err.....Air Defence 2009

[thebig C]

I think the Czechs do operate both the Gripen and L159. Originally the combat version the L159 ALCA was used (72 ordered). However, due to budgetary reasons 47 ALCAs were mothballed. There is now an ongoing programme to convert the single seat ALCAs into 2 seat L159 T1 trainers. They are called this to differenciate from the production trainer the L159B, which doesn't have the same radar or weapons capability.

I think the Czechs will use these to phase out some L-39s which are still used. Also, they are being used as sort of a showcase as a more "multirole" L159.

They seem like a great little aircraft, but, I wonder are they hampered by the fact that the Czechs can't really compete when it comes to offering offsets???!! Afterall, good and all as the l39 was, and it was very good, would it have sold so many if it wasn't effectively subsidised by the Soviets?!

Personally, I would love to see them in the AC.....but sometimes the powers that be aren't great at thinking outside the box

[easyrider]

The problem with buying jet fighters is not just the cost of the actual aircraft, or even the cost of arming, maintaining and operating them, but the whole air defence infrastructure that would have to go with them to make them worthwhile: radars, comms, IT, command and control....

Priority for the Air Corps has to be transport aircraft, probably of the C-295 or C-27J type, plus developing an overseas deployment capability for the helicopters they have. After that, if they ever go for combat aircraft, close air support is probably the most useful and (relatively) cheap way to go, and armed helis would be the simplest first step. Not hideously expensive attack helis, but putting guns, rockets and/or missiles on helis such as the EC135/635.

[Jetjock]

The Grippen being your full on light weight operate from anywhere multirole light fighter whilst the L159 is an advanced training type aircraft?
Two different types and perhaps they felt they could get by with what existing trainers and the L159's were duplication at extra cost for not greatly enhanced capabilities?

The L159 is a single seat development of a two seat trainer, with an avionics bay where the second seat used to be. It is not a trainer but a light fighter. It's earlier relations were trainers.

[Turkey]

Jetjock, without getting into the forjets/against jets argument again......
Do you think the L159 ''A'' model[single seat] is a viable air defence asset or a waste of time and energy?

[spider]

Touched on before in a very old thread.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OV-10_Bronco

They are looking at placing into production an upgraded version.

Could this perform multi-tasks - cash escorts, photo recce, air ambulance, coastal patrol and COIN / Army Support ? Potentially solves the Cessna replacement problem.

Easier to justify than expensive jets. Ugly though.

[Fireplace]

Brazilian F-5. Upgraded with the Grifo-F radar, of which the L-159 Grifo-L is a variant.

[pilatus]

Jetjock, without getting into the forjets/against jets argument again......
Do you think the L159 ''A'' model[single seat] is a viable air defence asset or a waste of time and energy?

If used correctly then yes it could be a viable air defence asset.Whatever force is operating them were to keep a pair on station armed up with2sidewinders and 2amraams(yes the missile can be integrated with the grifo radar, as claimed by the manufacturer) and were to keep in touch with a ground based radar network , they would see the enemy coming and the amraams would be fired which would take up all the attackers attention trying to dodge or break the lock , which would allow the L159's to get into a good position to fire AIM-9's and when they are in that close it is down to who gets the first shot.

[pilatus]

The Gripen is an excellent aircraft and given our defence buying background with Sweden, an aircraft, I'm sure,would appeal to the Donners and the mandarins.Yes, I know, I'm walting...sorry
regards
GttC

According to defencenews.com sweden has a surplus of 116gripens give or take a few, of all variants, A right through to D.Im sure a batch could be bought or even leased for a reasonable amount, alot cheaper than even second hand F-16's, which is what the czechs and hungarians have done.Though given the downturn in the world economy it would be even cheaper to get them now as sales are at an all time low and Saab are desperate for customers.

[Jetjock]

Turkey, it would depend on the type of air defence.

In a 24 hr QRA role with two aircraft fuelled, armed and ready to go, it's speed would deem it unsuitable. However in a CAP role with aircraft in the air on station over a geographical point to defend an air exclusion zone(a summit for example) or an important piece of infrastructure it is well equipped to carry out that role quite efectively.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Or to go and operate from rough strips as a COIN aircraft, in support of Irish forces abroad.Six pylons, plenty of fuel, two sets of eyes, ideal for loitering with intent....
regards
GttC

[Goldie fish]

Perhaps its time some of the "jets" posts here be moved to this thread, where it's all been done before?

http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.ie/showthread.php?t=6522

[Jetjock]

I think the relevance of returning to the subject of the L159 from time to time lies in the fact that 72 of these aircraft were bought, 24 were retianed in service and the reaminder were put into storage almost immediately. 5-6 were selected for conversion back into two seat advanced lead in fighter trainers for the Gripen last year and now Bolivia are taking 5, leaving the remainder in storage getting cheaper by the day. The cost alone of maintaining 38 aircraft in storage would be something that the Czech government would I'm sure be delighted to offload. All airframes have a very small number of hours and are as new. They are ideal for a geographically small country like Ireland that doesn't have a history of large defence spending, providing a potent light fighter capability for tiny relative cost.
One small detail GTTC, only one set of eyes, the second cockpit is now an avionics bay, making the L159 a single seater.

[Fireplace]

Touched on before in a very old thread.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OV-10_Bronco

They are looking at placing into production an upgraded version.

Could this perform multi-tasks - cash escorts, photo recce, air ambulance, coastal patrol and COIN / Army Support ? Potentially solves the Cessna replacement problem.

Easier to justify than expensive jets. Ugly though.

Oh heck, they're a little bit too old. As are these IA-58 Pucaras. These are nicer looking though.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Do Pucaras have armour? Those Astazou engines are obsolete,too...those OV-10s are excellent mud-movers and their American pilots loved them.Regarding the Gripen, how could any nation have 115 surplus of them? If that is the case, then Sweden was sold a dummy by it's own people.
regards
GttC

[concussion]

Turkey, it would depend on the type of air defence.

In a 24 hr QRA role with two aircraft fuelled, armed and ready to go, it's speed would deem it unsuitable. However in a CAP role with aircraft in the air on station over a geographical point to defend an air exclusion zone(a summit for example) or an important piece of infrastructure it is well equipped to carry out that role quite efectively.

I think a medium range ground based missile system would be more effective, cheaper and easier than jets for point defence work.
However if these L159's were to be bought with the intention of also providing CAS (and capable of being deployed to support overseas missions) then having it double up for CAP mightn't be a bad idea. They'd be more effective operating away from rather than over the protected point but we don't really have the radar to support that