Thanks Thanks:  29
Likes Likes:  70
Dislikes Dislikes:  1
Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345
Results 101 to 119 of 119
  1. #101
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,884
    Post Thanks / Like

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    Yes they do.

    As to whether it is a waste, that surely depends on your views of education and professional development
    Don’t get me wrong 3rd level qualifications aren’t a waste. I have 3 and gained relevant employment from same.

    But at a time when newly commissioned officers lack military experience, there aren’t enough officers in appointments in units, etc etc would they not be better off in their units ?

    If the course is relevant and required by the DF, that is obviously necessary and a different kettle of fish.

    >60% of school leavers currently go to 3rd Level.

    There are great benefits to the DF and Officer/student
    Last edited by DeV; 10th July 2019 at 15:23.

  2. #102
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    248
    Post Thanks / Like
    It is a subject for a different thread I think

  3. Likes na grohmiti liked this post
  4. #103
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like
    A few observations if I may.

    CFR courses are to be welcomed. Not annually but certainly periodically, 3 years seems a fair compromise. There is definitely benefits and some pitfalls. The expertise many of the NCOs bring to the officer ranks is to be welcomed and utilised. Some (and I mean a minority percentage) struggle with the daily grind as an officer in some units. The new found expectation of having to routinely stay after NWH without the guarantee of a DIL ruffles more than some feathers. I have had one even infer to me that they regretted taking the commission because of the additional workload. Have many CFR officers worked in SPB out of interest? Everyone is different of course, but just some food for thought.

    The standard of officers produced by the cadet school, particularly in the last 2-3 classes has decreased for various reasons. The large numbers now mean that you might get 10-15 very good officers, 30 or so average, and the remainder very poor. Given the cream generally tend to go to Cavalry, CIS, Arty etc its no surprise that the "not so good" officers end up in infantry battalions. The increased demands for personnel has meant that the standard of applicant has decreased. This isnt just for officer ranks either. The calibre of some of the individuals passing out after recruit is frightening. I guess that's what happens when the bar is allowed to lower so much. And of course, if you are a female, there appears to be no standards at all. Fail the fitness test? No problem, sign the attestation form and we will worry about that small matter later.

    As for USAC. USAC is even a bigger waste of money then the reserve in my opinion, this is not a dig but my honest opinion. I am heavily in favor of further education and continued professional development but sending some some 19 year old off to college to study arts for 3-4 years offers the army very little. The sooner it is eradicated and all officers are commissioned a 2/Lt the better.

    Lastly, as for the graduate/non-graduate debate. I have first hand experience of graduate officers who I would not trust with a weapon. Officers with degrees and masters who I wonder how they tie their laces on a daily basis. On the other hand, I have come across some school leavers who are excellent and outperform and buy and sell peers several class senior. Of course, the opposite is true also for both sets of entrants. My point is, having a degree does not make you a better officer. There are numerous ways to complete degrees through the DF without going missing for 4 years.
    Last edited by Chuck; 10th July 2019 at 15:56.

  5. #104
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,927
    Post Thanks / Like
    Sending your most enthusiastic officers offto be students for 3 years instead of putting them in the job they've joined and trained for - commanding soldiers - is the dumbest, most self-defeating idea in all of Christendom.

    Oh, I forgot...

  6. Likes Flamingo, apod, sofa liked this post
  7. #105
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,663
    Post Thanks / Like
    The standard of officers produced by the cadet school, particularly in the last 2-3 classes has decreased for various reasons.
    Based on what evidence?

    And of course, if you are a female, there appears to be no standards at all. Fail the fitness test? No problem, sign the attestation form and we will worry about that small matter later.
    Again evidence please ?

    Lastly, as for the graduate/non-graduate debate. I have first hand experience of graduate officers who I would not trust with a weapon. Officers with degrees and masters who I wonder how they tie their laces on a daily basis. On the other hand, I have come across some school leavers who are excellent and outperform and buy and sell peers several class senior.
    So how can this be if they all go through the same system with the same qualifying criteria.

    Now I have no doubt that you are spot on in your observations, but these are the same things that have been offered about officers since God was a boy, and while every effort to update the standards and practices , because there is human involvement failure is always a reality.
    Time for another break I think......

  8. #106
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Based on what evidence?



    Again evidence please ?



    So how can this be if they all go through the same system with the same qualifying criteria.

    Now I have no doubt that you are spot on in your observations, but these are the same things that have been offered about officers since God was a boy, and while every effort to update the standards and practices , because there is human involvement failure is always a reality.

    You know I cannot provide you with evidence, just as there is no evidence to the contrary.

    What you have quoted above is my own opinion, it is not a 'fact' as such but I didn't expect I needed to explain that.

    All I can say is that this is my experience having seen what has come through the system. The sample size is based on well over 10 years of cadet classes and interactions with said officers in various environments.

    My last point refers to the fact that *IMO* USAC is an incredible waste of time and resources.
    Last edited by Chuck; 10th July 2019 at 17:25.

  9. #107
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,663
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    You know I cannot provide you with evidence, just as there is no evidence to the contrary.

    What you have quoted above is my own opinion, it is not a 'fact' as such but I didn't expect I needed to explain that.

    All I can say is that this is my experience having seen what has come through the system. The sample size is based on well over 10 years of cadet classes and interactions with said officers in various environments.

    My last point refers to the fact that *IMO* USAC is an incredible waste of time and resources.
    As I said I neither agree or disagree with any point you make, my point being unless its official and proven based on evidence , nothing changes.

    We could all highlight examples of what you describe.... we had some real doozies in the NS but there was a secondary filter after cadet school and that was watch keeping exams, didn't pass that, your career went sideways, didn't mean that all who had were bright sparks but it tended to thin out the real thickos.

    Yes, education is great and it should be equal access across the ranks, CFRs great stuff if you can get the right applicants with the right enhancements, but in a high degree of cases we have a history of promoting the wrong people for the wrong reasons and then because they have not gone through the 'school' they tend to be treated by lepers by their brother officers.

    Are leaders born and not made being the obvious question?
    Time for another break I think......

  10. #108
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    5,234
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    then because they have not gone through the 'school' they tend to be treated by lepers by their brother officers.
    That is beginning to change and the more often a CFR course is run the more that attitude will change.

  11. Likes DeV, hptmurphy liked this post
  12. #109
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    248
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have heard this notion of "not treated as equals" before.

    I can tell you that it is untrue.

    If the newly commissioned officer doesn't make the transition themselves such as going for coffee with their old mates every day instead of associating with their new peers, carries a chip on their shoulder due to some percieved difference / grievance etc then they will not integrate as easily as others.

    Those that integrate themselves easier are fully accepted and usually more is thought of them as they come with a lot of practical experiences that a 2/Lt wouldnt have.

    Out of the CFR courses commissioned after I was, I can only think of 1 guy that people think of as "different" and that is because they treat themselves as different.

    I think the the o/ranks are more likely to think of the CFR as different, for reasons good, bad and indifferent

  13. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV, sofa liked this post
  14. #110
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    The Big Smoke
    Posts
    5,234
    Post Thanks / Like
    I agree and any I have come across bring a hell of a lot to the organisation and often become the go to person for higher ups as they know shit will get done.

    However I have heard heard a few comments from a couple of junior officers in the past along the lines of "Who does he think he is? He is only a jumped up cpl/sgt/CS". But that said more about the inadequacies of said junior officer.

  15. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes hptmurphy liked this post
  16. #111
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    138
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Fantasia View Post
    I have heard this notion of "not treated as equals" before.

    I can tell you that it is untrue.

    If the newly commissioned officer doesn't make the transition themselves such as going for coffee with their old mates every day instead of associating with their new peers, carries a chip on their shoulder due to some percieved difference / grievance etc then they will not integrate as easily as others.

    Those that integrate themselves easier are fully accepted and usually more is thought of them as they come with a lot of practical experiences that a 2/Lt wouldnt have.

    Out of the CFR courses commissioned after I was, I can only think of 1 guy that people think of as "different" and that is because they treat themselves as different.

    I think the the o/ranks are more likely to think of the CFR as different, for reasons good, bad and indifferent
    I have to agree.

    I can honestly say that I have never heard of experienced a CFR officer being excluded from any officer group because they didn't do a cadetship.

    As mentioned above, once everyone makes the effort, its a non issue. If someone is carrying a chip well that is their problem. If you are willing to put in a shift, help others and not be an obstructionist, there are rarely problems.

  17. #112
    bosun
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    cork
    Posts
    1,679
    Post Thanks / Like
    best idea is to get privates /ab,s on a cadetship maybe after 3 years service ,, some great guys are in their prime at this stage and well settled in military life..forget cfr courses for guys with high rank as most get very little job satisfaction after a while....a lot of ((well in)) have got this and have not been the best example...

  18. Likes hptmurphy liked this post
  19. #113
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,884
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by golden rivet View Post
    best idea is to get privates /ab,s on a cadetship maybe after 3 years service ,, some great guys are in their prime at this stage and well settled in military life..forget cfr courses for guys with high rank as most get very little job satisfaction after a while....a lot of ((well in)) have got this and have not been the best example...
    There’s a place for both

  20. #114
    Lt General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,816
    Post Thanks / Like
    There should be something in between Senior NCO rank and officer.
    Someone who demonstrates actual leadership ability, but with the practical effectiveness of a senior NCO. Many armies have Warrant officer rank for this purpose. (Not to be confused with the Naval Warrant officer, who is in effect a Sgt Major). They are senior to a senior NCO, but junior to a Lieutenant JG.

    A young Corporal with proven leadership abilities and aptitude for management positions should be encouraged to enter the Cadet school, instead of CFR.
    A Sergeant or above, with similar abilities, but of more advanced age would be wasted wearing 2 pips. There should be something in between for this person, with appropriate specialised appointments relevant to role.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  21. #115
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    248
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    There should be something in between Senior NCO rank and officer.
    Someone who demonstrates actual leadership ability, but with the practical effectiveness of a senior NCO. Many armies have Warrant officer rank for this purpose. (Not to be confused with the Naval Warrant officer, who is in effect a Sgt Major). They are senior to a senior NCO, but junior to a Lieutenant JG.

    A young Corporal with proven leadership abilities and aptitude for management positions should be encouraged to enter the Cadet school, instead of CFR.
    A Sergeant or above, with similar abilities, but of more advanced age would be wasted wearing 2 pips. There should be something in between for this person, with appropriate specialised appointments relevant to role.
    The Warrant Officer you describe fits neither of the 2 main ones that spring to mind. The US model has WOs as specialists that are on a suitable pay scale, they provide leadership but are often DE roles.

    The UK WOs are more akin to our SNCOs.

    The Finns have WOs that kind of fit the model you talk about but they tend to use them more for specialists like nurses, commops, logisticians etc from my experience but even the Finns do not understand the Finnish rank and promotion structure.

  22. Likes ropebag, DeV liked this post
  23. #116
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,884
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    A young Corporal with proven leadership abilities and aptitude for management positions should be encouraged to enter the Cadet school, instead of CFR.
    A Sergeant or above, with similar abilities, but of more advanced age would be wasted wearing 2 pips. There should be something in between for this person, with appropriate specialised appointments relevant to role.
    Corporals can and do (if eligible for a cadetship)

    If I had a choice between a 15 month cadetship starting everything from scratch followed by courses which are included in Pot Offrs Cse at a later date.

    Or the approx 45 week course..... no brainer

  24. #117
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,663
    Post Thanks / Like
    I can honestly say that I have never heard of experienced a CFR officer being excluded from any officer group because they didn't do a cadetship.
    Maybe its a thing of the past, but I certainly know of a couple both army and NS who were indeed treated as outsiders, Direct entries in the Navy tended to be treated with some scorn by both the enlisted and commissioned based on the assumption they were real sailors as they hadn't gone through the same shit as everyone else.

    I think the the o/ranks are more likely to think of the CFR as different, for reasons good, bad and indifferent
    It will depend on how the individual acted in his former life and how he acts in his new life. Again I know of some great guys who made the change..and some who shouldn't never.

    A relative of my wifes recently was commissioned having been enlisted in a battalion for a few years... he is going to be a good officer because he was a good private. He went through the school but is a switched on youngfella with set goals. Lets hope the army manage to hang on to him for a while as too many of the good fellas get bored after a few years and leave.

    best idea is to get privates /ab,s on a cadetship maybe after 3 years service ,, some great guys are in their prime at this stage and well settled in military life..forget cfr courses for guys with high rank as most get very little job satisfaction after a while....a lot of ((well in)) have got this and have not been the best example..
    .

    Spot on and I reckon we could name the same names. The good guys could nearly be earmarked as recruits!
    Time for another break I think......

  25. #118
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Over the water
    Posts
    3,657
    Post Thanks / Like
    If commissioned having previously served with a unit, does the new officer go back to that same unit?
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  26. #119
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    248
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    If commissioned having previously served with a unit, does the new officer go back to that same unit?
    Ordinarily no, but the Defence Forces has allowed some to do so recently.

  27. Thanks Flamingo thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •