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  1. #51
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Just one javelin? What happens after you fire your missile? Draw straws to see who gets out to reload?

  2. #52
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    In light of the experience with IED's, mines, .50 cal rounds etc etc to cut through such vehicles like butter can it be asked what exactly the point of these cars is? I mean I understand that a Mowag etc is alot harder to move around, maintain & costs more but in narrow pure force protection terms should it be the case that if theres any risk of a threat in the area, take the Mowag & if its safe take the FFR? I mean, why not spend the money on more Mowags instead. It just seems that these days people are looking at these cars like they offer significant armoured protection, when basically it's being proven from all the kills in Iraq & elsewhere that they're pretty pointless when compared squarely with the protection taking an APC offers...If it's a light recce system then use the new Mowags or the chasis the Danger boys use...Aren't these vehicles realistically just a jack of all trades and good at nothing?

  3. #53
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Perhaps we are limiting our choices to the same machines that were unsuccessful the first time round? Perhaps a larger machine, with a smaller capacity to the mowag, such as the Dingo or RG31

  4. #54
    zzzzing! CS Gass's Avatar
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    same argument could be extended to apc's when theres kids with rpg's in town, i think they serve the purpose of providing cover for the rare time someone does throw some rounds at you. Given our role in many overseas missions, if its that hot that there are 50cal rounds and larger flying around we probably wouldnt go in to town to say hi to the locals with an apc either. These things are ideal for when are area is fairly stable but its still adviseable to be on the safe side and have some protection from small arms instead of a scenario where someone gets pissed off and riddles an ffr with ak rounds thus catching us with our dpm's around our ankles

  5. #55
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    self-defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Just one javelin? What happens after you fire your missile? Draw straws to see who gets out to reload?
    Well, it's a lot better than nothing if there are tanks in the vicinity. One Javelin hit should be enough to disable or kill a tank. And I would hope that LTAVs in a combat zone would operate in sections of two or three cars at least.

  6. #56
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    One relevant point about openable windows - is that it does greatly reduce the ballistic performance as the glass can flex.

    An alternative is to have armoured slots in the doors.

    Zulu, why are you highlighting that section? It says nothing that conflicts with what I have been saying.

    As for reversing by cameras alone, fine but the cameras will still have limited range of movement and therefore will not always do the job.

    At this point perhaps you should stop trying to cockbash me and move on.
    Last edited by Come-quickly; 20th April 2007 at 00:10.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  7. #57
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    Maybe you both should move on or open your own thread to debate who knows more, I don't think anyone else here cares....
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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  8. #58
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carrington View Post
    Well, it's a lot better than nothing if there are tanks in the vicinity. One Javelin hit should be enough to disable or kill a tank. And I would hope that LTAVs in a combat zone would operate in sections of two or three cars at least.
    I doubt very much they'll be using the Javellin in an RWS, it's more flexible to carry the team in the LTAV & let them dismount to use it.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  9. #59
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    If we were to expand our defintion of what a LTAV could be, it could be a Bushmaster like the Dutch said, their selection process went down to 2 vehicles, the Bushmaster and the Iveco MLV, or maybe even the British Mastiff or it's smaller 4x4 version, it's a pretty wide selection of vehicles now to choose from, the DF might pick something completly unexpected that we would never think of here.
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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  10. #60
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Come-quickly

    Why are you such an advocate in windows that can roll down if you know this reduces their ballistic performance?

    I was highlighting the fact that they are to be seen to be used in high risk confined areas much like those now being faced by armed forces who are now looking at evolving their vehicles

    Your reversing around corners without windows is a non issue. Most of the vehicles presented offer more than enough visibility all round + mirrors + Elevated camera on RWS.

    Mutter-Nutter

    The Dutch also use Fenniks

  11. #61
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    The Dutch also use Fenniks
    Indeed they do,but the Fennek is for a different mission, the Bushmaster is basically an armoured taxi, which is the basic requirement for the LTAV...but it's probably on the upper size of things for the contract.
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  12. #62
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    Come-quickly

    Why are you such an advocate in windows that can roll down if you know this reduces their ballistic performance?

    I was highlighting the fact that they are to be seen to be used in high risk confined areas much like those now being faced by armed forces who are now looking at evolving their vehicles

    Your reversing around corners without windows is a non issue. Most of the vehicles presented offer more than enough visibility all round + mirrors + Elevated camera on RWS.

    Mutter-Nutter

    The Dutch also use Fenniks
    Because it was a request made by many early users of the Eagle and Dingo series of vehicles, I did however subsequently consult a proffessional (admittedly a tankie not a user of this type of vehicle) who advised that rolling windows would be a serious compromise of the armour protection.

    I also consulted them on the matter of reversing cameras etc.

    You might try asking people in the know some time.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  13. #63
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    different categories?

    Quote Originally Posted by mutter nutter View Post
    If we were to expand our defintion of what a LTAV could be, it could be a Bushmaster like the Dutch said, their selection process went down to 2 vehicles, the Bushmaster and the Iveco MLV, or maybe even the British Mastiff or it's smaller 4x4 version, it's a pretty wide selection of vehicles now to choose from, the DF might pick something completly unexpected that we would never think of here...

    ...Indeed they do,but the Fennek is for a different mission, the Bushmaster is basically an armoured taxi, which is the basic requirement for the LTAV...but it's probably on the upper size of things for the contract.
    There's nothing light about the British Mastiff!

    Could the Fennek not do the reconnaissance, surveillance, targeting mission very well - that's what it was primarily designed for - and many others too? "In December 2001, a contract was signed for the combined procurement of 612 Fennek vehicles: 202 reconnaissance, 130 MRAT (medium range antitank) and 78 general purpose versions for the Royal Netherlands Army; 178 reconnaissance, 24 combat engineer and four artillery observer versions for the German Army." (www.army-technology.com/projects/fennek/)

    This discussion to my mind highlights the difficulties of selecting an LTAV. There is (a) the wide spectrum of possible roles/tasks; (b) the proliferation of possible vehicles: there are dozens on the market now; and (c) the fundamental question of whether the LTAV is to be an armoured transport/utility vehicle, or a fighting vehicle. (Although it is said in Iraq that every utility vehicle has to be a tactical vehicle, so maybe the distinction is disappearing.)

    Maybe the discussion would be helped if the vehicles could be grouped into different categories, e.g. defined by weight limits? Or crew/passenger numbers? Or cost?.....
    Last edited by thebig C; 20th April 2007 at 10:33.

  14. #64
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Come-quickly View Post
    Because it was a request made by many early users of the Eagle and Dingo series of vehicles, I did however subsequently consult a proffessional (admittedly a tankie not a user of this type of vehicle) who advised that rolling windows would be a serious compromise of the armour protection.

    I also consulted them on the matter of reversing cameras etc.

    You might try asking people in the know some time.

    Denmark were users of the MOWAG Eagle I and II nad decided on 85 Eagle IV's for their replacement. Notice the windows on the door. Bolted all round.




    I think you should take some of your own advice about consulting people in the know.

    admittedly a tankie not a user of this type of vehicle
    Hugs and Kisses if your feeling "cock bashed"

  15. #65
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    Denmark were users of the MOWAG Eagle I and II nad decided on 85 Eagle IV's for their replacement. Notice the windows on the door. Bolted all round.
    I suppose, if you want to meet & greet, you can always open the door....

  16. #66
    Closed Account ZULU's Avatar
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    Here is the STANAG 4569 standard that the LTAV's are likely to have to follow. Probably Level II or III+

    http://www.generalarmour.com/pagesGA...htm#stanag4569

    On a further note. STANAG 4569 Level II Ballistic Glass is usually in the region of 50-65 mm thick.

    Even IF you wanted to roll down these, you would need room in the Armoured door (90-100mm thick) for linkages, gears, motors etc. Not to mention you lose the performance of a seal
    Last edited by ZULU; 20th April 2007 at 11:14.

  17. #67
    BQMS spider pig's Avatar
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    Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

  18. #68
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carrington View Post
    There's nothing light about the British Mastiff!

    The Mastiff is a big boy yes, although the 4x4 varient is a lot smaller, I'm just putting out there 2 ends of the spectrum on how big an LTAV can go

    Could the Fennek not do the reconnaissance, surveillance, targeting mission very well - that's what it was primarily designed for - and many others too? "In December 2001, a contract was signed for the combined procurement of 612 Fennek vehicles: 202 reconnaissance, 130 MRAT (medium range antitank) and 78 general purpose versions for the Royal Netherlands Army; 178 reconnaissance, 24 combat engineer and four artillery observer versions for the German Army." (www.army-technology.com/projects/fennek/)
    Yes the Fennek has been bought for different missions, but, the Germans have also bought the Dingo I&II, the Mungo and maybe buying the Iveco MLV, all of those could be classed as LTAVs, and in Irelands case, we can't buy 3 or 4 different classes of vehile to fill the requirement, we have to pick one and make it work
    This discussion to my mind highlights the difficulties of selecting an LTAV. There is (a) the wide spectrum of possible roles/tasks; (b) the proliferation of possible vehicles: there are dozens on the market now; and (c) the fundamental question of whether the LTAV is to be an armoured transport/utility vehicle, or a fighting vehicle. (Although it is said in Iraq that every utility vehicle has to be a tactical vehicle, so maybe the distinction is disappearing.)

    Well in Iraq the US has had to armour virtually every vehicle they have thats goes outside a base, from trucks and plant, to humvees, my view on what we need here is a purpose built vehicle Eagle IV or what ever, not some bolt on kit to an unarmoured HUMVEE type vehicle, if it cost's more, so be it, even in relativly benign UN missions it's getting more and more dangerous, never mind the more robust operations the EUBG's might take on

    Maybe the discussion would be helped if the vehicles could be grouped into different categories, e.g. defined by weight limits? Or crew/passenger numbers? Or cost?.....
    Agreed, maybe on size/weight we could break them down
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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  19. #69
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    cool, but a while away yet, decade at least
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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  20. #70
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    Couger 4x4, big boy, but maybe on pure armour might be in contention


    RG-31 after a mine strike


    RG-32m
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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  21. #71
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    i seem to remember something like the RG-32m on trial in the leb when i was over there once.

    story went it was rejected by irish because centre of gravity too high from normal use.

    the fijians, or some other contingent, loved them though. ring a bell with anybody?
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

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  22. #72
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    Just an example of what hapenes to a lightly armoured civilian 4x4 (Toyota land cruiser) Swedish got hit Yesterday in Afghanistan, 1 injured
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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  23. #73
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    Denmark were users of the MOWAG Eagle I and II nad decided on 85 Eagle IV's for their replacement. Notice the windows on the door. Bolted all round.

    [p://www.armyrecognition.com/europe/Angleterre/Exhibition/DSEI_2005/pictures/Eagle_IV_DSEI_2005_ArmyRecognition_01.jpg[/IMG]


    I think you should take some of your own advice about consulting people in the know.



    Hugs and Kisses if your feeling "cock bashed"
    You may have noticed that I recognised that fact a post ago.

    In all your gloating you seem to have neatly brushed over the fact that you completely misjudged the roles of these vehicles And indeed had been working from an incorrect interpretation of the acronym.

    Perhaps you should learn that this is a discussion not an ALP competition. I have brought some knowledge and some opinion, in places where my opinions were questioned, I sought more knowledgable opinions and accepted them where appropriate. Perhaps you could try something similar.

    Docman, openable hatches on doors mean being able to get things in and out without having to open the whole door. The reaching out and touching the natives line comes from German Dingo patrols in the balkans who complained that they had to get out of the vehicle or completely

    The Danish eagles deployed to Afghan with the first two "Recon" battalions had to have their turrets stripped as they made the vehicles dangerously top heavy and paid too high a price in awareness for the protection they offered.
    This is reminiscent of some AFV crews in the American Phase of the Vietnam war who chose to remove ballistic plates from pintle mounted weapons in order to increase their FOFs.

    You will also note that the Eagle IV does indeed feature four doors and a boot. The question of hatch windows comes down to the variant and buyer preference.
    I have been firmly corrected by non walts that the roll down armoured window is strictly for rappers.

    Mutter's post above is a fine example of what Ltavs are for, protection from unexpected threats while carrying out non teeth roles.
    Last edited by Come-quickly; 20th April 2007 at 20:10.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  24. #74
    MIA mugs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutter nutter View Post

    Couger 4x4, big boy, but maybe on pure armour might be in contention
    To me that looks of similar size to the piranhas

  25. #75
    "Nice ass, Samson..." mutter nutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mugs View Post
    To me that looks of similar size to the piranhas
    You ever been right up beside a Piranha?...lot bigger then that , but as I said, the Couger is on the very upperscale of size that could be a LTAV
    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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