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Cessna Replacement - The Options

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  • The AC has at least 20 years of Garda surveillance under it's belt plus whatever else it has done that is not public knowledge so generating a set of SOPs and doctrine for overseas use wouldn't be hard, especially given the amount of cross training with foreign armies that has occurred. You could realistically imagine, for example, an Irish unit on African UN duty with their own surveillance aircraft, considerably expanding a CO's overview and the ability to call up and use heavy hitting assets. It could get very interesting.

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    • ...@ msg. No. 1237 questioning a ‘...missed opportunity’...

      A fair summary of above sentiment might be, that some posters considered, that compared to the PC-12:

      - Other comparable aircraft had somewhat superior capabilities and/or more established ISR pedigree e.g. King Air ERs, with twin-prop’ aircraft unwisely discounted.
      - Other (cheaper) aircraft had more transport utility, and ISR pedigree, e.g. Caravan.
      - Cheaper aircraft would have left more funds for primary role ISR equipment e.g. Caravan or Defender.
      - That any twin-prop’ would have offered a better safety margin, and better allowed for a closely aligned MPA (ancillary) use (and nose-mounted sensors/equipment).
      - Conversely, that PC-12 capital (and running) costs would be over-kill for more mundane ISR use on a not-hard border, surveys for govt. departments, as run-abouts, and parachuting.

      The intended primary role is ISR, and I think what piqued people’s interest/annoyance, was the apparent potential for a PC-12 to be more suited to the secondary (transport) roles, but specifically of Air Ambulance and MATS.

      As for the White Paper 2015, government policies can change.

      Also, some posters thought (including myself) that if few and expensive surveillance planes are to be purchased, and if convention appears to be that maritime patrol aircraft be twin-engine, that any ISR aircraft purchased be twin-engine, to allow for supplementary, mini-me casa (MPA) use. Most of above was outlined in the original discussion post # 1 (e.g. option 4), and page 1 (of April, 2007!!!).

      In any event, for the cost, hopefully they would get some overseas (UN/similar) use sooner rather than later. Happy New Year!

      Comment


      • @Whingenot, finally - Some semblance of debate. I had specifically asked the question as a result of a statement of another user. This is a discussion forum.

        There are two important words that need to be considered for context - Single Engine. No doubt chosen by the bean counters to reduce costs. We can talk twin engine all day long but it wasn't a consideration.

        I am quite sure that if you were to ask anyone with an interest in aviation would they rather a PC-12 or a King Air 350ER, the majority would choose the latter, if for nothing else other than it has two engines. Do you think somehow that a king air wouldn't be used for MATS/transport or air ambulances. Unfortunately everything procured now has to be multi role, and while its not ideal, the DF do not have the budget or resources to buy single mission equipment. Examples of such are few and far between.

        Government policy can change of course but you cant cover every eventuality or every possibility with finite and limited resources. You can't be all men to all people.

        I think its a considerable stretch to suggest the caravan is a better ISTAR platform, based on what? A caravan may well be certified for flight in icing but it has a chequered past. Given the Irish climate and its affinity with icing, would you be happy circling for hours accumulating ice or would you rather the ability to loiter above the weather.

        Similarly, how do you transfer a patient to the UK that is required to remain at sea level pressure? Fly VFR at low level? We could argue til the cows come home about whether air ambulance is something the AC should be doing but Id argue that it is one of the most important functions of the AC, if you can get an aircraft that can do its primary function and air ambulance, then its a no brainer. Why limit yourself? And of course, in the background you have the long standing MOU with the Dept of Health to provide the service. You can't just ignore the obligation.

        There was never any policy or direction to support your opinion that the FWUA back up CASA ops offshore. Again, maritime surveillance is not a stated function of the FWUA. The tender spec did include the ability to read AIS information if I remember correctly so nothing to say it can't sit 10 miles offshore at 20,000ft and track targets a considerable distance into the EEZ. Well within gliding distance of shore and land if need be.

        I fail to see a single area where a Caravan is significantly better in any one area, parachuting maybe but we have discussed that already.. I can see plenty where the PC-12 is superior however.

        Regardless of opinion, replacing 5 45 year old piston engine aircraft with 3 much larger, much more capable aircraft is a positive step in the right direction no matter what way you look at it. The original budget was circa €15m also. I doubt 5-10 years ago they would've gota €30m contract over the line.
        Last edited by Chuck; 2 January 2018, 00:38.

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        • Transferring patients to the UK, that require a low altitude flight, has been done by helicopters and more than once in the Casas, plodding along at sub-15000 feet....the ability to read AIS suggests shipping surveillance, with a side order of keeping an eye on drug smugglers, who won't be running anything that will light them up on AIS, so your logic of orbiting within gliding distance does work....I'd be interested to read the opinions of the aircrew who were involved in the process.

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          • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
            Transferring patients to the UK, that require a low altitude flight, has been done by helicopters and more than once in the Casas, plodding along at sub-15000 feet....the ability to read AIS suggests shipping surveillance, with a side order of keeping an eye on drug smugglers, who won't be running anything that will light them up on AIS, so your logic of orbiting within gliding distance does work....I'd be interested to read the opinions of the aircrew who were involved in the process.
            There is always an inherent risk of engine failure when operating an aircraft with a single engine regardless of whether you operate over land or water.

            That statistics for a PC-12 engine failure speak for themselves. I am sure that the appropriate risk assessments will be made if it came to fruition.

            Re air ambulance, if there's no casa available or there is icing conditions, helicopters cant do it.

            Nice to have the option of a pressurised aircraft for crew and patient comfort rather than getting hockeyed by the weather at low level.

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            • I said that AC helicopters have done air ambulance to the UK in the past and that's a fact. I know they can't fly in conditions of known icing (FIKI). There have been occasions when the Casas and Learjet were unavailable and injured punters were airlifted directly to the UK, in the 139. I wouldn't care for it myself but needs must...

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              • With regard to air ambulance work, have a look at the air ambulance thread.

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                • According to the award notice there were 2 tenders received

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                  • A few interesting nuggets floating around the internet about the PC12; first, a more complete listing of the RFT specs in the one post which DeV provided extracts of in earlier posts

                    * http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?p=886418

                    Looks like our French neighbours are interested in the PC12 aswell, as a replacement/supplement to rotary winged ops, for ISTAR type ops where landing by heli isn't required, and to stand in for heli capabilities that aren't available due to maintenance or insufficient numbers

                    * http://www.janes.com/article/77501/f...ter-operations
                    * And a translated French article:


                    There's even a note that they're interested in hanging Hellfire type missiles from it... (Grenade tossed, runs for cover )

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by meridian View Post
                      A few interesting nuggets floating around the internet about the PC12; first, a more complete listing of the RFT specs in the one post which DeV provided extracts of in earlier posts

                      * http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?p=886418

                      Looks like our French neighbours are interested in the PC12 aswell, as a replacement/supplement to rotary winged ops, for ISTAR type ops where landing by heli isn't required, and to stand in for heli capabilities that aren't available due to maintenance or insufficient numbers

                      * http://www.janes.com/article/77501/f...ter-operations
                      * And a translated French article:


                      There's even a note that they're interested in hanging Hellfire type missiles from it... (Grenade tossed, runs for cover )
                      That’s a screenshot of the specs (which was where I got them)

                      Comment


                      • Bit of a difference in spec and price:
                        The possible foreign military sale (FMS) of four King Air 350ER Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) aircraft has been cleared by the Trump administration to the government of Kuwait. An announcement posted external link by the US State Department’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) estimate the sale at $259 million, with the package to include enhanced PT6A-67A engines, AN/AAQ-35 WESCAM MX-15HDi Electro-Optical & Infrared Imaging Sensor Turrets, Selex Seaspray 7500E Active Electronically Scanned Array Radars (AESA), AN/AAR-47 Missile Warning Systems (MWS), AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Systems, as well as other systems, training and support. Furthermore, one of the four aircraft will be further modified to accommodate VIP/senior leadership personnel for transport and Med Evac capability or command and control,and other related elements of logistical support. Sierra Nevada Corp will act as lead contractor on the sale.

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                        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                          Bit of a difference in spec and price:
                          gold plated option for an oil rich country. The RAF shadows would appear to be cheaper, but this is also not total program cost. I must admit that I did not expect this to be that high. We could probably push it down a bit by making smart choices

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                          • Junior Minister for State and DF COS visited Pilatus earlier this week. Nice photo of the PC-12 production line.


                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • Well, Kehoe hasn't a clue, he's just a mouthpiece; Mellett is a sailor by trade and not an aviator; O'Connor is the only one with actual experience of aviation apart from the Swiss heads, so it's one out of three...

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                              • Is keyhole trying to copy the CoS body language? Hands on hips pelvic thrust stance, and the only two with hands in front pregnant duck stance?

                                . In each instance the person takes the Hands-on-Hips pose and this is a universal gesture used to communicate that a person is ready for assertive action. ... Also known as the 'readiness' gesture, that is, the person is ready for assertive action, its basic meaning carries a subtly aggressive attitude everywhere.
                                . Hands in front When a person does this gesture, they are exercising some sort of 'self-restraint'. They are symbolically 'clenching' themselves back and withholding a negative reaction, usually anxiety or frustration. The higher the person clenches his hands whilst standing, the more negative he is feeling.
                                Last edited by TangoSierra; 14 April 2018, 09:55.

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