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View Full Version : Question(s) re replacement for Panhards



Banner
23rd November 2006, 09:26
Hello,

Dont really post much but have a few questions in relation to the Panhards.

1. Are the new Mowags with the 30mil cannons and the remote controlled 12.7 MGs meant to replace the existing Panhard fleet or compliment it?

2. Given the recent defence Defence Estimates does anyone forsee a tender being issued in 07 to replace the Panhards? (new vehicels possibly arriving in in 08 or 09?)

3. What exactly is the role of the Panhards in the PDF and would a potential replacement be something like a Centauro or would it be more like a small lightly armed Hummer type vehicle for recon only?

Sorry if this has been covered before and many thanks.

apod
23rd November 2006, 14:53
Yes the new cav mowags are intended to replace the panhards.The cav use their recce vehicles for amongst other things ;medium recce,route ,harbour and hide recce,flank security,securing vital ground i.e bridges etc and also acting as a security screen for the infantry battalion .Theres probably a few more but i cant remember them right now.Perhaps murph or goldie can fill in any blanks?
Hope that helps.:biggrin:

p.s the panhards at present are used for all the above roles.As stated the mowags will takeover those roles.The Ltv's (if we ever finally get them)are intended to be operated by the infantry as scout and liason vehicles with some going to the cav as recce vehicles.

hptmurphy
23rd November 2006, 15:10
Think you just covered it all without going into the symantics of the whole thing.

Banner
23rd November 2006, 16:36
OK thanks for the response lads, seems a little short though, aren't there approx 32 Panhards (between both types) split between 3 brigades giving at least (in theory) 10 vehicels per brigade? And these are to be phased out and replaced with 15 Mowags 5 (or 6 not sure) are armed with a 30 ml cannon the rest with a HMG? How are they even on paper supposed to provide amongs other missions "flank security,securing vital ground" and "security screen for the infantry battalion".

Even if they are augmented with the LTAV's (if that tender is ever resurected) from my (layman - armchair general take your pick) point of view there seems to be a serious deficit in terms firepower available to the cavalry - LETS GET HOVERTANKS! Seriosuly though with all the money the Govt has to spend I thought a discreet replacement program for cars initially purchased in the 70's and that are probably extremely vulnerable to even the most basic infantry held weapons (RPG?) would be on the cards..obviously not though

hptmurphy
23rd November 2006, 19:25
Well given the amount that are overseas..the actually number operational in the country at the moment is very low. Cars have to be canniblaised to keep those over seas operational..and thats not the best of scenarios..but if keeps some else safe its quite acceptable. Given the change of Roles in the cavalry..the new mowgas will be well siuted but shouldn't be seen as an absolute answer..problem is those in charge have yet to make up their mind wht the actual choice should be.

apod
23rd November 2006, 21:21
Just a guess ,and maybe i am playing devils advocate,but i think it's a similar situation to the Air corps heli replacement program.They seem to be trading numbers for capability.Actually come to think of it thats the story with the whole defence forces at the moment.:rolleyes: Go figure.
All cracks aside.I would hazard a guess that this will just be an initial order for the cav.I wouldnt bet against future orders.

hptmurphy
23rd November 2006, 21:44
I reckon it will go down the line of one squadron in training..one being deployed or deployable..and the reserve just making up the numbers at home...there wil never be a one for one replacemnet ..as apod said...reduction in numbers with an eye to increasing operability and serviceability..although it has to be said since the replacement with diesel engines the fleet has never been so reliable..juts geting old seeing as they are well beyond there twenty one years.....no pension for panhards.....just drive them till they die.

Goldie fish
23rd November 2006, 21:52
I assume it will be similar to the Piranha APC situation. The Vehicles are held in the Curragh, but available for all units that require them for training/operations. That cuts down on the logistics greatly. One location for all stores/repairs/tools, instead of three or more.

I don't expect the Panhards will fully "retire" any time soon however. The AML 90 gun is still pretty useful, and there is very little, outside of the range of 105mm guns on larger vehicles, that packs a similar punch. For a vehicle of limited armoured protection, that first shot is the most important one. if you get it wrong, it could be the last.

hptmurphy
23rd November 2006, 22:01
Wonder would the concept of turret grafting take place considering it was tried as an option many years ago with the Timoneys..also the Aussies did it with Saladins during the seventies...( Google Saladin..if you don't know what it is)..and they also grafted scorpion turrets onto M113s..waste not want not....

tonyrdf
23rd November 2006, 22:17
Wonder would the concept of turret grafting take place considering it was tried as an option many years ago with the Timoneys..also the Aussies did it with Saladins during the seventies...( Google Saladin..if you don't know what it is)..and they also grafted scorpion turrets onto M113s..waste not want not....

Could be a very favourable option. I think that the Canadians grafted scorpian turrets to one of their verisons of the Parhina. Grizzly IFSV????

hptmurphy
23rd November 2006, 22:26
Talk about Deja vous having shut down the computer and settled in for my pre bed time read....a neighbour of mine had dropped in a part works encyclopedia called 'War Monthly" dating back to 1980..second article I read is on Mowags.....canadian cougars to be more precise..and heres a section on trial the canadians had carried out in 1980 mounting a Scorpion turret on Cougar..and carried out live firing tests..If I can manage to scan on an acceptable copy of the photos I will..so is there life afte coolmooney scrap yard for Amls and scorpions..somebody seemed to have considered it over twenty five years ago albeit.....humms tune to twilight zone.....makes ya think....

California Tanker
24th November 2006, 06:43
I have to say, I'll be surprised if the 90mm guns are sent to the boneyard. A 30mm autocannon is all very well, but sometimes nothing says "I love you" quite like a large-bore HE round.

NTM

tonyrdf
24th November 2006, 11:48
What about a MOWAG mounted with this turret as a replacement for the AML90s? The main armament might only be a
60mm, but they claim that with the propper ammo it can penetrate hard targets and defeat all IFV's, and even some MBTs.
http://www.otobreda.it/products/schedule.asp?id=prod_land_hitfist_60_ge

Slaphead
24th November 2006, 15:35
At the moment there are plans for the cav to get Mowags with a 105mm turret also, although this may not happen.

DeV
24th November 2006, 18:14
What about a MOWAG mounted with this turret as a replacement for the AML90s? The main armament might only be a
60mm, but they claim that with the propper ammo it can penetrate hard targets and defeat all IFV's, and even some MBTs.
http://www.otobreda.it/products/schedule.asp?id=prod_land_hitfist_60_ge

I don't think 60mm rounds (apart from mortar rounds) are NATO standard and therefore are unlikely to be selected due to "interoperability" requirements.

Why not but the upgraded turrets of the AML 90s on MOWAG chassis, if the turret will fit.

lefty
31st October 2007, 13:13
Are these going to be replaced, seeing as there is nothing better in Cav Units other than 1ACS at present isnt it about time they are replaced with something else, i suppose its a large undertaking but surely one that must be taken if Cav Units are to have a role in the future, especially overseas

DeV
1st November 2007, 16:31
Search engine - here is a clue LATV

paul
1st November 2007, 19:16
At the moment there are plans for the cav to get Mowags with a 105mm turret also, although this may not happen.

There are rumours also about getting Mowags with 120mm mortars,but also this may not happen.

Jackal
5th November 2007, 21:33
Anyone hear rumours of a new 90mm cannon for the CVRT