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  1. #51
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    In fact Eithne was supposed to embark on a similar mission but it was pulled at short notice.
    No doubt the 'experten' will question this, but those with an eye for detail will know what to look for to prove it!
    Just visiting

  2. #52
    CQMS Dogwatch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    The ballistic qualities of the 57mm Bofors and the 76mm Oto Melara are comparable. In fact Eithne was supposed to embark on a similar mission but it was pulled at short notice.
    Have to disagree, 76mm is a much bigger round & the weapon has a far greater range. 57m is a peashooter in comparison.
    P31 was never considered for the recce mission prior to deployment of the Bn. She was kitted up for the first of what was supposed to be many resupply missions after the Bn deployed. Didn't happen as air charter was the chosen path for resupply (to have an aircraft capable of taking personnel back to ireland on leave!) But yeah, we're diverging rapidly from IAC heritage AC!

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  4. #53
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    I was on Eithne for a patrol in early 1994. Spent ages loitering in the Irish Sea waiting for the helo to get its act together and leave Baldonnel. D244 (edit) arrives with support crew. Glum faces all around. They stayed for two days and one night. Night was calm. On second day the weather deteriorated. Head flyboy said that they were off home. Ships captain ordered him to stick the helo in the hangar and wait it out aboard. Air Corpse dude complained of seasickness amongst his team the previous night. Skipper asked how they were going to get their sea legs if they pissed off anytime the going got a little tough. Flyboy went over his head to baldonnel who pulled the bird. Donners pile aboard with a full allocation of bond each. Big smiles all around as they load up. Chopper can barely take off with the weight of all the duty-free beer, spirits and fags. No helo for remainder of patrol.

    Just my little anecdote.
    Last edited by Sluggie; 20th February 2013 at 08:59.

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  6. #54
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    A firehose won't cut it with aviation fuel.

    Think foam...and foam making 'branches'....think liquid fires...forget about the aviation word.....Jet A 1 is a wide cut diesel..try burn diesel.

    Avgas on the other hand is petrol...with additives to prevent freezing...and burns and about 400ft per second and will ignite at minus 40 degrees if it hasn't frozen first.....hence the lack of piston engined aircraft on ships..its vapour being the problem....any ways...

    The aircraft painted to represent an AC chippy got burned recently.....unburnt fuel got ignited by exhaust...something to do with how the carb is set up and set fire to the leading edge of the wing!....could have been worse!
    Just visiting

  7. #55
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Chopper can barely take off with the weight of all the duty-free beer, spirits and fags.
    Should have with held the bond until the end of a useful excercise!. Normally bond was opened on 1st night out for Ships crew....

    If some one had read them ships standing orders around bond they would have realised that you legally only take 40 cigarettes ashore and one of those packets had to be opened...FACT.. I read them one night when I was bored while on QM!
    Just visiting

  8. #56
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggie View Post
    I was on Eithne for a patrol in early 1994. Spent ages loitering in the Irish Sea waiting for the helo to get its act together and leave Baldonnel. D252 arrives with support crew. Glum faces all around. The stayed for two days and one night. Night was calm. On second day the weather deteriorated. Head flyboy said that they were off home. Ships captain ordered him to stick the helo in the hangar and wait it out aboard. Air Corpse dude complained of seasickness amongst his team the previous night. Skipper asked how they were going to get their sea legs if they pissed off anytime the going got a little tough. Flyboy went over his head to baldonnel who pulled the bird. Donners pile aboard with a full allocation of bond each. Big smiles all around as they load up. Chopper can barely take off with the weight of all the duty-free beer, spirits and fags. No helo for remainder of patrol.

    Just my little anecdote.
    It was either Dh244 or 245. There was no Dh 252.

    To be fair, it probably isn't the best idea to be landing and taking off from a ships deck with a case of the wobbles. Crew Fatigue would be a huge safety issue, as we were to find out later (R.I.P). But it goes back to the notion that naval aircraft should have naval crews.

  9. #57
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    'Delta Hotel' ( To identify it as a Dauphin Helicopter! )was the prefix used in the call sign used when operating with the ship, you are however correct about the numbers 244 and 245 were Sa365Fis where as 252 is a Casa
    Just visiting

  10. #58
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    Mea culpa. It was 244.

  11. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    The ballistic qualities of the 57mm Bofors and the 76mm Oto Melara are comparable. In fact Eithne was supposed to embark on a similar mission but it was pulled at short notice.
    The 76mm gun fires a lot more powerful HE rounds, has a much greater range and is more accurate.
    Eithne was to collect the ARWs Land Rovers when their mission ended but someone decided to fly them home.

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    No......OPVs are smaller than Eithne, they would have to be considerably larger to accommodate a hanger and flight deck.
    The Mauritius Coast Guard ship that the LPV hull design was based on is smaller than the LPVs and has a helicopter flight deck and hanger.

  12. #60
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post



    The Mauritius Coast Guard ship that the LPV hull design was based on is smaller than the LPVs and has a helicopter flight deck and hanger.
    Its hangar and deck was large enough to accomodate a single engine Alouette 3. The ship was never used operationally, and is currently rusting away in Port Louis.

    http://motors.mega.mu/news/2011/06/0...s-seeks-buyer/

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  14. #61
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    If the two naval helicopters were dedicated to naval roles only it would have had a better chance. As it was they were being dragged away on everything from SAR to MATS.

    There were advantages to having the Air Corps operate and maintain what was a small fleet of what were at the time some of the most advanced helicopters in the world. They were after all the first helicopters ANYWHERE delivered with a glass EFIS cockpit and FADEC. The Naval versions should have been crewed solely by naval personnel, even under the auspices of Air Corps training, administration and doctrines.

    Why a dedicated Naval Air unit was never formed is a still a matter of mystery. The splitting of assets may not have been desirable to the Air Corps brass but it may actually have made it easier to make a case to the Dept of Finance for an overall increase in fleet numbers.

    Regarding thread split, a separate thread under the rough heading of "The Demise of Naval Aviation" is definitely warranted. Lumping this discussion with one on the current location of ex IAC aircraft does neither subject justice.
    Whether or not this should be discussed in a military heritage and history context or as a a current topic when there is no movement on the horizon for the NS in the manned avaition sphere is a matter for the mods.
    Last edited by Jetjock; 20th February 2013 at 09:12.

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  16. #62
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    If it was a NS unit that operated the 2 Dauphins, it would have been a very small and specialist unit.

    While it may have made the aircraft more available to serve on Eithne (remember the 2nd one was purchased for the 2nd HPV), there would be problems:

    Who would do the currency & ratings checks on the aircrew? AC (who would then have to train on deck landings as well) or a senior NS flying officer

    While NS ground crew could probably do the daily and 50hr inspection. The 400/800/3200 hrs and 8 year inspections would require more personnel and equipment. At least 1 hanger would have been required in Haulbowline as well

  17. #63
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    There are already numerous specialised small units within the NS that require currency & ratings checks. These are small obstacles.
    Given that many of the bigger aircraft inspections are being carried out by external companies with some aircraft in the Air Corps already, this too is not a huge obstacle. Space for a hangar had already been allocated. It doesn't require a huge engineering project, given the other construction that took place in the Naval Base at the time.

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  19. #64
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    The Mauritius Coast Guard ship that the LPV hull design was based on is smaller than the LPVs and has a helicopter flight deck and hanger.
    Check the average sea states in comparrison to those on offer off the west coast of Ireland.

    If it was a NS unit that operated the 2 Dauphins, it would have been a very small and specialist unit.
    And? surely if we have an equitation unit nearly 100 years after the last cavalry charge , sailors could fly helos!

    Who would do the currency & ratings checks on the aircrew? AC (who would then have to train on deck landings as well
    Could as opposed to would, as it is the past, there were those interested within the Navy and indeed some who had experience from their RN days .If the incentives had been appropriate their possibly even been a couple of AC who would have 'jumped ship' so to speak.

    All the conjecture 30 years after the event is wasted as the euphoria around the thing in the Navy and in the Aer Corps was interested, but there were parties whose career paths did not enviage a blue suit or many sunsets at sea and saw their own assets been stripped had it worked, so it wasn't really in their interest.

    Also worthy of note on the Ac side that one of the guys involved in setting up the whole thing was driving BAC 111 s for Ryanair by 1989, and he was driving the bus full of pilots out of the Aer Corps on the day.

    Not only were the aer corps not going to give up shiny helos to jolly jack tar, it couldn't aford to lose more crews. I could name half of Ryanairs pilot list from the time...and their previous Aer Corps appointment....never mind the engineering branch who discovered they might even get paid to do the job in civy street.

    Its deeper than ships and helicopters.

    While NS ground crew could probably do the daily and 50hr inspection. The 400/800/3200 hrs and 8 year inspections would require more personnel and equipment. At least 1 hanger would have been required in Haulbowline as well
    Ever wonder how the Navy keep ships at sea?........they teach people, establish trades and do it themselves, how do they manage beyond this.. direct entries....there was no problem insurmountable other that ship /helo was not a complete navy run project.... never mind the fcukers in Army ordnance who got tied up in the weapons fit after the money was gone!
    Just visiting

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  21. #65
    Captain Jetjock's Avatar
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    Anyway...Back on topic...if anyone has a spare 200k and a can of dayglo orange paint lying about:

    For sale in California http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/...W/1590877.html

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  23. #66
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    that worn dayglo...it stayed shiny and new for about six months and then faded, with the result that you had quite a variation in tip tank colours in the line-up. Great aircraft to fly and a hoot to do aeros in. Lotto God, hear my prayers!

    regards
    GttC

  24. #67
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Interesting that they were sold still in their AC markings.

    The dayglo paint technically wasn't even a paint it was a coloured lacquer and its high visibility properties made it light sensitive and prone to fading.Early versions raised some health and safety issues giving reason to red paint being used on some aircraft such as the dauphins as opposed to Dayglo.
    Just visiting

  25. #68
    Captain Jetjock's Avatar
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    Dayglo seems to have been an IAC favourite down the years when many other air arms had discarded it for other high vis schemes with lower maintenance. A job lot of it must have been obtained on the cheap or fallen off the back off a lorry on the Naas road. As GTTC without maintenance it decays quickly. The questionable scheme in which the first Alouettes arrived quickly became quite shabby looking....



    Regarding the paint scheme Hpt, I would say removing it would actually hurt their value. Ex IAC aircraft are fairly rare in the warbird community. The only change from the colours in which they flew here is the addition of an undersize(by special warbird dispensation from the FAA) US registration on the vertical stabilizer..


    Former 226, now N224AP.

    Gttc, if the Lotto gods ever smile in this direction I'd be happy to do a maintenance/flying hours trade off with you!

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  27. #69
    Captain Jetjock's Avatar
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    Interesting update on ex IAC Vampire 185 at the Musee de Chateau du Savigny. You dont need to be a French speaker to get the basic idea of her story since leaving Baldonnel in a C-160 Transall in 1978.


    The pictures in this link tell the story. They are dated 1985, 2007 and 2011.

    http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/lis...pret&Itemid=56

    Absolutely fantastic to see an ex IAC aircraft stored under cover and looking in relatively good shape.

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  29. #70
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Isn't there a story about the Allouette's dayglo paint when they were delivered?

  30. #71
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Yeah, someone in the Air Corps coloured in with orange felt tip pen the panels they wanted, and wrote the word "Dayglo" next to them. When the finished item was first seen the french expressed their concern that they spent hours trying to get an exact colour match to what was on the drawings provided, and this was the best they could do.

  31. #72
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    Trite but nor true. International Orange, to use it's official name, is the standard colour for training aircraft worldwide and was also applicable to aircraft engaged in SAR, ie, to define clearly to onlookers that the aircraft is not engaged in a warlike role. It didn't persist on the Alouettes because they were used for carrying armed troops on operations, ie, guarding the Border, as well as being used for Type training. Other countries use their trainers as combat aircraft first (officially assigned a war role in a squadron) and trainers (in peacetime) second and don't apply dayglo. It's also the same standard colour for windsocks and SAR/lifesaving equipment. When on aircraft, it should be applied on a white coat of paint to aid reflectivity and durability, which has not always been the case.

    regards
    GttC

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  33. #73
    Captain Jetjock's Avatar
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    Gttc,

    In the above photo of 226 I notice a non flush fairing on the upper empennage above the roundel and attached to the lower vertical stabiliser. What's the reason for it? I see some SF260 with it and some without. It looks like an after thought. Just curious.

  34. #74
    Closed Account Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Trite but nor true. International Orange, to use it's official name, is the standard colour for training aircraft worldwide and was also applicable to aircraft engaged in SAR, ie, to define clearly to onlookers that the aircraft is not engaged in a warlike role. It didn't persist on the Alouettes because they were used for carrying armed troops on operations, ie, guarding the Border, as well as being used for Type training. Other countries use their trainers as combat aircraft first (officially assigned a war role in a squadron) and trainers (in peacetime) second and don't apply dayglo. It's also the same standard colour for windsocks and SAR/lifesaving equipment. When on aircraft, it should be applied on a white coat of paint to aid reflectivity and durability, which has not always been the case.

    regards
    GttC
    Thats not what a view from the tower said.

  35. #75
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    Hi all,
    The French have had Dayglo (which is a trade name for marker pen ink or such like)/International Orange (which is it's genuine name, even on the tins in the paint shop) on their aircraft for years, so painting it on an Alouette would not have been an issue for a company manufacturing hundreds of aircraft annually. Initially, A IIIs were painted Henry Ford style, ie, any colour you like as long as it was grey. Air Corps painting schemes and drawings of same were a bit haphazard for years and it wasn't unusual to find errors across a type. When I worked on the Marchettis, it wasn't unusual to have differing shades of green and mistakes in the stencilling. Panels also got mixed up between aircraft, so it wasn't unusual to find colour errors and have to rejoin the panel to it's original owner.
    JJ, the bump was either for a remote reading master compass or a flux capacitor for a DI (which may also have been in the wing, I forget). There was also an Army whip aerial fitted thereabouts on the Marchettis. Claudel Hobson will give you exact details.

    regards
    GttC

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