Thanks Thanks:  276
Likes Likes:  569
Dislikes Dislikes:  16
Page 44 of 48 FirstFirst ... 344243444546 ... LastLast
Results 1,076 to 1,100 of 1183
  1. #1076
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    82
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Claudel Hopson View Post
    They were found to be "unsuitable" after the US offered Texans to go with their Blackhawks, not unlike New Zealand who were to buy PC9s as well but then got the same offer as the Mexicans.
    Just to clear up a misconception. The RNZAF never were to buy PC-9's. Pilatus like a number of others from industry answered an RFI for a Pilot Training Capability that included not just the airframes but importantly a full spectrum support and training curriculum package, which was the defining characteristic in Hawker Pacific getting the contract.

  2. Thanks DeV, sofa thanked for this post
  3. #1077
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    82
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The US would rather you bought Beech T6s, probably at fire sale prices, to deny the Swiss sales to people the US considers "their" friends. The downside is that the nearest PC-9 user is Australia and the aircraft are essentially incompatible...
    ... the RAAF last month IOC'ed the Swiss PC-21 into service

    http://australianaviation.com.au/201...-raaf-service/

  4. #1078
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,754
    Post Thanks / Like
    going back to the ISTAR requirement for the Cessna replacement...

    http://https://www.flightglobal.com/...llance-441135/

    short version, the RAF is upgrading its existing 5 King Air 350CER/Shadow R1's to R2 standard and buying another 3 KA 350CER airframes at R2 standard.

    an excellent opportunity for a biggyback buy?

  5. Likes Turkey liked this post
  6. #1079
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    82
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    going back to the ISTAR requirement for the Cessna replacement...

    http://https://www.flightglobal.com/...llance-441135/

    short version, the RAF is upgrading its existing 5 King Air 350CER/Shadow R1's to R2 standard and buying another 3 KA 350CER airframes at R2 standard.

    an excellent opportunity for a biggyback buy?
    If you are sure that the rolling out the door price at circa £14 million per unit is fine. You may find that the DSCA transfer policies would get in the way at the US end however.

  7. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post
  8. #1080
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,754
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    If you are sure that the rolling out the door price at circa £14 million per unit is fine...
    well, its fine for us...

  9. #1081
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Baltinglass
    Posts
    356
    Post Thanks / Like
    Do we know enough about the role of the Shadows to know whether they'd be useful?

  10. #1082
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,754
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Do we know enough about the role of the Shadows to know whether they'd be useful?
    What is it you want to be able to do?

    They are a hugely capable theatre-level int asset, they fall solidly into the 'things any operational commander would willingly sell his children's souls to have' pile...

    Much more useful than, say, a random and barely equipped light Infantry Bn - and, for the cynical politician, much less controversial and publicity attracting.
    Last edited by ropebag; 15th September 2017 at 17:32.

  11. Likes The real Jack, Turkey liked this post
  12. #1083
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Baltinglass
    Posts
    356
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    What is it you want to be able to do?

    They are a hugely capable theatre-level int asset, they fall solidly into the 'things any operational commander would willingly sell his children's souls to have' pile...

    Much more useful than, say, a random and barely equipped light Infantry Bn - and, for the cynical politician, much less controversial and publicity attracting.
    Oh I fully agree - I just want some surface surveillance as well (RADAR and FLIR), so we can tick the MPA box.

    Only thing about them is that the ekeltrickery is by Lockheed. I'd rather have the SAAB suite.
    Last edited by Graylion; 15th September 2017 at 22:22.

  13. Likes WhingeNot liked this post
  14. #1084
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,754
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Oh I fully agree - I just want some surface surveillance as well (RADAR and FLIR), so we can tick the MPA box...
    we're back at the same point we are with the MRV/OPV/whatever-the-hell discussion - should Ireland get something that fits within its own defence structure/operation but that doesn't fit within a wider EU capability, or get something that doesn't quite fit within its own domestic/local structure/operations but that fits into an EU capability?

    i think its difficult to argue that there isn't already some form of demarkation between National defence structure/operations and assets specifically designed for EU/UN use with the formation and resources spent on the ISTAR Coy - so we've got over the issue in principle, whats left is to decide on the practical stuff.

    i take the view - as demonstrated by the ISTAR Coy - that the most effective way for Ireland to contribute to EU defence/security is in niche capability. budget and politics mean that a flight of Gripen/F-16 over the Baltic, or a Bde HQ and Mech/Armoured Bn on the Polish border, or a €500m Frigate in the eastern Med simply aren't on the cards, so the DF should look at what fits both the budget constraints and the political constraints and go for enabling cababilities rather than the more politically difficult 'doing' capabilities.

    ISTAR, or Airlift, or battlefield mobility (helicopters) in the air, logistic support at sea, SF and ISTAR, as well as good old fashioned PK/PE on land...

  15. Likes Graylion, Sparky42 liked this post
  16. #1085
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Baltinglass
    Posts
    356
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    we're back at the same point we are with the MRV/OPV/whatever-the-hell discussion - should Ireland get something that fits within its own defence structure/operation but that doesn't fit within a wider EU capability, or get something that doesn't quite fit within its own domestic/local structure/operations but that fits into an EU capability?

    i think its difficult to argue that there isn't already some form of demarkation between National defence structure/operations and assets specifically designed for EU/UN use with the formation and resources spent on the ISTAR Coy - so we've got over the issue in principle, whats left is to decide on the practical stuff.

    i take the view - as demonstrated by the ISTAR Coy - that the most effective way for Ireland to contribute to EU defence/security is in niche capability. budget and politics mean that a flight of Gripen/F-16 over the Baltic, or a Bde HQ and Mech/Armoured Bn on the Polish border, or a €500m Frigate in the eastern Med simply aren't on the cards, so the DF should look at what fits both the budget constraints and the political constraints and go for enabling cababilities rather than the more politically difficult 'doing' capabilities.

    ISTAR, or Airlift, or battlefield mobility (helicopters) in the air, logistic support at sea, SF and ISTAR, as well as good old fashioned PK/PE on land...
    completely and utterly d'accord. I;d add that we also should see about procuring capabilities through our allies. EATC is one way to do this. We really don't need 2 small cargo birds cum MPA for 3 cargo runs a year where we also have to procure civilian lift capacity.
    Last edited by Graylion; 16th September 2017 at 09:56.

  17. Dislikes Spark23 disliked this post
  18. #1086
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    82
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    we're back at the same point we are with the MRV/OPV/whatever-the-hell discussion - should Ireland get something that fits within its own defence structure/operation but that doesn't fit within a wider EU capability, or get something that doesn't quite fit within its own domestic/local structure/operations but that fits into an EU capability?
    From a policy standpoint the way to go is a niche capability solution that has mission efficacy within the context of Ireland’s EEZ Conops whilst building on one’s existing strengths, yet also contributes to the wider geo-security context of the Euro-Atlantic region in a meaningful way. It does not have to be an either or kind of choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    i think its difficult to argue that there isn't already some form of demarkation between National defence structure/operations and assets specifically designed for EU/UN use with the formation and resources spent on the ISTAR Coy - so we've got over the issue in principle, whats left is to decide on the practical stuff.

    i take the view - as demonstrated by the ISTAR Coy - that the most effective way for Ireland to contribute to EU defence/security is in niche capability. budget and politics mean that a flight of Gripen/F-16 over the Baltic, or a Bde HQ and Mech/Armoured Bn on the Polish border, or a €500m Frigate in the eastern Med simply aren't on the cards, so the DF should look at what fits both the budget constraints and the political constraints and go for enabling cababilities rather than the more politically difficult 'doing' capabilities.
    Timeframe wise the opportunity wont present itself until the MPA capability requires replacement but a tier 1 maritime ISR platform with overland capabilities is where this local-global dilemma could be solved.

    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    ISTAR, or Airlift, or battlefield mobility (helicopters) in the air, logistic support at sea, SF and ISTAR, as well as good old fashioned PK/PE on land...
    One or two capability sets from each of the service components Land, Maritime and Air, that can offer both a domestic and an EU/International output would be an ideal consideration for force planning. Land component already offers ARW and ISTAR Company, and the planned MRV in the maritime component is an ideal capability to meet this niche criteria and what it offers is well known. Those boxes are ticked.

    What is left is the Air component and this is where I see something like Saab Swordfish being really transformative not just for Ireland but for the whole Euro-Atlantic region. Having four Swordfish as 'guardians' operating in the North-East Atlantic flying out of the Don or Shannon would nail down the domestic needs in the Maritime ISR context but offer a substantive addition to the wider regional security umbrella.
    Last edited by Anzac; 17th September 2017 at 01:26.

  19. #1087
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    92
    Post Thanks / Like
    Correction..! My two recent mentions of PC-24s,.. were typos - I was referring of course to the 'Heir Apparent' - the turbo-prop' PC-12 that I listed details for... Carry on!

  20. #1088
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Baltinglass
    Posts
    356
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post

    What is left is the Air component and this is where I see something like Saab Swordfish being really transformative not just for Ireland but for the whole Euro-Atlantic region. Having four Swordfish as 'guardians' operating in the North-East Atlantic flying out of the Don or Shannon would nail down the domestic needs in the Maritime ISR context but offer a substantive addition to the wider regional security umbrella.
    I'd love that, but that's be _really_ expensive. Go with smaller MPA based on King Air // Avanti // PC-24 and get our feet wet. Save the money for CASA replacements and buy into EATC. Replace LearJet with Avanti or PC-24.

  21. #1089
    Major General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,398
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    I'd love that, but that's be _really_ expensive. Go with smaller MPA based on King Air // Avanti // PC-24 and get our feet wet. Save the money for CASA replacements and buy into EATC. Replace LearJet with Avanti or PC-24.
    I can't believe you would reject the Swordfish, an established airframe, designed to replace something like Nimrod or P3 Orion based on price alone and still insist on the Avanti toy, a millionaires runabout with a flir stuck on..
    Well, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Neil will be taking over both branches, and some of you will lose your jobs. Those of you who are kept on will have to relocate to Swindon, if you wanna stay. I know, gutting. On a more positive note, the good news is, I've been promoted, so... every cloud. You're still thinking about the bad news aren't you?

  22. #1090
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    82
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    I'd love that, but that's be _really_ expensive. Go with smaller MPA based on King Air // Avanti // PC-24 and get our feet wet. Save the money for CASA replacements and buy into EATC. Replace LearJet with Avanti or PC-24.
    Your feet are already wet, you are already in the long mission MPA game. It is taking it to the next capability level and if you noticed I was discussing Swordfish in the context of the CASA replacement and the ability of the Air Corps to offer a tier 1 capability in the regional context. Yes it makes sense to also have a second tier adjunct capability like PC-12, KingAir for inner EEZ constabulary work whilst the prime asset concentrates on the prime ISR taskings.
    Last edited by Anzac; 17th September 2017 at 11:14.

  23. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
  24. #1091
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,940
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'll say it again, I strongly suspect that they didn't go looking for ISR Spec King Airs to replace the Cessna's because DoD would then have insisted on King Airs replacing the Casa's.

    The single engine of the PC-12 inherently limits its Marpat capabilities, meaning a separate multi engine Casa replacement is still a must.

    The single engine however also limits its eh, suitability, for providing ISR support to the rest of the DF abroad.

    It's bizzaro and nutty logic, which is why I believe it's likely to be true.

    The idea of a fleet of four long range aircraft of the Swordfish class that are able to work against sub threats and to drop something more devastating than a dinghy.... sign me up.

    But I'll repeat myself again - that kind of quantum leap in capability is, in my opinion, only likely to come if the EU waves a big bloody pointy stick at us.

    "Oh you want your low corporate tax rate? Oh and what are you contributing to EU Defence? Oh.. well, something will have to give... to begin with, I notice you have a lot of ocean..."
    Last edited by pym; 17th September 2017 at 13:01.

  25. #1092
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Baltinglass
    Posts
    356
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    I can't believe you would reject the Swordfish, an established airframe, designed to replace something like Nimrod or P3 Orion based on price alone and still insist on the Avanti toy, a millionaires runabout with a flir stuck on..
    reworked airframe with wider wingspan and 3300 nm range

    15.5 M$ avionics fit - that is a *beep* of a lot more than "a FLIR stuck on"

    And I would love a Swordfish or three, I just can't see it happening fiscally.
    Last edited by Graylion; 17th September 2017 at 14:23.

  26. #1093
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Baltinglass
    Posts
    356
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    But I'll repeat myself again - that kind of quantum leap in capability is, in my opinion, only likely to come if the EU waves a big bloody pointy stick at us.

    "Oh you want your low corporate tax rate? Oh and what are you contributing to EU Defence? Oh.. well, something will have to give... to begin with, I notice you have a lot of ocean..."
    *g* - and we'd need a higher corporation tax to pay for it ....

  27. #1094
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,869
    Post Thanks / Like
    I suspect that the reason they decided to go single engine is more to do with running costs and crew availability

  28. #1095
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,940
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I suspect that the reason they decided to go single engine is more to do with running costs and crew availability
    And running costs are a fine reason if the plan is to leave them at home.

  29. Likes Graylion liked this post
  30. #1096
    Sergeant
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    82
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post


    The idea of a fleet of four long range aircraft of the Swordfish class that are able to work against sub threats and to drop something more devastating than a dinghy.... sign me up.

    But I'll repeat myself again - that kind of quantum leap in capability is, in my opinion, only likely to come if the EU waves a big bloody pointy stick at us.

    "Oh you want your low corporate tax rate? Oh and what are you contributing to EU Defence? Oh.. well, something will have to give... to begin with, I notice you have a lot of ocean..."
    PESCO (Permanent Structured Cooperation) is going to happen and the pressure will come on from the other European Capitals to spread the load of the required strategic weight that the PESCO negotiations are after. Ireland will have to be seen to be doing something even though it may wish to hold on to the "shop front" of neutrality and not offer a formal commitment through PESCO into participation.

    At least with Swordfish Ireland could point their big stick to a maritime capability set that would be the most capable in the Post Brexit EU and say in return to pressure from other capitals - what do you mean we are not doing enough - we are guarding your left flank here contributing to freedom of navigation across the Atlantic to North America, patrolling this now larger EEZ and SAR zone?

    It maybe indeed be a cost neutral option to maintain neutrality because Juncker and Tusk will find a way a way to make you pay for it. Imagine a compulsory defence surcharge on all (Post Brexit) EU27 members based on the size and wealth of ones domestic economy. If Ireland makes up 2% of the EU Economy and they want 5.5B Euros p.a to fund PESCO each year then you'd be up for 110 million a year on a pro-rata basis. You'd might as well spend the money on ones own Defence Force rather than funding something you'd have no control over.

    From a non irish citizens perspective, Ireland as a wealthy western liberal democracy that relies on interdependence in diplomacy, trade and security between other nations and EU partners, does have a responsibility towards the collective common good of those interests even if you are not entering into a formal defence relationship.
    Last edited by Anzac; 18th September 2017 at 11:57.

  31. Likes ropebag, Graylion, pym liked this post
  32. #1097
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    19,869
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    And running costs are a fine reason if the plan is to leave them at home.
    Or to put it another way it is easier and cheaper to deploy

  33. Dislikes Graylion disliked this post
  34. #1098
    Recruit
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Baltinglass
    Posts
    356
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post

    From a non irish citizens perspective, Ireland as a wealthy western liberal democracy that relies on interdependence in diplomacy, trade and security between other nations and EU partners, does have a responsibility towards the collective common good of those interests even if you are not entering into a formal defence relationship.
    Indeed! If only the Irish public got that.

  35. #1099
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,754
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Or to put it another way it is easier and cheaper to deploy
    Oh Dev...

    No operational commander is going to accept the PC-12 and the logistics train that goes with it because it's a) not far off useless, and b) so vulnerable (single engine, no DAS) that it gives him nothing but a headache.

    So, you are correct in one way - they are cheaper to deploy because no one will have them, so they won't deploy...

    The Irish government, not - apparently - being fools, know this and deliberately picked the PC-12 to rid them of any danger of having to do anything expensive or controversial with it.

    Turf cutting and 'fact finding' missions to Switzerland...

  36. Thanks pym thanked for this post
    Likes Graylion, sofa liked this post
  37. #1100
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Metropolis
    Posts
    3,006
    Post Thanks / Like
    The real reason why we need properly equipped naval service and an air corps which has access to multiple high performance maritime patrol platforms.
    http://www.askaboutireland.ie/readin...an-environmen/
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  38. Likes Anzac, Graylion, ropebag liked this post

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •