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Cessna Replacement - The Options

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  • Originally posted by pym View Post
    I would hope that there's joined up thinking across the DF on this, as Link-16 (or equivalent) should be something the NS are looking at now and should also be on the Casa replacement from day 1.

    If there's any notion of sending the PC-12 abroad to participate meaningfully in a conflict situation, serious consideration has to be given to a) protection from manpads, b) how you plan to extract the crew if they go down 200 miles away in potentially hostile territory, whether the engine just quit or worse.
    Bring a couple choppers along - equipped and trained for C-SAR.

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    • Or deploy only as part of a bigger composite force where such assets are already in situ.

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      • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
        Or deploy only as part of a bigger composite force where such assets are already in situ.
        I never said whose choppers

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        • JJ has hit the nail on the head....the Don will want this aircraft to be as flexible and user friendly as a King Air, yet have a bellyful of sensors and a crew mission module under the illusion that all can be quickly removeable. I suspect that what will actually happen is that one of the three airframes will be kept in basic transport fit, so that it may allegedly be rush-refitted to an air ambulance, as required and that the other two will do the surveillance jobs and they will chop and change at overhaul time, in the fashion of the Casas.

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          • Sensor console has to be removable/reinstalled within 4 man hours without extensive adjustment

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            • That's the console? Not the additional wiring, power supply or sensor units themselves?

              As an aside, the notion of sending one of anything abroad always seems a bit questionable. If it takes the load off a similar airframe deployed by a partner nation, OK, but if airborne ISTAR is deemed necessary and there's just one airframe.. I wouldn't like to be the boots on the ground relying on it.

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              • Delighted to see that this plan is moving forward. Thanks to Dev for sharing the RFT spec information. Based on what is being looked for, it seems like there is a good idea on the capabilities that this type of system could add to both the Air Corps and Defence Forces operations. (I think it was apod who mentioned a while back that there was a large amount of info on IKON surrounding this requirement/system, so a lot of thought is going into it.) The delivery schedule appears to indicate wish to get this facility in place as soon as possible, so it's good to see some urgency in it.

                I would have been more pro a Caravan-type replacement in the past, mainly as it would have been an greater evolution of what the current 172 fleet is doing. But a PC12 type aircraft is a revolution in what would be envisaged, especially when combined with it's sensor and systems suite. Regarding it's ruggedness, the aircraft is used by a number of operators in a rough field environment, for example the Australian Royal Flying Doctors, which would give it pedigree in this regard. For the single engine -v- multi-engine debate, it's always better to have more than one (working) donkey when doing anything around water, but with the reliability of turbine engines and specs which don't seem to point towards this being a maritime surveilance aircraft, maybe that's not entirely a bad thing? (I appreciate the MC12W Liberty Ship aircraft the US uses would be the ultimate incarnation of the capability we might be seeking to acquire, but cost, capabilities etc might be outside of what is being searched for here?) Anyways, if a maritime surveilance role is being considered for a mission, a Casa might be best here - bigger, longer endurance, more crew comfort, able to take a larger sensor fit? I agree that Dauphain-ising the aircraft by overloading it with systems would be a disaster, but hopefully this will be considered by those doing the selecting over the next while.

                Two questions which Dev or someone with access to the tender might be able to answer:
                ====
                1) Is the cost of the sensor fit included in the documentation? Based on the tender cost - €15 for the 3 aircraft and the price of a PC12 (about €4.8m), there wouldn't seem to be much spare change for toys.
                2) Does the utility element of the tender specify any requirement for parachute ops - either of persons or cargo?

                I'd agree that three aircraft for the Air Corps requirement does seem a bit low for both domestic and overseas ops; hopefully by the time a contract is place or a few years after, say another 2 might be purchased.

                Just my two cents, apologies for any waffling above. Good to see a bit of chat and debate about this. Best of luck and safe flying to those who eventually operate them.

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                • Originally posted by meridian View Post
                  ...Is the cost of the sensor fit included in the documentation? Based on the tender cost - €15 for the 3 aircraft and the price of a PC12 (about €4.8m), there wouldn't seem to be much spare change for toys....
                  short version? i bloody hope not...

                  having been on the perphipery of an ISTAR related UOR purchace for the Afghan war, i can say with absolute confidence that airborne ISTAR capability does not, and will never, fall into the 'cheap' basket.

                  there are bolt-on systems that can provide a capability - EO/IR, SIGINT/ELINT, laser designation, SAR-GMTI etc.. but not only are they not cheap to put together in one place so you can access all of the stuff at the same time and get a complete picture rather than bits of it, the people you need to turn information into actionable intelligence are not cheap to train, and you'd be looking at at least 3 rear crew to manage that information/intelligence and get it out to where its needed.

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                  • €15m is the estimate of the "proposed acquisition of the aircraft"

                    My bold could be debated that that doesn't include the sensor fit but the aircraft Tenders are to include the fit

                    Parachute ops are included in the tender (that's not to say the a/c won't have the capability)
                    Last edited by DeV; 16 May 2017, 14:40.

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                    • In a piece posted on 2nd February, we noted that the Department of Justice and Equality had secured an additional €1.8 million in capital funding, for the replacement and upgrade of equipment on the Defender aircraft, which entered service in 1997. We also noted the comments of the Minister for Just

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                      • if you keep yanking mission modules out, willy-nilly, then you will break things and affect availability for the mission, so if your customer is the Gardai or the ARW, then they won't be happy, so you will have to achieve a compromise between ISTAR mission needs and basic cargo needs. Imagine if one aircraft is dedicated to the ARW, for example. On Monday, they task it with an ISTAR duty, so it's away on ops all day. For Wednesday, they want to do a four man para drop with full kit. Back it goes to Bal to have everything ripped out, allegedly in four hours but nearer to eight, so by Wed am, it's ready for para work. Mission gets cancelled due weather so ARW want it back in ISTAR fit for Saturday. Back into the shed...you see how it goes and how the customer starts to get very pissed off and starts blaming the Don...The Casas had to do a lot of this to-ing and fro-ing to achieve their mission list, in my time and well after, so you can easily absorb three airframes, especially if you expect it to do every job under the sun.

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                        • A short article about Afghanistan uses the PC12 (apologies if it's been posted before)

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                          • how many birds is the tender for? 3?

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                            • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                              how many birds is the tender for? 3?

                              3 plus a possible GASU aircraft

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