Thanks Thanks:  30
Likes Likes:  122
Dislikes Dislikes:  4

View Poll Results: What is the future for Naval Aircraft In Ireland?

Voters
123. You may not vote on this poll
  • Continue Naval Air Ops with a new Air Corps heli

    19 15.45%
  • Continue Naval Air Ops with New Naval services operated Helis

    66 53.66%
  • Continue with Helideck only on certain ships

    17 13.82%
  • Give up on the whole idea..the CASA does the job fine!

    21 17.07%
Page 12 of 13 FirstFirst ... 210111213 LastLast
Results 276 to 300 of 306
  1. #276
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Metropolis
    Posts
    3,146
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    Incorrect, none of them have a Flight Deck.
    Only HMS Clyde has the flight deck, the first three (Tyne, Severn and Mersey) don't.
    Point taken, clyde is still a fisheries protection vessel though no? That's really the point I was trying to make.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  2. #277
    C/S Galloglass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    388
    Post Thanks / Like
    I think the NS should aim at becoming a world leader in the use and development of unmanned aircraft and sail technology (which I thought was in train at present) There is the possibility of creating a manufacturing base (jobs) in a niche area like this which would benefit the country as a whole. I'd be happy with a couple more P60's and then a HPV or two with landing facillities and trained deckcrew. There is no need for helicopters on routine patrols. The Coastguard helis should be allocated back to the military.....An expensive ideological PRIVATIZATION exercise and nothing else.

  3. #278
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,931
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    Point taken, clyde is still a fisheries protection vessel though no? That's really the point I was trying to make.
    not really, she's an OPV (in the true sense of the term), one of who's duties is FP - backing up the FIG FP vessels - but she's also doing roles which would broadly equate to anti-smuggling, counter-terrorism, sovereignty, SAR, and support (logistical, flying, fire etc..) for land forces.

    which looks rather a lot to me like the list of tasks the NS has, its just that people fixate on the FP role.

  4. Likes CTU liked this post
  5. #279
    Lt General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,821
    Post Thanks / Like
    Clyde is far more than fisheries. She is the Falklands Island patrol ship. She is the naval presence in the islands, and will be the first line of defence should the Argies decide to have another go. She can deploy a marine detachment. In 1982 Endurance and her detachment kept the Junta Navy guessing for a while as they hid behind the islands, and carried out numerous attacks while waiting for the big guns to arrive. She replaced the Castle class which could land a sea king on its helideck.
    Their biggest weakness, which is impossible to understand is their inadequate armament. The Castle class had 1 BMARK 30mm cannon and 4 GPMG, while Clyde only has a 30mm Bushmaster, 2 miniguns and 5 GPMGs.
    A OTO Melara 76mm would not take up much more space.

  6. Likes DeV, CTU liked this post
  7. #280
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,931
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    ...Their biggest weakness, which is impossible to understand is their inadequate armament. The Castle class had 1 BMARK 30mm cannon and 4 GPMG, while Clyde only has a 30mm Bushmaster, 2 miniguns and 5 GPMGs.
    A OTO Melara 76mm would not take up much more space.
    dunno, its worth remembering that Clyde is part of a package - a package that certainly involves a very long ranged airsearch aradars and 'communications equipment', a handful of tooled-up Typhoon fighters flying at warp speed, possibly/probably includes a dirty great SSN, and depending on circumstance either a T23 or T45 - unless you turned her into a FFG with anti-ship, AAW and ASW capability she's not going to start brassing up an oncoming invasion fleet, even with a 76mm, because she'd get blown out of the water for no effect.

    would a T23/T45 be preferable? yes, it would mean never having to worry about Clyde being outgunned, however given the current/foreseeable threat, and the wider UK assets and intelligence gatering capabilities in place to mitigate that and future threats, Clyde is within the parameters of 'appropriate' for the task/environment.

  8. #281
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    dublin
    Posts
    1,324
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Might be worthwhile comparing these achievements to the AC..
    Interesting point about comparing NS productivity, resourcefulness and VFM to that of AC.

    Seems to be a common point that is raising across a number of threads on the forum at the minute, and one which I've commented on in a thread myself.

    Seems to be the AC is more and more looking like the weak link in any of the services moving forward with any type of combined ops.
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

  9. Likes ropebag liked this post
  10. #282
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,931
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    ...Seems to be the AC is more and more looking like the weak link in any of the services moving forward with any type of combined ops.
    tbh, seeing the job the NS is doing in the Med from the outside (and recalling that before this job came up the NS were on the brink of going to the EU Indian Ocean counter-piracy job), and contrasting that to the 'not doing that' attitude we've seen from the AC despite the very expensive assets they've been given, if i were the AC headshed i'd be checking the 'situations vacant' page in the local rag. more importantly, i can't believe that this hasn't been noticed by the politicians, and that they haven't drawn conclusions about the future viability/utility of the various forces...


    the word contractorisation leaps to mind.

  11. #283
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    3,923
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    tbh, seeing the job the NS is doing in the Med from the outside (and recalling that before this job came up the NS were on the brink of going to the EU Indian Ocean counter-piracy job), and contrasting that to the 'not doing that' attitude we've seen from the AC despite the very expensive assets they've been given, if i were the AC headshed i'd be checking the 'situations vacant' page in the local rag. more importantly, i can't believe that this hasn't been noticed by the politicians, and that they haven't drawn conclusions about the future viability/utility of the various forces...


    the word contractorisation leaps to mind.
    I agree with you. The NS has stepped up, and appears to have been chomping at the bit to get involved, while the AC seem to be happy to remain a mostly ministerial taxi and air ambulance service. Piss or get off the pot time.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  12. Likes ropebag liked this post
  13. #284
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Metropolis
    Posts
    3,146
    Post Thanks / Like
    interesting comments over on defence forces ex members etc page:

    one person commented saying we had no naval heli operable vessels anymore, another guy (ex AC) said that Eithne has a heli deck, original poster tells him its not been used in this manner in a long time and has a rib cradle and crane on the landing pad and therefore cannot take helis any more. AC guy then asks why we stopped using helis on eithne, original poster writes this:
    My understanding of it is that factors such as cooperation/understanding of navy requirements, between aircorps of the time and naval service of the time was difficult to maintain as the helis were never really permanently deployed on the vessel, only 2 of the five aircraft were navalised versions and other civi roles of the time meant they had limited availability also casa maritime patrol aircraft were purchased and we didn't replace the dauphin with a comparably sized navalised heli. The choice of heli she could operate was limited as the deck is only rated for a 5 tons. Ultimately the navy needs is own naval squadron and pilots seperate from the aircorps or a new redefined working relationship with todays AC.
    AC guy then responds with this honest comment:
    It was definitely a reason I left. I remember thinking that I didn't join the Air Corps to spend 3 weeks at a time 200 miles out in the Atlantic. My 9 years were coming up, wedding plans well on the way. So a cushy civvy job looked more appealing!
    more reason than ever to have naval air assets, based on or near the naval base with naval maintenance naval armorers and naval flyers.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  14. Likes Turkey liked this post
  15. #285
    Lt General
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,821
    Post Thanks / Like
    That was always the better idea, but the flying club had better ideas. Same thing happened with SAR. Only when it was taken from them and given to a prvate company (at huge expense) did they sit up and realise what could have been, cue former senior AC officer coming out of the woodwork and saying "The Air Corpse coulda woulda shoulda".

  16. #286
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,896
    Post Thanks / Like
    To defend it AC (negative):
    Pilot exodus!! (Pilot retention system now gone)
    Promotion and Recruiting ban
    Flying hours cut
    Look what 3 AAIU reports have shown

    (positive):
    CASA top cover
    EAS !!

  17. #287
    C/S
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    328
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    To defend it AC (negative):
    Pilot exodus!! (Pilot retention system now gone)
    Promotion and Recruiting ban
    Flying hours cut
    Look what 3 AAIU reports have shown

    (positive):
    CASA top cover
    EAS !!
    Given similar constraints the Naval Service has done remarkably well.
    The EAS is a success but it is definitely a move away from a core military function and must be limiting on the availability of assets for other missions.
    Is the CASA available 24/7 for top cover?

  18. #288
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,896
    Post Thanks / Like
    Of course, but NS don't have to have type ratings on equipment, vessels etc.

    CASA isn't available 24/7 AFAIK but many here were complaining it was never available, regularly available now.
    Air ambulance is a White Paper tasking.

    It is apples and oranges, there are similarities and differences

  19. #289
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Metropolis
    Posts
    3,146
    Post Thanks / Like
    How come Casa isnt available 24 hrs?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  20. #290
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,896
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    How come Casa isnt available 24 hrs?
    See post 247

    Also it isn't a declared asset so no requirement on AC to make sure it's available

    Ask the Government!

  21. Thanks morpheus thanked for this post
    Likes morpheus liked this post
  22. #291
    C/S
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    328
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    See post 247

    Also it isn't a declared asset so no requirement on AC to make sure it's available

    Ask the Government!
    So by not having it as a declared asset the pressure is off!! Hardly a huge achievement for aircraft that have been in service 20 years.

  23. Likes ropebag liked this post
  24. #292
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    dublin
    Posts
    1,324
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    (positive):CASA top cover EAS !!
    not a lot of positives considering the number and types of aircraft in use and the potential all of them have to be used much more extensively and over a wider range of roles.

    EAS is also a pilot project and the final report could very well go the way of the SAR and suggest a different entity provide airframes for the medical crew. I'm sure NAS would love the glory of operating their own machines completely under their own remit!
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

  25. #293
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,676
    Post Thanks / Like
    The pilot retention thing was a scam. Paying people (including several individuals who may have been pilots but had long since stopped flying for various reasons) to stay doing what they were already paid generously to do anyway,on the basis that they might go to the airlines,while the place shed techs like rainwater,who were offered no such retention money to stay. I recall one captain stating that techs who left were just "disgruntled exers". Did he ever wonder why??!! As for the whole SAR thing, several of the pilots,including SAR pilots who should have known better, blamed the winch ops men for the loss of SAR. As for the boat, the Donners didn't want it from day 1 and hated being on the ship, which was not helped by the attitudes of some of the NS personnel, some of whom went out of their way to be unpleasant. The Dauphins were too heavy, too finicky and were insufficiently proven when we got them and were in effect, testbeds for whatever Aerospatiale wanted.The Don was going to lose, no matter what. The NS should have had their own independent air arm, to include fixed-wing aircraft.

  26. Thanks Turkey thanked for this post
    Likes Turkey liked this post
  27. #294
    Private 3*
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    41
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    How come Casa isnt available 24 hrs?
    Also various hold ups with the defence logistical system in speedy ordering of spares and paying for said spares/outside maintenance

  28. #295
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,896
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    not a lot of positives considering the number and types of aircraft in use and the potential all of them have to be used much more extensively and over a wider range of roles.

    EAS is also a pilot project and the final report could very well go the way of the SAR and suggest a different entity provide airframes for the medical crew. I'm sure NAS would love the glory of operating their own machines completely under their own remit!
    Those were just 2 quick off the top of head examples (another one would have been the work on Skellig).... There are others

    I have no connection with the AC apart from having an interest and being a member of the RDF, so I don't have a vested interest, save that as a taxpayer I want a resourced tasked AC that provides excellent VFM.

    There are over 880 people (those who have been helped) who I'm sure with disagree! The EAS has successfully proven (very cost effectively) that such a service is required and there is demand (proving what a number of reports have said.



    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    So by not having it as a declared asset the pressure is off!! Hardly a huge achievement for aircraft that have been in service 20 years.
    Ask Government!! The AC can only do as tasked (but they should volunteer at the same time!)

    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The pilot retention thing was a scam. Paying people (including several individuals who may have been pilots but had long since stopped flying for various reasons) to stay doing what they were already paid generously to do anyway,on the basis that they might go to the airlines,while the place shed techs like rainwater,who were offered no such retention money to stay.
    Who has more pull?
    It still helped bring wages up towards market rates. But people obviously worked the system (and techs probably should have got something too).



    The thing about the DF is (it has changed in someways), if a commercial organisation isn't using something they look at it as costing money, if the DF isn't using it the Government looks at it as saving money.

  29. #296
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,931
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Ask Government!! The AC can only do as tasked (but they should volunteer at the same time!)...
    the problem with this argument, or more correctly the logic behind it, is that the AC is conspicuous by its absence in the increase in the tempo/difficulty of its roles that both the Army and NS have very obviously undergone in the last decade.

    Chad would been unthinkable in the 1990's, as would the NS's current Med operation. moreover the AC could reasonably be said to have had the lions share of investment - would that either the Army or the NS could say that their oldest peice of major equipment was 20 years old...

    so, either successive governments of all flavours have had a wierd hang-up about pouring money into the AC but refusing - much to the howls of protest of the AC hierarchy - to let it be used to its potential, or the AC have a very different ethic to the other two services and that it keeps its head down when the other services are saying 'we can do this', and if asked 'can you do this?' comes out with an arm-long list of insurmountable problems.

    anyone want to put a €5 bet on which one is true..?

  30. #297
    Sergeant Major
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    992
    Post Thanks / Like
    There is an exodus of enlisted techs at the moment too

  31. #298
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    21,896
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    the problem with this argument, or more correctly the logic behind it, is that the AC is conspicuous by its absence in the increase in the tempo/difficulty of its roles that both the Army and NS have very obviously undergone in the last decade.

    Chad would been unthinkable in the 1990's, as would the NS's current Med operation. moreover the AC could reasonably be said to have had the lions share of investment - would that either the Army or the NS could say that their oldest peice of major equipment was 20 years old...

    so, either successive governments of all flavours have had a wierd hang-up about pouring money into the AC but refusing - much to the howls of protest of the AC hierarchy - to let it be used to its potential, or the AC have a very different ethic to the other two services and that it keeps its head down when the other services are saying 'we can do this', and if asked 'can you do this?' comes out with an arm-long list of insurmountable problems.

    anyone want to put a €5 bet on which one is true..?
    I agree but AC bashing seems to be popular there is huge room for improve but:

    The heaviest thing I every saw underslung on a AC helo was a 120 under a Puma, other than that it was a bail under an Alouette but now the AW139s are carrying Bambi buckets, 105s and Inf bridges. The same aircraft is firing GPMGs off the side of it in the Glen

    2002 there was 81 air ambulance missions, in 2013 there was 102 air ambulance missions plus 411 EAS missions. Credit where it's due as each one would have made a real difference to someone.


    Again it's far from perfect but it's unfair to say they have done nothing.

  32. Thanks Turkey thanked for this post
    Likes Galloglass, morpheus liked this post
  33. #299
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,672
    Post Thanks / Like
    As for the boat, the Donners didn't want it from day 1 and hated being on the ship, which was not helped by the attitudes of some of the NS personnel, some of whom went out of their way to be unpleasant.
    Have to say , while we didn't mix much when they joined I was always quite civil and found those who came with us to be a little out of their element, which can often come across badly and probably prompted reaction.
    Some of the corporals had issues as they messed with lower rates on ship where they felt they should be messing with sergeants, which wasn't a option.

    There were issues like this that did create conflict and got peoples back up.

    Ships are a strange place for those unused to them. If the crews and techies had remained a constant maybe relations might have improved but to many faces and unfamiliarity brings their own problems especially among a tightly knit crew.

    Crews have a tendency to declare all those who do not stand watches as 'passengers' and can be resented for being so.
    Time for another break I think......

  34. Thanks Turkey thanked for this post
  35. #300
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,676
    Post Thanks / Like
    Murph, would you really put an untrained, non-sailor on a watch? To do what??!!........... Dev, pilots at the time were already well paid and, compared to Army Officers, had the highest rates of pay in the DF and had such luxuries as twice the leave days of enlisted personnel. They had a seriously priviliged existence and were regarded as milking it. Some of them got quite a culture shock when they went to the airlines and found that life was not rosy out in the real world, especially when they had to pay for things previously unpaid for. Such as real-world expenses like pilot medicals,license costs, training costs and all the mundane shit that goes with real life. Some of them got a serious eye-opener and actually wanted back in!

  36. Thanks DeV, hptmurphy, sofa thanked for this post
    Likes DeV, na grohmiti liked this post

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. The Falklands War diary, 25 years later.
    By Goldie fish in forum Military Heritage / History
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 30th September 2011, 16:09
  2. Dail Debates [Naval Vessels]
    By Kieran Marum in forum Navy & Naval Reserve
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: 30th May 2008, 09:25

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •