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  1. #26
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I think you can forget about any panhard related products..army tied them selves up in knots with Panhard contracts for 30 years..they won't go down that road again..any VBL was tested 15 years ago..two small it was intended to replace the AML in the recce role.The cavs comitment to CTR has turned the requirement on its head..so bigger vehicle that VBL type needed.

    on similar note...loks like our new general service vehicle and FFRs will be a land Rover product..so the word on the street is.
    Time for another break I think......

  2. #27
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Come-quickly View Post

    Finally and mostly it is wanted for patrolling through potentially unsafe areas while on operations where a PIII is a bit on the big side and not really great for giving all round visibility in a hurry.
    This is where the four doors with openable windows is really rather a must.

    And thus effectively reducing your ARMOURED LTAV into another Nissan. Thats what A/C is for. Visibility is the ability to see, which you can do through windows, you dont need to roll them down and put your arm out the side!!

    Below I've posted a template for people to use if suggesting a vehicle for consideration. I hope it will provide the clearest way of establishing the best units quickly and efficiently
    Last edited by ZULU; 19th April 2007 at 12:27.

  3. #28
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Insert Vehicle name here

    [Insert Pictures Here - Preferrably Black and white tech drawing showing dimensions and one colour photo of it in use]


    [Vehicle Name here] ------------------ UNIT Price in Euro:

    [Vehicle Manufacturer here]

    Contract Requirements ------------- Yes / No --------Details

    Armament
    (min 7.62mm)

    Armour
    (7.62AP Protect min)
    (Add on Capable)

    CBRN Protect/Detect

    Range
    (250offR / 450onR)

    Passengers
    (4min)

    Payload
    (1m³ min) (150kg)

    Tow Weight
    (3.5Ton)

    NATO Std Equip
    (Tow hitch / Electrical Req)

    Communications capable

    Day/Night Sensor suite

  4. #29
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    "Visibility is the ability to see, which you can do through windows, you dont need to roll them down and put your arm out the side!!"

    ha..ha...ha...ha.ha....brilliant. i love it. don't forget being able to see through the cool sun glasses too!!!
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutter nutter View Post
    Too small for my money..
    We had that on trail in the late 90's..so I doubt its in the running..

  6. #31
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    And thus effectively reducing your ARMOURED LTAV into another Nissan. Thats what A/C is for. Visibility is the ability to see, which you can do through windows, you dont need to roll them down and put your arm out the side!!

    Below I've posted a template for people to use if suggesting a vehicle for consideration. I hope it will provide the clearest way of establishing the best units quickly and efficiently
    Yes an armoured Nissan with armoured windows which can be rolled down when required, the idea of openable windows is that you can reach out and touch the natives, have objects passed out or in, stick your head out for a look around and so on.

    Piranha's also have airconditioning and visual aids to let you steer it while under armour this does not mean that the crew don't need to turn out sometimes.

    It is a matter of practicality and convenience.

    And exactly who are posting vehicles for the consideration of? Do you have a lot more sway with the procurement boards than you have been leading us to assume?
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  7. #32
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Come-quickly View Post
    Yes an armoured Nissan with armoured windows which can be rolled down when required, the idea of openable windows is that you can reach out and touch the natives, have objects passed out or in, stick your head out for a look around and so on.
    As far as I can recall, there was a trip to Eritrea that got a couple of DF personnel in trouble because of them wanting to "Touch the natives"

    Objects to be passed in = Bullets, at high velocity. Grenades, CB threats such as Gas, Blood.

    Sticking your head out for a look = getting it chopped or shot off. Thats what a RWS is for.

    Doors can be used in your shopping trip role as well you know

    You really haven't thought this one through have you?

    Piranha's also have airconditioning and visual aids to let you steer it while under armour this does not mean that the crew don't need to turn out sometimes.
    Yes - Thats what turrets and RWS are for.

    It is a matter of practicality and convenience.
    Practical being a CBRN hermetic seal is easier around the door frame rather than around the door and window. If you had experience of pressure vessel design you would see that you need a certain gasket pressure through use of a bolt circle to effectively seal an appature.

    And exactly who are posting vehicles for the consideration of? Do you have a lot more sway with the procurement boards than you have been leading us to assume?
    I have no sway with any of the DF procurment boards.

  8. #33
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Panhard VBR




    Panhard VBR ------------------ UNIT Price in Euro: Unknown

    Panhard

    Contract Requirements ------------- Yes / No --------Details

    Armament
    (min 7.62mm) ------------------ YES ------------- 7.62 GPMG, 0,50cal MG, ATM's, 40mm AGL

    Armour ------------------- YES -------------- Protection Level 2 STANAG 4569, optional Levels 3 and 4 Mines protection level 2B
    Add on Armour capability unknownbut large engine should be able to cope
    (7.62AP Protect min)
    (Add on Capable)

    CBRN Protect/Detect ------------- YES------------NC filtration system, Amphib

    Range ------------------------------YES------------- over 800Km onR
    (250offR / 450onR)

    Passengers -----------------------YES------------- Able to accomodate 8 full kit troops + 1 driver
    (4min)

    Payload---------------------------YES -------------- 2400kg total (passengers included)
    (1m³ min) (150kg)

    Tow Weight ----------------------YES---------------218hp with 1300Nm @ 1200rpm
    (3.5Ton)

    NATO Std Equip -----------------Unknown---------
    (Tow hitch / Electrical Req)

    Communications capable--------Unknown-----------

    Day/Night Sensor suite--------YES--------- RWS with IR/LI equip

  9. #34
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    MOWAG Eagle IV



    Eagle IV------------------ UNIT Price in Euro: Denmark paid 330,000 extras included

    MOWAG

    Contract Requirements ------------- Yes / No --------Details

    Armament -----------------------YES--------------RWS with 7.62mm, 0.50cal, AGL Customer specific C4ISTAR-, Weapon- and other systems
    (min 7.62mm)

    Armour ---------------------------YES--------------STANAG 4569Ballistic: level 2 Mine: level 2a System add-on armour to level 3 a+b

    (7.62AP Protect min)
    (Add on Capable)

    CBRN Protect/Detect--------YES--------NBC overpressure system

    Range ---------------------------YES----------650km OnR
    (250offR / 450onR)

    Passengers ------------------YES------------- 4 passengers
    (4min)

    Payload ---------------------YES---------------2200kg at level 2a protection Customer specific roof and cargo module configuration
    (1m³ min) (150kg)

    Tow Weight ----------------YES---------------245hp 750Nm
    (3.5Ton)

    NATO Std Equip -------------YES-------------Tow hitch and Batt Elec etc
    (Tow hitch / Electrical Req)

    Communications capable----YES-----------SINGR Capable

    Day/Night Sensor suite[/QUOTE]------YES------Through RWS Equip

  10. #35
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    vehicle pictures

    Big collection of 'urban patrol vehicles' pictures - including many under discussion here - at http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ad.php?t=70508

  11. #36
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    As far as I can recall, there was a trip to Eritrea that got a couple of DF personnel in trouble because of them wanting to "Touch the natives"

    Objects to be passed in = Bullets, at high velocity. Grenades, CB threats such as Gas, Blood.

    Sticking your head out for a look = getting it chopped or shot off. Thats what a RWS is for.

    Doors can be used in your shopping trip role as well you know

    You really haven't thought this one through have you?



    Yes - Thats what turrets and RWS are for.



    Practical being a CBRN hermetic seal is easier around the door frame rather than around the door and window. If you had experience of pressure vessel design you would see that you need a certain gasket pressure through use of a bolt circle to effectively seal an appature.



    I have no sway with any of the DF procurment boards.
    Your first point is irrelevant.

    You seem to think that troops on operations spend their whole time being shot at which even in relatively hot areas like afghan is not the case.

    Your smug and superior replies belie a distinct lack of realism in your thinking.

    I would concede that I have no technical knowledge of pressure sealing but I doubt that the Army is going to compromise day to day operational utility in pursuit of a higher level. Similiarly it seems highly unlikely that these vehicles will feature any sort of overpressure system as standard.

    RWS are a means of coping when you are underfire, not a replacement for windows.

    Again this is not a fighting vehicle, it is a Utility vehicle with some built in armour protection and the ability to return fire from under protection if neccesary.
    Last edited by Come-quickly; 19th April 2007 at 17:43.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  12. #37
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Would CIT operations be a consideration in the selection of these vehicles?
    Or would we be sticking with the existing setup at the moment (namely 4 WD's)?

    Murph, heard a couple of months that a Land Rover vehicle (type unknown to my source) was being trialled.

    Can someone enlighten me why we went from Land Rover to Nissan in the 90's?
    Cost? Reliability? All of the above?

    I didn't hold an AF154 at that point, so such things didn't bother me.

    And if this was the reason why we changed in the first instance, is it that Land Rover have gotten their act together and produced a superior product?

    [Mod: See seperate thread for discussion about the possible return of Land Rovers]
    Last edited by Barry; 19th April 2007 at 19:18.

  13. #38
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Come-quickly View Post
    You seem to think that troops on operations spend their whole time being shot at which even in relatively hot areas like afghan is not the case.
    What does a hot area got to do with the amount of times being shot at? These vehicles are (Building up the smug and sarcastic attitude) Light TACTICAL ASSAULT VEHICLES

    Tactical = Method for attaining a specific goal
    Assault = A military attack on an objective

    Your smug and superior replies belie a distinct lack of realism in your thinking.
    My lack of realistic thinking is only the same thinking as almost every other Armed forces engaged in tactical assault missions AND peacekeeping/enforcing

    Those armed forces are armouring their "show the love to the locals" vehicles due to the asymmetric warfare now being faced.

    I would concede that I have no technical knowledge of pressure sealing but I doubt that the Army is going to compromise day to day operational utility in pursuit of a higher level. Similiarly it seems highly unlikely that these vehicles will feature any sort of overpressure system as standard.
    Thats not the only type of knowledge your lacking. The DF requirements specifically state a CBRN protect and detect ability. This is most easily achieved by an over-pressure system, but this needs power to perform. Fail safes such as one way valves and seals are the other way.

    These are not utility vehicles. They are LTAVs. They have a definite role. Recon, assault, CSS (Eng), Convoy protection.

    RWS are a means of coping when you are underfire, not a replacement for windows.
    Are you actually saying that a RWS mounted on an elevated position with IR/LI capabilities is no match for "sticking your head out the window and having a gander" ?

    Again this is not a fighting vehicle, it is a Utility vehicle with some built in armour protection and the ability to return fire from under protection if neccesary.
    This is where you should stop, read up on the DF contract specifications and the global trend for armoured vehicles.

    IMO - You should stop trying to compare a Nissan that you drive to the range in and a LTAV that is used in a Recon/CSS/Assault role.
    Last edited by ZULU; 19th April 2007 at 20:33.

  14. #39
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    What does a hot area got to do with the amount of times being shot at? These vehicles are (Building up the smug and sarcastic attitude) Light TACTICAL ASSAULT VEHICLES

    Tactical = Method for attaining a specific goal
    Assault = A military attack on an objective
    Don't mean to be picky ZULU, but I think it's Light Tactical Armoured Vehicle
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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  15. #40
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    :wink: My bad - Just my thinking on the vehicles intended role. If you need to be armoured your going to be shot at, and hence return fire. (Out your armoured roll down window, wearing sunglasses and smoking a cigarette )

    Of course you can't use the word Assault in your contract - the Greens and Crusties would have a field day
    Last edited by ZULU; 19th April 2007 at 20:36.

  16. #41
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    :wink: My bad - Just my thinking on the vehicles intended role. If you need to be armoured your going to be shot at, and hence return fire. (Out your armoured roll down window, wearing sunglasses and smoking a cigarette )

    Of course you can't use the word Assault in your contract - the Greens and Crusties would have a field day
    Cool is good....and screw the crusties, run them over with the nice new LTAV and smother the Greenies with the exhaust

    BTW, another new vehicle that might be in the running, the Renault Sherpa 3
    http://www.renault-trucks-defense.co...0.html?lang=en
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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  17. #42
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    No hotlinking allowed I think.
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

    Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

  18. #43
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    ">
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

    Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

  19. #44
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutter nutter View Post
    Cool is good....and screw the crusties, run them over with the nice new LTAV and smother the Greenies with the exhaust
    I'll have you know the MOWAG Eagle IV is EURO 4 emissions compliant!!!

  20. #45
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    I'll have you know the MOWAG Eagle IV is EURO 4 emissions compliant!!!
    They could test the RWS on them......just sayin.
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

    Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

  21. #46
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    What does a hot area got to do with the amount of times being shot at? These vehicles are (Building up the smug and sarcastic attitude) Light TACTICAL ASSAULT VEHICLES

    Tactical = Method for attaining a specific goal
    Assault = A military attack on an objective



    My lack of realistic thinking is only the same thinking as almost every other Armed forces engaged in tactical assault missions AND peacekeeping/enforcing

    Those armed forces are armouring their "show the love to the locals" vehicles due to the asymmetric warfare now being faced.



    Thats not the only type of knowledge your lacking. The DF requirements specifically state a CBRN protect and detect ability. This is most easily achieved by an over-pressure system, but this needs power to perform. Fail safes such as one way valves and seals are the other way.

    These are not utility vehicles. They are LTAVs. They have a definite role. Recon, assault, CSS (Eng), Convoy protection.



    Are you actually saying that a RWS mounted on an elevated position with IR/LI capabilities is no match for "sticking your head out the window and having a gander" ?



    This is where you should stop, read up on the DF contract specifications and the global trend for armoured vehicles.

    IMO - You should stop trying to compare a Nissan that you drive to the range in and a LTAV that is used in a Recon/CSS/Assault role.
    You are going by the spec + your imagination.

    Try reversing around a corner with RWS.

    The vehicle has no assault role. Its intended role in the Defence forces has been fully specified for at least three years
    The capability to be fitted with CBRN kit is not the same as every vehicle having it.

    So far you have been more condescending and shown a slighter grasp of what is required on each post.

    I suggest you stop taking things personally and stop making presumptive posts in a public forum. If I hadn't once been in the habit of making such empty headed posts myself I would be offended.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  22. #47
    BQMS spider pig's Avatar
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    Would the DF be looking for something that could mount a javelin or something of the kind to be fitted on?
    Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

  23. #48
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Probably not. Anti Armour weapons on a vehicle become a target once you get off the first shot. Even the AML 90 had a survivability rating of 2 shots. One shot would annoy the tank you fired on, the second may stop him, if your lucky, maybe even kill him, but tanks rarely travel alone.... so the hunter becomes the hunted. Better off keeping the RWS for firing at armed troops and soft skinned vehicles..

  24. #49
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Come-quickly View Post

    The vehicle has no assault role. Its intended role in the Defence forces has been fully specified for at least three years
    The capability to be fitted with CBRN kit is not the same as every vehicle having it.
    Minister for Defence (Mr. M. Smith):
    The Defence Forces commenced a programme to acquire Mowag AP-light armoured vehicles in 1999. To date 40 of these vehicles have been received and a further 25 vehicles are scheduled for delivery in 2004. The total cost of the programme is in the region of €84 million.
    In addition to this programme, the Defence Forces has a requirement for a smaller light armoured vehicle, designated as a light tactical vehicle which can be used to protect troops engaged in peace support operations in areas where the larger Mowag APC would be inappropriate. For instance, the movement of one to three personnel in high risk confined areas and general surveillance work are among the key roles of the vehicle. Funding for this programme must be considered in the context of the larger APC programme and the changed financial situation and it has been agreed with the military authorities that the programme for the acquisition of the vehicles will not proceed for the present. In the meantime, the Defence Forces will continue to conduct further studies in relation to the type and specification of vehicle required

    Tuesday, 4 November 2003
    Try reversing around a corner with RWS.
    Are we not able to reverse without sticking our heads out windows? I think you'll find mirrors and a rear camera will allow people to drive backwards just fine.

  25. #50
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    RWS+Javelin

    Quote Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
    Would the DF be looking for something that could mount a javelin or something of the kind to be fitted on?
    There's a version of the Kongsberg Protector RWS fitted to some of the Piranhas that can include a Javelin:

    Last edited by thebig C; 8th August 2007 at 10:05.

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