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  • If fix wing ops where to be used what type of aircraft would be used or would a new type be purchased. Also would operational command be given to the Naval Service for these aircraft. I still think a search of the world market to find some quality second hand naval helo's should be undertaken. There are some real bargins out there, just look at the RNZN who purchased Seasprites from the USA

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    • The RNZN bought new seasprites. The Australians, as mentioned elsewhere, bought second hand, with disasterous results. There is already a fixed wing type in service here. Look it up.


      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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      • I wouldn't go so far as Aaron did and call the kiwi Seasprites bargains. The full contract price for the original four RNZN Kaman SH-2G's was NZ$275m in 1997, with a fifth bought in 1999 - thats NZ$68m a piece. Naval choppers are not cheap to buy and operate!

        The NZ OPV's have a hanger and flight deck which can take a Seasprite and will accommodate the new LUH also. But it is all risk assessment and mission specific - ie; where are we going, what are we doing, how are we going to do it? Into the Southern Ocean on Fishery patrols trying to land a chopper on a small OPV deck in marginal conditions is dodgy (you could read into that Northern Atlantic if you wish). Into the Pacific on small nation support missions and less disruptive weather, then deploying a helo is useful and prudent. Thus, it is envisaged that helo's wont embark that often on the OPV's. Around the 200nm EEZ and Southern Ocean an OPV will be working with an RNZAF P3-C Orion anyway - and dont really need to deploy a chopper (Around Ireland's EEZ with a CN-235 overhead, likewise).

        With a MRV its somewhat different. Having a helicopter deployed helps put the 'Multi' into a MRV and it is of course a far larger and longer range vessel. So in my view if Ireland is going to get back into the Naval Helicopter game again, it should deploy a dedicated Naval helicopter on its future MRV - and it should be something like a NFH-90 - a true multi-role aircraft - one the can support both the maritime and army tasks. As for dedicated deployment on OPV's - it can be done, but does the justification in terms of Irish Defence outputs warrant the expensive outlay. Wouldn't it be better to buy more AW139s for the Air Corps or another couple of CN-235 MPA?

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        • Difference being that the Seasprite is/was a very capable anti submarine helo.We do not need that capability..

          I don't think the NS will have any say in any future procurements unless they have the day to day command and running of them ..so for the time being the casa 235 carries out Maritime reconnasance role.
          I've never heard a desparaging remark about the aircraft so I assume the AC is happy with them and might repeat the purchase in the future,
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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          • Yep, Maverick armed ASW Seasprites would just be pointless unless there was a major defence policy shift and the NS required frigates. Not likely to happen at present.

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            • Came across this,



              Apparently the Royal Navy's Merlin can be launched and recovered from a Type 23 frigate in conditions of up to Sea State 6 with 50 knot winds from any direction. (Sea State 6 is described as "very rough", with significant wave heights of up to 6 metres.)

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              • Big Heli, Big deck, thats why. Type 42 Helidecks had to be lengthened to accept them and even at that, its a tight squeeze to get them back on.

                Oh. I have been out on a small cargo ship in the North sea in a six. We used to call it "Choppy"
                Last edited by Goldie fish; 13 May 2007, 05:50.


                Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                Comment


                • Sea state six can be achieve with a light wind...choppy is one way of describing it...not particularly rough. I would have expected a higher sea state to revent flight ops.Thats a very low thresh hold.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                  Comment


                  • rough seas and storm force winds

                    This is the World Meteorological Organisation's Sea State code:

                    Code Description Height (metres)
                    0 Calm (glassy) 0
                    1 Calm (rippled) 0 - 0.1
                    2 Smooth (wavelets) 0.1 - 0.5
                    3 Slight 0.5 - 1.25
                    4 Moderate 1.25 - 2.5
                    5 Rough 2.5 - 4
                    6 Very rough 4 - 6
                    7 High 6 - 9
                    8 Very high 9 - 14
                    9 Phenomenal Over 14

                    A sea state 6 means a significant wave height of up to 6 metres, almost 20 feet. Not to be confused with the Beaufort Scale of Wind. The 50 knot threshold is a Force 10, or storm force wind.

                    As a matter of interest, what are the operating limits for the deployment of Naval Service RIBs?

                    Comment


                    • Carrington, as a matter of interest, did you ever teach your granny how to suck eggs?


                      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                      Comment


                      • i have been converted by our wiser members (Mr. murp and Mr. Fish) helis on OPV in high sea is not the way to go UAV's and more CASA's are. However i would agree with Te Kaha that the new MRV should operate the NH-90 maybe this is were Naval Heli op's lie. big ship big heli.

                        Comment


                        • hi Murph
                          I've got a whole collection of disparaging remarks about the Casa! Here's a sample from the early days.....self-stripping paint(not a very useful feature on any aircraft), para door that decided to try and detach itself in flight and nearly wrecked the aircraft, allegedly-easily-removed mission module (supposed one-hour change-round time a statement of utter balls); dreadful sealing of upper surface panels resulting in very serious ingress of water, resulting in flight with at least 200lbs of water in underfloor and regular soaking of radar(especially unwanted on a Maritime aircraft!); very tiresome electric/electronic failures; regular failure of FLIR ball and related camera equipment and more besides. they might be mature now but they were a right pain when they started....never ever buy the Mark 1 of anything!
                          regards
                          GttC

                          Comment


                          • choppy??

                            Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                            Carrington, as a matter of interest, did you ever teach your granny how to suck eggs?
                            No, and I wouldn't call 20 foot waves 'choppy' either.

                            My point is that most navies seem to be able to operate helicopters - and they're usually much smaller than a Merlin - from ships in rough weather. Why can't we?

                            Comment


                            • Thanks for that...these are the things that the manufacturers forget to mention in the sales brochure.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment


                              • Just looking at some info. on the New Zealand OPVs, which are of course essentially the same design as Niamh and Róisín, but with helicopter decks and hangars. Apparently their boarding RIBs can only be launched up to sea state 4. Maybe the boarding crews can use the helicopter when it's too rough for the RIB?

                                Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                                Sea state six can be achieve with a light wind...choppy is one way of describing it...not particularly rough. I would have expected a higher sea state to revent flight ops.Thats a very low thresh hold.
                                But isn't RIB boarding craft deployment restricted to lower sea states? The RN's River class vessels, for example, can only launch and recover RIBs in wave conditions up to Sea State 5.
                                Last edited by Goldie fish; 14 May 2007, 00:25.

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