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  • Do we know enough about the role of the Shadows to know whether they'd be useful?

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    • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
      Do we know enough about the role of the Shadows to know whether they'd be useful?
      What is it you want to be able to do?

      They are a hugely capable theatre-level int asset, they fall solidly into the 'things any operational commander would willingly sell his children's souls to have' pile...

      Much more useful than, say, a random and barely equipped light Infantry Bn - and, for the cynical politician, much less controversial and publicity attracting.
      Last edited by ropebag; 15 September 2017, 17:32.

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      • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
        What is it you want to be able to do?

        They are a hugely capable theatre-level int asset, they fall solidly into the 'things any operational commander would willingly sell his children's souls to have' pile...

        Much more useful than, say, a random and barely equipped light Infantry Bn - and, for the cynical politician, much less controversial and publicity attracting.
        Oh I fully agree - I just want some surface surveillance as well (RADAR and FLIR), so we can tick the MPA box.

        Only thing about them is that the ekeltrickery is by Lockheed. I'd rather have the SAAB suite.
        Last edited by Graylion; 15 September 2017, 22:22.

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        • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
          Oh I fully agree - I just want some surface surveillance as well (RADAR and FLIR), so we can tick the MPA box...
          we're back at the same point we are with the MRV/OPV/whatever-the-hell discussion - should Ireland get something that fits within its own defence structure/operation but that doesn't fit within a wider EU capability, or get something that doesn't quite fit within its own domestic/local structure/operations but that fits into an EU capability?

          i think its difficult to argue that there isn't already some form of demarkation between National defence structure/operations and assets specifically designed for EU/UN use with the formation and resources spent on the ISTAR Coy - so we've got over the issue in principle, whats left is to decide on the practical stuff.

          i take the view - as demonstrated by the ISTAR Coy - that the most effective way for Ireland to contribute to EU defence/security is in niche capability. budget and politics mean that a flight of Gripen/F-16 over the Baltic, or a Bde HQ and Mech/Armoured Bn on the Polish border, or a €500m Frigate in the eastern Med simply aren't on the cards, so the DF should look at what fits both the budget constraints and the political constraints and go for enabling cababilities rather than the more politically difficult 'doing' capabilities.

          ISTAR, or Airlift, or battlefield mobility (helicopters) in the air, logistic support at sea, SF and ISTAR, as well as good old fashioned PK/PE on land...

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          • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
            we're back at the same point we are with the MRV/OPV/whatever-the-hell discussion - should Ireland get something that fits within its own defence structure/operation but that doesn't fit within a wider EU capability, or get something that doesn't quite fit within its own domestic/local structure/operations but that fits into an EU capability?

            i think its difficult to argue that there isn't already some form of demarkation between National defence structure/operations and assets specifically designed for EU/UN use with the formation and resources spent on the ISTAR Coy - so we've got over the issue in principle, whats left is to decide on the practical stuff.

            i take the view - as demonstrated by the ISTAR Coy - that the most effective way for Ireland to contribute to EU defence/security is in niche capability. budget and politics mean that a flight of Gripen/F-16 over the Baltic, or a Bde HQ and Mech/Armoured Bn on the Polish border, or a €500m Frigate in the eastern Med simply aren't on the cards, so the DF should look at what fits both the budget constraints and the political constraints and go for enabling cababilities rather than the more politically difficult 'doing' capabilities.

            ISTAR, or Airlift, or battlefield mobility (helicopters) in the air, logistic support at sea, SF and ISTAR, as well as good old fashioned PK/PE on land...
            completely and utterly d'accord. I;d add that we also should see about procuring capabilities through our allies. EATC is one way to do this. We really don't need 2 small cargo birds cum MPA for 3 cargo runs a year where we also have to procure civilian lift capacity.
            Last edited by Graylion; 16 September 2017, 09:56.

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            • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              we're back at the same point we are with the MRV/OPV/whatever-the-hell discussion - should Ireland get something that fits within its own defence structure/operation but that doesn't fit within a wider EU capability, or get something that doesn't quite fit within its own domestic/local structure/operations but that fits into an EU capability?
              From a policy standpoint the way to go is a niche capability solution that has mission efficacy within the context of Ireland’s EEZ Conops whilst building on one’s existing strengths, yet also contributes to the wider geo-security context of the Euro-Atlantic region in a meaningful way. It does not have to be an either or kind of choice.

              Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              i think its difficult to argue that there isn't already some form of demarkation between National defence structure/operations and assets specifically designed for EU/UN use with the formation and resources spent on the ISTAR Coy - so we've got over the issue in principle, whats left is to decide on the practical stuff.

              i take the view - as demonstrated by the ISTAR Coy - that the most effective way for Ireland to contribute to EU defence/security is in niche capability. budget and politics mean that a flight of Gripen/F-16 over the Baltic, or a Bde HQ and Mech/Armoured Bn on the Polish border, or a €500m Frigate in the eastern Med simply aren't on the cards, so the DF should look at what fits both the budget constraints and the political constraints and go for enabling cababilities rather than the more politically difficult 'doing' capabilities.
              Timeframe wise the opportunity wont present itself until the MPA capability requires replacement but a tier 1 maritime ISR platform with overland capabilities is where this local-global dilemma could be solved.

              Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              ISTAR, or Airlift, or battlefield mobility (helicopters) in the air, logistic support at sea, SF and ISTAR, as well as good old fashioned PK/PE on land...
              One or two capability sets from each of the service components Land, Maritime and Air, that can offer both a domestic and an EU/International output would be an ideal consideration for force planning. Land component already offers ARW and ISTAR Company, and the planned MRV in the maritime component is an ideal capability to meet this niche criteria and what it offers is well known. Those boxes are ticked.

              What is left is the Air component and this is where I see something like Saab Swordfish being really transformative not just for Ireland but for the whole Euro-Atlantic region. Having four Swordfish as 'guardians' operating in the North-East Atlantic flying out of the Don or Shannon would nail down the domestic needs in the Maritime ISR context but offer a substantive addition to the wider regional security umbrella.
              Last edited by Anzac; 17 September 2017, 01:26.

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              • Correction..! My two recent mentions of PC-24s,.. were typos - I was referring of course to the 'Heir Apparent' - the turbo-prop' PC-12 that I listed details for... Carry on!

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                • Originally posted by Anzac View Post

                  What is left is the Air component and this is where I see something like Saab Swordfish being really transformative not just for Ireland but for the whole Euro-Atlantic region. Having four Swordfish as 'guardians' operating in the North-East Atlantic flying out of the Don or Shannon would nail down the domestic needs in the Maritime ISR context but offer a substantive addition to the wider regional security umbrella.
                  I'd love that, but that's be _really_ expensive. Go with smaller MPA based on King Air // Avanti // PC-24 and get our feet wet. Save the money for CASA replacements and buy into EATC. Replace LearJet with Avanti or PC-24.

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                  • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                    I'd love that, but that's be _really_ expensive. Go with smaller MPA based on King Air // Avanti // PC-24 and get our feet wet. Save the money for CASA replacements and buy into EATC. Replace LearJet with Avanti or PC-24.
                    I can't believe you would reject the Swordfish, an established airframe, designed to replace something like Nimrod or P3 Orion based on price alone and still insist on the Avanti toy, a millionaires runabout with a flir stuck on..
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                    • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                      I'd love that, but that's be _really_ expensive. Go with smaller MPA based on King Air // Avanti // PC-24 and get our feet wet. Save the money for CASA replacements and buy into EATC. Replace LearJet with Avanti or PC-24.
                      Your feet are already wet, you are already in the long mission MPA game. It is taking it to the next capability level and if you noticed I was discussing Swordfish in the context of the CASA replacement and the ability of the Air Corps to offer a tier 1 capability in the regional context. Yes it makes sense to also have a second tier adjunct capability like PC-12, KingAir for inner EEZ constabulary work whilst the prime asset concentrates on the prime ISR taskings.
                      Last edited by Anzac; 17 September 2017, 11:14.

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                      • I'll say it again, I strongly suspect that they didn't go looking for ISR Spec King Airs to replace the Cessna's because DoD would then have insisted on King Airs replacing the Casa's.

                        The single engine of the PC-12 inherently limits its Marpat capabilities, meaning a separate multi engine Casa replacement is still a must.

                        The single engine however also limits its eh, suitability, for providing ISR support to the rest of the DF abroad.

                        It's bizzaro and nutty logic, which is why I believe it's likely to be true.

                        The idea of a fleet of four long range aircraft of the Swordfish class that are able to work against sub threats and to drop something more devastating than a dinghy.... sign me up.

                        But I'll repeat myself again - that kind of quantum leap in capability is, in my opinion, only likely to come if the EU waves a big bloody pointy stick at us.

                        "Oh you want your low corporate tax rate? Oh and what are you contributing to EU Defence? Oh.. well, something will have to give... to begin with, I notice you have a lot of ocean..."
                        Last edited by pym; 17 September 2017, 13:01.

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                        • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                          I can't believe you would reject the Swordfish, an established airframe, designed to replace something like Nimrod or P3 Orion based on price alone and still insist on the Avanti toy, a millionaires runabout with a flir stuck on..
                          reworked airframe with wider wingspan and 3300 nm range

                          15.5 M$ avionics fit - that is a *beep* of a lot more than "a FLIR stuck on"

                          And I would love a Swordfish or three, I just can't see it happening fiscally.
                          Last edited by Graylion; 17 September 2017, 14:23.

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                          • Originally posted by pym View Post
                            But I'll repeat myself again - that kind of quantum leap in capability is, in my opinion, only likely to come if the EU waves a big bloody pointy stick at us.

                            "Oh you want your low corporate tax rate? Oh and what are you contributing to EU Defence? Oh.. well, something will have to give... to begin with, I notice you have a lot of ocean..."
                            *g* - and we'd need a higher corporation tax to pay for it ....

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                            • I suspect that the reason they decided to go single engine is more to do with running costs and crew availability

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                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                I suspect that the reason they decided to go single engine is more to do with running costs and crew availability
                                And running costs are a fine reason if the plan is to leave them at home.

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