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Light Tactical Armoured Vehicle: Second attempt.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by ZULU View Post
    And thus effectively reducing your ARMOURED LTAV into another Nissan. Thats what A/C is for. Visibility is the ability to see, which you can do through windows, you dont need to roll them down and put your arm out the side!!

    Below I've posted a template for people to use if suggesting a vehicle for consideration. I hope it will provide the clearest way of establishing the best units quickly and efficiently
    Yes an armoured Nissan with armoured windows which can be rolled down when required, the idea of openable windows is that you can reach out and touch the natives, have objects passed out or in, stick your head out for a look around and so on.

    Piranha's also have airconditioning and visual aids to let you steer it while under armour this does not mean that the crew don't need to turn out sometimes.

    It is a matter of practicality and convenience.

    And exactly who are posting vehicles for the consideration of? Do you have a lot more sway with the procurement boards than you have been leading us to assume?
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Come-quickly View Post
      Yes an armoured Nissan with armoured windows which can be rolled down when required, the idea of openable windows is that you can reach out and touch the natives, have objects passed out or in, stick your head out for a look around and so on.
      As far as I can recall, there was a trip to Eritrea that got a couple of DF personnel in trouble because of them wanting to "Touch the natives"

      Objects to be passed in = Bullets, at high velocity. Grenades, CB threats such as Gas, Blood.

      Sticking your head out for a look = getting it chopped or shot off. Thats what a RWS is for.

      Doors can be used in your shopping trip role as well you know

      You really haven't thought this one through have you?

      Piranha's also have airconditioning and visual aids to let you steer it while under armour this does not mean that the crew don't need to turn out sometimes.
      Yes - Thats what turrets and RWS are for.

      It is a matter of practicality and convenience.
      Practical being a CBRN hermetic seal is easier around the door frame rather than around the door and window. If you had experience of pressure vessel design you would see that you need a certain gasket pressure through use of a bolt circle to effectively seal an appature.

      And exactly who are posting vehicles for the consideration of? Do you have a lot more sway with the procurement boards than you have been leading us to assume?
      I have no sway with any of the DF procurment boards.
      "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

      Comment


      • #33
        Panhard VBR




        Panhard VBR ------------------ UNIT Price in Euro: Unknown

        Panhard

        Contract Requirements ------------- Yes / No --------Details

        Armament
        (min 7.62mm) ------------------ YES ------------- 7.62 GPMG, 0,50cal MG, ATM's, 40mm AGL

        Armour ------------------- YES -------------- Protection Level 2 STANAG 4569, optional Levels 3 and 4 Mines protection level 2B
        Add on Armour capability unknownbut large engine should be able to cope
        (7.62AP Protect min)
        (Add on Capable)

        CBRN Protect/Detect ------------- YES------------NC filtration system, Amphib

        Range ------------------------------YES------------- over 800Km onR
        (250offR / 450onR)

        Passengers -----------------------YES------------- Able to accomodate 8 full kit troops + 1 driver
        (4min)

        Payload---------------------------YES -------------- 2400kg total (passengers included)
        (1m³ min) (150kg)

        Tow Weight ----------------------YES---------------218hp with 1300Nm @ 1200rpm
        (3.5Ton)

        NATO Std Equip -----------------Unknown---------
        (Tow hitch / Electrical Req)

        Communications capable--------Unknown-----------

        Day/Night Sensor suite--------YES--------- RWS with IR/LI equip
        "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

        Comment


        • #34
          MOWAG Eagle IV



          Eagle IV------------------ UNIT Price in Euro: Denmark paid 330,000 extras included

          MOWAG

          Contract Requirements ------------- Yes / No --------Details

          Armament -----------------------YES--------------RWS with 7.62mm, 0.50cal, AGL Customer specific C4ISTAR-, Weapon- and other systems
          (min 7.62mm)

          Armour ---------------------------YES--------------STANAG 4569Ballistic: level 2 Mine: level 2a System add-on armour to level 3 a+b

          (7.62AP Protect min)
          (Add on Capable)

          CBRN Protect/Detect--------YES--------NBC overpressure system

          Range ---------------------------YES----------650km OnR
          (250offR / 450onR)

          Passengers ------------------YES------------- 4 passengers
          (4min)

          Payload ---------------------YES---------------2200kg at level 2a protection Customer specific roof and cargo module configuration
          (1m³ min) (150kg)

          Tow Weight ----------------YES---------------245hp 750Nm
          (3.5Ton)

          NATO Std Equip -------------YES-------------Tow hitch and Batt Elec etc
          (Tow hitch / Electrical Req)

          Communications capable----YES-----------SINGR Capable

          Day/Night Sensor suite[/QUOTE]------YES------Through RWS Equip
          "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

          Comment


          • #35
            vehicle pictures

            Big collection of 'urban patrol vehicles' pictures - including many under discussion here - at http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ad.php?t=70508

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by ZULU View Post
              As far as I can recall, there was a trip to Eritrea that got a couple of DF personnel in trouble because of them wanting to "Touch the natives"

              Objects to be passed in = Bullets, at high velocity. Grenades, CB threats such as Gas, Blood.

              Sticking your head out for a look = getting it chopped or shot off. Thats what a RWS is for.

              Doors can be used in your shopping trip role as well you know

              You really haven't thought this one through have you?



              Yes - Thats what turrets and RWS are for.



              Practical being a CBRN hermetic seal is easier around the door frame rather than around the door and window. If you had experience of pressure vessel design you would see that you need a certain gasket pressure through use of a bolt circle to effectively seal an appature.



              I have no sway with any of the DF procurment boards.
              Your first point is irrelevant.

              You seem to think that troops on operations spend their whole time being shot at which even in relatively hot areas like afghan is not the case.

              Your smug and superior replies belie a distinct lack of realism in your thinking.

              I would concede that I have no technical knowledge of pressure sealing but I doubt that the Army is going to compromise day to day operational utility in pursuit of a higher level. Similiarly it seems highly unlikely that these vehicles will feature any sort of overpressure system as standard.

              RWS are a means of coping when you are underfire, not a replacement for windows.

              Again this is not a fighting vehicle, it is a Utility vehicle with some built in armour protection and the ability to return fire from under protection if neccesary.
              Last edited by Come-quickly; 19 April 2007, 18:43.
              "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

              Comment


              • #37
                Would CIT operations be a consideration in the selection of these vehicles?
                Or would we be sticking with the existing setup at the moment (namely 4 WD's)?

                Murph, heard a couple of months that a Land Rover vehicle (type unknown to my source) was being trialled.

                Can someone enlighten me why we went from Land Rover to Nissan in the 90's?
                Cost? Reliability? All of the above?

                I didn't hold an AF154 at that point, so such things didn't bother me.

                And if this was the reason why we changed in the first instance, is it that Land Rover have gotten their act together and produced a superior product?

                [Mod: See seperate thread for discussion about the possible return of Land Rovers]
                Last edited by Barry; 19 April 2007, 20:18.
                "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Come-quickly View Post
                  You seem to think that troops on operations spend their whole time being shot at which even in relatively hot areas like afghan is not the case.
                  What does a hot area got to do with the amount of times being shot at? These vehicles are (Building up the smug and sarcastic attitude) Light TACTICAL ASSAULT VEHICLES

                  Tactical = Method for attaining a specific goal
                  Assault = A military attack on an objective

                  Your smug and superior replies belie a distinct lack of realism in your thinking.
                  My lack of realistic thinking is only the same thinking as almost every other Armed forces engaged in tactical assault missions AND peacekeeping/enforcing

                  Those armed forces are armouring their "show the love to the locals" vehicles due to the asymmetric warfare now being faced.

                  I would concede that I have no technical knowledge of pressure sealing but I doubt that the Army is going to compromise day to day operational utility in pursuit of a higher level. Similiarly it seems highly unlikely that these vehicles will feature any sort of overpressure system as standard.
                  Thats not the only type of knowledge your lacking. The DF requirements specifically state a CBRN protect and detect ability. This is most easily achieved by an over-pressure system, but this needs power to perform. Fail safes such as one way valves and seals are the other way.

                  These are not utility vehicles. They are LTAVs. They have a definite role. Recon, assault, CSS (Eng), Convoy protection.

                  RWS are a means of coping when you are underfire, not a replacement for windows.
                  Are you actually saying that a RWS mounted on an elevated position with IR/LI capabilities is no match for "sticking your head out the window and having a gander" ?

                  Again this is not a fighting vehicle, it is a Utility vehicle with some built in armour protection and the ability to return fire from under protection if neccesary.
                  This is where you should stop, read up on the DF contract specifications and the global trend for armoured vehicles.

                  IMO - You should stop trying to compare a Nissan that you drive to the range in and a LTAV that is used in a Recon/CSS/Assault role.
                  Last edited by ZULU; 19 April 2007, 21:33.
                  "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                    What does a hot area got to do with the amount of times being shot at? These vehicles are (Building up the smug and sarcastic attitude) Light TACTICAL ASSAULT VEHICLES

                    Tactical = Method for attaining a specific goal
                    Assault = A military attack on an objective
                    Don't mean to be picky ZULU, but I think it's Light Tactical Armoured Vehicle
                    Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

                    Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      :wink: My bad - Just my thinking on the vehicles intended role. If you need to be armoured your going to be shot at, and hence return fire. (Out your armoured roll down window, wearing sunglasses and smoking a cigarette )

                      Of course you can't use the word Assault in your contract - the Greens and Crusties would have a field day
                      Last edited by ZULU; 19 April 2007, 21:36.
                      "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                        :wink: My bad - Just my thinking on the vehicles intended role. If you need to be armoured your going to be shot at, and hence return fire. (Out your armoured roll down window, wearing sunglasses and smoking a cigarette )

                        Of course you can't use the word Assault in your contract - the Greens and Crusties would have a field day
                        Cool is good....and screw the crusties, run them over with the nice new LTAV and smother the Greenies with the exhaust

                        BTW, another new vehicle that might be in the running, the Renault Sherpa 3
                        Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

                        Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          No hotlinking allowed I think.
                          Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

                          Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

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                          • #43
                            ">
                            Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

                            Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by mutter nutter View Post
                              Cool is good....and screw the crusties, run them over with the nice new LTAV and smother the Greenies with the exhaust
                              I'll have you know the MOWAG Eagle IV is EURO 4 emissions compliant!!!
                              "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                                I'll have you know the MOWAG Eagle IV is EURO 4 emissions compliant!!!
                                They could test the RWS on them......just sayin.
                                Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

                                Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

                                Comment

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