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  • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The Don spent most of it's time on two operational bases, remember and did have Rineanna, way back when, for the very obvious need to cover the west coast.
    When they had higher establishments, more (but aged) aircraft and were closer to establishment.

    They would give up Baldonnel only if ordered to do so on pain of death, as it is convenient for the Curragh and realistically, the greater mass of the Donners live in Greater Dublin, so if you did displace the Don, the whinging would be appalling, not to mind the social cost.
    Of course it would it's a strategic asset - are there other options? Of course there are

    The AC is about 15% below its (already not high enough) establishment. I very much doubt telling the 700 or so people that there jobs are moving across the country will aid retention.


    As for access to training areas, that is not an issue as the Midlands training areas are equally accessable from the other side, ie, from Shannon. In effect, they go where they like anyway.
    An aircraft taking off from Baldonnel is taking off into restricted airspace and then onto the MOAs which cover a lot of the Midlands.

    I'm not saying moving the AC to Shannon would not mean new restricted airspace and MOAs, I'm saying that there is a "commute" from Shannon to the MOAs.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2.../made/en/print (See map at bottom of the link)

    Dev, if you did deploy a Casa to Shannon permanently, you'll find no shortage of technical talent there. I'm sure they'd be able to mind a little old Casa.
    if you contract it out - yes

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    • Dev, I respect a lot of what you post, but I've noticed that your default answer to any suggestion of change is "can't work, won't work, isn't needed". I think it's wrong-headed.
      Not just because I think Baldonnel is a waste of space.

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      • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
        Dev, I respect a lot of what you post, but I've noticed that your default answer to any suggestion of change is "can't work, won't work, isn't needed". I think it's wrong-headed.
        Not just because I think Baldonnel is a waste of space.
        Competing requirements, priorities, realism, etc

        A lot would have to be done to make it happen, not least recruiting (and retaining) sufficient personnel something they probably haven't been able to do in 30 years.

        Again I'm not saying it is impossible or shouldn't be done but they are things to consider
        Last edited by DeV; 5 May 2016, 09:23.

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        • I always understood the AC also operated from the Motor Sqn Camp in Fermoy fado fado.

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            .......


            I'm not saying I'm dead against it but there are things to consider. The primary concern I would have is personnel numbers. The establishment isn't high enough (never mind the strength) to keep any 24/7 operational detachments going safely.

            The CG (CHC ) are able to keep 4 detachments opn 24/7 with a fraction of overall establishment.

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            • Establishment and strength arguably more than enough for what the air corps does ie, 1 EAS machine daylight hours only, 1 inter hospital transfer helicopter by night, maritime patrol/top cover/air ambulance on a best effort basis, everything else training more or less. Problems with the maintenance on aircraft farmed out over a multitude of sub units, air corps CS4 still structured the same way it was in the 60's, any attempt to review it always fobbed off. What ever happened to the review that was meant to happen after the re-org of the army into two brigades?

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              • Originally posted by danno View Post
                The CG (CHC ) are able to keep 4 detachments opn 24/7 with a fraction of overall establishment.
                For whom it is their sole job.

                4 aircrew and 2 ground crew on each of the 4 shifts (8 pilots (2 per shift) to keep 1 aircraft available at 15-45 mins 24/7/365).

                The EC135 EAS had a roster of 4 pilots to give single pilot daylight only VFR at immediately notice.

                The AC have only 60% of the pilot establishment and 30% of the tech OR establishment filled. Even if they were up to establishment they wouldn't have enough to provide a widely deployable 24/7 capability.
                Last edited by DeV; 5 May 2016, 09:25.

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                • Originally posted by Spark23 View Post
                  Establishment and strength arguably more than enough for what the air corps does ie, 1 EAS machine daylight hours only, 1 inter hospital transfer helicopter by night, maritime patrol/top cover/air ambulance on a best effort basis, everything else training more or less. Problems with the maintenance on aircraft farmed out over a multitude of sub units, air corps CS4 still structured the same way it was in the 60's, any attempt to review it always fobbed off. What ever happened to the review that was meant to happen after the re-org of the army into two brigades?
                  AC CS4 was changed at the same time as rest of the PDF

                  I agree to a point why do you have (this is strength not establishment (which is 886 by the way):
                  14 Lt Cols - when max 5 are required as Wing/College OCs
                  31 Comdts - when Sqn wise there is no where near that amount of Sqns

                  Why 8 SMs & 4 BQs?
                  Why 54 CSs?

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                  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    AC CS4 was changed at the same time as rest of the PDF

                    I agree to a point why do you have (this is strength not establishment (which is 886 by the way):
                    14 Lt Cols - when max 5 are required as Wing/College OCs
                    31 Comdts - when Sqn wise there is no where near that amount of Sqns

                    Why 8 SMs & 4 BQs?
                    Why 54 CSs?
                    Because without seperation of rank and pay, it's the only way to keep technical specialist personnel renum earthed to an adequate level.

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                    • You could probably cut a lot of people from the AC if you moved to Shannon (or any civil airport) but it would involve:
                      - probably contracting out all flight and tech training
                      - being reliant on civvy ATC
                      - being reliant on civvy CRS
                      - probably contracting out 2nd and 3rd line maintenance
                      - being reliant on civvy airfield services (comms, fuel etc)

                      With the savings being invested in an increased number of flight crew to give a 24/7 capability for all aircraft

                      I think we would all like to see the AC capable of deploying aircraft overseas (if even just for CASEVAC) but with the above you have lost any possible organic capability of that (even if those guys aren't currently trained / equipped), if you don't have the guys you can't deploy them.

                      Say we sent 2 X AW139 to South Sudan for arguments sake to a green field Bn Gp base, they will need a lot of (expensive) civvy contractors to deploy with them, plus a lot of aircrew in order to give 24/7 cover.

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                      • Lol Dev.....in one breath you're saying AC next to impossible to move from Bal to Shannon....in the next breath they're off to South Sudan!!!
                        An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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                        • as has been pointed out on several of these threads, armies frequently deploy with civvy contractors and like the British army, are fed by civvies or like us, depend on civvy airlines for our airlift. You could easily move a Casa permanently to Shannon, without going the DF way and creating a monster (because the Don would have to have 40 people, vehicles, a big shed, a QM and all the other sundry odds and sods that Armies accumulate). It's only a small turboprop and you'll find that these creatures can be easily handled by average adults, as seen daily at airports everywhere. If the CG can operate a state of the art helicopter from a rubber hangar and a few prefabs, even the bloody Don can do it. The CG is full of ex-Donners and they, magically enough, managed to learn how to do it the civvy way and found that it's perfectly alright. So, if you wanted to send a Casa to Shannon (or anywhere else for that matter), you wouldn't have to disturb any vested interests although you'd be surprised how many Donners would bite your hand off for a chance to move to the West.

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                          • on another note, the apparent mass quantity of senior NCOs is because like all militaries, the senior tech grades are all Sergeants or Flight sergeants, who are not in nominal command of platoons or whatever the Army does with them. A flight Sergeant is typically the Boss of a Shop or hangar on the establishment of a unit and is the interface between the Officers and men. Some FS are inspectors of aircraft or other technical equipment, such as safety gear, avionics,etc....it is very top heavy compared to a civvy operation, but that';s how it's built.

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                            • Originally posted by X-RayOne View Post
                              Lol Dev.....in one breath you're saying AC next to impossible to move from Bal to Shannon....in the next breath they're off to South Sudan!!!
                              I've never said it is impossible, I said there was implications

                              No reason why not if suitable equipment and personnel are available

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                              • I don't know whether to post this under "Hovertanks" or not but there have been 2 V22 Ospreys and 2 Apaches circling my office in central London on and off all morning at about 2000 - 3000 feet. The V22 is magnificent - going low and slow with the ramp down. I recommend we turn Leitrim into one large fracking oil field and buy a few V22's !

                                It's the best free air show I've seen in years !!!
                                “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
                                ― Thucydides

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