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  1. #26
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Am I mistaken in repeating what i've been told; that the DF gives the square root of **** all support for ORs to do part time education? At the same time the Army & NS are still paying leaving cert students to go to college ffs.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by The real Jack View Post
    Am I mistaken in repeating what i've been told; that the DF gives the square root of **** all support for ORs to do part time education? At the same time the Army & NS are still paying leaving cert students to go to college ffs.
    When it comes to part time education, the job comes first. They'll "try" look after you but if you're a young buck on the lines you can forget it.

    The previous PO Cse only required a Leaving Cert with 5 passes at Ordinary or Higher Level... So what's changed?

    This PO Cse now has a higher educational requirement than a Cadetship... And students on a PO Cse will have years of military experience under their belt, overseas service and countless military courses, including at minimum a PNCO Cse which now includes a Level 6 in Leadership, Management and Defence Studies.

    There's only one reason the Level 7 is being made a requirement and it's clear as day.

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  4. #28
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    What is a Level 7 when it is at home
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  5. #29
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    I've heard people say "when it is at home" before but I've never really understood the intent.... Has Dev hijacked trells account? A level 7 is up to a 3 year degree, god knows how long it would take as a night course.
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  6. #30
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    I can assure you I am me and not dev.

    On topic - why is an L7 being made a requirement for CFR ? Was it beforehand ? . When I did RDF PO it was not a requirement but a very strong "you should probably have one of these"
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    I can assure you I am me and not dev.

    On topic - why is an L7 being made a requirement for CFR ? Was it beforehand ? . When I did RDF PO it was not a requirement but a very strong "you should probably have one of these"
    No, the last PO Cse only required a pass in any 5 subjects at Ordinary or Higher Level in the Leaving Cert.

    As for why it's suddenly required... Who knows? I have my suspicions as to why it has been put in place though. The educational requirement for a PO Cse now surpasses that required for a Cadetship.

    Two separate standards to serve at the same rank all because you're enlisted is a bit much.
    Last edited by Fridge Magnet; 20th March 2017 at 16:51.

  8. #32
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Who knows? I have my suspicions as to why it has been put in place though. The educational requirement for a PO Cse now surpasses that required for a Cadetship.
    that seems like a silly move given the numbers leaving . Also then for a young lad is it not then more advisable to apply for the cadetship itself ? Appreciate age may be a factor.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  9. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fridge Magnet View Post
    No, the last PO Cse only required a pass in any 5 subjects at Ordinary or Higher Level in the Leaving Cert.

    As for why it's suddenly required... Who knows? I have my suspicions as to why it has been put in place though. The educational requirement for a PO Cse now surpasses that required for a Cadetship.

    Two separate standards to serve at the same rank all because you're enlisted is very shady.

    Take into consideration that recent graduates of senior nco courses have been accredited to level 7 degrees through IT Carlow and that its not uncommon for privates to have degrees these days, never mind corporals..........

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  11. #34
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    I think there may be some jumping the gun here , I sincerely doubt that CFRs will need higher education qualifications then cadets, I would imagine the old leaving cert qualifications still apply and these are an additional qualification, an attempt to allow NCOs with no leaving cert but who have since gained level seven qualifications though IT Carlow and their career courses, to qualify for a CFR cse. I would have significant doubts that we would be narrowing qualifications for such a high profile course.
    Last edited by Jack Booted Man; 19th March 2017 at 23:16. Reason: Typo

  12. #35
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    FM, so what's with the level 7?

    As I see it it could be a good way to fill tech vacancies

    And no I'm not trellheim

  13. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    What is a Level 7 when it is at home
    QQI Level 7 is an Ordinary Degree, QQI Level 8 is a Higher Degree
    Known as a Diploma and a Degree respectively in our day...
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  14. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    QQI Level 7 is an Ordinary Degree, QQI Level 8 is a Higher Degree
    Known as a Diploma and a Degree respectively in our day...
    On a side note, where do "advanced diplomas" and "post graduate diplomas" come in the pecking order?
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  15. #38
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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  17. #39
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    so does this mean no one puts an X as a signature any more ... lol.... where are we going with all this education crap ,,, you wont be any help if you come under pressure in a zone ,, ie at sea..or overseas if you have not basic issue ,,COP ON ,,,no wonder things are gone pear shaped ,,, civy street where I work now start off young engineers as apprentices first for 2 years ,some of them over 500 points in leaving cert ,, so education aint everything ,, some of best servicemen who won full honours in battle had little education but they had skill,,courage ,,and determination to get the job done.... was a lot of this brought in so when top level left they had degrees to go in civvy street ,,, not many ncos are full time in the coast guard ,,

  18. #40
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    Its all got to do with the manner in which organisations are rated internationally, the amount and type of degrees etc held by the memberships is one of the vital stats that settles the rating. It all harks to "international studies" that assert that the higher the rating the more effective, robust, outcome driven etc the organisation.

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  20. #41
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    It's accreditation (external validation of DF courses (and experience)) by an independent university/college (plus their overseeing body.

    It's also what all our peers do

  21. #42
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    It also drastically narrows the applications. Personally I think, if you want those type of requirements the entry level should be capt for all. A late 30's Lt doesn't give much room for promotion.

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  23. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craghopper View Post
    It also drastically narrows the applications. Personally I think, if you want those type of requirements the entry level should be capt for all. A late 30's Lt doesn't give much room for promotion.
    Its up to each potential candidate to decide whether the terms and conditions of a promotion are going to work for them. As an NCO they are effectively "safe" from being moved to another unit bar something drastic like reorg mk2 taking place or for the purpose of promotion, however once they take the commission its a life on the road as the retired commandant on newstalk alluded to. Few officers stay in the one place for a long time, unless they've volunteered to "man the wall" at castle black (finner) or eastwatch by the sea (aiken). Equally its not the job of the organisation to give us "nice things" like promotion when we want it, we're all here to fill a need and if they're angling for certain types of person to fill particular roles well then so be it.

    If there wasn't external accreditation then golden rivet et all would probably be screaming "its an officers DF, us salt of the earth lads who do the real work get nathin bayyyee ". On the subject of which, can anyone point out an armed force where it isn't an "officers army/navy/airforce etc?" Even the various peoples militias always seem to develop a hierarchy where everyone is equal but some are more definitely more equal than others.

    External education and accreditation is important, far to many DF personnel have left without recognised qualifications and gone to civvie employers who don't understand the nature of the service - they do understand qualifications though.

    This chip on the shoulder about the "top level" is absolute b0llix. Who are "they"? The officers? They've typically done masters on their own outside the DF. The accreditation scheme I believe strongly benefits everyone. When people leave the DF many employers think of an NCO as a hardman, sh1tekicker but not that bright ala the stereotype that hollywood sometimes portrays. The fact sgts and above are coming out with a BA after their name is only a good thing - employers get what a BA is, what the hell is wrong with making people employable after they leave?
    Last edited by northie; 23rd March 2017 at 19:42.

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  25. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by northie View Post
    Its up to each potential candidate to decide whether the terms and conditions of a promotion is going to work for them. As an NCO they are effectively "safe" from being moved to another unit bar something drastic like reorg mk2 taking place or for the purpose of promotion, however once they take the commission its a life on the road as the retired commandant on newstalk alluded to. Few officers stay in the one place for a long time, unless they've volunteered to "man the wall" at castle black (finner) or eastwatch by the sea (aiken). Equally its not the job of the organisation to give us "nice things" like promotion when we want it, we're all here to fill a need and if they're angling for certain types of person to fill particular roles well then so be it.

    If there wasn't external accreditation then golden rivet et all would probably be screaming "its an officers DF, us salt of the earth lads who do the real work get nathin bayyyee ". On the subject of which, can anyone point out an armed force where it isn't an "officers army/navy/airforce etc?" Even the various peoples militias always seem to develop a hierarchy where everyone is equal but some are more definitely more equal than others.

    External education and accreditation is important, far to many DF personnel have left without recognised qualifications and gone to civvie employers who don't understand the nature of the service - they do understand qualifications though.

    This chip on the shoulder about the "top level" is absolute b0llix. Who are "they"? The officers? They've typically done masters on their own outside the DF. The accreditation scheme I believe strongly benefits everyone. When people leave the DF many employers think of an NCO as a hardman, sh1tekicker but not that bright ala the stereotype that hollywood sometimes portrays. The fact sgts and above are coming out with a BA after their name is only a good thing - employers get what a BA is, what the hell is wrong with making people employable after they leave?
    Good points made.. I know many PO's who have stayed relatively close to their home station when they were NCO's. There was one who was a day away from being retired and got promoted. I thought about applying but I think after seeing how badly the last PO's were treated I'll stay where I am. I have a level 9.

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  27. #45
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Its all got to do with the manner in which organisations are rated internationally, the amount and type of degrees etc held by the memberships is one of the vital stats that settles the rating. It all harks to "international studies" that assert that the higher the rating the more effective, robust, outcome driven etc the organisation.
    It depends on how the organization chooses to be rated and what metrics it chooses to rate it self on . this is absolutely critical. I empathize very strongly with Golden Rivet's point.

    There are banks of consultants for a large fee who will tell you best practice is to do academic stuff - its their job . However you have to look at the size of the DF and what outputs you can get for the money you have

    I'm in IT - essentially an uncertified trade ; there are NO useful qualifications you can compare people on once you get to journeyman level and we actively welcome people with all degrees.

    If you look at hyper certifications like CCIE they are rare and very valuable - it's a 1 man in 10,000 level qualification but is it useful in mainstream IT ... no not really you'll be operating at severe altitude
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  28. #46
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    P/O Stuart Hamilton has written on this in the DFR 2016

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    Thinking further it seems quite a few NS SNCO's have done the BA in Leadership & Naval Studies and combined with the AC's who have done the Avionics in Carlow RTC it should not be surprising should the majority of Ceefors come from these cohorts on this occasion . Getting the gig for these candidates wont mean getting posted out as each of these services have only one base.

    Good luck to all concerned.
    Last edited by danno; 24th March 2017 at 07:46.

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