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Cessna Replacement - The Options

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  • Originally posted by pym View Post
    The King Air looks like a great choice for a lot of potential roles, but at the risk of going off topic, given it's around a 1500 mile round trip from Bal to the Maury Channel - not allowing for any time on station - is a 350i/ER going to be sufficient for our MPA needs/responsibilities?
    Well if you leave the Atlantic Patrols to the CASAs it could do some MPA patrols off the east coast like the HM Coastguard do in the dover straits.
    It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
    It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
    It was a new age...It was the end of history.
    It was the year everything changed.

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    • The second image in #644 makes a good case for basing maritime ac in the west

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      • They'd kill their first born before they'd give up a Casa for a King Air.....for local ISTAR (Gardai stuff or overseas UN related stuff), air ambulance, cargo, liaison (routine ass-and-trash hauling), even parachuting. An aircraft that can deploy itself.....I was on a five day trip in 240, way back when. RJ, three pilots converting onto type, the steward and me as the toolbox carrier. We went from the Don to the UK, France, Spain, Germany, Holland , Belgium, Norway and Finland over five days and nights, doing Airways flights and she never missed a beat. Multiple landings, climbs and descents, in hot and cold, sun, rain,etc and nothing broke or gave trouble. I never had to open the toolbox and all I had to do was the daily and top up the oil. That was and still is impressive reliability. I've worked on quite a variety of aircraft in my time and there's precious few that would give you five days hard work and have nothing fail or need to be replaced or topped up or changed. When we finished after five days, it was given a Weekly and was back on the ramp, ready to go, inside two hours. You'd be a fool not to consider a King Air for this tender.

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        • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
          Realistically what should make a 1500 mile roundtrip with a low level segment..
          HC-130J

          I'm not arguing against the King Air, it's a great aircraft and the uses are pretty much endless - I just wonder if they were brought in and given a MARPAT role, whether that would put paid to any chance of the Casa's being replaced by C-295's or, god forbid, something bigger and longer legged.

          In a sane situation, it wouldnt. But this is Ireland.
          Last edited by pym; 2 May 2016, 23:23.

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          • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
            Realistically what could make a 1500 mile roundtrip with a low level segment..
            The B200 will give you 30 mins on station at about 300NM if you fly a hi-lo-hi (20000ft - 5000ft - 20000ft) profile. The B350 will probably allow you to extend to 45-50 mins on station or do 30 mins at 350NM. Obviously not talking P3/P8/Atlantique or even Casa legs so really it all comes down to how much work there is that is actually happening within these parameters and that can thus be downloaded from a larger airframe.

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            • 20000 ft is high for such a short leg, more usual to get 14 to 15,000, as you'll spend so little time at cruise......A King Air is fast enough yet has very good slow speed behaviour for low level orbits of a target.

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              • Originally posted by Orion View Post
                The second image in #644 makes a good case for basing maritime ac in the west
                Move the AC lock, stock and barrel to Shannon. Improved availability and range for maritime flights, more space available for AC facilities and Shannon gets a boost to justify its existance.

                Sell Bal and proceeds could fund secure, stand alone military section in Shannon. Probably have a few quid over for new aircraft, etc. and maybe some new toys for army too.
                An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                • Except then you may increase response times to missions in the Greater Dublin area, could be MATS, GASU, ARW deployment etc

                  Detachments cause headaches and as we have seen accidents (the country is small enough to utilise 1 base, the AC's establishment (never mind strength) is too small to sustain it).

                  Also remember that the bulk of their training areas (ie restricted airspace) is in the Baldonnel & Midlands areas

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                  • I'm not sure MATS is a sound enough argument to stay where they are....or ARW, etc.

                    As it is heli has to fly to ARW location then to incident, whether its flies from Baldonnal or Shannon wouldn't make a significant difference. And we all know if "they" wanted an asset somewhere, somewhen, it would be made happen regardless of everything else.

                    EAS already operates from Athlone and conceivably could operate equally well or better from Shannon as most of its calls are on Western side of country.

                    As for MATS, well you could argue is it a luxury for politicians the AC can ill afford (there's lots of examples of foreign politicians flying commercial regularly. Ryanair even offering private business service now which could be utilised). I'm sure Gardai would be delighted to independantly own their own air assets and support also.

                    as for all other army support flight operations and flight training, I can't think of any mission types that couldn't continue in the areas they regulalry operate in or couldn't be done (in case of flight training) in new areas.
                    Last edited by X-RayOne; 4 May 2016, 14:03.
                    An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                    • Inertia, thy name is Dev!

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                      • Won't be an issue unless the air corps increases in size and/or size of aircraft. Not much you can do with baldonnel. Shannon is surely a readymade answer if such expansion ever happens? If it did then a useful detachment would be a permanent helicopter or two based at the curragh, surely?
                        Last edited by expat01; 4 May 2016, 15:32.

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                        • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                          If it did then a useful detachment would be a permanent helicopter or two based at the curragh, surely?
                          Same thing has in effect happened with EAS detachment in Athlone.

                          If AC ever moved, EAS could be run from Shannon along with all else and Current detachment could move to Curragh as support to SF. No big issues and better availability all round for EAS and ARW.
                          An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                          • Originally posted by X-RayOne View Post
                            Same thing has in effect happened with EAS detachment in Athlone.

                            If AC ever moved, EAS could be run from Shannon along with all else and Current detachment could move to Curragh as support to SF. No big issues and better availability all round for EAS and ARW.
                            Why base EAS in Shannon when there is a IRCG helo there which can be tasked with them same mission?

                            You'd be shocked if you knew how few pilot appointments there are in an AC operational squadron (and due to the amount of vacancies, plus overseas, courses, leave, duties, etc in reality there are even less).

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                            • Originally posted by X-RayOne View Post
                              As it is heli has to fly to ARW location then to incident, whether its flies from Baldonnal or Shannon wouldn't make a significant difference. And we all know if "they" wanted an asset somewhere, somewhen, it would be made happen regardless of everything else.
                              after normal hours both the helo and the ARW are on call. Once launched it would be probably less than 10 minutes Baldonnel to DFTC, how long from Shannon?

                              As for MATS, well you could argue is it a luxury for politicians the AC can ill afford (there's lots of examples of foreign politicians flying commercial regularly. Ryanair even offering private business service now which could be utilised). I'm sure Gardai would be delighted to independantly own their own air assets and support also.
                              which is why MATS hours have been reduced. But base it in Shannon and you will be adding hours to their flight time (and cost). Oh and don't forget the air ambulance missions where minutes can matter.

                              as for all other army support flight operations and flight training, I can't think of any mission types that couldn't continue in the areas they regulalry operate in or couldn't be done (in case of flight training) in new areas.
                              I'm not saying they couldn't but doing low level overland land nav ex's over the Atlantic may not provide the required training. Using existing training areas means more hours and more fuel (more €€€).


                              I'm not saying I'm dead against it but there are things to consider. The primary concern I would have is personnel numbers. The establishment isn't high enough (never mind the strength) to keep any 24/7 operational detachments going safely.

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                              • The Don spent most of it's time on two operational bases, remember and did have Rineanna, way back when, for the very obvious need to cover the west coast. They would give up Baldonnel only if ordered to do so on pain of death, as it is convenient for the Curragh and realistically, the greater mass of the Donners live in Greater Dublin, so if you did displace the Don, the whinging would be appalling, not to mind the social cost. As for access to training areas, that is not an issue as the Midlands training areas are equally accessable from the other side, ie, from Shannon. In effect, they go where they like anyway. Dev, if you did deploy a Casa to Shannon permanently, you'll find no shortage of technical talent there. I'm sure they'd be able to mind a little old Casa.

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