Light Tactical Armoured Vehicle: Second attempt.

[DeV]

They couldn't as the AMLs were nearing end of life and some gravel agitator blew the budget allocated for a replacement on MOWAGS.( not a bad thing in hindsight.... but going back to the start MOWAG wasn't perfect either)

Without being able to diversify the Cavalry would have gone the way of the Dodo. The millions wasted on upgrading the AMLs with new engines and turrets and guns was just that...wasted. Even with the upgrades the performance and extras added by MOWAGs meant they were 20 years behind the curve.

So were were left with a corps with a task they couldn't couldn't provide the organic equipment for and some one had the brain wave of looking what was going on else where and decided...LTAV.. mine protected all singing and dancing.....but unproven and too small over weight, under powered, overpriced....but gucci looking on paper....hey presto.. give them to the cav and shut them up!!!

10 years earlier the Cav had looked at the VBL and said no... too small ...three man crew ..poor mans armoured car!......

But at this point the market focussed on Iraq and Afghanistan and what the Brits and Yanks were buying in things like Dingo , Mastiff etc... oh shit! we've just bought a shit load of MOWAGs, we can't be looking for big patrol vehicles..hey BAE have a mini one.... looks the part, well have some of that....

But its all ancient history and we've been discussing this for more than 10 years on this site alone.....

Don't go down the bespoke LTAV line... dare I say it remove the Corps from the equation and buy something simple that can be used by everyone ... but it must carry at least a 4 man compliment..plus crew. $ man vehicles inclusive of crew are too limited.

Dingo is a LTAV type vehicle, Masstif is a MPAV (APC)

From what I’ve heard all the LTAV type vehicles have common issues

Absolutely agree on the crew plus 4 man DE

But a similar vehicle is also required for the other roles

[ODIN]

The Infantry RECCE Plns wanted something similar to the Wings SRV's and if Cav had stayed in their lane and stuck to MOUNTED medium RECCE then they probably would have had a better chance of getting a platform more suited to that role.

Now we have the current LTAV the biggest garage queen in the DF fleet. Only brought overseas because of MOU's with the UN(and the associated payments) and they never leave the camp.Unless they have a week of pre maintenance.

I'm a fan of the SRV concept and think that it should be used in a wider way throughout the DF. We are coming to a stage with the Cav where a review of the role is going to be needed, not only the role but the sustainability of the Corps as a whole. At present, three squadrons, and I am guessing all are completely overworked and over tasked. As it stands, there aren't enough cavalry variant mowags for the squadrons, and operating out of a central vehicle pool is a bit ridiculous.

[REX]

perhaps the maintenance system needs looking at, if they are so shit that they need that level of attention?! manpower? spares supply? new blood not being trained up? poor crew training?

You could possibly lay-the blame on exactly those reasons if they had begun to deteriorate over a period of time, but these pieces of Sh1t have been breaking down since they got off the ship. From ridiculous faults, like the condensation from the Air-Con being piped directly onto the wiring for the automatic gearbox, to wiper linkages that are made of the cheapest plastics and metal possible. The cars have 4 batteries, which they burn out with astonishing regularity, and of course they are not just you normal everyday battery so the cost is significant every time they need replacing

[REX]

How the hell were they accepted in that condition and who is responsible?

It's the Army, so nobody is responsible, except perhaps the officer in DFTC who threatened to charge anyone who was heard to make disparaging remarks about the LTAVs. His promotion was being pushed on the basis of having completed the "successful" LTAV program

[apod]

They couldn't as the AMLs were nearing end of life and some gravel agitator blew the budget allocated for a replacement on MOWAGS.( not a bad thing in hindsight.... but going back to the start MOWAG wasn't perfect either)

All about priorities.What was needed more?A few cars for a select few or more cars that could be used by more and for more taskings.The mainstay of our overseas deployments has been the ability to move troops under armour from point A to point B.That's our bread and butter.Armoured Recce is secondary. Painful but true.

Without being able to diversify the Cavalry would have gone the way of the Dodo.

That is a really ridiculous justification for taking on a tasking that the Corps was never intended or suited to carrying out.What's next Engineers becoming medics to "diversify"??

The Cav should have bit the Bullet and wadied the 1 ACS Garage queen Scorpions back in the early '90's and then diverted funds into something more worthwhile along with reviewing its overall role.Instead Corps politics won out and the Cav took on Infantry taskings.Thus the case for SRV type vehicles for the Recce platoons,which by the late '90's had been well made,was wadied in favour of finding money to equip the Cav with vehicles they didn't want IOT justify their existence.
Sad to say to this day the same BS is still going on.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Well, if the Cav is the traditional "teeth" arm, by virtue of operating armour, ie gun tanks, what do you do with them when you take away their gun tanks and don't buy a replacement? You give them big eight wheelers that are too big for recce and have a tiny gun or you give them one with a 30mm, still not a big gun and then you attempt to figure out what to do with them, while your manpower is draining away to civvy street because they are bored to death , can't get promoted and can't earn competitive pay. Quite frankly, I don't envy anyone the job of running the Cav.................as for post-use maintenance, I suggest the vehicle be met by a mech as it comes back in and get it's daily inspection, like an aircraft does, before it gets parked for the night. He gets the snag list from the vehicle commander or driver and deals with it. If the roster needs to be changed to get evening or night work done, then that has to happen....If there are fundamental problems with the vehicle, such as the stupid AC pipe, then someone needs to grip the agent for the vehicles and make sure they get the message about shit assembly.It wouldn't be tolerated in aviation, why should the DF tolerate it on expensive vehicles

[hptmurphy]

D

ingo is a LTAV type vehicle, Masstif is a MPAV (APC)

I'm highlighting the trends in the market at the time and where concepts were at!

[hptmurphy]

All about priorities.What was needed more?A few cars for a select few or more cars that could be used by more and for more taskings.The mainstay of our overseas deployments has been the ability to move troops under armour from point A to point B.That's our bread and butter.Armoured Recce is secondary. Painful but true.


That is a really ridiculous justification for taking on a tasking that the Corps was never intended or suited to carrying out.What's next Engineers becoming medics to "diversify"??

The Cav should have bit the Bullet and wadied the 1 ACS Garage queen Scorpions back in the early '90's and then diverted funds into something more worthwhile along with reviewing its overall role.Instead Corps politics won out and the Cav took on Infantry taskings.Thus the case for SRV type vehicles for the Recce platoons,which by the late '90's had been well made,was wadied in favour of finding money to equip the Cav with vehicles they didn't want IOT justify their existence.
Sad to say to this day the same BS is still going on.

I don't disagree with a word you say. It really did become a case of the 'tail wagging the dog'

[REX]

.as for post-use maintenance, I suggest the vehicle be met by a mech as it comes back in and get it's daily inspection, like an aircraft does, before it gets parked for the night. He gets the snag list from the vehicle commander or driver and deals with it. If the roster needs to be changed to get evening or night work done, then that has to happen.

I love that you think parts are available when they're needed, we bought rubbish that no one else would touch and there isn't a massive parts stockpile outside everyday items. There are a number of parts that if required must be ordered from South Africa, and a lead time of 60 days was "good", nevermind anything that needed to be specially manufactured

As for rosters needing to change, where are you getting all these mechanics from? I retired last september, and 2 others left the same workshops since then, with 3 more either putting in for discharge, or transfer to another branch of the DF within the next 2 months. Number of replacements available Zero. I believe a TT scheme is beginning but thats a 4 year lead in just to qualify, never mind get some experience under their belt.

If they want to keep Techs they need to start paying properly, especially when the jobs outside also pay extra for the out of hours work that you would have DF mechanics do on completion of LTAV Ops

[apod]

GttC has proposed a great system but Rex is right you need the people to make it work.

[GoneToTheCanner]

@rex, I completely understand the manpower issue; the airline I work has lost 32 skilled people from maintenance, engineering and planning in the last year that I know of and we have had seven replacements and we can't get people because our pay scales are so low that qualified people won't join. We have gone from being the premier airline in the airport to being the last...... I don't want men to be kept back to work late for nothing, either. Neither does the Air Corps, which is why they went over to shifts a few years ago. That's a whole DF issue, besides. As for parts, well, the only thing you can do is to put pressure on the suppliers to reduce lead time and keep shouting at them upstairs, that if they want a 24/7/365 availability, they will have to wake up and get real. A lot of what has happened the LTAVs has been already done by the Air Corps; buy unique shit and then wonder why it fails to deliver and try to keep it running with inadequate manpower, shit spares supply, grossly bad training,etc,etc. I'm completely on your side.

regards
GttC

[pym]

Is it known from the EUBG exercises what the Swedish experience has been with their RG32M? They operate hundreds of them, but of a different type.

[REX]

GttC, if we would stump up the cash, they would supply the parts. The simple fact is, as the Deputy Director of Transport said a couple of years ago to us in Athlone, unless it's a ship there's no money for it. for about 6 months in 2016 we had a situation where even some of the most basic parts were not allowed be held at unit level. I was ordering clutches for Pajeros but having to wait 3 weeks for them because they weren't even available in LVBWS. The Transport budget has been savaged to pay for ships, so the moral of the story is it's good to have an Admiral as COS, as long as you're in the navy. It went from 2 new ships to 3, and now another Multi-roll ship is to be added to the fleet. They must be planning on increasing the At Sea allowance because at the current rates they're struggling to man the ships they have!

[GoneToTheCanner]

Is there an icon for frustrated head shake? they want a first-class military, to be viable on the European stage, but won't pay for spares so the fleet looks like a third-world Army. Pajero spares are as common as dirt. Any Army that can't even keep an SUV rolling needs a foot up the arse. I think the notion that it's the Navy's fault is being used as an excuse by SOs because they can't or won't shake the tree....not holding basic spares at unit level is a joke. Airlines keep the most commonly used spares as close to the Line as possible. Our satellite store, full of consumables, is fifty feet from the nearest stand and we can have pretty much anything we need for a grounded aircraft inside 24 hours.

[Sparky42]

Think blaming the Navy might be taking the p!ss a bit, the only "unplanned" buy is the fourth P60, the contract always included the option for the third hull in it from signing and the MRV date was always predictable due to the service life of Eithne.