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Thread: Modern Pirates

  1. #76
    My tank is bigger... California Tanker's Avatar
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    Last time they did that was in 1993 during the battle of Mogadishu and remember the result of that!!!
    A hell of a lot of dead militiamen. They might have won the cost/benefit ratio in terms of dollars, but in terms of lives? No pirate group is that large.

    NTM
    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

  2. #77
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by California Tanker View Post
    A hell of a lot of dead militiamen. They might have won the cost/benefit ratio in terms of dollars, but in terms of lives? No pirate group is that large.

    NTM
    They could have probably lost 10 times that many and not have worried. They achieved their goal, their political objective and emerged as the strongest faction in the civil war with a far larger faction than before. Body count really didn't matter to them, it was not their centre of gravity.

    I gave Mogadishu as an example of what can be achieved. Irish ships would be dangerously underarmed and unsupported for an area like this.

  3. #78
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    I think its fair to say our level of armament would be similar to most other warships currently working in the area, with the exception of missiles, which are pretty ineffective against the type of craft used by the Pirates anyway.
    Have a look at the type of ship that has been involved in anti Piracy patrols and tel me how they have better armament than say for example, Eithne, or Niamh?

  4. #79
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    I suspect the greatest obstacle to us partaking in what could very simply be framed as a humanitarian mission escorting aid vessells is one of the most pressing concerns from an ethical point of view is the fact that in the current environment spending money to save lives would go against the national religion of greed and "safety".

    "What need you, being come to sense,
    But fumble in a greasy till
    And add the halfpence to the pence
    And prayer to shivering prayer, until
    You have dried the marrow from the bone;
    For men were born to pray and save;
    Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
    It's with O'Leary in the grave.
    Oops, I meant to say Peace and Neutrality - because everyone loves someone who insists there is no good side to take.

    I don't doubt that the ships are capable but it would certainly be a whole new tactical situation for the Navy, a whole new type of danger to pile on top of the dodgy sea state.

    Are Irish Naval vessells adequately crewed to maintain a 24/7 state of tactical readiness? I know nothing of boatieland but I would suspect that maintaining security against Small Boat Raiders will require extra boots on deck at all times.

    Would a ship undertaking such a mission carry extra crew in their guest accomodation to facilitate this? Would they have to be sailors?

    Personally, and as always I am a strong believer in Ireland intervening militarily for a greater good based on the enlightenment humanist values that are supposed to underpin western civilisation.
    But I doubt a people deep in fetid fearful worship of "safety" will allow volunteer sailors to do something just because it's right.
    Much more important to be safe...oh and cheap.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  5. #80
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    "Come Quickly" that was an excellent post. There's a lot of nonsense on boards from time to time but you nailed this one. Nice use of poetry too, did that one for the "leaving" its Kavanagh right?

  6. #81
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    I think most Irish people would be very proud and supportive if the Naval Service got involved in a mission such as this. The only people questoning the cost would be the civil servants and politicians in DoD and DoF, but then that's their job, and the answer to such queries - as always - is to give such a task a high enough priority. The problem of course is that something else may have to be sacrificed off the bottom of the priority list as a result, especially the way things are at the moment.

    The other big question - apart from the political commitment and will - is whether or not we have the naval capacity to carry out such a mission - Willie says we don't. If that's true, then we either accept that we can't do it, or we do what needs to be done to give the Naval Service that sort of capability.
    Last edited by easyrider; 10th October 2008 at 19:57.

  7. #82
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Logistics & €€€€€€€€€

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Logistics & €€€€€€€€€
    If we can send ships on 'jollies' all over the world, then why can't we do a real naval job like this? Just from looking at the charts, seems like Djibouti and Mombasa are the nearest secure ports - as Bandit mentioned earlier. And the Naval Service has trained in Replenishment-at-sea, so would they not be able to refuel from a US, UK, French or whoever's oiler is operating in the area? If the Army can charter airliners to get to places like Chad, and then hire helicopters when they get there, surely it's not beyond the capabilities of the NS to do whatever is necessary to sustain a vessel off Somalia?

    And as for the money, like I said, it always comes down to priorities: if there isn't additional funding available, then the question is whether this new task is given a higher priority than some existing tasks.

  9. #84
    bosun
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    the navy can only do what it is told to do with the equipment available anyway we have enough to do on our own 132000 sq miles with small ships.. it is a problem for the shipping companies many of them wealthier than this country to PAY for the services that is required for protection... take our own problem with cash escort.. jollies is a civilian word and not a naval term

  10. #85
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Latest word on the ship full of Ukranian Tanks is that the somali pirates have threatened to sink the ship if they don't get paid...

    Hmm..

  11. #86
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    Last time I saw, the price was down to £8 million. Those pirates really are ruthless people.

    You will never have a quiet world until you knock the patriotism out of the human race

  12. #87
    CQMS Dogwatch's Avatar
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    As goldie stated previously, there is not much difference in weapons fit from a Patrol vessel to a destroyer, with regard to dealing with an asymmetric threat (e.g. pirates). PV's and their ilk have probably always been better armed. Since the Cole & 9/11, NATO navies have gone back to fitting their major combatants out with sub-20mm weapons to deal with the asymmetric threat.

    NS ships have a good weapons fit
    76mm OTO or 57mm Bofors
    20mm Rheinmetall & 12.7mm HMG
    7.62mm GPMG

    Possible weapons fit include RBS70, which has an anti-surface capability & chain guns. Both systems could be easily fitted.


    With regard to crewing levels, once all the bunks onboard are full, then NS ships have sufficient bodies to maintain a ship at defence stations (6 on 6 off) for a set period. Other navies have stated that up to 6-7 days & ship will still function effectively. This is the same no matter what size ship (PC, FFG, DDG). SSBN's have always worked a 6 on 6 off watch system (to digress slightly!) & NS ships do operate at this level regularly.

    NS ships are built to similar specs as other warships, that is, NATO warships do not have any extra ballistic protection against asymmetric threats. DCFF capabilites are similar.

    As goldie also specified, the NS is one of the most capable RIB operators in western navies, carried out day in day out in severe weather conditions.

    Rough weather off Somalia?! This country is situated from 0 - 15 degrees north. The average number of gales per annum could probably be counted on one hand, compare this to Ireland.

    Logsitics? Maybe a problem, but Djibouti is very close by & HPV's & LPV's have very long legs!

    And the NS has carried out similar ops before in an environment with a high risk of asymmetric threat... Liberia. Before any blue helmets from Ireland were there, NIAMH was there with the recce team.


    L.É. NIAMH heading to Liberia in October 2003 with DF Recce Mission, prior to the deployment of the Irish QRF.

    The question is political will (& army will!) This question has already been answered... unfortunately.
    Last edited by Dogwatch; 12th October 2008 at 18:05.

  13. #88
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    A former colleague once told me about the routine on an RN carrier in the Adriatic during the Balkans unpleasantness.Once the ship had passed a point on it's way up the Adriatic, the ship went to a battle routine of 7,5,5,7 and stayed that way until it came off station,which was about six weeks at a time.He said that one quickly lost all sense of time and became reliant on the tannoy calling out the change of watchs.He said that it took a few days to adjust to more normal hours once off the battle routine.
    regards
    GttC

  14. #89
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    In summary, it's what the navy do.... if they are let. The LPV was based on a class initially designed to operate in the Waters of the Indian ocean.

  15. #90
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    So the bottom line is that Willie wasn't very well advised when he said that Ireland does not have the "maritime capacity" to participate in the Somalia anti-pirate mission?

  16. #91
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    The question is... who advised him? DFHQ or NHQ? Seems to me like the Army want to keep this overseas lark to themselves.

  17. #92
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    IMHO the NS are well capable of doing the job.All the skills required are there.

    They have worked at all the roles required in this area for years and have perfected it to such a degree that they should be prime candidates for such a mission.

    The logistical situation to a degree is not to unlike being able to do a three weeker away from Haulbowline..so big mystery there.

    Ships have the endurance and if other people such as the ARW wanted to hone certain skills with this type of operation they are not adverse or unfamilar with working with the NS.

    So now...if there were to be a mandate presented to the government on the issue..why not?

    The only slight problem I see and looking at the big picture of having ships so far away from home , reducing assets in home waters, do the NS want such a tasking?

    Does the age of the older PVs stop the newer ships being deployed away from home for long periods in case of unforseen problems.

    Not questioning the reliabilty of the PVs just considering some factors that might be holding the higher ups in the NS from selling the case.

    If the OPV replacements were to come on line as planned within the next couple of years and the overall age profile of the fleet reduced would the NS be in a better position to offer itself for such missions?

    Certainly worth thinking about.
    Just visiting

  18. #93
    Colonel johnny no stars's Avatar
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    Perhaps it would, strictly speaking, be possible, however, would leave the NS spread too thinly?
    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

  19. #94
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Perhaps it would, strictly speaking, be possible, however, would leave the NS spread too thinly?
    My sentiments exactly and wondering if the higher ups in the NS have the same reservatyions.
    Just visiting

  20. #95
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    Pirate dies in Somali shoot-out

    BOSASSO, Somalia - Security forces from northern Somalia killed a pirate and wounded two others during a shoot-out with hijackers aboard a Panama-flagged ship yesterday. One soldier was killed.

    Coastguard personnel exchanged fire with pirates on the ship, which was seized on Thursday. - (Reuters)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...680464973.html
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead

  21. #96
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    My sentiments exactly and wondering if the higher ups in the NS have the same reservatyions.
    To my knowledge, no.

  22. #97
    CQMS Dogwatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny no stars View Post
    Perhaps it would, strictly speaking, be possible, however, would leave the NS spread too thinly?
    Not to consider such missions due to FP commitments would be a bit rich! But who knows!

    Photos of the pirate boats alongside MV Faina, taken by USS Howard (DDG-83) & USS Vella Gulf (CG-72)



    The commanding officer of a U.S. Navy guided-missile cruiser monitors the pirated motor vessel (M/V) Faina off the coast of Somalia while one of his helicopters provides aerial surveillance.


    Somali pirates in small boats were able to hijack the MV Faina, a Belize-flagged cargo ship owned and operated by "Kaalbye Shipping Ukraine." The ship is carrying a cargo of Ukrainian T-72 tanks and related equipment. It had no on board security when it was attacked on Sept. 28 and was forced to proceed to an anchorage off the Somali Coast. (U.S. Navy photo/Released)


    USS Howard DDG-83


    USS vella Gulf (CG-72)

    The other question now is... who provided security to the ship carrying the Irish equipment for Chad to Cameroon??!!

    MV Zeran
    Last edited by Dogwatch; 14th October 2008 at 09:21.

  23. #98
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    They weren't passing through Piracy infected waters, and there was a military party aboard with the vehicles.

  24. #99
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    There is piracy in West Africa - sometimes state sponsored. Of course, one can avoid hot spots by going further out to sea, but this has cost (and safety) implications.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead

  25. #100
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    L.E. Niamh did have a special anti Piracy watch closed up when they were passing the horn of africa, and the south China seas, on the way to Hong Kong.

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