Thanks Thanks:  259
Likes Likes:  536
Dislikes Dislikes:  11
Page 3 of 46 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 1140
  1. #51
    CQMS Exo1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    197
    Post Thanks / Like
    Replacing the Cessna, long overdue... any update on whats coming in instead??....
    "There is nothing braver then the heart of a volunteer" Lt. Col. Dolittle, USAC, 1941.

  2. #52
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Maybe if you read any of the previous 50 posts on the topic you might get a clue?

  3. #53
    CQMS Exo1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    197
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Maybe if you read any of the previous 50 posts on the topic you might get a clue?
    lol... an AirJock with an Attitude... if you had read my question, I asked does anybody know whats coming in instead of the Cessna???.... the thread is full of opinions about whats the most suitable replacement, which is fine... but its not what I asked.....

    So to the rest of the members, does anybody know what is replacing the Cessna??... From my experience, the Cessna has held a good spotting/patrol role, but its too easily spotted by the altitude it flys at. A bigger and quieter aircraft with more survellience and communication toys on it would be ideal for higher altitude flight.... the noise of the cessna makes it detectable too quickly especially when in the hills, and thus coordination of any ground activity makes it a slow moving target in any hot op....IMO
    "There is nothing braver then the heart of a volunteer" Lt. Col. Dolittle, USAC, 1941.

  4. #54
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Hacienda
    Posts
    5,511
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Exo1 View Post
    I asked does anybody know whats coming in instead of the Cessna???.... the thread is full of opinions about whats the most suitable replacement, which is fine... but its not what I asked.....
    Do you not think that if people knew what was replacing it, and was able to tell us, they would have done so already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exo1 View Post
    From my experience, the Cessna has held a good spotting/patrol role, but its too easily spotted by the altitude it flys at.
    Whats your experience in Cessna operations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Exo1 View Post
    A bigger and quieter aircraft with more surveillance and communication toys on it would be ideal for higher altitude flight.... the noise of the Cessna makes it detectable too quickly especially when in the hills, and thus coordination of any ground activity makes it a slow moving target in any hot op....IMO
    Ah here A slow moving target in any hot op? Where do you think you are? Iraq? The Cessna never operated outside of the state and I've never heard of them being fired on, It's replacement won't be doing any coordination of ground activity overseas either, so it's vulnerability to ground fire isn't going to be an issue.

    Can we get back to reality now?
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  5. #55
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,104
    Post Thanks / Like
    There were two Cessna caravan s in the country some time back. Fedex used them.Iromically one of the piots was an ex Aircorop guy...and buy could he fly it.Great aircraft and should be a contender for Rocket Replacement.Good payload, good short field performance and could be used to drop parachutists.

    Yes the single engine perfomance was an issue in the UK but never here.Yes its a power full monster an unsuitable for training but it has many other advantages.
    Just visiting

  6. #56
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    14,497
    Post Thanks / Like
    In all seriousness

    whats wrong with the Cessana

    it does exactly what it says on the tin

    it trains lads- it covers cashes- and a few lads can jump out for parachute jumps

    its like the Alloutte and is lasting a very long time

    its simple to fix

    and simple to store

    why not recognise - yes this is the one

    and buy more of the same or at least very very similar.

    and then we take the money saved and but a lovely new fountain feature

    for DFHQ

    or God Forbid- some stuff for the Soldiers on the Ground
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  7. Likes DeV liked this post
  8. #57
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,325
    Post Thanks / Like
    Exo1
    Did it ever occur to you that the blindingly obvious and noisy presence of a Cessna was a deterrent in itself?
    regards
    GttC

  9. Likes DeV liked this post
  10. #58
    Banned User
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    1,058
    Post Thanks / Like

    shopping list

    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    In all seriousness

    whats wrong with the Cessana

    it does exactly what it says on the tin

    it trains lads- it covers cashes- and a few lads can jump out for parachute jumps

    its like the Alloutte and is lasting a very long time

    its simple to fix

    and simple to store

    why not recognise - yes this is the one

    and buy more of the same or at least very very similar.

    and then we take the money saved and but a lovely new fountain feature

    for DFHQ

    or God Forbid- some stuff for the Soldiers on the Ground
    What would you like?

  11. #59
    CQMS Exo1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    197
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Exo1
    Did it ever occur to you that the blindingly obvious and noisy presence of a Cessna was a deterrent in itself?
    regards
    GttC
    No I didnt, now that you mention it... its use is suitable for some types of ops, and thinking about support to Garda operations, it does have an effect upon reflection.....

    As for me being in Iraq... lol... dude, a slow moving target with a noisy assed engine is a slow moving target with a noisy assed engine... sheesh... I know none have being fired upon, but if a black hawk can be downed with an $5 RPG round... can our imaginations not stretch to think of the danger such a craft could be in if there over an area with bad guys and such military hardware.... point made so Ill get back to reality now...

    And to the last question, my experience in Cessna Operations from an Aer Corps perspective is zero. Have being on deployments where cessnas were used as spotters..
    "There is nothing braver then the heart of a volunteer" Lt. Col. Dolittle, USAC, 1941.

  12. #60
    CQMS Exo1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    197
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    In all seriousness

    whats wrong with the Cessana

    it does exactly what it says on the tin

    it trains lads- it covers cashes- and a few lads can jump out for parachute jumps

    its like the Alloutte and is lasting a very long time

    its simple to fix

    and simple to store

    why not recognise - yes this is the one

    and buy more of the same or at least very very similar.

    and then we take the money saved and but a lovely new fountain feature

    for DFHQ

    or God Forbid- some stuff for the Soldiers on the Ground

    Fair points dude..... it fills a certain role, so put the money into other areas.. sooner or later though, the Aer Corps will replace them, hopefully higher specs along with the same enduring features you speak of about the Cessna..
    "There is nothing braver then the heart of a volunteer" Lt. Col. Dolittle, USAC, 1941.

  13. #61
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Hacienda
    Posts
    5,511
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Exo1 View Post
    As for me being in Iraq... lol... dude, a slow moving target with a noisy assed engine is a slow moving target with a noisy assed engine... sheesh... I know none have being fired upon, but if a black hawk can be downed with an $5 RPG round... can our imaginations not stretch to think of the danger such a craft could be in if there over an area with bad guys and such military hardware.... point made so Ill get back to reality now...
    Your imagination is stretching way too far there 'dude'. The Cessna does not fly over places like Mogadishu or Baghdad, it flies over places like Monaghan and Ballina and will never do otherwise. Over the thirty-odd years of the troubles the various terror groups, who had the means & the motivation, never once took a shot at them and the chance that a bunch of Islamists are going to smuggle in RPG's to try this is minuscule.

    Black Hawks got downed because they were circling low & slow above a massive arms bazaar filled with people who didn't like Americans, not the kind of place a CIT escort heads to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exo1 View Post
    And to the last question, my experience in Cessna Operations from an Aer Corps perspective is zero.
    So I gathered.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  14. #62
    CQMS Exo1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    197
    Post Thanks / Like
    I never claimed to have any either form an Aer Corps perpective.. try being less of a smartass, and more constructive when folks ask a question.. You might outdo yourself and sound a little intelligent.. as my interest in your opinions falls rapidly, allow me to make a final effort with you... my experience lies on the Army side, I have often seen a cessna fly overhead in ops and wondered at how easy it would be to shoot it down.. and yes its VERY easy.. hence my original question.. you are right when said none went down cos none were fired upon.. part politics, part luck..
    Last edited by FMolloy; 15th May 2007 at 20:26.
    "There is nothing braver then the heart of a volunteer" Lt. Col. Dolittle, USAC, 1941.

  15. #63
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Hacienda
    Posts
    5,511
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Exo1 View Post
    try being less of a smartass, and more constructive when folks ask a question.. You might outdo yourself and sound a little intelligent.
    This coming from the man who reckons the AC should be worried about Cessnas coming under fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exo1 View Post
    as my interest in your opinions falls rapidly, allow me to make a final effort with you...
    Don't bother on my account, I'm sure I'll survive somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exo1 View Post
    my experience lies on the Army side, I have often seen a cessna fly overhead in ops and wondered at how easy it would be to shoot it down.. and yes its VERY easy..
    Very easy for who? No one in country, apart from the DF, has the ability to do this and the Cessna doesn't operate abroad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exo1 View Post
    you are right when said none went down cos none were fired upon.. part politics, part luck..
    Or it was due to the fact that the IRA weren't that good at doing so.


    That's the end of the shite-talk, back to reality. There'll be no more talk of how vunerable the Cessna is to RPGs, no mention of how it's replacement should have to be able to survive AA fire or any other crap.
    Last edited by FMolloy; 15th May 2007 at 17:11.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  16. #64
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    It is highly vulnerable to 40mm L70 fire coming from the Gormo area....

  17. Likes DeV liked this post
  18. #65
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Real Republic
    Posts
    6,182
    Post Thanks / Like
    Or maybe 12.7mm from PC-9 platform

    (Stirrrr it Uppp)

  19. #66
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thats just silly. The PC-9 doesn't engage flying targets(contrary to the promises the government made for its purchase)

  20. #67
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    you already know too much
    Posts
    33,440
    Post Thanks / Like
    Deputy Joe Carey asked the Minister for Defence
    his plans for the replacement of the Air Corps’ Cessna fleet, which is 34 years old; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
    [34435/07]

    Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea):
    As Minister for Defence I am delighted with the level of investment in new equipment for the Air Corps in recent years. The comprehensive investment programme included:·the delivery of eight Pilatus training aircraft at a total cost of €60m, inclusive of VAT.

    ·two light utility EC 135 helicopters acquired from Eurocopter S.A.S. at a cost of €12.8m, inclusive of VAT.

    ·six utility AW 139 helicopters acquired from the AgustaWestland at a cost of €75m inclusive of VAT, the final two of which are scheduled for delivery in 2008.

    In addition, a major mid life upgrade on the two Casa maritime patrol aircraft, at a cost of €16.5m, is underway - work on the first aircraft is now complete, work on the second aircraft will be completed in 2008. The question of replacement of the Air Corps Cessna Fleet is under active consideration at present. The question of funding the replacement programme has to be considered in tandem with the overall equipment requirements of the Defence Forces generally and the funding available for same.

  21. #68
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,815
    Post Thanks / Like
    If everyone's happy that the Cessna does the job, it's just that it's getting old, then just buy some new ones. They're cheap: €200K gets you the diesel version (to save the taxpayers' money and keep the Greens happy).

    If they had some imagination out in Baldonnell - how come no-one calls it Casement??? - they could buy a dozen new Cessnas, both to replace the existing ones and to do basic pilot training. That would free up some PC-9s for close air support work with the guys on the ground. (If the Chad Air Force can do it...)

  22. #69
    Closed Account
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Villa Straylight
    Posts
    2,082
    Post Thanks / Like
    Strange suggestion - and one for the medium term - Expand the helicopter numbers for domestic operations, and then use something like this for other work, including supporting deployed forces abroad. Obviously something in the C-27/CN-295 would be much better, but the funding for the purchase and operation of an aircraft of that size may not be forthcoming.

    http://www2.afsoc.af.mil/library/fac...eet.asp?id=226

  23. #70
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,815
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    Strange suggestion - and one for the medium term - Expand the helicopter numbers for domestic operations, and then use something like this for other work, including supporting deployed forces abroad. Obviously something in the C-27/CN-295 would be much better, but the funding for the purchase and operation of an aircraft of that size may not be forthcoming.

    http://www2.afsoc.af.mil/library/fac...eet.asp?id=226

    Looks similar to the Cessna Caravan. How do they compare?

    BTW, one of the reasons I suggested the Cessna 172 for training is that the Iraqi Air Force - with a little help from their USAF friends - have just bought a load of new 172s, to be used as their standard pilot training aircraft. Think they operate Caravans too.

  24. #71
    C/S
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    450
    Post Thanks / Like
    In fairness to the man, the reason no Cessnas were shot down was not because the IRA were not capable of it. A .50 would do it, as certain British Army helicopter crew will attest. Indeed, a GPMG would do it.
    It didn't happen because the green book forbade engaging the "southern forces", lest we forget.

    There are good reasons for having a cheap and simple bird like the Cessna, but in your haste to shoot the man down you may have overlooked the question of whether Irish air assets will ever need to be deployed overseas in the light of Ireland's increasing international role.
    Of course we can't deploy what we don't have, but I find it strange to argue that we will never need an aircraft capable of carrying more than a few paras, or that because the IRA never took it into their heads to declare war on the Republic, we need never ever worry about recce aircraft facing ground fire. On the strength of threats we've never faced before, we don't needed AA capability, certainly don't need artillery and probably don't need more than five Piranhas either.

    Acquisitions should be about building capability.

  25. #72
    Soft-spoken Engineer Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Somewhere on OS map 47
    Posts
    1,082
    Post Thanks / Like
    Why not a single engine Turbo Beaver?
    I appreciate that you're my employer, and an old man besides....

    But if you don't take your goddamn hands off me, I will cut you in half.

  26. #73
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Hacienda
    Posts
    5,511
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    In fairness to the man, the reason no Cessnas were shot down was not because the IRA were not capable of it. A .50 would do it, as certain British Army helicopter crew will attest. Indeed, a GPMG would do it.
    It didn't happen because the green book forbade engaging the "southern forces", lest we forget.
    In all the years of the troubles the IRA tried to shoot down British helicopters twenty three times & only succeeded four times. Out of those four downed helicopters, at least two were hovering low to the ground and all four were flying at a very low altitude. In some of these attacks the IRA used several machine guns and RPGs at the same time, yet still couldn't manage to completely destroy any helicopters or kill the crew. And for all their talk of SAMs, they missed with their only firing. They just weren't good at anti-aircraft gunnery. Any time I've seen a Cessna do a cash escort or co-op it's been at a high enough altitude, I doubt very much the IRA would have been able to shoot one of them down with a machine gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    There are good reasons for having a cheap and simple bird like the Cessna, but in your haste to shoot the man down you may have overlooked the question of whether Irish air assets will ever need to be deployed overseas in the light of Ireland's increasing international role.
    That might well be the case, but neither the Cessna nor it's replacement will be used to do this so there's no point in worrying about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    Of course we can't deploy what we don't have, but I find it strange to argue that we will never need an aircraft capable of carrying more than a few paras, or that because the IRA never took it into their heads to declare war on the Republic, we need never ever worry about recce aircraft facing ground fire. On the strength of threats we've never faced before, we don't needed AA capability, certainly don't need artillery and probably don't need more than five Piranhas either.

    Acquisitions should be about building capability.
    I'm not saying we don't need bigger aircraft, but they should be a seperate acquisition to a Cessna replacement.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  27. #74
    C/S
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Johannesburg
    Posts
    450
    Post Thanks / Like
    One enemy's poor gunnery is not proof that the aircraft is safe from machine gun fire. Just because no rounds fired at me have ever hit doesn't mean I ditch my armour. IRA marksmanship was typically on a par with the average West African street gang so the good guys got lucky, but luck is not a reliable defence. The SAAF lost Pumas to small arms ground fire in Angola, for example.

    In the recce role, the Cessna is obsolete. UAVs have longer endurance with no risk to the operator. To provide military parachute training, the Cessnas are utterly inadequate.
    Perhaps a Cessna Caravan might give a little more in the way of utility and recce. It can be equipped with IR imaging, and can at least carry a section of paratroopers.
    If they were in their prime, then let them continue but if they are to be replaced I'd suggest that a single-seat, limited capacity utility/obervation plane no longer has military value, however low the cost and however little threat we think we'll ever face.

  28. #75
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,815
    Post Thanks / Like
    Another option, for the surveillance/reconnaissance role (including CIT and other escort jobs),



    The MPP (Multi-Purpose Platform) version of the Diamond DA42. Here's the brochure:

    http://www.hezolinem.com/anexos/produto984/DA42_MPP.pdf

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •