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Petrus
2nd June 2005, 13:35
As you may know at http://www.geocities.com/irisharmoredvehicles/TARV_Mk1.html a Timoney design is mentioned, which is an armoured recce vehicle (or armoured car). The page says there were two prototypes built and then the production rights were sold to Tanzania where an unspecified number of these were adopted by the country's army.

Unfortunately, the vehicle's data given there is uncomplete. For instance there is no info on its dimensions. Does anybody here have more details regarding this very interesting design? And what about the Tanzanian trail (when? how many? etc.)?

As well I would be interested in the vehicle's pictures.

Best regards,
Petrus

hptmurphy
4th June 2005, 15:44
As I understand it only very preliminary work was carried out on this protoype in Ireland. The whole production line was set up and run in Tanzania.

The vehicl is not even mentioned in Janes recognition hand books over the past number of years. The IAS website provides all the information that is available on the machine.

Sorry we can't be of more help.

c-90
14th January 2007, 21:42
Dose the army still use the timony apc

B Inman
14th January 2007, 22:01
Dose the army still use the timony apc

No..

Have not been used for sometime.....

Their last use was as hard targets in the Glen.

use the search function for more info...

mugs
14th January 2007, 22:02
http://gallery.irishmilitaryonline.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1244&g2_serialNumber=2
http://gallery.irishmilitaryonline.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1327&g2_serialNumber=2

Was wondering, were they ever deployed overseas?

B Inman
14th January 2007, 22:17
http://gallery.irishmilitaryonline.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1244&g2_serialNumber=2
http://gallery.irishmilitaryonline.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1327&g2_serialNumber=2

Was wondering, were they ever deployed overseas?



No, they never even made it into general use... were mostly used in the Cav.. never (AFIK) in inf Bns.... in the 70's and 80's the APC in general use was the Panhard M3 APC... The only time I saw Timoneys in the East was with the "then" 2 Mot Sqn in Griffith Barracks. AFIK they were only issued to Cav units.

Goldie fish
15th January 2007, 15:29
They make great HEAT targets.

hptmurphy
15th January 2007, 17:09
Mugs you can use my photos I don't mind..just credit me with taking them.

the Cav school also used them..they went to the border with the Cav in longford as well.

mugs
15th January 2007, 17:16
Mugs you can use my photos I don't mind..just credit me with taking them.

Sorry, I wasn't posting them outside the board so I didn't think it was a problem.

hptmurphy
15th January 2007, 17:24
Makes a change..apology accepted.

California Tanker
15th January 2007, 19:10
Plenty of the APCs still in use in Belgium.

http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/bdx2.jpg

NTM

Aidan
15th January 2007, 21:08
Thought the Irish ones had a different engine/transmission that made them louder and slower than the Belgian ones??

ias
15th January 2007, 21:12
The majority (at least 95) of the BDX APCs have actually been sold by Belgium to Mexico and are in service there as the DNC-2, must say they seem to be going strong, here's a link http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/album52/amy?full=1.

The Timoney's were actually built by a subsidiary of Timoney Technology, Technology Investments Limited, reportedly in Dublin, but some reports indicate that at least one prototype was built by the Sugar Company in Carlow.

IAS

Goldie fish
15th January 2007, 21:23
Sugar factory by day, international arms manufacturer by night. AFRI would not be pleased.

Aidan
15th January 2007, 22:07
The sugar factory had a manufacturing plant for years, they built the old Armer beet harvesters there (while they were yellow) and then the Armer salmon (green) stuff so it would make sense that they would have had the welding gear and the ability to cut steel plate. No mention of it in Karl Martins book. Did the sugar company also make gear during WWII? Vague memories of landmines or something like that. Sugar company was state owned also - so it would have been a state company building military equipment.

For the record,(and answering my own question) the engines used were a 180hp Chrysler V8 (petrol) in the Mk IV and a 170hp Detroit Diesel in the MkV.

Anyways, does anyone have more details of the origin of these APCs? They're a highly unusual story - the only real attempt to design and build military vehicles for the DF in Ireland in the modern era. Martin also mentions that they were supposed to replace the VTT, and also were to be replaced by Alvis Stormer APCs. Any idea of what role these were supposed to have?

The Blue Max
16th January 2007, 04:25
The Alvis Stormer was meant to replace the Timoney ARV serving with the Cavarly units and serve alongside the Scorpian CVR-T. It could operate more effetively together as both vehicles our tracked. Thats all information that i know of relating to the possible purchase but I would love to know more about this or was there any more plans for the Stormer in the DF?

mutter nutter
16th January 2007, 11:20
off topic a bit, but who owns Timoney now, is it Singapore Industries?

hptmurphy
16th January 2007, 15:51
From Janes 1976 Bt Christopher F. Foss.

Timoney Armoured Personnel Carrier.
Basic data APC Recce Vehicle
Crew: 12 9
Weight Loaded 8164kg 8164kg
Weight empty 6350kg 6803kg
Lenght 4.95m 4,64m
Width 2.406m 2.406m
Hw Turret 2.475m 2,14m
Height of hull 2.032m ------
Ground clearance .381m .381m
Track: 1.93m 1.93m
Wheel base 2.867m 2.867m
Tyres 11.00x20 11.00x20
or 12.00x20 12.00x20
Turning radius 6.1m 6.1m
max Road speed 98km/h 98km/h
Max Water speed 4.8km/h 4.8km/h
range 483km 483km
Fuel 273 litres 273 litres
Fording Amphibious Amphibious
Gradient 60% 60%
Side Slope 30% 30%
Angle of approach 35degress -----
Angle of departure 45 degrees 45 degrees
Verticle obstacle .762m .762m
Engine

Both were powered by a Chrysler type 360 CID , 8 cylinder , water cooled engine developing 200bhp at 4,000 rpm

Armamnet see text.

part two to follow.

above data refers to the MK 111

madmark
16th January 2007, 15:55
it makes a nice big ball of fire when hit with a heat round

ODIN
16th January 2007, 16:17
No jokes there :biggrin::biggrin:

hptmurphy
16th January 2007, 17:07
Development.

Development of the Timoney armoured personnel carrier started in january 1972 with the first production prototype being completed in 1973. Since then a further two prototypes have een built and a pre production batch is planned.The Timoney APC has been develpoed to meet an Irish Department of Defence requirement for a vehicle for use both in Ireland and abroad as part of the United nations Forces.

So far Armoured Personnel Carriers Mk .1, 3 and 4 have been developed. Other projects include the Mk2 Armoured Reconnaissance Vehicle and a 4x4 ammphibious load carrier.

Description.

The hull of the APC is of all welded construction and provides complete protection from small arms fire including 7.62mm armour piercing rounds,
The driver is seated at the front of the hull and is provided witha large bullet proof windscreen to his front. This can be opened and used as an emergencey exit if required, and there is a smaller bullet proof window each side of the drivers station..There is a door in each side of the hull and afurther door in the rear of the hull.There are two firing ports in the right side of the hull, three in the left and two in the hull rear , one on each side of the door. A turrret mounted twin 7.62mm machine gun is mounted in the roof o the vehicle.This has a manual tarverse and is provided with a total of five vision blocks. the turret has two piece cover , the top part opens frowrds and the rear part folds backwards to provide a seat for the commander.Smoke dischargers can be mounted each side of the hull and other armament intallations are possible.

The engine which is identical to that used in the M113APC, is behind and slightly to the right of the driver.This is connected to an Allison AT 540 automatic transmission comprising of a hydro kinetic torque converter driving a multi range epicyclic gearbox with 4F and 1R gears.This is connected to a two speed (road and cross country) transfer gearbox to drive shafts running front and rear of the axles which incorporated @No Spin@ differentials.rom the axle power is caried by universal joints to the wheels, and a epicycle hub reduction gear is incorporated. Air is drawn through the forward part of the hullabove the drivers station by a cooling fan and is used to cool the engine and water.The air is alsoused to cool the automatic transmission oil.There is an exhaust pipe on on each side of the roof one for ecah bank of cylinders. The indepenedent suspension consists of wishbone linages anchored to the hull and supported by helical coil springs with hydraulic shock absorbers.

Disc barkes are fitted on all wheels and run flat tyres are standard.The steering is of rack and pinion type and is power assisted.The electrical system was developed for the vaheicle by The Babriel Company of Leon,France and is 24v and battery capacity is128Amp?hrs.The Gabriel Company in fact designed the instrument panel,heater,bilge pumps, gun firing system,rotary junction and radio control box....to the requirements of Timoney Investments LTD.The APC is fully amphibious being propelled in the water by its wheels.A kit is being developed which will increase water speed to 11/km/h.Electric bilge pumps are provided.It is possible to install an airconditioning system.

Variants

Armoured Reconnasissance Vehicle.

This will have a lower hull than the APC and will have a crew of three--- Driver commander and gunner.It will also be able to carry six infantrymen.On this model the driver is at the front,turret and personnel compartment are in the centre and the engine at the rear of the hull.There is an entry door at each side of the hull.The turret has a full powered traverse through 360 degrees and both the commander and gunner have individual hatch covers.A variety of armamnent installations are possible including 20 or 30 mm automatic cannon 75mm or 90mm guns or a recoiless rifle.

A floatation screen is carried around the top of the hull, which can be quickly erected so that the vehicle can swim across rivers and streams.

Amphibious Load carrier

This will e full amphibious and will be able to carry 5080kg of cargo both on land and water.



Text and statiscs taken from janes World Armoured Fighting Vehicles !976..written by Christopher F. Foss

DeV
16th January 2007, 18:35
The MkVI was deployed with the tank squadron, not to go into too much restricted information but the tank squadron and each cavalry squadron for that matter should have a small number of APCs in a support role.

Pod
16th January 2007, 20:42
The MkVI was deployed with the tank squadron, not to go into too much restricted information but the tank squadron and each cavalry squadron for that matter should have a small number of APCs in a support role.

Its not restricted DeV- matter of public record. An Cosantoir did a big article on the Tank squadron some years ago and provided a full TOE.

REX
18th February 2007, 01:58
The sugar factory had a manufacturing plant for years, they built the old Armer beet harvesters there (while they were yellow) and then the Armer salmon (green) stuff so it would make sense that they would have had the welding gear and the ability to cut steel plate. No mention of it in Karl Martins book. Did the sugar company also make gear during WWII? Vague memories of landmines or something like that. Sugar company was state owned also - so it would have been a state company building military equipment.

I clearly remember my father describing the heavy welding process used in the production of timoney hulls. He saw this during a visit to the timoney factory in the course of his work with AnCO (thats the forerunner to FAS for those younger viewers!)

DeV
18th February 2007, 13:37
With regard to the targets in the Glen (formerly APCs), many armies seem to put such vehicles in semi-permanent positions and fill them with rubble or concrete to lengthen their life span (as a target). Why don't the DF do this?

Goldie fish
18th February 2007, 14:32
Because they won't give as good an explosion when they are filled with concrete and you hit them with a 90mm HEAT.

Petrus
28th March 2007, 22:10
Its not restricted DeV- matter of public record. An Cosantoir did a big article on the Tank squadron some years ago and provided a full TOE.

Hopefully someone in the forum does have the article in question. If so, could you please post information on the tank squadron.

By the way, I seek any information about the Irish cavalry organization (TOEs). I would be really grateful for any info regarding that matter (of course, I mean not-restricted info only!).

Best regards,
Piotr

MOD: TOEs of any DF unit are restricted unless that information is in the public domain already (released by DF sources, if such an article was published in An Cosantoir it was pre-1996.

Pod
31st March 2007, 21:18
I can't remember the exact year but it was pre-1989, and from what I recollect (vaguely and probably incorrectly on this one DeV) Connect did a centre page break down of the new unit set ups post PWC.

DeV
1st April 2007, 09:51
Correct Pod

Tk Sqn consists of Sqn HQ, Admin Tp, Support Tp and 3 x Tk Tps as per the diagram in Connect - that is all the information that was given.

TOE is more to do with equipment (type & quantities) - not to be published here.

Pod
1st April 2007, 16:56
I wasn't sure of the detail in Connect DeV- but the An Cossantoir article did provide the detail.