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28th February 2003, 12:58
Caseless ammunition
Current type
Don't know

28th February 2003, 14:21
What is "Flechettes" - yes I know I could search the web for the answer, but how about giving me the short version. ;)

28th February 2003, 14:35
well for those of us who arent that bright could you give an example of each please?

28th February 2003, 14:40
Flechettes are basically long thin arrow-like projectiles. They have a high wounding potential, but accuracy and range is still a problem. There are also doubts about the legality of such ammunition im small arms. The experimental Steyr ACR rifle (http://www.steyr-aug.com/acr2002.htm) used them, but wasn't taken into service.

Caseless ammo has been shown to work, and has some advantages, but so far they don't justify the expense of switching over. The Heckler & Koch G11 (http://hkpro.com/g11.htm) sucessfully used it, but bankrupted HK.

Metalstorm (http://www.metalstorm.com) have interesting ideas, but it's unlikely their primary application will be in small arms.

Until cartridge ammunition is replace with Railguns (http://www.glubco.com/weaponry/railgun.htm) or energy weapons, metallic cased small arms ammo has probably got a long life still.

28th February 2003, 15:10
Caseless ammo involves encasing the projectile in the propellant. The benefits of caseless ammunition include higher rates of fire, lower weight, elimination of ejection and extraction stoppages, no spent case signature, no consumption of case materials, and smaller cartridge dimensions.

Flechettes operate similar to APFSDS rounds used by armoured vehicles.

The problem with new weapons systems is the cost, there is something like a 6-to-1 ratio in terms of cost and effect; i.e. a 1% improvement in effect will cost 6 times as much as an existing weapon. An illustration of this would be the U.S. Army's Advanced Combat Rifle competition, held during the 80's. H&K developed a rifle that fired caseless ammo, Steyr produced one that fired flechettes and there were other entrants. Apparently most of the weapons performed well, but the high unit cost of each entrant meant they couldn't be adopted without curtailing spending elsewhere. In the end the U.S. Army decided none of weapons offered enough of an improvement over the M-16 to warrant the cost.

I did read something somewhere about an Australian inventor who has come up with a weapon that works like a Roman candle. It apparently has a very high cyclic rate; the U.S. is applying the idea to AA guns. I think its called Metal Storm.

28th February 2003, 16:06
If you like nasty weapons and have a PC check out Unreal Tournament or it's sucessor Unreal Tournament 2003. You have to try out the Redeemer!


Flechettes have been used in the field and although they have prooven good at penetrating body armour they tend to lack stopping power.

I've only recently heard of metal storm, by all accounts it would be highly destructive given it's high rate of fire.

Caseless ammo has been experimented with, some side effects include "cookoff" of rounds and fowling rapidly building up in the barrel.

Railguns require enormous amounts of power because of the strong magnetic fields involved so most are extremely large.

If you like these futuristic weapons they feature in movies like Aliens, Eraser, Demolition Man etc. (For the latter 2 you're hardly going to watch them for the acting or plot!)

28th February 2003, 16:09
Metal Storm are developing a modified Steyr for a role similar to the US OICW.

28th February 2003, 16:14
Jesus that look Sweet!
i wouldn't mind getting the styer if it was one of those!

28th February 2003, 16:23
Wouldn't like to end up on the wrong end of that!

28th February 2003, 17:18

28th February 2003, 17:44
Originally posted by John
Metal Storm are developing a modified Steyr for a role similar to the US OICW.

Yahoo!!! I know what I want for Christmas :D :D :D

28th February 2003, 17:47
I think the current type of ammo will be with us for quite a while due to it's effectiveness and relative cheapness.
However I can new propellants and materials/ metals being developed to improve performance.
Energy weapns will probably be the next "cheap" and effective solution once the technology has been developed to a decent level. It's also the one most likely to be sucessfully developed at the required speed.
However energy weapons have no warhead, so that is a major drawback.

28th February 2003, 18:02
I guess the most likely new type of new round to enter service with a major army will be fuzed rounds of 20mm + calibre, maybe in a crew served weapon.

28th February 2003, 20:22
The British are developing a laser type weapon, similar to ones currently used in eye surgery, but with a much longer range.

One flash will burn the optic nerve of enemy soliders, causing permanent blindness.


28th February 2003, 20:27
You're talking rubbish Rommel.

Those weapons have been banned since 1995.


28th February 2003, 20:39
jaesus look at that beauty!! imagine the damage i could cause!! mwuha haaaa haaa :D :cool:

28th February 2003, 21:26
Yellow jacket, what's your problem ?, calm down, take a chill pill, this is only a discussion board.

Anyway you're only partially correct.

Conventions or no conventions, these weapons are being researched.

The USE of many weapons, including undetectable land mines, are prohibited under international convention, but this does not mean that development research for 'defensive' purposes does not go on.

" Prototype systems consciously designed to exploit the ocular effects of laser emissions were . . . first deployed in a combat setting over a decade ago, in the form of the laser dazzle sights mounted on two United Kingdom Royal Navy frigates during the 1982 Falklands War." Although the laser dazzle sight (LDS) system had been commercially available since 1982, Great Britain stopped developing laser weapons capable of disabling enemy troops as of May 1995, because of international concerns. The use of these weapons was subsequently banned According to Roger Freeman, minister for defence procurement, "[the] UK forces do not possess, and currently have no plans to develop or procure, any laser weapons designed to permanently blind enemy troops or disrupt their eyesight temporarily. development and research into such weapons for purely defensive purposes continues, however "

21st December 2005, 15:48
180 round mag....1,000,000 rpm


21st December 2005, 16:29

They've been around for a few years.