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  1. #101
    Cut backs luchi's Avatar
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    If they were painted grey they could pass for PSNI land rovers

    Seriously though how often is such a vehicle needed.

    Is this just Willie looking for more toys for the boys
    Without supplies no army is brave.

    —Frederick the Great,

    Instructions to his Generals, 1747

  2. #102
    MIA mugs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luchi View Post
    Is this just Willie looking for more toys for the boys
    *pft* let him

  3. #103
    BQMS spider pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luchi View Post
    If they were painted grey they could pass for PSNI land rovers

    Seriously though how often is such a vehicle needed.

    Is this just Willie looking for more toys for the boys

    Are you complaining about getingnew toys
    Sir I cant find my peltors........Private they are on your face

  4. #104
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luchi View Post
    If they were painted grey they could pass for PSNI land rovers

    Seriously though how often is such a vehicle needed.

    Is this just Willie looking for more toys for the boys
    anything that adds not only to our protection but to

    our safety

    cannot be simply dismissed as a toy

    But in reality I am sure you were simply joking
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  5. #105
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luchi View Post
    If they were painted grey they could pass for PSNI land rovers

    Seriously though how often is such a vehicle needed.

    Is this just Willie looking for more toys for the boys
    I take it you don't have a Copy of the TAMS then.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by luchi View Post
    If they were painted grey they could pass for PSNI land rovers

    Seriously though how often is such a vehicle needed.

    Is this just Willie looking for more toys for the boys

    Perhaps you'd like to go off the metal roads in South Lebanon and put your theory to the test that armored vehicles are just toy's for the boy's.
    I guess you haven't served overseas then....?

  7. #107
    6-40509-04014-7 yooklid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luchi View Post
    If they were painted grey they could pass for PSNI land rovers

    Seriously though how often is such a vehicle needed.

    Is this just Willie looking for more toys for the boys
    DON'T FEED THE TROLL!
    Meh.

  8. #108
    zzzzing! CS Gass's Avatar
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    Feck all visibility out of the A4/A5 AVXL, surely that would go against it i know the windows need to be small for obvious reasons but still arent they a wee bit too small?

  9. #109
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    UK Panther

    The Panther Command and Liaison Vehicle (Iveco LMV) is described on the UK MOD website as a replacement for the Ferret Scout Car. "Since this was taken out of service in the early 1990s, the roles have been performed by a mixture of vehicles, including the Scimitar family, FV430, Saxon and LandRover, none of which are fully suited for these roles."

    Interestingly, the website lists these very specific roles for the Panther:

    - Liaison Officers for Armoured, Armoured Recce and Armoured Infantry Units
    - Commander’s vehicle for Engineer Troops, Anti-Tank, Mortar and supporting fire platoons
    - REME asset co-ordination
    - RAF Regt Field Squadron tasks, RAF EOD
    - Rebroadcast on BattleGroup nets and Regimental Signal Officers
    - Route proving for Close and General Support Engineer units
    - Battery Reconnaissance Officer.

    I wonder how this list relates to the tasks of the LTAV.

  10. #110
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    Belgian contenders

    When the Belgians selected the Iveco LMV a couple of years ago, these were the other contenders:

    * AUTOMOTIVE TECHNIK Ltd-PINZGAUER 4x4 (Royaume-Uni)
    * LAND SYSTEMS OMC-RG32M (Afrique du Sud)
    * PANHARD-A4 Fast (France)
    * RENAULT-SHERPA 2,5 (France)
    * SANTANA-PS-10 (Espagne)
    * URO-VAMTAC (Espagne)
    * LANDROVER DEFENDER 110 (Royaume-Uni)

    Belgium is getting an initial tranche of 440 vehicles, with another 180 at a later stage. Cost is around €200,000 each, a lot less than the UK appear to be paying.

  11. #111
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Possibly because Alvis are building the British ones?

    I thought Pinzgauer were made in Germany?

    The URO Vamtac was the "Humvee" seen in Dublin and the Curragh some months ago being "evaluated"

  12. #112
    My tank is bigger... California Tanker's Avatar
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    I had a gander at a the Panther than the MOD was playing with at ATDU, but being ATDU, wasn't allowed take pics.

    As configured, it's basically a wheeled command vehicle, and isn't suited for liaison/runabout or scouting roles at all. Very nicely equipped for a battalion commander though.

    NTM
    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

  13. #113
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Pinzgauer Production was shifted to the UK last year
    Time for another break I think......

  14. #114
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    Lince



    Following deployment to western Afghanistan late last year, one of the Italian Army’s Iveco LMVs was damaged by an IED on March 25. None of its passengers were injured, although it’s not clear if this was due to the protection capabilities of the vehicle.

    The Iveco LMV is called the the VTLM (Veicolo Tattico Leggero Multiruolo) or Light Tactical Multi-Role Vehicle, in the Italian Army, but it’s also been christened the ‘Lince’ (Lynx). Unit cost for the Italian Army’s Iveco LMV is €274,000, but they are buying 1,150 initially, maybe more later, and Italian Linces do not have an RWS.

    The Iveco LMV defeated the Mowag Eagle IV among others in last year’s Norwegian LTAV competition. The Norwegians are paying €320,000 each for 25 vehicles for patrol and reconnaissance tasks in Afghanistan, with an option for a further 47. Again they appear to be unarmed. The Iveco vehicles are intended to fill the span between the unarmored G-wagens and the CV9030 IFVs.


  15. #115
    Corporal Tribunius's Avatar
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    This is just some more of the article above.

    “It is not confirmed whether the superior protection provided by the VTLM made a difference in this particular case, but the fact remains that it’s an effective design, as proven by the order placed by the U.K. for the vehicle,” said Alberto Scarpitta, defense editor for the Italian publication Analisi Difesa.
    “The creation of an insulated capsule for passengers and the distancing of engine parts from the capsule is a reflection of how the vehicle was designed from scratch to resist mines, unlike the Humvee,” Scarpitta said.
    Also separate from the capsule are the rear cargo compartment and the fuel tank, which are designed to separate in the event of an explosion. Built by Bolzano-based Iveco, the VTLM also features a V-shaped underside to deflect blasts, seats fixed to the roll bar instead of the floor, and armor skins — from German firm IBD — that can be swapped out depending on danger levels.
    The arrival of the 4.8-meter long, 2.2-meter wide VTLM in Afghanistan and Lebanon has reduced the pressure on two more vulnerable Italian vehicles, the VM-90 and the Puma, the latter a light scout vehicle designed during the 1980s.

    The complete article can be found at the link below

    http://defensenews.com/story.php?F=2697031&C=europe

  16. #116
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    combat and combat support

    Quote Originally Posted by California Tanker View Post
    I had a gander at a the Panther than the MOD was playing with at ATDU, but being ATDU, wasn't allowed take pics.

    As configured, it's basically a wheeled command vehicle, and isn't suited for liaison/runabout or scouting roles at all. Very nicely equipped for a battalion commander though.

    NTM

    This is the problem I have with the Irish LTAV specs, insofar as they are known: they are trying to get one vehicle to cover a very broad range of roles. IMHO, the ideal solution would be (i) a Mowag Eagle/Iveco LMV type vehicle, for the combat support roles, and (ii) a fighting vehicle - a scout car or armoured car - for the combat roles. I know this would probably cost more and would cause logistical complications, but it would enhance effectiveness.

  17. #117
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Good idea in principle, but the problem is there are very few "scout cars" in the traditional sense in production any more that are not also in the Mowag Eagle class. Its not what the market requires any more. Instead you have something like the Eagle, fitted with RWS.

  18. #118
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    market hasn't caught up yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Good idea in principle, but the problem is there are very few "scout cars" in the traditional sense in production any more that are not also in the Mowag Eagle class. Its not what the market requires any more. Instead you have something like the Eagle, fitted with RWS.

    Yes, you're right, there aren't too many options when it comes to smaller wheeled fighting vehicles. At one end of the spectrum would be my old favourite, the Panhard VBL, with a turret or RWS, total weight about 4 tonnes. At the other end would be the U.S. Army's M1117, weighing in at around 13 tonnes.

    The M1117 story shows how the market is changing rapidly. It was initially used by the U.S. Military in small numbers and limited roles, but now they're buying them by the thousand and it's the standard convoy escort vehicle in Iraq.



    More info. at http://www.textronmarineandland.com/..._datasheet.pdf

  19. #119
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    That looks familiar. Is it an old design?

  20. #120
    MIA mugs's Avatar
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    Yes it is, they used a similar, less armoured version, in Vietnam. I see a picture of it last night actually.

    Last edited by mugs; 6th May 2007 at 12:25.
    Theirs not to make reply,
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    Theirs but to do and die:
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    Rode the six hundred.

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  21. #121
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    Interesting opinion piece on replacing the HMMWV

    http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/008317.php

  22. #122
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Thought as much. Brits bring back the FV432 with a new name and more armour, US bring back the Commando in the same way. Isn't having surplus stock great.

  23. #123
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    new M1117s

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Thought as much. Brits bring back the FV432 with a new name and more armour, US bring back the Commando in the same way. Isn't having surplus stock great.

    Whatever about the FV432, the M1117s are new builds. It's a development of the original design, same as the Mowag Piranha III is a development of a design from the early 1970s. It was one of four vehicles considered in 2005 by the Danish Army, before they finally settled on the Mowag Eagle IV.

    Details at http://www.textronmarineandland.com/..._datasheet.pdf
    Last edited by thebig C; 30th May 2007 at 20:47.

  24. #124
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    The ASV 150/M1117 are not upgrades of old vehicles as the FV 432 has been, they are completely new build vehicles, with new armour, drivetrain, electronics, and their Timoney designed independent suspension.

    The hull design is an update of the old LAV 100 hull!

    IAS

  25. #125
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    I see that the Americans are talking about replacing their LTAVs with MRAPs!

    Maybe the DF should consider the Bushmaster instead of LTAVs (back on my hobby horse).

    IAS

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