Do we know enough about the role of the Shadows to know whether they'd be useful?
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Cessna Replacement - The Options
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Originally posted by Graylion View PostDo we know enough about the role of the Shadows to know whether they'd be useful?
They are a hugely capable theatre-level int asset, they fall solidly into the 'things any operational commander would willingly sell his children's souls to have' pile...
Much more useful than, say, a random and barely equipped light Infantry Bn - and, for the cynical politician, much less controversial and publicity attracting.Last edited by ropebag; 15 September 2017, 17:32.
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Originally posted by ropebag View PostWhat is it you want to be able to do?
They are a hugely capable theatre-level int asset, they fall solidly into the 'things any operational commander would willingly sell his children's souls to have' pile...
Much more useful than, say, a random and barely equipped light Infantry Bn - and, for the cynical politician, much less controversial and publicity attracting.
Only thing about them is that the ekeltrickery is by Lockheed. I'd rather have the SAAB suite.Last edited by Graylion; 15 September 2017, 22:22.
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Originally posted by Graylion View PostOh I fully agree - I just want some surface surveillance as well (RADAR and FLIR), so we can tick the MPA box...
i think its difficult to argue that there isn't already some form of demarkation between National defence structure/operations and assets specifically designed for EU/UN use with the formation and resources spent on the ISTAR Coy - so we've got over the issue in principle, whats left is to decide on the practical stuff.
i take the view - as demonstrated by the ISTAR Coy - that the most effective way for Ireland to contribute to EU defence/security is in niche capability. budget and politics mean that a flight of Gripen/F-16 over the Baltic, or a Bde HQ and Mech/Armoured Bn on the Polish border, or a €500m Frigate in the eastern Med simply aren't on the cards, so the DF should look at what fits both the budget constraints and the political constraints and go for enabling cababilities rather than the more politically difficult 'doing' capabilities.
ISTAR, or Airlift, or battlefield mobility (helicopters) in the air, logistic support at sea, SF and ISTAR, as well as good old fashioned PK/PE on land...
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Originally posted by ropebag View Postwe're back at the same point we are with the MRV/OPV/whatever-the-hell discussion - should Ireland get something that fits within its own defence structure/operation but that doesn't fit within a wider EU capability, or get something that doesn't quite fit within its own domestic/local structure/operations but that fits into an EU capability?
i think its difficult to argue that there isn't already some form of demarkation between National defence structure/operations and assets specifically designed for EU/UN use with the formation and resources spent on the ISTAR Coy - so we've got over the issue in principle, whats left is to decide on the practical stuff.
i take the view - as demonstrated by the ISTAR Coy - that the most effective way for Ireland to contribute to EU defence/security is in niche capability. budget and politics mean that a flight of Gripen/F-16 over the Baltic, or a Bde HQ and Mech/Armoured Bn on the Polish border, or a €500m Frigate in the eastern Med simply aren't on the cards, so the DF should look at what fits both the budget constraints and the political constraints and go for enabling cababilities rather than the more politically difficult 'doing' capabilities.
ISTAR, or Airlift, or battlefield mobility (helicopters) in the air, logistic support at sea, SF and ISTAR, as well as good old fashioned PK/PE on land...Last edited by Graylion; 16 September 2017, 09:56.
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Originally posted by ropebag View Postwe're back at the same point we are with the MRV/OPV/whatever-the-hell discussion - should Ireland get something that fits within its own defence structure/operation but that doesn't fit within a wider EU capability, or get something that doesn't quite fit within its own domestic/local structure/operations but that fits into an EU capability?
Originally posted by ropebag View Posti think its difficult to argue that there isn't already some form of demarkation between National defence structure/operations and assets specifically designed for EU/UN use with the formation and resources spent on the ISTAR Coy - so we've got over the issue in principle, whats left is to decide on the practical stuff.
i take the view - as demonstrated by the ISTAR Coy - that the most effective way for Ireland to contribute to EU defence/security is in niche capability. budget and politics mean that a flight of Gripen/F-16 over the Baltic, or a Bde HQ and Mech/Armoured Bn on the Polish border, or a €500m Frigate in the eastern Med simply aren't on the cards, so the DF should look at what fits both the budget constraints and the political constraints and go for enabling cababilities rather than the more politically difficult 'doing' capabilities.
Originally posted by ropebag View PostISTAR, or Airlift, or battlefield mobility (helicopters) in the air, logistic support at sea, SF and ISTAR, as well as good old fashioned PK/PE on land...
What is left is the Air component and this is where I see something like Saab Swordfish being really transformative not just for Ireland but for the whole Euro-Atlantic region. Having four Swordfish as 'guardians' operating in the North-East Atlantic flying out of the Don or Shannon would nail down the domestic needs in the Maritime ISR context but offer a substantive addition to the wider regional security umbrella.Last edited by Anzac; 17 September 2017, 01:26.
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Originally posted by Anzac View Post
What is left is the Air component and this is where I see something like Saab Swordfish being really transformative not just for Ireland but for the whole Euro-Atlantic region. Having four Swordfish as 'guardians' operating in the North-East Atlantic flying out of the Don or Shannon would nail down the domestic needs in the Maritime ISR context but offer a substantive addition to the wider regional security umbrella.
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Originally posted by Graylion View PostI'd love that, but that's be _really_ expensive. Go with smaller MPA based on King Air // Avanti // PC-24 and get our feet wet. Save the money for CASA replacements and buy into EATC. Replace LearJet with Avanti or PC-24.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Originally posted by Graylion View PostI'd love that, but that's be _really_ expensive. Go with smaller MPA based on King Air // Avanti // PC-24 and get our feet wet. Save the money for CASA replacements and buy into EATC. Replace LearJet with Avanti or PC-24.Last edited by Anzac; 17 September 2017, 11:14.
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I'll say it again, I strongly suspect that they didn't go looking for ISR Spec King Airs to replace the Cessna's because DoD would then have insisted on King Airs replacing the Casa's.
The single engine of the PC-12 inherently limits its Marpat capabilities, meaning a separate multi engine Casa replacement is still a must.
The single engine however also limits its eh, suitability, for providing ISR support to the rest of the DF abroad.
It's bizzaro and nutty logic, which is why I believe it's likely to be true.
The idea of a fleet of four long range aircraft of the Swordfish class that are able to work against sub threats and to drop something more devastating than a dinghy.... sign me up.
But I'll repeat myself again - that kind of quantum leap in capability is, in my opinion, only likely to come if the EU waves a big bloody pointy stick at us.
"Oh you want your low corporate tax rate? Oh and what are you contributing to EU Defence? Oh.. well, something will have to give... to begin with, I notice you have a lot of ocean..."Last edited by pym; 17 September 2017, 13:01.
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Originally posted by na grohmití View PostI can't believe you would reject the Swordfish, an established airframe, designed to replace something like Nimrod or P3 Orion based on price alone and still insist on the Avanti toy, a millionaires runabout with a flir stuck on..
15.5 M$ avionics fit - that is a *beep* of a lot more than "a FLIR stuck on"
And I would love a Swordfish or three, I just can't see it happening fiscally.Last edited by Graylion; 17 September 2017, 14:23.
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Originally posted by pym View PostBut I'll repeat myself again - that kind of quantum leap in capability is, in my opinion, only likely to come if the EU waves a big bloody pointy stick at us.
"Oh you want your low corporate tax rate? Oh and what are you contributing to EU Defence? Oh.. well, something will have to give... to begin with, I notice you have a lot of ocean..."
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