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  1. #51
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    On the question of whether or not ireland needs marines, given the size of the defence forces there is on need for a seprate service.

    As for the future role of the DF, there is a green paper going to be published later this year that will redefine the role of all three branches of the defence forces, which , I believe, will make a lot of changes to the role of the defence forces, restructuring the army more towards an overseas role.

    As for Chad, FG are very different from FF when it comes to involvement in Defence on a European level, so I'd expect changes, and the German battlegroup this year and its possible deployment if Syria or Libya get worse will pose intresting questions.

    Personally i think the DF will end up with an EPV and will be capable of carrying out Non combatant evacuations and other missions in places like west africa.
    Last edited by paul g; 25th April 2012 at 15:00.

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    ...FG are very different from FF...
    while i accept that this is entirely true with regards to what their 'gut' position is, they are in coalition with Labour - and when Labour appeared on the horizon, FG's election promise of scrapping the Triple lock got dropped like hot dogsh1t.

    if Labour have influence over the white paper, as well as influence over the budget/procurements and on deployments, then i don't see how the situation will change.
    Last edited by ropebag; 25th April 2012 at 15:10.

  4. #53
    Moderated Notasoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    as an island nation i do find it lacking that there are no dedicated Marines.

    ireland can harness it's maritime history and develop a niche force to be reckoned with - even if only in defence.

    who'd wanna fcuk with a load of big hairy irishmen well trained and armed to the teeth guarding vessels transiting through the Indian Ocean?

    you could blaze a trail here and get on loads of exchanges with other Marines.

    No women then?

    I don't know if having extra capability isn't such a bad idea for defence, but neutrality is the best policy. The Swiss do it very well. I deplore conscription. UN missions are not necessary.
    "Not merely peace for Americans but for peace for all men and women, not merely peace in our time but in all time." ~ John Kennedy World peace speech June 1963.

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  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notasoldier View Post
    ...The Swiss do it very well...
    they also have a defence budget around four times that of Irelands while being surrounded by the Alps, not having any natural resources and not having an internal (and external?) security problem.

    if Ireland followed their model you'd probably have a defence budget of around €10bn...

  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    while i accept that this is entirely true with regards to what their 'gut' position is, they are in coalition with Labour - and when Labour appeared on the horizon, FG's election promise of scrapping the Triple lock got dropped like hot dogsh1t.

    if Labour have influence over the white paper, as well as influence over the budget/procurements and on deployments, then i don't see how the situation will change.
    .

    Actually Europe will probably have more influence on the green and white paper processes, the state is still richer than at any point in its history, and we owe the Europeans.

    As for missions like Liberia being less important, I'd disagree, West Africa and places like Libiera are actually very important to Ireland and Europe, most of Europe's cocaine comes via there, as do most of our asylum seekers, Nigeria ia an accident waiting to happen with Boko haram and i can think of a few other Naroc/Failed States there.

    I think you'll find that the Green paper will be based around restructuring the DF to adapt to future threats by becoming more expeditionary with the EPV being key to the future development of the DF, and that it will be dressed up to placate the labour party.

    Sacred cows like the reserve and unneeded barracks will go, New Zealand has only 1200 reservists and I'd say the same will happen here.
    Last edited by paul g; 25th April 2012 at 19:06.

  8. #56
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    The same guff about too many bods tied up having unneeded barracks will be trotted out to kill off RDF cadre and other corps/units deemed unwanted in the new order.

  9. #57
    Lt General Bravo20's Avatar
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    MOD: AHEM, this thread is about whether or not we should have marines. There are plenty of threads about the future of the RDF, DF, white paper etc. if you want to comment on that please use those threads

  10. #58
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    Cheers for the replies lads
    "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

  11. #59
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Is it a marine expeditionary unit you are looking for or a commando role/capability?

    Canada did several cost benefit analysis on the creation and need for marines, starting out at a very modest 250 personnel but the project was canned for numerous reasons. There was quite a good literature review and comparison study included. A search of the library/google scholar should bring you to it.

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  13. #60
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    In Ireland though, would the cry from those damn crusties not drown out reasonable debate?
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  14. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    In Ireland though, would the cry from those damn crusties not drown out reasonable debate?
    its not just the crusties, its a good slice of the wider political class - having a cheap DF that doesn't do anything controversial means not having to offend potential voters with decisions they may not like or that may have unwelcome consequences that have to defended, it also means there's more cash to be splashed at the parish pump or on 'client groups'.

    i'd like to think that the kind of policy that Paul G is talking about is the policy that will be followed - i certainly think that its whats required in the Irish national interest - but i'm afraid that political opportunism will mean that the DF will be crippled.

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  16. #62
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    Top post ropebag
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  17. #63
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  18. #64
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    I find it very intresting in the link the article it says marines could be used to protect oil rigs in the event of a terroist attack espeically because ireland is looking to expand its terrotorial waters in the next few years and their may be huge amounts of unexplored natural gas deposits laying under the seabed of the west coast of ireland.

  19. #65
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I don't know if having extra capability isn't such a bad idea for defence, but neutrality is the best policy. The Swiss do it very well. I deplore conscription. UN missions are not necessary.
    whats this...our 10% disabled on the board ..it is a military board after all, would some mod please take the inititiave and ban this cnut!


    Murf old pal, while I tend to aggree with you ,hence the ''like'' button, it might be better to tone it down a bit and explain to this innocent why in God's name his opinion is sooooo off the mark
    Last edited by Turkey; 29th April 2012 at 15:33.
    Just visiting

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  21. #66
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    I don't know if having extra capability isn't such a bad idea for defence, but neutrality is the best policy.
    Maybe you should move out of ireland and into a neutral country then?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  23. #67
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    Not that Notasoldier needs me to jump in the line of fire but I put my Kevlar jocks on this morning. No need for a ban. Let's defend our position. There's any number of ways to do that.

  24. #68
    Moderated Notasoldier's Avatar
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    The only people who want to ban, just tend to be those who think they have the fight. Well you don't. Cowards!

    I never said I was Irish, my profile states how I found this forum and where I am from, take a little time to read. I don't know of any military forums, I post here occassionally on anything that may interest me.
    "Not merely peace for Americans but for peace for all men and women, not merely peace in our time but in all time." ~ John Kennedy World peace speech June 1963.

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  26. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Notasoldier View Post
    The only people who want to ban, just tend to be those who think they have the fight. Well you don't. Cowards!

    I never said I was Irish, my profile states how I found this forum and where I am from, take a little time to read. I don't know of any military forums, I post here occassionally on anything that may interest me.
    This country is not neutral, never has been, and without spending a sh1tload of money will never be. The Swiss as you pointed out are a good example of ''real'' nutrality.
    Our 'neutrality is a pathetic excuse by out pig-ignorantgobshite politicans and civil servants to save money on our DF.
    We need those UN missions in a fighting rearguard action to maintain even the pathetic amount of money that is spent on equipment and training so that in a [God forbid] attempt on this country that we have some limited means to defend it untill someone comes to our aid, appart from that we do still have a subversive element to deal with, [they hav'nt gone away, you know].
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  28. #70
    Moderated Notasoldier's Avatar
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    This idea that your country doesn't need a military is just a slight exaggeration, you could be neutral if you wanted but clearly the people don't seem bothered and the politicians are not concerned about this position.

    If Ireland wants to be a peace keeping country then okay, I can't wish the world to leave anywhere alone, and let people do the best they can.

    Nothing is for certain, the UK government is involved in militarism that isn't peace, I would like to see that change.

    Can anybody tell me, probably a waste of time(never hurts though), has anyone actually written to their TD about views on foreign policy or defense?
    "Not merely peace for Americans but for peace for all men and women, not merely peace in our time but in all time." ~ John Kennedy World peace speech June 1963.

  29. #71
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    so much for the olive branch.....
    If you want peace, some time you gotta fight for it just as the Brits had to do in '39, did you want the world to be ruled by mister a hitler?

    this is my last off topic post on this, I strongly reccomend thats it's yours as well...
    If you wish to discuss your IMHO mistaken veiws on world peace do feel free to start another thread.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  30. #72
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    If you want to be Neutral, if you want a policy of Military Neutrality, you have to be able to defend it.
    Otherwise, prepare to be a "soft target".
    Ireland is militarily, Non Aligned.

    @notasoldier: stop waffling. FG has a policy on defence. It is well publicised at election time. read it, then let the rest of us discuss the topic.

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  32. #73
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    It's kind of party tricks using troops of any Corps. Better a Marine based heavy company happy in the environment aboard ship and trained in assault and landings.

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  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    It's kind of party tricks using troops of any Corps. Better a Marine based heavy company happy in the environment aboard ship and trained in assault and landings.
    The DF is too small to justify it

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  36. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The DF is too small to justify it
    The DF/DoD/Govt is too fixed in their vested interests in keeping geographically dispersed barracks for local votes to consider strategic consolidation of forces to provide the flexibility to innovate towards a Maritime/Amphibious hybrid service. Considering Ireland is an Island and all.

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