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Cessna Replacement - The Options

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  • Dail involved? The DF would be handed over to the Civil Defence and Coastguard

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    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      Dail involved? The DF would be handed over to the Civil Defence and Coastguard
      not so much with democratic control of the military?

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      • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
        The problem is being approached from the bottom up as usual.
        It should be -
        We have to replace some platforms, technology and the AO's environment has changed, so now, what do we need to do todays job and probably the next 25 years job?
        how much is it going to cost? Ok, now go get the money.
        instead its....
        How much are we allowed to spend? Ok, how many platforms can we get for that money? what sensors can we afford to buy to fit into these platforms with whats left over?
        This is why the DOD has been (rightly) accused of penny pinching and micromanaging the DF by members of the DF.
        Agrees, here's my previous post again..

        Maybe its time to stop discussing Cessna replacement, Casa Replacement, PC-9 replacement and maybe do a Proper Re-Org.

        Its more then a decade since the last Re-Org of the AC, with the possibility of capital expenditure, I think its time to do a full ground up Re-Org.

        Maybe host an all arms conference to determine future mission profiles, build a possible fleet model based on these future missions and then establish a flying and support organization to Run and Manage this fleet.

        At this stage the fleet does not need to be type specific, just an outline e.g. A medium Lift Transport Squadron, A ISR Squadron, A Tactical(Heli) Support Squadron etc..

        These should be the aspirations of the AC for the next 20 years, and therefore should be about pushing forward, not just replacing the current fleet with incrementally better aircraft.

        From these mission sets establish the competency’s that would be required of the Pilots, Engineers and support staff and design a training model that provides a pipeline of Staff to each area and establishes Career paths.

        Put everything on the table and aim to build a Mission Focused Military Air Service.

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        • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
          not so much with democratic control of the military?
          There is democratic oversight and control of the DF

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            @graylion

            The figure you've given are €20m per ISTAR BKA against €5m per PC12

            So fuel consumption for 2 engines is the same as one, having to keep spares for twice as many engines is as cheap, all pilots having to be multi-engine rated is as cheap as single engined....

            It is from some aspects (including importantly safety) but economically it isn't. Your going to have a 100% safety record if you can't afford to fly them or train people con them. Yes I want a 100% safety record as well before you ask.



            How is the DF affording new ships? We aren't fully replacing the people who leave, that is fact! Good chance new aircraft will be the same.

            Look at the AAIU reports to see the problems the AC has had trying to keep people qualified but sure let's make it harder!!!
            Yes, But I also suggested, not buying the 295s. And what will happen with singe engine birds is that they will be unusable due not being able to fly over water. 15M€ straight down the drain.

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            • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
              Yes, But I also suggested, not buying the 295s. And what will happen with singe engine birds is that they will be unusable due not being able to fly over water. 15M€ straight down the drain.
              Which in an Irish context means that the 295 can do maritime patrols and heavier transport tasks while the easier andcheaper to own, operate and maintain PC12 can do the ATCP, army support (home and overseas), utility etc

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              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                And what will happen with singe engine birds is that they will be unusable due not being able to fly over water. 15M€ straight down the drain.
                The PC-12 is SEIFR certified in the US, CAN, NZ and Australia for over-water operations. They fly over water on numerous scheduled flights and by the Australian Royal Flying Doctor Service on Medvac flights. The RFDS have even flown trans-tasman in PC-12's. There has only been one ditching in 6 million service hours of the PC-12 in service back in 2001 in the Sea of Okhotsk. All survived.

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                • So what. So is every other turbine single, since they made the first one. The engine doesn't know it's over water but as C252 will tell you, the OEI performance is a bit of an attention getter. The Air Corps used to do a lot of single engine over water/over rough terrain in the Alouette until they had their fill of scares and near misses. It really doesn't matter if it's a PC -12 or a Caravan or any other hull, the PT6 is the common denominator and while it is infinitely reliable, having only one increases the odds of a prang and the last thing the Don wants is to lose an aircraft over water or rough terrain because it's only engine fails to a bird strike or icing or an exceedance.

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                  • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                    The PC-12 is SEIFR certified in the US, CAN, NZ and Australia for over-water operations. They fly over water on numerous scheduled flights and by the Australian Royal Flying Doctor Service on Medvac flights. The RFDS have even flown trans-tasman in PC-12's. There has only been one ditching in 6 million service hours of the PC-12 in service back in 2001 in the Sea of Okhotsk. All survived.
                    I am absolutely willing to put up with a bit of "we know better than you silly Paddys " from some quarters, but anyone who is a choirboy for an aircraft that should never be deemed suitable for operation away from any landmass raises suspicions of the timing of their arrival here on IMO.
                    Bear in mind that 5999999 of those supposed 6m hours were accomplished by sensible operators that didn't go near a coastline with their aircraft or their pax in that timeframe.
                    Last edited by Jetjock; 4 October 2017, 02:05.

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                    • Which one? The one who joined in April promoting the PC12?
                      Or those promoting the Avanti....
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                      • Ah lads, play the ball not the man, put the tin foil hats away.
                        "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                        "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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                        • Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                          I am absolutely willing to put up with a bit of "we know better than you silly Paddys " from some quarters, but anyone who is a choirboy for an aircraft that should never be deemed suitable for operation away from any landmass raises suspicions of the timing of their arrival here on IMO.
                          Bear in mind that 5999999 of those supposed 6m hours were accomplished by sensible operators that didn't go near a coastline with their aircraft or their pax in that timeframe.
                          If you thought for one minute that I have expressed such an attitude as been anti-irish and anti the air corps you are well mistaken. Neither am I promoting the PC-12 or work for Pilatus if you are inferring that. I have just pointing out one or two facts on the aircraft and not once have been disrespectful.

                          The RFDS and Sounds Air are indeed sensible operators.

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                          • Handbags down ladies....
                            "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                            Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                            Illegitimi non carborundum

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                            • Pilatus it is so, remember you saw it here first folks:

                              "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                              "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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                              • Sweet, great to see an aircraft has been selected at last! Looking forward to the details of the contract, from the Twitter post, it looks like we'll find that out later today. Will definitely be an upgrade from a -172, but respect to them and those that have flown them in 45 years!

                                P.S. How about fitting some of the Matra rocket pods from the -172s to the PC-12s?

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