consisting of only one letter repeating - just major sloppiness, but as Hayes said:


The whole success of a cryptological department depends on this unending vigilance, waiting for the lucky break.

The wartime strength of G2 is listed at 65 all ranks , plus 34 intelligence officers.

Tapping of phones, cables & post were done by P&T staff - the manpower just wasn't there for it to be done by anyone else.

The army monitored radio transmissions from the German legation, but there was little mention of other SIGINT work.

As a radio geek, I do wonder whether radio hams/amateurs were seconded as they were in Britain.

Galloglass
5th March 2013, 17:27
The relative strengths/weaknesses of the Defence Forces at any particular stage of the Emergency are important in themselves but are not necessarily the only consideration to be taken into account. At least as important is whether any attacker believed that they would be resisted by all means available. After Dunkirk, when "Monty" was placed in command of southern England and it's preparations for the German invasion (Operation Sealion) he was asked by Churchill to examine the possibility of taking over the south coast region of Ireland/Treaty Ports etc. Monty's report stated that he would need three Divisions to control the region "if the Irish resist" and that he had only three Divisions defending the whole of southern England at the time.

I believe that De Valera was offered ALL the abandoned British Expeditionary Force equipment by Hitler. Dev declined as he didn't want to upset our neighbour but also intimated that he was sure if we ever needed it "German ingenuity" would manage to get it to us.

The "secret" aerodrome in Tipperary could be used by whatever Aer Chór assets could survive any initial attack on Irish airfields. The location of Baldonnel, Dublin etc were pretty well known by all the combatants. The airfield itself was "opened up" and used by Lysanders and Hinds in the Divisional manouvers in 1942 I think.

sofa
5th March 2013, 21:13
Hopefully I live long enough!

I guess the other (miniscule) hope is that G2 join the ranks of MI5 & SIS and open their archives to a trusted researcher, in order to document their history for the public.

But I very much get the sense that they & C3 have deliberately tended toward obscurity, which is understandable but also a shame, because one gets the sense from the little that is known, that they've done a lot of great work which we should celebrate & applaud.

To rank as a hero in Ireland, and get a mention in a school book, You have to fail at something and then be shot by the brits.

Aidan
6th March 2013, 09:40
one gets the sense from the little that is known, that they've done a lot of great work which we should celebrate & applaud.

Thats the key point I suppose. You and I might applaud the work done, but there are plenty of others who would make political hay out of their work, and that could well challenge their abiliy to keep doing what they are doing. Given the ongoing sensitivities around the Peace Process, it'll be at least 100 years before more recent archives here are opened, if ever.

pym
6th March 2013, 12:23
Thats the key point I suppose. You and I might applaud the work done, but there are plenty of others who would make political hay out of their work, and that could well challenge their abiliy to keep doing what they are doing. Given the ongoing sensitivities around the Peace Process, it'll be at least 100 years before more recent archives here are opened, if ever.

Agreed.

I guess I just it find it irritating that when one does a little reading of (other) on-line forums, the whole notion of Irish intelligence work & in truth anything related to the DF, one keeps running into the loud morons, constantly mocking, belittling - speaking with great certainty on subjects they know absolutely nothing about.

But I suppose that level of ignorance probably suits the DF & Gardai, especially if it's coming from the mouths of criminal/terrorist sympathizers.

As you say, the reality of our situation, probably precludes us from ever getting a fuller picture - as a history/intelligence/military buff, that drives me mad, but as a citizen I accept it.

danno
12th March 2013, 23:48
To rank as a hero in Ireland, and get a mention in a school book, You have to fail at something and then be shot by the brits.

Equally it was vital not to fall in action but,ala Collins,Dev, Pearse et al,but to be taken prisoner as this seriously increased your chances of having a barracks,train station, street and corpo estate named after you.In the meantime it is in order to openly despise those who became POWs in whatever circumstance while secretly harbouring your desire to become a captive on that well trodden path to eternal glory.

Archimedes
13th March 2013, 02:45
To rank as a hero in Ireland, and get a mention in a school book, You have to fail at something and then be shot by the brits.

I always roll my eyes when I hear the Sean South song,
a) he wasn't the leader
b) he was from Henry St, not Garrowen
c) he was an ultra-religious nutjob
d) if you are going to undertake a sneak attack (regardless of your motives) and you fcuk it up and get shot, you deserve a Darwin award, not a song

FCA Trooper
14th March 2013, 09:13
For anyone interested in the subject, 'Defending Ireland' by Eunan 'O Halpin is well worth a look. It covers from the foundation of the State up to when it was published, around 1999.

A big chunk of it deals with World War 2 and relations between the De Valera government and the allies and axis powers, espionage, counter espionage, ciphers, etc. It's a good read.

Flamingo
14th March 2013, 10:28
Equally it was vital not to fall in action but,ala Collins,Dev, Pearse et al,but to be taken prisoner as this seriously increased your chances of having a barracks,train station, street and corpo estate named after you.In the meantime it is in order to openly despise those who became POWs in whatever circumstance while secretly harbouring your desire to become a captive on that well trodden path to eternal glory.
Collins was KIA, I thought?

Aidan
14th March 2013, 10:48
Collins was imprisoned after 1916, in Frongoch, which undoubtedly added to his credibility no end in the run up to the War of Independence. But yes, ultimately KIA

Flamingo
14th March 2013, 12:19
Ok, I misunderstood your point. :biggrin: