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yooklid
17th April 2003, 20:04
I think that recruit training should initially start off with a certain level of active training. ie During the summer (to take advantage of summer holidays etc) all recruits go to a central recruit depot for say, 2 weeks of traing, where they learn the basics, how to march, saluting (very important) chain of command etc. At this point, it should be relatively easy to weed out the non-hackers and then reclaim and re-cycle their gear. The "distilled" recruit platoon is then sent on to it's unit to get ready for weapons trainging tactics etc....

Just my humble opinion!

T.I.M.
17th April 2003, 20:08
From what i hear thats the way we "might" be going..... But thats only from a P.D.F. Lt Col..... ;)

yooklid
17th April 2003, 20:14
Why not move the resources allocated for Camp to the BEGINNING of training? Recruitment process could be as follows

1) Individuals interview with Unit
2) Unit decided yea/nay and then sends them to recruit trainging depo
3) Training is arranged at periods which may allow ppl with civilian occupations
to get easier time off (easter, summer, Halloween)
4) Larger numbers of recuits all training together means greater economy of scale and efficiency for the recruit trainging effort.
5) PDF training cadre can thus give concise assesment of individuals etc. to units. + weather or not the may acutally be suited to that unit.

Any takers?

LordFlash
23rd April 2003, 14:30
Sounds clever Yooklid,

I think ideally that there should be recruit companies in each major barracks who concentrate on training FCA recruits as infantrymen, who then after recieving their 2* maybe 3* move on to their sponsor unit ie: MP's Medics Cav etc.
Bit like the PDF'rs.
Everybody would get a good introduction to soldiering,.... the veterans don't have to keep doing to same old crap because of the high turnaround, and the corps units can concentrate on their speciality instead of basic training.
The training would be centralised and all of the same standard regardless of corps for FCA troops.
Everybody would be of the same standard and classes would be large.

Loque
23rd April 2003, 14:42
We should replace all new recruits with an army of Super Highly-Intelligent geneTically-Engineered Soldiers (or S.H.I.T.E.S for short). We could delete the power of independent thought and program them to be unstoppable killing machines,we could also include some subroutines for square bashing, discipline,competence and a tea-making ability. I'm sure every NCO would love to have some SHITES to train.



p.s. This is a JOKE I'm not trying to piss off any recruits potential or otherwise, just trying to supply a bit of levity

trellheim
23rd April 2003, 14:42
Depot training tried several times.


It did work for PDF, but why are the PDF Inf Bns training their own ?

Can anyone offer reasons why it doesn't work for FCA ? I want to hear other people's thoughts.

hptmurphy
23rd April 2003, 17:49
I agree with the depot theory but how would it work in the outlying areas where aguy may have to be collected and how do you guarantee the level of attendance across the board given that we also have to contend with day to day acxtivities such as employment education etc....as I said like the thought but.....


on the issue of rturn of uniforms.....when I left the NS an officer was sent to my parents house eighty miles away in a landrover with a driver to collect....1 pair of boots.....1 dress cap.... 1 jacket No2s ... 1 trousers No2s and a white front.....subsquently all of the above ended up hanging in the barracks museum in Clonmel... bar the boots which he probably swiped as they had recently been soled and heeled and bulled....I had to sign a receipt for the above.

Docman
23rd March 2004, 18:20
[MOD: MERGE]

Having seen many different styles of training and seeing the differences in induction, is it not time for centralised training?

Imagine a system.
Recruits from all over a city (Country recruits can be bused in) are placed into a training company and trained together as a company. They follow the syllabus correctly and are brought up to 2* standard. They are then dispersed to their units. Some to signals, infantry, transport etc depending on their personal choice and operational requirements

What do people think?

Is it in the works and when?

yooklid
23rd March 2004, 18:29
I think this was discussed before....

MIA
23rd March 2004, 18:57
Standardised bulk training...would cut costs and make the whole system run a lot more smoothly.

goc132
23rd March 2004, 19:48
We did it last year for Western Brigade

mac dara
23rd March 2004, 20:27
The 25th inf did it last year, yet there is a kind of of inter coy thing going on.Say A coy slagging B coy and vice versa. almost every coy is different. which leads to great determintion when it comes to shoots and orienteering and the like. Centralising training would make sure recruits are all trained to the same level, which in itself is a good thing .

rod and serpent
23rd March 2004, 20:47
Centralised training, good idea that and how about a common military syllabus all recruits being taught the same thing and when they get to their designated unit they can build on their newly aquired knowledge. The TA are currently doing this in Birmingham, England.

schwarz
23rd March 2004, 21:15
Its a great idea, but why not take it a step further? Maybe 2 weeks in the curragh with mass training by experienced nco's, would it work? Of course they would have the sh#te scared out of them and would take to the training more enthusiastically. then when they return to their parent units they will have the knowledge they need and will not have to be babyed.:cool:

Cheetah
23rd March 2004, 23:30
Good idea.. I for one would have liked a stricter recruit training. There were too many sore heads and people getting sick from the night before going on..and tolerated. Two weeks in the curragh with strict NCO`S would weed out the people there for the sessions and keep the interested people staying on.

Ex-soldier
24th March 2004, 01:34
All PDF recruits are trained as infantry soldiers and only get assigned to a corps unit after completing all the infantry training. A recruit may have been trained in a barracks occupied by an artillery unit, but he will still be trained as an infantry soldier. The reason is simple. The corps units are all part of an infantry brigade structure and they must be capable of fulfilling the infantry role as well as their own specific role. In addition, they would not be recruiting enough people into the corps units to justify doing their own training. So, members of 2 Field CIS, 2 Field MPC, 2 Field CAV, 2 Field ENG, 2 Field MED, 2 Field ART, etc. are all part and parcel of the 2nd Infantry Brigade support system. These troops are used on a daily basis as infantry soldiers in addition to their corps role (with a few notable exception like medics). In my humble opinion, this training system should be adopted by the FCA too.

morpheus
24th March 2004, 10:11
I think that a few months ago, and Bailer, Queenie or T.I.M. can correct me if im wrong, that i heard my Batallions (7th Bat) companies are ALL sending recruits to recruit camp at the same time.

is this right???:confused:

DeV
24th March 2004, 13:11
I did my recruit camp after being in for about 7/8 months, only learnt about 2/3 new things, but it was a great week

Aiken Bks, Easter 1999

It was a Bde Recruit Camp, administrated by 8 Inf Bn, but with instructors from all the Infantry units in the Brigade, not sure about Corps units, student wise, all units were represented apart from 7 Inf Bn (think it was), there was about 100-150 students in all

Well organised & great craic

Kieran
24th March 2004, 18:40
Do recruits train and stay in their own brigade?

MIA
26th March 2004, 18:12
They train with whatever unit they're going to (unless they're cadets) but can move around if needs be.

somethingfunny
26th March 2004, 19:48
RDF recruit training

i think there are enough problems on a recruitment level as it is...i wouldnt be 100% on the figures and everything like that but it all varies from company to company...some people get measured for their uniform before they even finish their audiogram/medical...and some company's due to what ever delay cant guarantee time frame...so then your faced with (as we are faced with this year with recruit camp) that only a VERY small portion of the recruit platoon will make it on this recruit depot training.

also it wouldnt cater for people, like me, who work. your lookin at takin 2 wks annual leave to get on annual camp / rec camp and anything else that pops up and then you have to take another 1 maybe 2 weeks for recruit training.i would think the persons employer would be thinkin this person would be takin the piss...


just my tuppance...

DeV
27th March 2004, 15:00
my company have being going round the local schools around September/October for the last 5 years or so, this has been very successful in attracting new recruits, each year this alone results in around 30 people coming up to join

however the problems are getting audiograms & medicals for them

the best way to start training is to get a group of individuals be it 3 or 100, get them to start bonding as a group, do some of the basics (eg foot drill, wearing of uniform) and then send them on a camp

Centurion
27th March 2004, 17:01
Centralised recruit training was tried back in 1992 with the first female recruit intake. It worked very well (although I can only speak of the experience in Dublin). In spite of that, I would not be too optimistic of seeing it rolled out in the foreseeable future. The RDF BTC in the Eastern Brigade have already made it clear that they have no intention of running recruit training.

MIA
27th March 2004, 18:05
I presume your talking the first RDF intake? They did the same with the first females in the PDF too, though that was more because they didn't want to train them alongside their male counterparts and back in those days the army was still trying to figure out how in the name of God they were gonna fit women in.

DeV
28th March 2004, 00:08
something funny ...

There is nothing to stop people being measured for a uniform before audiogram & medical, it will fill in the time they have to wait for these.

But uniforms will not be issued from Bde stores until the recruit has an army number.

somethingfunny
28th March 2004, 00:15
I was just making the comparison between companies that are slower than other more efficient ones.

DeV
28th March 2004, 02:19
I found a few small problems with the centralised recruit training, when I did it. There were very varied levels of training of the students. As I have said, I had been a recruit for about 7/8 months when I did my recruit camp, while others got their uniforms on the Saturday morning. The students weren't divided into groups depending on ability, they were just thrown together.

No one on the camp did their TOETs or fire the rifle (FN at the time) which was a major flaw. This also meant there was no passing out parade or successfull completion.

I do remember the craic and the strict discipline, my billet of around 18 seventeen year olds had 3 corporals in it and we had 3 billet inspections per night.

billet inspections

MIA
29th March 2004, 18:10
Originally posted by Brian

But uniforms will not be issued from Bde stores until the recruit has an army number.
the computerised system requires an army number so as it can create a profile for you and track all your kit issues throughout your career...anything to save on the red tape I suppose...

JAG
30th March 2004, 13:51
Anyone know why not? seems like a much better idea- same standards everywhere.

When I left, footdrill and commands changed from unit to unit. When I returned fromt he POT I was told that all that Brigade rubbish didn't apply here. Of course, the footdrill varied even within the unit, so...

Is this still the case?

Goldie fish
30th March 2004, 14:03
In some units it can be. There is no excuse for this.

trellheim
30th March 2004, 15:08
there's one FCA Inf unit that's famous for this - and lo and behold it has a Meath catchment area... :)

DeV
30th March 2004, 16:25
They obviously don't have FD manuals in Meath

JAG
31st March 2004, 14:19
I have no idea. I was in two units, both in Dublin.

ackack
26th September 2005, 16:04
[MOD: Thread Merge]



I was just thinking that the rdf training for recruits, seem a bit haphazard at best, due to some recruits not being able to attend all training nights, This leads to constant repetition of lessons and no forward motion in the training.

I was wondering does anybody else think that we should run a recruitment drive before the annual camp each year, and have all the recruits attend this as their recruit training?

Or would it be better if recruits do pretty much the same basic as the PDF recruits, and then attend training nights.

Or would it be possible to hold a unit level recruit training camp in august just before we come back together after the summer break?

Just a few idea's,

What do people think?

Bam Bam
26th September 2005, 16:20
RDF training similar to the PDF recruit training would be ideal, but again

Joe Bloggs goes to his boss and says

"Sir I need some time off, I'm joining the reserve"

-RESPONSE-

"About 16 weeks"

-RESPONSE-

Joe Bloggs clears his desk.

DeV
26th September 2005, 16:40
Agree with you fully AckAck,

Training has to take account of the fact that things happen outside the RDF. Importantly most RDF recruits join around 17/18 years of age at a time when many of them are entering the most stressful time of their lives so far, the Leaving Certificate. Not just the exams and mocks themselves, but also all the study. I remember the weekend before my mocks started I was in a wood near Kilbride making sure no one stole a tent!

It is my firm belief that recruit training must be held at Battalion, if not Brigade, level in order to standardise training. Also that there should be a maximum of 2 intakes annually, in order to maximise use of resources.

There is a new recruit syllabus. I can't go into detail here but it consists of 2 modules. Module one is to be done on training nights, field days and weekends. Module one can be done over an intensive 2 month period (including 2/3 field days) having taken into account that many unit don't have immediate access to their weapons. Module two consists of a 2 week camp.

If you can tell the new recruit, well in advance, these are the dates & times come here then, chances are they can arrange work/study around it.

The major problem is the enlistment process:
Get all the paperwork filled out (including PPSN, birth certificate, references), audiogram (along eyesight, height, lung capacity tests), medical, security clearance, then getting an army number and finally a uniform. These things take time to organise and only limited places are allocated to each unit each month.

The process could run better if units did a couple simple things, including:
* measuring each potential recruit before they organise the formal test
* ensure that each potential recruit know not to listen to loud music etc in the 48 hours before the audiogram

I don't think doing the same recruit training as the PDF would work, yes it would be great to have the training behind you but honestly how many people would turn up on Tuesday night or whatever after that.

Personally I would see:
January - March: the enlistment process (it could begin earlier if required)
March/April - May: module 1
June: no training (exams & holidays)
July: module 2 & courses/duties
August: no training (holidays) & courses/duties
September: passing out & start of 3 star training

The Sultan
26th September 2005, 17:41
I was just thinking that the rdf training for recruits, seem a bit haphazard at best, due to some recruits not being able to attend all training nights, This leads to constant repetition of lessons and no forward motion in the training.

I was wondering does anybody else think that we should run a recruitment drive before the annual camp each year, and have all the recruits attend this as their recruit training?

Or would it be better if recruits do pretty much the same basic as the PDF recruits, and then attend training nights.

Or would it be possible to hold a unit level recruit training camp in august just before we come back together after the summer break?

Thats not a bad idea... Get your recruits to start off at a camp, as opposed to 4 months of tuesday nights. You would get alot more done. Im only guessing here, but I figure that marching and the steyr could be taught in 2 weeks of camp.

for the rest of their RDF career, use the tuesday nights to teach things like comms, ceremonial stuff, the bren, and of course, some fitness work too!

But this would only work if....
a)You got the recruits medicals done before camp
b)They were fit enough before going on the camp

Otherwise its a wasted effort.

I like your ideas though.

The Sultan
26th September 2005, 17:44
run better if units did a couple simple things, including:
* measuring each potential recruit before they organise the formal test
* ensure that each potential recruit know not to listen to loud music etc in the 48 hours before the audiogram

Personally I would see:
January - March: the enlistment process (it could begin earlier if required)
March/April - May: module 1
June: no training (exams & holidays)
July: module 2 & courses/duties
August: no training (holidays) & courses/duties
September: passing out & start of 3 star training

Dont forget to get them checked for colour vision before they go for the medicals! It would save alot of time, when I was at my FCA medical, 2 out of 5 of us were colourblind!

DeV, I like your idea of a two module program. Only one problem....As you have said, exams are a tough time for people.... And summer exams are the most important. So why would you have your primary module in March/April? Why not put it back to June, or do it right after christmas?

DeV
26th September 2005, 17:47
As i've said the syllabus breaks it into 2 modules. It also sets out what lessons are to be taught in each (its main very basic lessons that are covered in module 1).

Getting the very basic lessons, for example attention, ease, easy out of the way before camp, allows the more valuable camp time which is limited to 2 weeks (not actually a long time to cover all the subjects) to be used on more complex lessons.

Laoch
9th October 2005, 20:07
Centralised recruitment is essential. In smaller corps units the effort to train small numbers of recruits is stifling the units ability to do their corps training. Recruits should be interviewed as to suitibility before being assigned to the units. i.e. trainee healthcare people or those interested in such a career to the medics, IT/Telecomms people to the CIS Corps, builders, drivers to the Logistics etc... anyone falling in between the cracks could have corps determined by interview.

The current ad-hoc system is bullshit and the sooner it is realised the better the RDF will be, and the sooner it will be able to fulfill roles expected of them like overseas. It would also eliminate the them Vs us bullshit. PDF medics would take the RDF seriously if their reservist counterpart worked in A&E during the day, or CIS guy whose day job was working with Smart Telecom deploying broadband switches, or the engineer who wires houses for a living.

The Joker
9th October 2005, 20:17
The current ad-hoc system is bullshit and the sooner it is realised the better the RDF will be, and the sooner it will be able to fulfill roles expected of them like overseas. It would also eliminate the them Vs us bullshit. PDF medics would take the RDF seriously if their reservist counterpart worked in A&E during the day, or CIS guy whose day job was working with Smart Telecom deploying broadband switches, or the engineer who wires houses for a living.

Not true. You think that the PDF medics spend their days in and out of A&E.....

As said else where on the board, respect is earned. This can be achieved even if somebody doesnt work in A&E.

Some people specifically join other RDF units to get away from their civvie job.

Picture this. An EMT decides to join the RDF Medical Corps, the still have to go through recruit training...

Laoch
9th October 2005, 20:22
Point being ?? of course he has to do recruit training, it has nothing to do with medical training. It is the same in the CIS, we get people with degree's in Computer science, engineering etc.. but the military side of the CIS still has to be learnt. This is actually a net benefit to the soldier in his/her civilian job as it widens their experience for industry.

MINSTREL BOY
9th October 2005, 22:30
Centralised training is the only way to go.

The Sultan
10th October 2005, 11:59
Picture this. An EMT decides to join the RDF Medical Corps, the still have to go through recruit training...

As Laoch has already said...Your point being?

I back: Centralised recruit training, and putting people where their skills are (unless they dont want that!)

The Joker
10th October 2005, 12:07
As Laoch has already said...Your point being?

I back: Centralised recruit training, and putting people where their skills are (unless they dont want that!)

What I am saying is that some people who have certain skills in civvie street might not want to use them in RDF. Simply putting people into certain units will not do anything for the unit if the person doesnt want to be there.

Also, if you told an EMT that they could join the Medical Corps but only after they sat through months of recruit medical lectures. If it was me I think I would go else where.

But having said that, I do agree with centralised recruit training.

The Sultan
10th October 2005, 12:20
What if there was a system that made it possible for outside qualifications to be recognised by the Army, for people with any medical/educational/engineering/etc qualifications? It would/could sort that problem.

If only it would ever happen...

Big Al
10th October 2005, 12:32
Word is that a designated Bn within each bde is going to do all the recruit training, i'd assume they will be rotated with each different platoon.

The Prisoner
10th October 2005, 12:39
How centralised is "centralised"!

Is it at Bde level, Bn level or Coy level?

Eg take the new 58 Bn. It covers the area of three counties in the northwest. A very big area indeed. How would centralised traing work in this instance given the distances involved and the time available.

Any ideas? Or have I missed the point.

Laoch
10th October 2005, 12:46
Civilian qualifications by members of Universities Ireland, HETAC and FETAC are recognised by the army, (the army use these bodies to educate PDF people also), Officer education via NUI, Galway and NUI, Manooth, technician training via HETAC etc..

Laoch
10th October 2005, 12:48
Prisoner, The issue is more for the corps units rather that the Infantry. However I would think centralised training should be controlled by a Bde level authority like the reserve training depot and not by an Infantry Battalion who would have a vested interest in poaching the best recruits from the platoons.

The Sultan
10th October 2005, 12:57
As an add-on to Laochs post:


Eg take the new 58 Bn. It covers the area of three counties in the northwest. A very big area indeed. How would centralised traing work in this instance given the distances involved and the time available.

If the recruit training was done lets say, for 2 weeks during the summer, you would have a mass of 2*'s who could be assigned to their local unit. Its all about national standards (well, as it appears to me).

ADVANTAGES OF A 2WEEK RECRUIT COURSE DURING THEN SUMMER (run by a Bde level authority like the reserve training depot)

1)Weed out the wasters
2)Keep uniforms of people who drop out
3)They could get the best instructors in to train them
4)National standard (i love that term)

Any that I missed? And anyone wanna go for the Disadvantages?

The Prisoner
10th October 2005, 13:05
Laoch, on the issue of corps units, take your own. Now based in the east, midwest and midlands. What is centralised training?

Is it a conceptual idea ie a syabulus is prepared and approved by D/CIS and taught by the three corps units, individually, on parade nights and at weekends with maybe an annual corps camp to check the standard?

Or would the idea be to bring recruits from these areas to a designated location and do all the training there? How would all this be timetabled and logistially organised?

Or take my earlier post, the area of 58 Bn is enormus. Just look at the map. One centralised location would not work. I feel the coys should recruit and train during Autumn/Winter/Spring and then bring all the recruits on camp together and ensure the relevant standard has been attained by all.

Or have I missed the point completely!!

Laoch
10th October 2005, 13:05
Interviews to determine corps suitability / location could be conducted at such a training. An open day could be held where corps units showed what they do and allow new soldiers to make informed choices.

Laoch
10th October 2005, 13:15
Prisoner, I see the centralised part being initially most suitable for Recruit and career courses however to your point on the CIS Corps, it would certainly make sense to centralise elements. Take for example the new RDF Comms Operator Technician course which is divided into 5 modules (mirroring the PDF course with the modules making it more suitable for part-time soldiers to achieve). Some of the elements lend themselves very well to on-line learning while the more practical elements require significant hands-on. I would suggest that an organised central training (in this case managed by D/CIS office) for the latter would make a lot of sence. Two good weeks would put a large dent in any of the modules. The same could be said for Detachment Commander training where a pooling of NCO trainer resources would offer a more "national" implementation and allow for a sharing of ideas which would aid the "in unit" portions of the course over the winter months.

The Prisoner
10th October 2005, 13:31
Hi Laoch, I accept that your committment is 100%. I am not having a go, I'm just concerned that we do the best for the recruits.

In my humble opinion the recruits are the most important resource we have. Without them the whole concept of a RDF will wither away.

I am not familiar with the CIS training and I accept your points.

Laoch
10th October 2005, 13:37
Prisoner, I understand you are "not having a go", this is a good discussion and I would hope that some of the ideas from it would be implemented. Note that the CIS training I mention is AFTER the soldier has completed regular Infantry recruit training.

The Sultan
10th October 2005, 14:24
Or would the idea be to bring recruits from these areas to a designated location and do all the training there? How would all this be timetabled and logistially organised?

Or have I missed the point completely!!

This is why Im pushing for AckAcks suggestion of
I was wondering does anybody else think that we should run a recruitment drive before the annual camp each year, and have all the recruits attend this as their recruit training?

It would be better for a unit that is "Now based in the east, midwest and midlands" to get all their recruits into the one place for 2 weeks. As opposed to having units going over and over and over the same stuff becasue some people dont turn up on training nights(and hence, slow progress)

Or maybe its me who has missed the point.

Laoch
10th October 2005, 14:26
I think you have the point exactly.

DeV
10th October 2005, 14:41
Its not infantry recruit training - its recruit training, the idea is that everyone (from every unit infantry to medics) does the exact same training to get upgrade to Pte 2*, it is then that corps specific training is done.

Brigade HQ / the BTC has to have more involvement. They have to state targets for the units to meet.

Module 2 (the two week camp) should be run at brigade level with a small number of instructors from each unit. The units should be told the last two weeks in July (eg) all RDF recruits in the brigade will attend camp, if they don't they would be upgraded (and stick to it!). The CO must sign off that each recruit has done all the elements of module 1. If they turn up and its found that they haven't they should be RTU'ed and their CO taken to account.

Centralising module 1 at brigade (and in some cases company) level will not work the distances are too great.

The Sultan
10th October 2005, 15:54
If they turn up and its found that they haven't they should be RTU'ed and their CO taken to account.

Hmmm... I like this idea of accountability that you speak of.


Module 2 (the two week camp) should be run at brigade level with a small number of instructors from each unit

From each unit? How about geting PDF instructors in? Or at least have dedicated instructors fromt eh RDF, not the current practice of getting NCOs to do it.

Thorpe
10th October 2005, 16:46
I still say recruit training should be centralised but my confidence in has been dented after what our lads went through in Bere Island, we must cover half the course with them, it has to improve, thats all i`ll say on it

Itchy
10th October 2005, 17:35
How about geting PDF instructors in? Or at least have dedicated instructors fromt eh RDF, not the current practice of getting NCOs to do it.

You could kill two birds with the one stone here, whereby, each recruit does the same 16 weeks.

1. Common training through out each brigade.

2. An end to Green beret/Black beret shite.

Also added benefit of weeding out wasters, more respect, similar day-to-day jobs as PDF(Not that we would want them:biggrin: ) etc.

Most recruits are in education (3rd level/secondary) and would have summers free to undertake this training. Would result in young, committed and PROPERALLY trained force.

JAG
10th October 2005, 17:53
Regular instructors are the way to go, IMHO.

What currently comprises basic training?

To pass out as a 2* I had to, umm, do one ARP on the FN. Recruit training consisted of footdrill, arms drill, stripping & assembling the FN, stripping & assembling the FN, stripping & assembling the FN, stripping & assembling the FN, stripping & assembling the FN. Recruit camp consisted of one week entirely in barracks, stripping & assembling the FN, stripping & assembling the FN, stripping & assembling the FN, footdrill, arms drill, FRIT fire orders. Oh, and we ran about 200 metres for PT.

If this hasn't changed massively, then there is a major problem. Reserve soldiers must have the same standards as their regular counterparts, otherwise they are not soldiers but civilians wearing green clothing.

On the plus side, I'd be reasonably confident that I could still strip & assemble the FN in the dark.

Laoch
10th October 2005, 18:31
On a PDF recruit training I did one ARP on the FN. Recruit training consisted of footdrill, arms drill, stripping & assembling the FN, stripping & assembling the FN, stripping & assembling the FN, stripping & assembling the FN, stripping & assembling the FN, arms drill, FRIT fire orders. Oh, and we ran about 3000 metres for PT each day.

I'd also be reasonably confident that I could still strip & assemble the FN in the dark.

DeV
28th October 2005, 12:25
Hmmm... I like this idea of accountability that you speak of.

From each unit? How about geting PDF instructors in? Or at least have dedicated instructors fromt eh RDF, not the current practice of getting NCOs to do it.

You don't necessarily need PDF instructors, RDF corporals are given most the tools to do the job on their pots course.

What I would like to see is (for example):

1 unit provides the HQ personnel (coy comdr, 2ic, CS, CQMS, clerks). An admin party is organised to provide security, guards, kicthen staff etc.

Recruits are then spilt into 3+ platoons.

Each platoon with a pln comdr, pln sgt, 3-6 cpls, maybe an attached PDF advisor/instructor (to help the RDF instructors with things they may not be up to speed on and be a PTI). With 6 corporals, 1 can prepare while the other instructs. The instructors can be drawn from all the units in the brigade.

In order to ensure the proper standards are reached, the star tests are done by PDF personnel.

My recruit camp was similar to this, except for PDF involvement and the lack of star tests. It was excellent, even though I only learnt 2/3 new things in a week.

Others have described the centralised recruit camp on Bere Island, where the recruits were supposed to have done a required amount of training before hand, but many hadn't. I've previously said that module 1 should be done at unit level. To avoid this problem, module 1 could be done using the above method of a number (2-4) of long weekends (friday night - late sunday).

Unfortually for the south and west, this would be easier in the east as the geographical area is a lot smaller.

Bosco
28th October 2005, 13:47
Dev is right more w-ends to get them right into it.

Docman
28th October 2005, 13:54
Dev is right more w-ends to get them right into it.

That is not the answer. Some units will continue to send untrained recruits to Camp. The solution is simple.... If a recruit shows up on camp who obviously has not done Module 1, RTU them. It is what should have happened this year! Instead every unit had to be suffer because of what a few units did.

DeV
28th October 2005, 16:55
I agree with you, RTU them, but if module 1 was centralised as well, the problem may be reduced. The complete module 1 can be done over 2-4 long weekends.

Itchy
28th October 2005, 17:07
The whole problem starts when people show up willy nilly and all start training at different times and hence have different levels at the time of camp.

There should be fixed deadlines for the intake of recruits and the module started again when a new group has been gathered together.

DeV
28th October 2005, 18:39
Yes itchy but it may help if:

People are recruited during the year, go through whole recruitment process including getting army number. They are told the exact dates well in advance of:

Date for collection of uniform
Date training starts
Dates & times of field days / weekends
Dates for camp
Date for passing out parade

My idea is to compress the syllabus into 2 months of training parades and weekends, followed by a 2 week camp, this means that a lot of activity is cramped into a short period of time - allowing the recruits to organise their lifes around it and frees up resources (eg NCOs) for use else where.

One recruit training period, along these lines per year. If they don't turn up for any element they have to wait till the following year, unless they have a very very good reason - death / illness / exams. Then MAYBE extra training could be put on.

DeV
28th October 2005, 18:42
I feel the coys should recruit and train during Autumn/Winter/Spring and then bring all the recruits on camp together and ensure the relevant standard has been attained by all.

Module 1 of the syllabus isn't that long, it can be covered in 2 months.

ODIN
28th October 2005, 23:28
What about using the Curragh or somewhere similar, each brigade gets a month for their recruits and in the month everything is covered. I am totaly for the centralised training plan. I think it would be great to have every recruit to the same standard.
After that month 2-3weeks of a 3star camp with the people who have stayed since the recruit training, those who no longer want to be in the reserve return ALL issued kit.

Bam Bam
28th October 2005, 23:54
Is that a month solid?
Get the time off work for that, better chance of me applying for the stranger thing!

ODIN
28th October 2005, 23:57
I'm talking for recruits, in my experience recruits tend to be 5th/6th year students. Students need jobs in the summer, why not get trained and be ready to serve Ireland in the process, and with the rumored legislation for job security, why not have a month camp for the people who will train these recruits. Lets get serious about this thing people

Bam Bam
29th October 2005, 00:51
One will believe said legislation exists or is in the pipeline when one see's it.

ODIN
29th October 2005, 03:09
One will believe it is in the pipeline when one see's it.

DeV
29th October 2005, 14:55
with the rumored legislation for job security, why not have a month camp for the people who will train these recruits.

What rumored legislation? The Department of Defence says such legislation has NOTHING to do with them.

During the submissions on the RDF Implementation Plan, RDFRA looked for an 8 week recruit camp, we got 2 weeks.

duck
29th October 2005, 18:11
i was an instrustor for the centr. resruit tng on bere island this year. i would be very interested in anyones opinions on the quality of that training, from the recruits themselves or from their parent units.

duck
30th October 2005, 20:45
lets just say i spent way too long on that island.......! Wasn't at your units though. Grapevine says that one was fairly good.

DeV
30th October 2005, 21:05
DeV, I like your idea of a two module program. Only one problem....As you have said, exams are a tough time for people.... And summer exams are the most important. So why would you have your primary module in March/April? Why not put it back to June, or do it right after christmas?

Its not my idea thats what the new syllabus says.

June is when the leaving cert takes place.

DeV
30th October 2005, 21:20
i was an instrustor for the centr. resruit tng on bere island this year. i would be very interested in anyones opinions on the quality of that training, from the recruits themselves or from their parent units.

http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showpost.php?p=98083&postcount=64

The Sultan
31st October 2005, 16:52
Its not my idea thats what the new syllabus says.

June is when the leaving cert takes place.

Should have been clearer, I meant after June.


I'm talking for recruits, in my experience recruits tend to be 5th/6th year students. Students need jobs in the summer, why not get trained and be ready to serve Ireland in the process, and with the rumored legislation for job security, why not have a month camp for the people who will train these recruits. Lets get serious about this thing people

I doubt that any job protection legislation will cover temporary part-time jobs.

ODIN
1st November 2005, 10:12
Thats the point though, these people do not need there jobs covered as its only a part time number. The job security would be for 3 stars and up.

The Sultan
1st November 2005, 12:20
Thats just plain stupid. You cant make your job security depend on rank.

Your stutus as an employee is what will count. Part/Fulltime/Wholetime, Temporary/Contract, State Job/Private company. It WILL NOT have anything much to do with your rank.

The Sultan
1st November 2005, 12:36
Im pretty sure that job security would help for doing more field days/training. Dont even mention overseas (Next year, next year....).

Geansaí
1st November 2005, 15:19
As another instructor down in Bere Island, I have to say that the centralised training did not work. Some recruits knew the whole course before ever beginning and others had never even attended a training evening, never mind a field day. This led to the course movin away too fast for some recruits and away too slow for others, resulting in nothing but inadaquate training all round and headaches for the instructors.

The Sultan
1st November 2005, 16:13
Kermit, consider the roses smelt. I figure that if it does reach the Dail, it will cover these. They are aware that if the RDF are to go overseas, they'll need extra training.

ODIN
1st November 2005, 16:28
I agree, I was on Bere too this year. Every recruit was expected to know most things already, but none of them did. We had a plan for giving lessons for revising things these people had never done. Centralised Recruit training will work IF all recruits are completly new and have not been thought a thing.

The Sultan
1st November 2005, 16:39
I was wondering does anybody else think that we should run a recruitment drive before the annual camp each year, and have all the recruits attend this as their recruit training?

I agree Odin. Ackack said that a while ago. Its probably the best way.

ODIN
1st November 2005, 16:54
Only the DF can make this happen!! My suggestions would be...

1. An recruitment drive starting in April each year in the 3 brigade areas which would involve open days and serving members going to schools/colleges and giving talks on life in the reserve and the benefits one attains from service.

2. A recruit camp of at least a month long in each brigade area thats starts from scratch the second the new recruits get off the bus. Start with the basics, don't show them a Steyr until at least a week into the camp, at that stage they should at least know how to march properly and have a good chunk of the footdrill and other lectures on A7 done. After this continue with arms drill and steyr lessons to get them ready from TOETs in week 3/4. In week 4 give an introduction to tactics and cover the COD6 and other dutys lectures, maybe even get the recruits on 12 hour duties so they know what to do like the PDF 2 stars do. Finally get feedback from the people, see if they wish to continue, if not take back issued kit and thank them for their effort. If they wish to continue off they go to a 3 star camp for at least 2 weeks which will cover GPMG, Tactics and have a full exercise at the end(which would be good for the whole brigade).


It probly will never happen in this way, and I hope I don't seem like a walter. I will admit I have not thought through the finer points of this suggestion, but if other countries can train their reserves to the same standards as their regulars, WHY CAN'T IRLAND?!?

The Sultan
1st November 2005, 16:59
No, your no walter. That was pretty well thought out.


Finally get feedback from the people, see if they wish to continue, if not take back issued kit and thank them for their effort

Perfect. Few points.

I would throw in alot of fitness work into it too. and as for this...


If they wish to continue off they go to a 3 star camp for at least 2 weeks which will cover GPMG, Tactics and have a full exercise at the end(which would be good for the whole brigade).

That would be a long long summer for them. Maybe instead of a further two weeks (which would be ideal, but not practical) use the parade nights to get them up to 3*?

ODIN
1st November 2005, 17:06
Parade nights and field days if needed, but an extra 2 weeks would really bring them up to a high standard. And the fitness aspect would be a given. Starting easy and building up so the can manage a PDF standard fitness test too before the 3 star camp.

The Sultan
1st November 2005, 17:11
I agree, the 2 weeks would be ideal. But remember, some people need to work (ie, if they have left/finished school and are entering a trade, or for students who are going far away who have to save for acomadation etc.)

Actually, I just realised that ye all get paid for going away/camps/training nights! So maybe 2 weeks could work!

ODIN
1st November 2005, 17:14
And if people do need to go away, keep them involed if they are still 2stars and possibly run a 3 star camp in April, around easter for those who missed out in the summer so they would be up to standard with everybody else for camp in the summer.

The Sultan
1st November 2005, 17:16
Ya know what is annoying?

This all will never happen. Not unless a)someone seels it to some high brass and makes them think that it is now "their" idea or b)high brass decide they want a truely effective reserve.

ODIN
1st November 2005, 17:21
Or one of the lads monitoring the site says "hmmmm Col. Bob would be interested in this!!"

Ah I know it won't happen, the reserve may actually be taken seriously if it did and nobody in the PDF really wants that!!

JAG
1st November 2005, 17:44
A recruit camp of at least a month long in each brigade area thats starts from scratch the second the new recruits get off the bus. Start with the basics, don't show them a Steyr until at least a week into the camp, at that stage they should at least know how to march properly and have a good chunk of the footdrill and other lectures on A7 done. After this continue with arms drill and steyr lessons to get them ready from TOETs in week 3/4. In week 4 give an introduction to tactics and cover the COD6 and other dutys lectures, maybe even get the recruits on 12 hour duties so they know what to do like the PDF 2 stars do.

Genuine question: Are you taking the piss? Who gives a sh1t about foot & arms drill? A soldier's bread & butter is earned in the field, not in a poxy classroom. Run through the very basics as quickly as humanly possible in the classroom, then get out into the fresh air FFS. That's where you're gonna learn your trade. Not even going to start on A7.

And real fitness training- not the gentle jog, ten pressups and ten situps it used to be.

Not intended to insult, either you're seriously tongue in cheek or there's a huge difference in opinion on what basic training a soldier should have.

DeV
1st November 2005, 22:10
Kermit has said on other threads that the intend in the amendments to the Defence Act for the RDF will include being under military law - 24/7. If thats the case, you could be ordered on a monday to report for a duty in the barracks on a tuesday. If legislation is not put in place to protect my job and this is brought in .. I'm leaving, end of story!!

Legislation is vital to protect employment for attendance at training parades, field days, weekends, camps and courses, otherwise we will have a VERY small group of people who are well trained and are state / semi-state employees or are unemployed / self-employed.

ODIN
2nd November 2005, 11:35
Now JAG, what is the point of foot and arms drill, and the reason it is thought in every army, navy ad air force the world over in some shape or form?!? DISCIPLINE!!!
The recruits would learn their bread and butter infantry skills on the camp as well, but everything in the system I suggested would be done to a VERY HIGH standard

Laoch
2nd November 2005, 11:52
I agree with Odin_ie with regard to Foot/Arms drill. It is important for both discipline and also is an essential element of military tradition. I would suggest a multi phase approach.

Phase 1 (Centralised) - 2 week-end's

Foot-drill.
Arms-drill.
Rifle, stripping and assembly etc...

Phase 2 (Centralised) - 2 week camp

Interview (for skill suitability by independent board)
Rifle/GPMG handling drills/maintainence marksmanship.
Basic section tactical drills.
Patrolling.
Basic First Aid and personal admin.
Basic signal skills.
Basic engineer skills i.e. mine awareness etc..
Passing-out parade presentation of 2 stars.
Assignment to units based on interview and requirements.

Phase 3 (Unit training) - As required by Corps

Specialist training as required by Corps Directors.
Presentation of 3*'s

Big Al
2nd November 2005, 12:05
I understand that its different within the different Corps but how long would you suggest for Phase 3 Laoch?

JAG
2nd November 2005, 12:28
Now JAG, what is the point of foot and arms drill, and the reason it is thought in every army, navy ad air force the world over in some shape or form?!? DISCIPLINE!!!

I know this is the point of drill. The only point of drill IMHO. Only point of shiny boots and neatly pressed uniforms too.

But I understand (from conversation with someone who should know) that the TA reviewed their recruit training in light of the TA's involvement in Afghanistan & Iraq and future usage- basically turned around and said "Actually, now we've thought about it properly, we don't give a **** about drill. We just want reservists who know how to kill people."

Was my point.

ODIN
2nd November 2005, 12:44
Then you should have just said that. But on the other hand the RDF are not going to Iraq any thime soon, and I am full sure that berore anybody in the RDF is even considered for a tour overseas he/she would have to undergo a very intensive training course that would teach them how to kill people in a smart, uniform and soldier like manner and in such a manner it would even impress the TA.

glenbabies
3rd January 2006, 02:11
with all the reviews of the RDF is there a view to having all recruit training centralised or should like the in the PDF, battalions take over recruit training for all units? does this create problems where infantry unit A is teaching infantry unit B's recruits sending them the bad ones and keeping the good ones for themselves? does this mean unit B must re-train their own to meet their standards? does this mean unit A gets more resourses now that their teaching ( blanks uniforms money ) etc. what if unit A's nco's are poor can unit B attach instructors to help unit A with the training? what are your views? :smile:

Bosco
3rd January 2006, 02:23
Yes I believe it is a very good idea.
It will see problems but if it the resolve any issue that do happen to come up it will be very good.

The Joker
3rd January 2006, 03:06
units can also cut down on the time and energy and resources that are spent annually doing the same recruit training for 10 or 20 recruits..... they could instead send them to one of the infantry units and they can be slotted into a batch or platoon about to start and when qualified they can be returned to their parent unit for more advanced training

I dont agree. Maybe I have just missed your point. But there is no point just "slotting" them in, they either do it fully or not at all.

I would be more inclined for a centralised corp training camp rather than just an infantry one.

DeV
3rd January 2006, 18:46
Everyone in the PDF does the same recruit training, the same is supposed to happen in the RDF.

Bosco
3rd January 2006, 21:50
I would be more inclined for a centralised corp training camp rather than just an infantry one.

On this point I was talking to an engineer sarge on gaurd duty once and he was totally in favour of centralised recuit training.(Bear in mind this was before all talk of the re-org) He actually wanted people to join the FCA do their recruit camp and then be given a choice on what unit to go to, infantry or the different corps units.

ODIN
4th January 2006, 17:17
Did you want to be in infantry JAG?!?

JAG
4th January 2006, 17:21
Not really- I'm too delicately built for all that running around, heavy lifting, sleeping in the outdoors and all that crap :biggrin:

ODIN
4th January 2006, 17:40
You?!? Who has all the opinions on with is wrong with the RDF, never gave any of the fun stuff a go?!? :biggrin:

rod and serpent
4th January 2006, 18:00
Centralised training is a good idea, uniformity in training -no pun intended- recruit /NCO/trade training at the same standard and all brigades tainees train at the sameplace with reguler instructors.

DeV
4th January 2006, 19:36
As far as I'm concerned it is the home unit that should enlist the recruits. These are then sent on a centralised course. On completion of this course the new Private 2* goes back to their unit to complete their corps training.

Joker - this would allow corps units to concentrate more on corps training rather than having to run recruit courses.

DeV
9th January 2006, 19:17
It is greyfox, having seen the new syllabus, in Pte 2*s are bw able to do most of the jobs within a section.

DeV
23rd September 2006, 17:12
FYI - The powers that be have decided the recruit training can actually begin once the security clearance has come back.

--------------------------------------
Right lads, I've spent a bit of time looking at this and:

Recruit Module 1 can be covered in 5 training parades, 1 field day and 1 weekend. And that allows for drawing / return of weapons, breaks, movement between locations, meals, etc! Revision is already built into the syllabus.

In my view this allows a balance to be struck; the recruit is trained by their company during the training parades (they identify with their coy), and (if possible) the field day and weekend are centralised at unit level (they also identify and make friends within the unit as a whole). They also know what to expect from living in a barracks (or be it for only 1 night).

In a multi-unit barracks, the major unit could run recruit training in this way, but the recruits still feel they belong to their corps unit (as the corps unit also provide some NCOs).

They are then ready to go on module 2 (2 week camp).

---------------------------------------
This is what I would like to see:

During the period September to Febuary, the unit does a recruitment drive and all the paperwork is done.

1 Febuary is the closing date for applications, this allows for over a month for the security clearance to come back. Any applications after this date have their details taken and they are regularly updated as to what they would be doing and they are told come back next year.

The security clearance should come back in March at the latest (if the 1 Feb deadline is observed). When the security clearances come back audiograms and medicals are organised (ideally as a field day, with both happening the same day).

The whole unit recruit platoon is attested together on a formal occasion at the start of April(they are joining a professional organisation and have passed tests to get in after all - the could be at the end of a unit field day and the rest of the unit is welcoming them to the DF). In early April they receive their army number and kit issue. Module 1 is run over the months of April and May.

If recruits are not given the month of June off (for exams, holidays, etc) they can do revision of what they have covered already.

Module 2 is then held in July/August (it doesn't matter if it is Brigade run or not - although I am pro-this).

happenin
23rd September 2006, 20:56
Sounds like a good plan. Centralised training comes with its own problems inheriently but as long as they have module one completed before camp then does it really matter if it is run by the btc or the home unit?? A cut off date for the acceptance of recruits can be a good idea but if you turn ppl away and tell them to come back next year then you run the risk of loosing them all together.
Its a fine line that has to be experemented with to find the best solution imho.

happenin
24th September 2006, 01:21
Its all down to individual effort and ability. The training given on the course should be enough to bring everybody up to a specific standard. Not always the case thus A lot more things than just inf skills are taken into account in the course as well. such as attitude, confidence, ability with a class etc... All these things add up at the end of the day.

Laoch
24th September 2006, 10:46
the majority of your marks we for your performance as i/c of a section and how you conducted yourself out on the ground which is an inf thing, then moi, then gt's. but the point i'm trying to make is we can stll focus primarily on corps activites and still perform quite adequately in an inf capacity- but inf should focus on inf and let us al get on with our specific roles

Well said turbocalves.

DeV
24th September 2006, 21:06
Sounds like a good plan. Centralised training comes with its own problems inheriently but as long as they have module one completed before camp then does it really matter if it is run by the btc or the home unit?? A cut off date for the acceptance of recruits can be a good idea but if you turn ppl away and tell them to come back next year then you run the risk of loosing them all together.
Its a fine line that has to be experemented with to find the best solution imho.

The fact that so much is put into the second module makes the problem - it has to do on a 2 week camp - the only time that can be done is the summer. When else Christmas? But then again the unit can concentrate on other tasks.

An alternative could be to do Module 1 on Easter Camp, but then what does the recruit do between Easter and Summer Camps?

In my plan I've included centralised and decentralised elements - most of the revision periods are centralised so the unit staff can check on the standard of instruction. It could be centralised at BTC level, unit appointed by Bde or (as in my plan) recruit training in co-ordinated within the unit, as you say it doesn't matter. It just makes the use of scare resources (mainly NCOs and actual training time).

I think the cut off date, if done as "closing date for applications" would make it look like a more professional organisation. I'm not sure but I think that elements of the process have a time limit on them. eg an audiogram must be repeated if it is over x months old (I think I heard that). If potential recruits a told turn up on these dates for audiogram, medical, attestation, kit issue, training then that make it look professional. In the mean time, they should be kept up to date as to what the unit is doing and their status in the army system. The officers and NCOs know who to expect and when making their job easier and the recruit misses a lot of the bull**** that currently happens.

The Army Reserve HAS TO get away from constant recruit training, we don't have the resources to do it, ARPs, 2* training, 3* training, in-unit courses, external (bde & all army) courses, support for PDF exercises & duties, unit assessments, bde & all army competitions, etc etc.

spiderman
27th September 2006, 20:23
Dev, you make a lot of good points. Can you dig out the source of your info that training can start once clearance is done? Surely there is an insurance issue, not to mention restricted info to non-members? Can non-membersbe legally transported in mil veh in rural areas? I agree with you about what is required, but these are the things that will make it fail. Any ideas about these issues?

Truck Driver
28th September 2006, 12:52
Dev, you make a lot of good points. Can you dig out the source of your info that training can start once clearance is done? Surely there is an insurance issue, not to mention restricted info to non-members? Can non-membersbe legally transported in mil veh in rural areas? I agree with you about what is required, but these are the things that will make it fail. Any ideas about these issues?

Surely there is an insurance issue?
Certainly would be

not to mention restricted info to non-members?
The idea here is to impart non restricted info, e.g; intro to Mil Law, DFR's,
waering of the uniform, etc.

Can non-members be legally transported in mil veh in rural areas?

The only people covered to be in a military vehicle are:

Members of the DF
Members of the BFW
Someone driving the vehicle for the purposes of repair (e.g; servicing of a unit
m/bus by a civvy garage in rural areas - mechanic may need to drive the
vehicle for testing purpose
Carriage of casualties from an accident scene to a hospital
That's what I am definite about from Drivers' Standing Orders

Bravo20
28th September 2006, 13:34
Surely there is an insurance issue?
Certainly would be

not to mention restricted info to non-members?
The idea here is to impart non restricted info, e.g; intro to Mil Law, DFR's,
waering of the uniform, etc.

Can non-members be legally transported in mil veh in rural areas?

The only people covered to be in a military vehicle are:

Members of the DF
Members of the BFW
Someone driving the vehicle for the purposes of repair (e.g; servicing of a unit
m/bus by a civvy garage in rural areas - mechanic may need to drive the
vehicle for testing purpose
Carriage of casualties from an accident scene to a hospital
That's what I am definite about from Drivers' Standing Orders

Insurance, insurance !!! The most common reply from someone when they cannot give a reasonable reason for not doing something.

Who insures the army, can anyone tell me? Have any of you seen an insurance disk on a military vehicle. Please can someone tell me what insurance company the DF use because as far as I am aware government bodies insure themselves.

Truck Driver
28th September 2006, 16:00
Insurance, insurance !!! The most common reply from someone when they cannot give a reasonable reason for not doing something.

I think he's referring to the possibility of an individual getting while in Bks
It's a valid point, and would need to be clarified. People need to be covered
these days before doing anything, it's an unfortunate by product of the
successful times we live in, like it or not...


Who insures the army, can anyone tell me? Have any of you seen an insurance disk on a military vehicle. Please can someone tell me what insurance company the DF use because as far as I am aware government bodies insure themselves.

Correct - it's a State vehicle.

DeV
28th September 2006, 19:00
Can you dig out the source of your info that training can start once clearance is done? Hear it from a couple of sources - RDFRA and within my unit - but nothing on paper


Surely there is an insurance issue, not to mention restricted info to non-members? As others have said before, everthing in a manual is restricted however most it can be found from other sources (eg the internet or famously leaving certificate geography book. But I agree with you


Can non-members be legally transported in mil veh in rural areas? R5 (New Series) allows for the transportation of potential recruits (ie not sworn in yet) in military vehicles.

Barry
28th September 2006, 19:03
Of course, if the instructor has never even seen the manual of mapreading before in his life, then he can't really be accused of passing on state secrets. And military law is in the public domain, so there's no reason that can't be taught to recruits who aren't sworn in yet.

Truck Driver
1st October 2006, 21:00
Hear it from a couple of sources - RDFRA and within my unit - but nothing on paper

As others have said before, everthing in a manual is restricted however most it can be found from other sources (eg the internet or famously leaving certificate geography book. But I agree with you

R5 (New Series) allows for the transportation of potential recruits (ie not sworn in yet) in military vehicles.

From R5:

Authorised use of.
106. Vehicles allotted for duty to Units or Sub-Units may be used for the following purposes:-

(a) the conveyance of military stores, kit and equipment;
(b) the conveyance of military personnel when on duty;
(c) conveyance of civilian officials of the Department of Defence and civilians in
Defence Forces employment when on duty in circumstances where railway or
omnibus fares or car hire would otherwise be a charge on public funds;
(d) conveyance of potential recruits,
(e) for such military purposes as the Minister for Defence may decide.


Interesting, that. But I wonder how that tallies with the Drivers' Standing Orders?
Need to check that one out...

DeV
1st October 2006, 21:04
If they conflict I presume driver standing orders come first seeing the driver signs for the vehicle.

Truck Driver
1st October 2006, 21:58
If they conflict I presume driver standing orders come first seeing the driver signs for the vehicle.

Correct and right... :biggrin:

Bravo20
2nd October 2006, 09:19
Correct and right... :biggrin:

Not neccessarily. R5 is a DFR, signed off by the Minister and therefore has a higher standing than a Standing Order which is signed off by a Unit Commander/ or Director of Transport. Much the same as the Constitution is senior to legislation passed by the Dail.

trellheim
2nd October 2006, 10:10
Bravo20 has a a strong case.

spiderman
2nd October 2006, 19:14
but what might be a problem at the moment is that new R5 is not signed off yet.

Thanks Dev for your info, so maybe we're covered under a barracks' public liability insurance within bks, transport will be sorted out by R5 and the program only contains non-restricted material.

so we can do it once the unit ok's it

yay

DeV
2nd October 2006, 19:19
I was under the impression that R5 (New Series) was signed around 1 Oct 2005 !? Or am I part of an organisation that doesn't exist?

Bravo20
2nd October 2006, 19:37
There are two R5's. There is the R5 new series which was signed off last October that covers the set up of the organisation and certain fundamental functions, rights and responsibiliites. This has the status of a DFR which is signed off by the Minister and has a status similar to statutory instruments.

The second R5 is the Admin R5, that has taken all the sections that are subject to regular change (such as scale of issue) plus a number of administration functions (such as promotions criteria, the recruitment process and mileage claims). This has the status of an Admin Instruction which can be changed by the military as required (similar to a standing order). Unfortunately this has not been signed off yet.

ZULU
16th October 2009, 02:22
364. Deputy Ciarán Lynch asked the Minister for Defence the number of persons who attended training in each year from 2003 to date in 2009 in regard to the Reserve Defence Force; the number of recruits in each year; the number paid a gratuity in each year; the cost of the RDF in each year; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35625/09]


TABLE 1 RDF Personnel from 2003 to 2 October 2009

RDF personnel
2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 (Oct)
Who undertook
paid training
7,304 6,588 5,733 4,874 4,510 4,321 3,565
Recruited 1,987 1,377 1,069 1,124 927 1,037 488
Paid a gratuity*
7,189 6,267 5,447 4,528 4,068 2,392 56
* Gratuities are normally paid at year end


259. Deputy Arthur Morgan asked the Minister for Defence the number of recruits into the Army in 2009; the number of recruits into the Army for each of the past ten years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [36008/09]

YEAR NUMBER RECRUITED
2009 (To Sep) 0
2008 507
2007 565
2006 559
2005 384
2004 571
2003 436
2002 500
2001 827
2000 503
1999 427


Just wanted to bump this.


Can someone please explain to me, going by the answers the Minister has given, that the RDF needs to recruit over TWICE as many recruits as the PDF, and in one case FOUR times as many?

Astonishing to see that while RDF recruitment leveled out at about 1,000 odd a year (488 in 2009), the numbers who attended paid trg dropped from 7,304 in 2003 to 3,565 in 2009.

How is it even possible to train this number with the remaining NCO/Officer mix of the numbers being paid?



Even more astonishing is that over the past 10 years there has been on average 500 odd PDF recruits for the three services a year, and yet they are still trained in a decentralised manner across various barracks with varying levels of specific facilites and accomodation standards. And thats just for the Army.

For a monent lets look at the 500 ish number.

Our comrades in the Naval Service

Your looking at a NS of 1038 people (not including NSR) made up of
Officers 162
NCOs 485
S/m 391

Lets look at Officer recruitment first. Take the Cadet intake of 2009 - 12 Naval Cadetships

12/162 = 7% of the Officer Total

Now lets look at Enlisted. 19 passed out in Oct 2008, http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1017/1224108325474.html

29 passed out in June 2008
http://www.emigrant.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=58431&Itemid=58

Therefore 19+29=48

48/(485+391)= 5.5% of the enlisted total.

So in summary the 10-15 Naval Officer Cadets each year are taken first through the Curragh before finishing their Trg in the Naval Base and the NMCI. They represent approx 7% of the Officer total.

The 50 approx recruits each are taken in two batches each year and complete their trg at the Naval Base. They represent approx 5-6% of the Enlisted total.

All good. Central Training centre, common facilities (both civilian and military), great job.



Now we are left with 507 - 50ish = 450ish (for the sake of easy numbers)

We have the Air Corp and the Army left.


Lets deal with the issue of Apprentices now. These are in the areas of Aircraft Mechanic, Heavy Vehicle Mechanic and Fitter Armourer Apprentices.

In 2007 there were 454 applications and a total of 28 Apprentices were enlisted

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:Ne8MGslWlI4J:historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0658/D.0658.200807020046.html+cadetship+competition+200 8&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Apprentices are a unique bunch and as such lets leave them to playing with their tools and deduct their number from the enlisted total.




We are now left with 450 - 30ish = 420

ZULU
16th October 2009, 03:15
Where was I? Ah yes!

We are now left with 420 recruits

Lets have a look at the Air Corps



Your looking at an AC of 812 people (no reserve element) made up of

Officers 143
NCOs 374
A/m 295

Not since 2007 has there been AC cadetships on offer and in any case the numbers recruited will be only several.

Non technical A/m will be recruited in from the army as required but tend to be few.

This leaves a large amount of the apprentices recruited going towards the AC.

The training and instruction is mainly given in the Don so again, all good. Central Training centre, common facilities, great job.

For arguments sake, lets say that the NS ratios apply (5-6%) to the Air Corp for enlisted.
This means a requirement for about 30-35 bods a year. Most of this number will be made up by the Techies, so lets say 15 non tech a year for the AC

420 - 15 = 405ish. Lets round this off to 400 for simplicity.


Now, we come to the Army

1074 2905 4252 8231

Your looking at an Army of 8,231 people (excluding Reserve Element) made up of

Officers 1074
NCOs 2905
Ptes 4252 (Apologies Troopers and Gunners)

Again, lets look at Officer recruitment first. Take the Cadet intake of 2008 and 2009.
Between 30 - 35 Army Cadetships on offer.

35/1074 = 3.2% of the Officer Total.

Now lets look at Enlisted.

We have been left with approx 400 recruits for the three Bdes.

400 / (2905+4252) = 5.5% of the enlisted Total.


Happy days. Everything is looking as it should be.


But, how is it, that the Army Officers are trained in a Central location with the attached excellent facilities such as pool/gym, purpose built obstacle course etc etc etc, and attached training schools.

And yet, recruit Plns are spread the length and breath of the country in barracks such as those in Cork, Limerick, Kilkenny, Dublin, Curragh, etc etc.


Why is there not a central trg centre for all army recruits with the associated purpose built training facilites and resources?

The rec to 3* trg last 28 weeks. Lets say you that there was a central recruit trg facility.

The intakes would be phased in at 3 month intervals in 3 plns at a time. This would give a good 12 week seperation between junior and senior classes and also mark an approximate passing into 2* trg level.


This central purpose built training strategy is the norm across most professional armies around the world.

Australia
Australian Army Recruit Training takes place at The Army Recruit Training Centre (ARTC)
http://www.defence.gov.au/army/artc/index.html

New Zealand
Waiouru Military Camp All Arms Recruit Training (AART)
http://www.army.mil.nz/careers/parents-and-friends/training-recruit-crse-overview/default.htm

UK
Four Army Training Regiments (ATR) and then specialised schools
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_and_Training_in_the_British_Army

UK Royal Marines
Commando Training Centre Royal Marines (CTCRM) Lympstone

Canada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces_Leadership_and_Recruit_School

Singapore
Basic Military Training Centre on the offshore island of Pulau Tekong

USA

Army
Fort Benning, Georgia
Fort Jackson, South Carolina
Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri
Fort Sill, Oklahoma
Fort Knox, Kentucky

Marines
Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island, South Carolina
Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego




Just a little food for discussion
:wink::cool:

DeV
16th October 2009, 09:43
Just wanted to bump this.


Can someone please explain to me, going by the answers the Minister has given, that the RDF needs to recruit over TWICE as many recruits as the PDF, and in one case FOUR times as many?

Higher turnover of personnel in RDF
PDF are close to establishment, RDF are not


Astonishing to see that while RDF recruitment leveled out at about 1,000 odd a year (488 in 2009), the numbers who attended paid trg dropped from 7,304 in 2003 to 3,565 in 2009.

Turnover & manday cut backs


So in summary the 10-15 Naval Officer Cadets each year are taken first through the Curragh before finishing their Trg in the Naval Base and the NMCI. They represent approx 7% of the Officer total.

Don't forget it takes 2+ years to train them.


And yet, recruit Plns are spread the length and breath of the country in barracks such as those in Cork, Limerick, Kilkenny, Dublin, Curragh, etc etc

Why is there not a central trg centre for all army recruits with the associated purpose built training facilites and resources?

The rec to 3* trg last 28 weeks. Lets say you that there was a central recruitirg facility.

The intakes would be phased in at 3 month intervals in 3 plns at a time. This would give a good 12 week seperation between junior and senior classes and also mark an approximate passing into 2* trg level. Excellent idea, there used to be and it was closed, the PDF BTCs were supposed to do it.

WES
16th October 2009, 10:53
Excellent idea, there used to be and it was closed, the PDF BTCs were supposed to do it.

Which begs the question, Why don't the BTCs train recruits anymore?

BANDIT
16th October 2009, 12:51
It would make absolute sense to have all basic recruit military training including naval , air corps recruits in a central location. Select the best NCOs from line units as instructors and rotate them in and out every two years. Think of what could be achieved as regards common standards, disimenination of info, lessons learnt from overseas missions etc, basic economies of scale, Where, Curragh most obvious location , may be others also allow for less 9 to 5 habits , going home etc during recruit training, If it was well organized and run you could easily turn out thousands a year if necessary

knocker
16th October 2009, 13:19
Unreal , cant believ that practice happens at home. What bright spark decided to allow recruit training to be done at various locations ?

paul g
16th October 2009, 13:31
if they had centralised training, that wouyld reduce the rationale for the three brigade structure, and therefore reduce the number of senior management positions.

Goldie fish
16th October 2009, 13:44
Unreal , cant believ that practice happens at home. What bright spark decided to allow recruit training to be done at various locations ?

What you need to ask is who decided to go back to units doing their own recruit training. I clearly remember the CTDs used to look after all of it, and for a while the BTCs.
Its only in the last few years that units have begun doing their own.

knocker
16th October 2009, 13:56
Thats exactly my question dirthshirt. Paul as for senior management positions, am sure the " jobs for the boys " applies in the army aswell as everywhere else

Border Bunny
16th October 2009, 16:54
We dont need centralised Recruit training as most Barracks have the facilities to train new Recruits.

In a centralised training centre it will be alot harder to get NCOs and Officers willing to travel every day for 7 months to train Recruits, transport will have to be sent from units around the country to bring them to firing ranges and training grounds all over the country as no training area is large enough in Ireland to train around 200 at a time.

Most Battalions have their own local training area, firing range, NCOs, PTIs, accommodation, Section rooms, gym and transport to train Recruits. If its not broke dont fix it.

hedgehog
16th October 2009, 17:10
No it wont be harder to get Officers and NCO's

the following UNits will supply letters will be sent to all Units

as for the Tpt requirement- the recruits are going to require transport etc any way-

as for not being broke the CTD's used to centralise recruit training and way before that it was done

in the GTD-

its an economy of scale issue- I do beleive however that if 2 Bn have a Pl in training and likewise 5 Bn
etc- then if they are being trainined centrally the 2 Bn lads should be trained lock stock and barrel by 2 Bn NCO's and Officers as 2 Bn- likewise 5 Bn and the 27 Bn tribe-

that in itself would aid and build unit loyalty and esprit de corps-

as it is now we are not recruiting so moot point-

how do the lads with Baraclavea do it.

ODIN
16th October 2009, 17:10
In a centralised training centre it will be alot harder to get NCOs and Officers willing to travel every day for 7 months to train Recruits

They would have to be accommodated on site for the duration of the training.

Centralising recruit training would also free up NCOs and Officer for the Battalion to use seeing as there would be no recruit training going on in Barracks. Recruits would have the best of facilities in the Curragh with the gym, pool, and new obstacle course.

I think it is a good idea.

ZULU
16th October 2009, 17:41
We dont need centralised Recruit training as most Barracks have the facilities to train new Recruits.

I suggest you take a look at other professional armies recruit trg facilites. It makes Ireland a throw back to the 1930's. While there are improvements, they are small scale.



In a centralised training centre it will be alot harder to get NCOs and Officers willing to travel every day for 7 months to train Recruits, transport will have to be sent from units around the country to bring them to firing ranges and training grounds all over the country.

No. This is were specialised training staff come into play that are rotated through the DF every number of years, evolving all leaders skills, and also a place for lessons learned overseas and with PfP excercises to be brought into improved TTPs.


no training area is large enough in Ireland to train around 200 at a time.

Complete nonsense. I suggest you have a look on googlemaps of CTCRM in lympstone to see the size facility to train not only recuits but also Officers, NCO training wings, Infantry Schools and Special Forces also.

Training grounds are of course going to be spread around the country. They being the Glen and Kilworth.


Most Battalions have their own local training area, firing range, NCOs, PTIs, accommodation, Section rooms, gym and transport to train Recruits. If its not broke dont fix it.

Most not all. And what do the trained soldiers use for support? You know as well as I that a recruit Pln in Barracks is a major drain on available resources at all levels and they take priority over everything occuring in barracks.

Not all barracks have access to pool for specific military training. Not all barracks have 21st century training facilites such as Gyms/obstacle courses.

Hello Alaska
16th October 2009, 17:52
its an economy of scale issue- I do beleive however that if 2 Bn have a Pl in training and likewise 5 Bn
etc- then if they are being trainined centrally the 2 Bn lads should be trained lock stock and barrel by 2 Bn NCO's and Officers as 2 Bn- likewise 5 Bn and the 27 Bn tribe-

that in itself would aid and build unit loyalty and esprit de corps-



I agree with the above.

I was trained by 5 Bn and during training for most of us, the be all and end all was getting into 5 Bn. When we found out as 2 Stars that most of us were going to 2 Bn we were gutted, the 5 Bn was all we knew and what we wanted to be. We heard nothing but horror stories about 2 Bn, including from 2 Bn NCO's and were far from happy. You grow attached to the Unit that trained you... Getting sent to a completely different Unit, you don't feel anything for that Unit... No loyalty, nothing at all.

However, the first person we met from 2 Bn apart from the 2 NCO's that trained us was a top drawer BQ who gave us the billy on what to expect. Since then, I've grown to love the 2 Bn(Most of the time) in my own special way... And now I regard the rest of the DF as hats, especially 2 Cav and 5 Bn :biggrin:

knocker
16th October 2009, 18:14
Wouldnt it be better to pool all training resources and personnel, where NCOs and Officers can have input from their respective units ? If there are x amount of batallions that put forward their best to a central depot , then they bring their experiences, skills and own takes on training? Wouldnt it produce a more rounded recruit as opposed to an outlook based soley around one unit ?

ZULU
16th October 2009, 19:54
I remember reading something in Combat and Survival ages ago about the TA recruiting side of things. So I went through, lets say 3 ft of C&S and I found this. (Vol 7 Issue 12 March 1996)

Article on joining the TA.


"Selection Weekend"

If you get over the first hurdles, you will be asked to attend a recruit selection weekend. This is where the men are sorted from the boys.

Selection weekends usually take place at Spartan Army training camps. They are intended to introduce you to Army life, put you under mental and physical pressure. You will be assessed on your physical fitness, intelligence, ability to work as a team and response to discipline. The latter quality is basically how you respond to having sergeant majors shouting at you! Do as your told!

The weekend usually starts with the recruits being bused in on a Friday night. THey are then turfed out of bed at an unearthly hour on the Saturday morning and taken on the Army basic fitness test (BFT) which is currently three miles in 27 minutes. If you can't pass that then you are finished.

After a quick Army breakfast, the recruits are split up into squads or teams and put through a circuit of tests and interviews. These include doing assault courses, weapon handling, drill, command tasks where the team has to solve a problem, log races and a host of other forms of discomfort.

You must not get too upset by all this. It is all designed to see how you perform under pressure. If you keep smiling and give 100% and dont give up you will do OK. If you start whinging and complaining about why you are doing all these seemingly pointless tasks, you will do your self a lot of harm.

Most TA soldiers have fond memories of their recruit selection weekends, in a masochistic sort of way!

At the end of the weekend you will be interviewed by the RRTT officer and told how you have done. You will be accepted into the unit, told to try again at a later date, or told to find a new hobby.


Not a bad idea for both RDF and PDF recruits.

Hello Alaska
16th October 2009, 20:19
Not a bad idea for both RDF and PDF recruits.

Why PDF Recruits? We do our fitness tests and interview, then go on to do far worse than what's in that article for between 6-7 months before being told if we've been finally approved (assuming we're approved as Recruits to become 2 Stars) and then we move onto our Units.

ZULU
16th October 2009, 21:42
Why PDF Recruits? We do our fitness tests and interview, then go on to do far worse than what's in that article for between 6-7 months before being told if we've been finally approved (assuming we're approved as Recruits to become 2 Stars) and then we move onto our Units.

Its a screening measure to let people get a taste for what they are getting into before they commit to 28 weeks. They are not yet on the books of the DF, there is no wasted effort in assigning army numbers or full issue of kit etc.

The application process at the moment is an individual effort with no insight in how an applicant works as a team under pressure. A weekend selection like this coupled with personal interview would bring an altogether higher standard of potential recruit through to full time basic training.

Border Bunny
16th October 2009, 22:14
its an economy of scale issue- I do beleive however that if 2 Bn have a Pl in training and likewise 5 Bn
etc- then if they are being trainined centrally the 2 Bn lads should be trained lock stock and barrel by 2 Bn NCO's and Officers as 2 Bn- likewise 5 Bn and the 27 Bn tribe-
that in itself would aid and build unit loyalty and esprit de corps-


Why not just keep training them In the Brugha?

Border Bunny
16th October 2009, 22:39
They would have to be accommodated on site for the duration of the training.

Centralising recruit training would also free up NCOs and Officer for the Battalion to use seeing as there would be no recruit training going on in Barracks. Recruits would have the best of facilities in the Curragh with the gym, pool, and new obstacle course.

I think it is a good idea.

Would you volunteer to go to the Curragh for 7 months with no allowance for it or leave at the end to train Recruits?

ODIN
16th October 2009, 22:55
Would you volunteer to go to the Curragh for 7 months with no allowance for it or leave at the end to train Recruits?

If I was in charge of it, I would not be asking for volunteers, but I would be detailing people like those fresh off YOs courses, Std NCO courses, and PNCO Courses as instructors.

ZULU
16th October 2009, 23:04
Would you volunteer to go to the Curragh for 7 months with no allowance for it or leave at the end to train Recruits?

Its called Army life. The DF needs come above your own. It goes for being detailed too.

Saying that, some people would consider it an advancement in their careers.

And how do you know there isn't an allowance or leave? You get a period of leave every year. Are you really saying that after each and every job, you should get rewarded with leave or an allowance?

You might want to wake up to the real world we live in!

Hello Alaska
16th October 2009, 23:06
If I was in charge of it, I would not be asking for volunteers, but I would be detailing people like those fresh off YOs courses, Std NCO courses, and PNCO Courses as instructors.

Why?

They haven't spent anytime in their Unit or Overseas in their relevant rank.

It'd make much more sense to use experienced NCO's and Officers.

ZULU
16th October 2009, 23:13
Why?

They haven't spent anytime in their Unit or Overseas in their relevant rank.

It'd make much more sense to use experienced NCO's and Officers.

I'd agree with you on this one HA. Recruit instructors should be the very best of the bunch with both overseas and unit experience before being let into a teaching environment. There is a hell of a lot more to teaching best practises than meets the eye. In other armed forces there are whole schools to turn experienced NCO's into recruit instructors specifically.

ODIN
16th October 2009, 23:15
I retract my statement...

Border Bunny
17th October 2009, 01:13
If I was in charge of it, I would not be asking for volunteers, but I would be detailing people like those fresh off YOs courses, Std NCO courses, and PNCO Courses as instructors.

You want NCOs with no experience in their rank and young LTs to train new Recruits?

turbocalves
17th October 2009, 01:24
You want NCOs with no experience in their rank and young LTs to train new Recruits?

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showpost.php?p=274050&postcount=165

see here:rolleyes:

dahamster
17th October 2009, 11:01
[QUOTE=ZULU;274046]

Are you really saying that after each and every job, you should get rewarded with leave or an allowance?

/[QUOTE]

You obviously haven't spend a significant period of time in the curragh. Not a nice place to be stuck at night during the winter while on detachment from the south. Especially when caught for a weekend duty in the magazine as well.

Border Bunny
17th October 2009, 11:55
Are you really saying that after each and every job, you should get rewarded with leave or an allowance?

Thats how the Army works.
When away from your unit like overseas or in Portlaoise their is an allowance for it and leave at the end.

Jessup
17th October 2009, 14:54
That's a very short sighted perspective and a real problem in the DF. It's the real 'supermodel syndrome' that has crept in over the years. "I'm not even getting out of bed unless I'm on an allowance"

Let's say you're a Cpl in Galway and want to make Sgt. You get up off your hole and do a stint as an instructor on a course in the BTC or DFTC.

The other Cpls won't go because there's no allowance (or the allowance is very small) and there's no extra leave. Guess who is going to get the extra marks at interview. Will it be the guy who was proactive and got up off his arse or the negative nelly who preferred to whinge and stay at home?

knocker
17th October 2009, 16:45
Zulu
Just going back to your post about T A selection, the initial weekend is called a " look at life " - great way to sort out potential recruits over 2 days. The regular potential recruits go to regular army selection centres and do pretty much the same - ie fitness, intelligence and an ability to work as part of a team. Its another example of how centralised training works. As for training facilities in each battallion, they could remain and take on the role of a training wing ie have a dedicated staff to train the unit in all their annual tests, any continuation training and in house training prior to the pre deployment packages ?

hptmurphy
18th October 2009, 00:28
That's a very short sighted perspective and a real problem in the DF. It's the real 'supermodel syndrome' that has crept in over the years. "I'm not even getting out of bed unless I'm on an allowance"

Won't be a problem in the near future with the removal of allowances...just get on and do the job as paid for without an allowance

Hello Alaska
18th October 2009, 11:23
What about getting an allowance for a guard duty or Portlaoise, that's understandable.

However, an allowance just for training Recruits? No way. An NCO should fully expect to train Recruits at some stage in his career, to expect an allowance just for doing it is silly. What about NCO's instructing on courses or giving lectures back in their Unit? Do they deserve an allowance?

If that is the attitude, well then the DF should be given a major shake up.

hedgehog
18th October 2009, 15:35
If the recruits were trainined centrally in a BTC then the instructors would
be on instructors allowance-but thats beside the point

I have trained a few recruit platoons- some I got instructors allowance for some I didnt

its my job- I do what I am told

ZULU
18th October 2009, 21:04
Just to give another example of how it should be done

This is Canada's basic training and leardership facility. It is responsible for training ALL who enter the Canadian Armed Forces, Officers and Enlisted alike. Just like Lympstone for the Royal Marines.

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The Staff comprises of 34 Officers, 308 NCO's and 25 Civilians.

The turn out of the Schools is approx 4,800 enlisted candidates and 1,200 Officer Candidates a YEAR!

So if Ireland has 500 enlisted, and 45 Cadets each year then you'd be looking at a staff of less than a third of this number!

ZULU
16th November 2009, 17:55
Just a thought

Like the USMC and RM,

For basic recruit to 3* training, why not take in applicants for both PDF and RDF service for the 28 weeks.

Those that are going PDF - Stay on and continue their careers in the DF,

Those that are going RDF - Go back to their weekend and 2 weeks a year training regime and are obliged to give x years service or they can purchase their way out if wanted.

You try and target people who have finished their studies/apprenticeship in skills required or valuable to DF.
You are able to train all to the same base standard. Any specialist training courses after this are modularised anyway and fit both PDF and RDF.

Pre recruitment ban the average enlisted recruit intake was 500 bods all services.

Look at a Reserve of 1/3 the size of the PDF and you'd be looking for about 150 a year extra for RDF.

During recruitment days for RDF, the figures are about 1,000 recruits were signed up every year.

1000 x 2 weeks = 2000 weeks

2000 weeks divided by 150 bods = 13 weeks

2000 weeks divided by 100 bods = 20 weeks.


Costs slightly more in terms of kit (that they should have anyway) and some admin, but in terms or return works out the same.

Thoughts?

ArdMhacha
16th November 2009, 18:05
I like it, it ensures that everyone is at least trained to the same standard

dingo42
16th November 2009, 18:06
Just a thought

Like the USMC and RM,

For basic recruit to 3* training, why not take in applicants for both PDF and RDF service for the 28 weeks.

Those that are going PDF - Stay on and continue their careers in the DF,

Those that are going RDF - Go back to their weekend and 2 weeks a year training regime and are obliged to give x years service or they can purchase their way out if wanted.

You try and target people who have finished their studies/apprenticeship in skills required or valuable to DF.
You are able to train all to the same base standard. Any specialist training courses after this are modularised anyway and fit both PDF and RDF.

Pre recruitment ban the average enlisted recruit intake was 500 bods all services.

Look at a Reserve of 1/3 the size of the PDF and you'd be looking for about 150 a year extra for RDF.

During recruitment days for RDF, the figures are about 1,000 recruits were signed up every year.

1000 x 2 weeks = 2000 weeks

2000 weeks divided by 150 bods = 13 weeks

2000 weeks divided by 100 bods = 20 weeks.


Costs slightly more in terms of kit (that they should have anyway) and some admin, but in terms or return works out the same.

Thoughts?


Makes perfect sense I think.

luchi
16th November 2009, 18:14
How do you make out that in terms or return it works out the same?

Lets make the assumption that everyone that applies is 100% fit and able and totally committed to the cause.

And so it would be a case of when rather than if they complete their 28 weeks, what wil they actually do to repay the state for the training they get.
They are not going over seas.
SO what will they be permitted to do here.

Now bare in mind that both the Gov and the MA have stated they will not do any thing to change the RDF's voluntary status or ethos.

I am 100% behind the idea. In fact it is done in some other countries but the reservists have a real role in those countries.

As far as I can see you would be better off just recruiting an extra 150 to the PDF. Tell them they will be contineously assessed and only the top 500 will be retained.
The following year then take only 500 recruits and at the end of their training those 500 can compete with the previous years 150 for the 500 PDF places.
You could even put in some terms of service like they must do a certain number of weekend duties, some CIT work and a training excercise or two.

If someone does not suceed to get into the PDF after 5 years then its bye-bye and an extra recruit can be taken on the following year to replace them.

concussion
16th November 2009, 18:21
Australian DF Reserves have the option of a 28 day Reserve course or the full 80 day Regular recruit course aswell.

ZULU
16th November 2009, 18:39
Now bare in mind that both the Gov and the MA have stated they will not do any thing to change the RDF's voluntary status or ethos.
.

General election before 14 July 2012

New white paper on defence 2011

One of the most critical budgets in the state 5 Dec 2009

Lisbon Treaty Dec 2009


A lot is happening or going to happen that can change a lot of attitudes adn ways of thinking.

DeV
16th November 2009, 18:50
How are you going to pay for it?

Bam Bam
16th November 2009, 18:52
RDF will spend its time making lanyards to fund the effort

Jessup
16th November 2009, 19:18
Australian DF Reserves have the option of a 28 day Reserve course or the full 80 day Regular recruit course aswell.

Are they treated equally by the ADF afterwards?

concussion
16th November 2009, 19:28
I can't comment on specifically on that, I do know that Reservists are deployed in the Soloman Islands and East Timor and troops from 1st Commando Regiment (Reserve) are in Afghanistan.

luchi
16th November 2009, 21:55
I don't know how many elections and treaties that heve gone by in the 29 years that I've been in the reserve but TBH I don't remember a single time that the RDF/FCA was given even notice on any party manifesto.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't going over seas on a white paper too????:rolleyes:

A budget that needs to save every penny would more than likely scrap the RDF if it could. Certainally not increase spending on it.

And weren't all our politicians (main stream anyway) not all telling us that Lisbon had nothing to do with Defence or military spending.

Maybe things are different in the south but the only people around here that see any need for the RDF is the RDF.

paul g
16th November 2009, 22:08
Friends of mine, who were in the territorial army, got sent out to Iraq to run British army prisons after the alleged abuse of detainee's by british soldiers, they posessed a skill that regular solders don't, how to run a civilian prison. Perhaps the reservists in the Solomon islands are the same.

The reserve should be there to provide a strategic resource to the PDF, and its members do often posess skills from civilian life that are invaluable, and i would favour a smaller reserve, along with something more akin to the Cadet force in the UK to replace the present force, which sounds very good on paper but doesn't work very well.

Reserves are not there however to suplement infantry in the PDF ( which up to 1969 was often the case), because otherwise that's a slippery slope to cuts in the defence budget.

knocker
16th November 2009, 22:20
The cadet force ? Replace the RDF with an organisation whose members range in age from 12 to 18 and whose instructors range from 18 to 55 . Awesome idea

paul g
16th November 2009, 22:36
The cadet force ? An organisation whose members ages range from 10 to 50 - awesome idea paul, well done

"Along with", being the operative words. it works in the UK, TA/CF.

knocker
16th November 2009, 22:38
No it doesnt work with the T A , thats why they are going to have some very big changes in the not distant future

luchi
16th November 2009, 22:46
Thats all very interseting but IFAICS there isn't the ploitical will to change.

Many Irish voters probably don't know the first thing about the RDF.

ANd lets face it given the choice of putting 50c on medical card perscriptions or abolish the RDF. Seriously which does anyone think joe public would vote for the RDF?

ZULU
18th November 2009, 16:52
How are you going to pay for it?

Rank Total Pay /week Pay/day Mandays Totals

Pte 2* 150 €434.58 €62.08 12600 €782,244.00
Rec 150 €352.21 €50.32 16800 €845,304.00

TOTAL €1,627,548.00



This is based on a staggered through put of personnel. With Recruits initial training being 16 weeks, before advancement to 2*. From there they are paid at 2* rates for 12 weeks.

Might seem a lot but look at what ou get in return

You now have 150 Reserve Ptes trained to exactly the same standard as a PDF Pte out of basic training. You keep and advance this standard by conducting continuation trg 2 weeks and 9 weekends for subsequent years, with additional trg to cover career courses.

You target potential recruits based on their possible future civilian qualifications - Fitters, nurses, doctors, mechanics, electricians, engineers etc.

You now have a pool of potentially in-demand civi skills coupled to PDF standard combat effectiveness, without the the costs of wages other than when they are training with DF, pensions, allowances (apart form o/s) etc.



Another point:

If you go with the Integrated reserve model:

Cut the high end officer establishment (Capt and above) along with CQMSs/BSMs and make them PDF positions (i.e - use cadre and SWAs) Your already paying for them in the PDF pay sub head. Why not fully utilise them. Cut the mileage allowance and Cadre allowance = further savings.

Your total cost of running the reserve element for 33 days a year is now

€6,047,328


Combine the centralised recruit training and the reserve element explained above and you get:

Total = €7,674,876 basic pay (including tech and instr pay)

+ Grat (non-int rates) = €1,325,295 (recruits in 28 weeks initial trg dont get grat)


NSR costs at current establishment comes out at:

Total €982,886 (Basic pay + tech/instr)

+ grat = €207,000



All in all, a million times money better spent than the several years of 10 million + a year spent on the Reserve

Truck Driver
18th November 2009, 17:27
NSR costs at current establishment comes out at:

Total €982,886 (Basic pay + tech/instr)

+ grat = €207,000

€1.1m to run the NSR - I had no idea that it was that low !

Having said that, the approx strength of the NSR is 400 or so

luchi
18th November 2009, 17:41
YOu still haven't answered my earlier question of
what is the return?
how will the DF benifit from this?

Unless you are going to allow and expect RDF to do
Cash and prisioner escourts
Barrack security duties
Boarder duties
and any other job that currently pays the PDF extra but expect the RDF to do it for basic rate ther is no gain to the DF.

You are justr training 150 bods to a higher standard for nothing.
THis woulld be great for those bods but of no advantage to the service.

Another issue you have ignored is how often do you recruit?
You are expecting all the bods to serve their full term so do yuo intend to clean out house ever 5 years?

ZULU
18th November 2009, 17:56
YOu still haven't answered my earlier question of
what is the return?
how will the DF benifit from this?

Unless you are going to allow and expect RDF to do
Cash and prisioner escourts
Barrack security duties
Boarder duties
and any other job that currently pays the PDF extra but expect the RDF to do it for basic rate ther is no gain to the DF.

You are justr training 150 bods to a higher standard for nothing.
THis woulld be great for those bods but of no advantage to the service.

Another issue you have ignored is how often do you recruit?
You are expecting all the bods to serve their full term so do yuo intend to clean out house ever 5 years?

The return is valuable civi skills required by DF for use in overseas/internal operations from persons who are at the very least trained to equivalent PDF 3* standard.
Reservists dont qualify for service allowance or increases in basic pay due to years served anyway. Thats fair enough due to the time served. (However - if the total time served due to operations,training while in the same rank does add up, they should be advanced in pay).

If this recruit trg and integrated concept was introduced, do you think CITs / Border duties whould be so far fetched then?


Your training people to a higher standard to remove the foundations of arguements from RACO/PDF in that they have problems with reservists being a liability due to their low standards in comparison.

You recruit when neccassary. Initial start up will be maxed out to 150 but subsequent years will see a drop off in this once it is up and running. You'll just have to recruit for drop off then.

Contracts will have to be designed so that during their obligatory attendance at training, some form of return is worked out, be it either overseas service or domestic service.
Same way o/s is mainly voluntary but there are a few positions that ae detailed. Saem goes for Reserve.

luchi
18th November 2009, 18:01
Yes but you are making the massive assumption that the RDF will be used overseas.
What would give a return would hit the pay packets of the PDF and thats not going to happen.

ZULU
18th November 2009, 18:22
Yes but you are making the massive assumption that the RDF will be used overseas.
What would give a return would hit the pay packets of the PDF and thats not going to happen.

Using RDF overseas would allow an increase in the maximum allowed overseas, that of 850 being 8% of 10,500. This opens up the CAPACITY nad POTENTIAL for more PDF to serve overseas, be it on joint training or Ops.

How can it it pay packets of PDF when there might not be qualified people in the DF required for overseas in the first place?

luchi
19th November 2009, 09:40
You must have missed the posts were some of the PDF lads have posted that the number going overseas is being reduced and that there was no shortage of skilled pers applying.

I don't understand the numbers you used.
If the DF need 850 pers, then if some of them are RDF then that means less PDF will be going not more.

One skill for O/S the they looked from the RDF was driving. Since then TVMS has qualified far more PDF drivers to DROPS and Artic standard. HJence no longer a shortage.
Another key skill is medical. Unless you are going to set up a coy in the college of surgeons I cant see the RDF inpacting on this.
IMHO untill the real pain of the recession hits engineers you wont get too many of them going OS for the love of the state.

So now that O/S is ruled out and TBH dead and buried that only leaves duties.
If an RDF man is doing a duty he does not get the SDA.
He also prevents a PDF man from doing that duty and getting the SDA for it.
Hence for every RDF man that does a duty the DF saves mone that would normally be in a PDF man's pocket.

Vickers
19th November 2009, 11:26
If an RDF man is doing a duty he does not get the SDA.
He also prevents a PDF man from doing that duty and getting the SDA for it.
Hence for every RDF man that does a duty the DF saves mone that would normally be in a PDF man's pocket.

Two points:

1. AFAIK an RDF person doing a duty for which an SDA allowance is payable is entitled to that allowance. This does not apply to AT as such duties are regarded as part of training.

2. Even if the RDF person does not get SDA, they are paid. The DF still pays the PDF person. Therefore the DF does not make a saving - it costs more.

luchi
19th November 2009, 13:16
Normally members of the RDF are on Training when being paid.
With very few exceptions therefore SDA is with held for this reason but you are correct if there was the will it could be changed.

And yes the army is still paying the guy normal pay but he is still down 1 duty and hence SDA for that week. How many times a month will this happen?

Also if Pte x is a PDF mechanic and does a duty on the weekend Sat to Sun say, then doesn't he have monday off. So there needs to be someone there to do his work.
Someone else has to do his work on monday.
Now if Pts x is an RDF man then everyone goes to work on monday as normal. So now calculate the number of soldiers that would be no longer required. Again hitting the pockets of the PDF

ZULU
7th January 2010, 21:59
The Army Reserve is a part-time job like no other. It provides New Zealanders with a unique challenge and set of experiences that cannot be found anywhere else. The Army Reserve offers leadership training, weapon handling techniques and many other practical skills which you can apply in your every day life. Whether your everyday life involves accounting, brick-laying or customer service – the Army Reserve will give you a new confidence, a new outlook and new mates.

We are currently looking for candidates to form the next Army Reserve intake. Places are limited however and you will need to show us that you can move fast, as your application will need to be in before 6 November 2009.

You will also need to be able to commit to an initial 7 weeks of training which begins 13 February 2010.

Once this course has been completed, you will need to commit to a minimum of 20 days service per year. This typically means one weekend per month

Buck
9th January 2010, 20:43
The Army Reserve is a part-time job like no other. It provides New Zealanders with a unique challenge and set of experiences that cannot be found anywhere else. The Army Reserve offers leadership training, weapon handling techniques and many other practical skills which you can apply in your every day life. Whether your everyday life involves accounting, brick-laying or customer service – the Army Reserve will give you a new confidence, a new outlook and new mates.

We are currently looking for candidates to form the next Army Reserve intake. Places are limited however and you will need to show us that you can move fast, as your application will need to be in before 6 November 2009.

You will also need to be able to commit to an initial 7 weeks of training which begins 13 February 2010.

Once this course has been completed, you will need to commit to a minimum of 20 days service per year. This typically means one weekend per month

for a second there i was confused, i didnt read the title line on your post :biggrin:

"what are we just taking in kiwis now?!"

DeV
16th January 2010, 19:21
The TA are now training recruits over 6 modular weekends at regional training centres (bde level) followed by 2 weeks.

Truck Driver
17th January 2010, 10:28
The TA are now training recruits over 6 modular weekends at regional training centres (bde level) followed by 2 weeks.

With NO training nights ?

bunny shooter
17th January 2010, 13:10
The TA are now training recruits over 6 modular weekends at regional training centres (bde level) followed by 2 weeks.

Be the way to do it IMHO

DeV
17th January 2010, 13:34
With NO training nights ?

It would appear they are still done but aren't formally part of recruit training.

RoyalGreenJacket
17th January 2010, 15:41
Training nights are a waste of time.

If the cap fits - wear it...

DeV
11th August 2010, 21:39
This is what are NZ cousins have to do training wise, could it work here (yes except for mandays and legislation?):

Recruits (58 days in 4 consecutive module / over 2 years):
Module 1 - Intro - 2 days
Module 2 - Individual Skills - 21 days - includes weapons handling, marksmanship, first aid & navigation
Module 3 - Section Phase - 21 days - team soldiering skills, patrolling, hand signals, section level tactics, M203, LAW, passing out parade
Module 4 - Pln Phase - 14 days in field - section & platoon ops (rural & urban)

If done correctly, I think it could be quite achievable to get AR recruits to do something similar over weekends and 2x14 day FTT over 2 years (ie to get to Pte 3*). 1 weekend a month (make one of them a 4 day camp over Easter) plus 14 days FTT could get an AR soldier 40 days training annually! That would bring us very close to PDF 3* (but obviously a bit would have to be left out (or complete it over 3 years). Alternatively we could do the 2 years (to Pte 3*) and then complete modules over years 3 & 4 (eg signals, M203, SRAAW, first aid etc etc).




Officers (direct entry not from the ranks):
Officer selection - 5 days
Initial Officer Training (completed by both regular & reserve) - 6 weeks - basic mil skills (including navigation, weapon handling, voice procedure etc)
Between these elements you do a year of normal unit training (ie min 20 days)
Army Reserve Commissioning Course - 7 weeks - leadership, tactics, comms, weapons, fieldcraft

If we were to continue to the present system of only NCOs it would be quite achievable but for us to do direct entry would take up a lot of mandays. Maybe if we said Pte 3*?

There is a scheme for a small number of people to do the above plus get sponsored through 3 years of college.

They have a pre-joining fitness test.
They have to attend min 20 days annually (3 hour training parades / weekends / courses / annual ex), it looks as if all is paid.
They sign on for an initial 6 years (can leave at any time).
They can take a leave of absence of 3 months - 2 years.
They can volunteer for overseas service. They are taken on a full-time contract, including pre-deployment training a 4 month tour lasts around 6 months and a 6 month tour lasts around 9 months).
Their employer must give them up to 21 days unpaid leave for training parades, weekends, annual ex plus up to 90 days unpaid leave for recruit/officer training or short term overseas work (subject to giving 14 days verbal notice (28 days written for overseas).

Liachta Cultaca
12th August 2010, 11:49
Training nights are a waste of time.

I agree

The NZ model or TA model looks good.. anything is better than the current RDF format for training soldiers.

ZULU
27th August 2010, 15:31
With the impending new recruitment by the Defence Forces coming in have a look at how the Royal Marines do theirs. Much of what they have at CTC is in place in the Curragh. With development at Gormanston you would have the same albeit more modern.



Commando Training Centre Lympstone


Commando Training Centre Royal Marines (CTCRM) is the principal military training centre for the Royal Marines of the British Armed Forces. It is situated near the village of Lympstone, between the city of Exeter, and the town of Exmouth in Devon. The centre delivers new entry training to recruits and officers, as well as specialist trade training and command course for Non-commissioned officer (NCO), and officers of the Royal Marines, Royal Marines Reserve, Special Forces snipers, and the wider armed forces.

Facilities at Lympstone are wide ranging. They include, a first class gymnasium complex and swimming pool for combat swimming tests, an indoor range simulator incorporating the latest laser technology, a nearby 300 metre rifle range to assist Recruits in their shooting skills and on site training areas within the 95 acre base. In addition CTCRM has access to 2,500 acres of nearby Woodbury Common, as well as the training areas of Dartmoor and others in Wales and Scotland.

The combination of management and infrastructure oversees the training of, on average, 1,200 recruits per year, as well as 2,000 potential recruits who will attend acquaint courses and 400 potential officers. In addition the Training Wings run upwards of 320 courses a year for a further 2,000 students.



http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5419&stc=1&d=1282915851

RoyalGreenJacket
27th August 2010, 20:26
it's a nice idea but you need decent accommodation blocks, leisure facilities and a good gym at any training depot. i don't think Gormanstown has any of these and it would probably cost a hell of a lot of money to put into place, not to mention the Assault Course.

for the amount the Irish DF recruit and train i don't think it would be justified and i think they do quite well with what they have now.

DeV
27th August 2010, 21:12
Accommodaition isn't bad in Gormo

X-RayOne
27th August 2010, 21:56
the only things gormonston is missing in comparison to lympstone is a purpose built gym building and the "leisure facilities". everything else is comparable.

and at that there is plenty of space for a new gym building within the camp grounds.

as for "leisure facilities".....when i trained i didn't have time to be going to leisure facilities and would have been too tired to be down at the video games each night :-D

both facilities only seem to be lacking major tactical training areas within their foot print. but again both have areas within easy driving distance.

RoyalGreenJacket
27th August 2010, 22:00
the only things gormonston is missing in comparison to lympstone is a purpose built gym building and the "leisure facilities".

is the Assault Course at Gormanstown as notorious as that of Lympstone?

that's broken a few men in it's time!

DeV
27th August 2010, 23:10
Not sure if it is still in use, nothing in comparsion to Lympstone

apod
28th August 2010, 09:30
Also if Pte x is a PDF mechanic and does a duty on the weekend Sat to Sun say, then doesn't he have monday off. So there needs to be someone there to do his work.
Someone else has to do his work on monday.
Now if Pts x is an RDF man then everyone goes to work on monday as normal. So now calculate the number of soldiers that would be no longer required. Again hitting the pockets of the PDF

Just spotted this now.If a PDF soldier does a duty on a Saturday he gets a slightly higher rate of SDA than a weekday.He does NOT rest off on a workday i.e Monday.Hence the allowance.If a soldier does a Sunday duty he gets a higher allowance again(sundays are supposed to be family days)and rests offf Monday.So only the lads on duty Sunday are off Mondays.

In my Bks the we used to have an auld sweat Sgt doing out the Duties in the BSM's office.It was always the same crew of his buddies on duty Thursdays(3 day weekend) and Sundays(Extra Bobs and monday off).Thanks god he retired and the new guys is more fair with everyone getting a crack of the whip.

X-RayOne
28th August 2010, 16:56
is the Assault Course at Gormanstown as notorious as that of Lympstone?

that's broken a few men in it's time!

lets not go back to the "my assault course is bigger than yours" argument again ;)

Coolbreeze
28th August 2010, 18:28
Accommodaition isn't bad in Gormo

When I did my recruit training there wasn't any water for 3 days and none of the plugs worked. On the bright side we didn't have to iron our uniforms. :cool:

trellheim
28th August 2010, 19:53
there wasn't any water for 3 days and none of the plugs worked BFW - our motto "We're NEVER there for you"

ZULU
28th August 2010, 20:22
This is something thats puzzled me too. I've been told that there is only 2 taps supplying safe drinking water in Kilkenny Barracks.

The only place to get drinking water in Cork is either the mess or dining hall.

Kilworth has only 2 safe drinking water taps too.

Is this really the case?

Not to sure on Kilbride and Coolmoney

ollie
28th August 2010, 21:45
This is something thats puzzled me too. I've been told that there is only 2 taps supplying safe drinking water in Kilkenny Barracks.

The only place to get drinking water in Cork is either the mess or dining hall.

Kilworth has only 2 safe drinking water taps too.

Is this really the case?

Not to sure on Kilbride and Coolmoney

was the same in certain blocks in the curragh, maybe just 1 tap to supply safe water. i remember the glen was often issued with "do not drink the water" notices.

DeV
29th August 2010, 09:16
Not to sure on Kilbride and Coolmoney

Kilbride has a drinking water tap outside the Dining Hall (not marked) and they are knocking it and replacing it (tenders are in I think). There are drinking water taps on most of the lines in Coolmoney.

The water in Coolmoney is now filtered locally (there is a building out of bounds near the bridge) but if anything happens to it (eg a circuit breaker drips, it has to be a DF sparks to flick the switch, can be no water for a few days).

Truck Driver
30th August 2010, 23:19
Already been knocked, from what I hear.... does this mean the end of
Gormanston, if money is being invested to renovate the above ?

DeV
31st August 2010, 04:50
Already been kncoked, from what I hear.... does

The contract or the Dining Hall?

Contract was awarded in June

Goldie fish
31st August 2010, 11:04
Water problems are not unique to the Defence forces. Most of the nations tap water is not drinkable.

Thats why Ballygowan etc do so well.
Would it be worth installing Reverse Osmosis machines in Barracks to purify water? No, but it would be worth putting one in every town.

Truck Driver
31st August 2010, 13:21
The contract or the Dining Hall?

Contract was awarded in June

The dining hall, from what a colleague told me....

DeV
27th November 2010, 22:11
If/when recruiting does restart (or even for the current personnel of recruit grade and 2* grades), the following should give an excellent example of what to do (granded we cover different subjects, weapons etc but it could be a good starting point).

It needs to be centralised (due to numbers) it could be at battalion, brigade or (considering the numbers involved) all army level.

The TA now do 6 weekends at brigade level (infantry do 9) followed by 2 weeks at national level to get to the equivalent of Pte 2*. They then do an additional 2 weeks to get to the equivalent of Pte 3*.

Realistically we should be looking at approx 6/7 weekends folded by two weeks (the number of weekends could be reduced if use was made of bank holidays (eg 4 day weekend at Easter) for recruit training, followed by a similar course for upgrading to 3*.

Within the TA's resources, they get paid for all training and can do the whole thing or elements of it as fulltime training but that won't ever happen here.

ZULU
28th November 2010, 01:40
the time frame imo is way to short. It speeds up costs by promoting people quickly, yet does not provide enough depth of skills. I worked out the hours of the pdf 2-3* course and the rmr model and they come out within 10hrs of each other. But given the budgetry constraints the df find themselves in, i dont see it happening even though you could achieve it for 4.5 million euro

DeV
28th November 2010, 13:29
The above (using TA as a example) will take 2 years to do the basics (plus a lot of subjects not currently covered (as extra time is available)).

On reaching 3* they could then do the courses within the unit on the other subjects there isn't time to cover (eg ISPOT, SRAAW, M203 etc), which would help massively with retention!

RMR do the following:
7 weekends + 2 weeks
8 weekends + 2 weeks
2 weeks

However, the TA would be a much better comparsion, the RMR is:
- part of an elite corps
- has exacting physical fitness tests (not a bad thing obviously but they are far in excess of the PDF tests conducted during training)
- as a result of the above a fair amount of time will be spend practicing and doing these tests
- they are highly trained in amphibious warfare (unlike the PDF)

We need a reserve that can be interchangable with a member of the PDF (possibly with some exceptions) not interchabable with a member of the Royal Marines!

hedgehog
28th November 2010, 13:34
Whats the average (ish) attrition rate for an RDF Recruit Platoon

I mean in particular thos who leave of their own accord and those

who are shown the gate

greyfox
28th November 2010, 13:46
Out of thirty it is not unusual to loose 1-2 on the first day of camp , usually those who joined with a friend and didnt want to go in the first place . Less often someone will leave mid camp , its just not for them .
never seen a case where someone being shown the gate on recruit camp but ive seen 2 occasions where it was richly deserved (one charged) . One from our unit was a nut job on a brigade recruit camp but the running unit didnt want the hassel of charging him , god an all merciful bollicking on return and probably would have been dischaged had he returned after the summer .

ZULU
28th November 2010, 13:54
Whats the average (ish) attrition rate for an RDF Recruit Platoon

I mean in particular thos who leave of their own accord and those

who are shown the gate

In 2007 we had close to 30 start recruit syllabus. In 2010 that figure is below 10

ZULU
28th November 2010, 13:58
dev, the rmr also do weeknight trg, sometimes twice a week. Most of their fitness trg is done in their own time.

If there is such an over subscription for places in the pdf/rdf - why not make the entry requirements harder?

trellheim
28th November 2010, 15:56
There are two considerations.

1: Attrition before you are issued an Army Number ( in our system, this is the final step in the enlistment process, and can take quite some time after swearing-in ) . this process can be 50-60% of those who put their name down initiually ; Training has usually commenced prior to this, with square bashing and the like.

2: Then you have attrition before passing out, which can be 30-40%

Adjunct:
After year 1 , 50% of those passed out will usually be gone

DeV
28th November 2010, 17:12
dev, the rmr also do weeknight trg, sometimes twice a week. Most of their fitness trg is done in their own time.

The weekends are complusory centralised training, weeknights aren't!


If there is such an over subscription for places in the pdf/rdf - why not make the entry requirements harder?

Couldn't agree more!

We could make the entry requirements for the RDF the same as PDF and loss probably half the number of applications!

ghostrider
28th November 2010, 17:41
I would welcome a higher standard for people wanting to enlist in the RDF.
I think that the lack of a basic standard is the reason for the high drop out rate.

If two of the basic elements - interview and fitness test - were incoroporated then it would weed out 50% of the wasters or those that won't make the grade. Thereby giving any unit a core of recruits that know what they are doing and know what the expectations are on them. Instead of the "culture shock" that is FTT and then they leave.

Its definitely a good idea and I don't know why RDFRA have never put froward such a motion. There are PTLs in the RDF and there are officers to conduct the interviews.

This could be something that the RDF could manage off its own bat if it was brought in.

There should also be more input into getting recruits trained, and likewise for trained personnel.

ZULU
28th November 2010, 18:56
The weekends are complusory centralised training, weeknights aren't!



Couldn't agree more!

We could make the entry requirements for the RDF the same as PDF and loss probably half the number of applications!

The weeknights are compulsory as they lay the foundation for the work done on weekends. Its a continuous assesment process with back trooping happening at both weekend and ftt checkpoints

knocker
28th November 2010, 19:14
Are there NCOs or staff in rdf units who are responsible for recruits continuation training ? ie when theyre attending tuesday nights

ollie
28th November 2010, 19:40
Are there NCOs or staff in rdf units who are responsible for recruits continuation training ? ie when theyre attending tuesday nights

One would like to think so but it seem to vary from unit to unit .

From my own experience one major fault was that although a training programme could be in place there was never any guarantee that the nco's on the night would be able to teach the lessons . Far too often it ended up that whatever an nco was about what they were most comfortable was taught, hence in my own (ex) unit GRIT. Even the same unit with different training centres could be working off totally different programmes

DeV
28th November 2010, 20:23
Assuming you have 2 things - instructors and troops to train!

RoyalGreenJacket
28th November 2010, 20:47
Assuming you have 2 things - instructors and troops to train!

good point Dev, the instructors might be out doing CIT duties instead :tongue:

DeV
28th November 2010, 21:05
We are talking about RDF recruit training RGJ, the RDF don't do ATCP duties!

RoyalGreenJacket
29th November 2010, 00:25
lol i'll shut my gob then mate, we do centralised training by corps / capbadge / trade but its deffo the way forward.

when i was FCA - everything was just unit based which was not ideal but i'm sure things have improved for the Irish DF (R) now.