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  1. #6701
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    nobody wants to join the RDF anymore - most people dont even know it still exists. im disillusioned now because this has come around and im too old to apply - but then I ask myself - why promote anyone? theres literally f#*k all privates left to train, there are tiny recruitment classes and even then it take so long to actually get around to getting them in uniform that most will never complete training and will leave before completing 3 star - ive recently heard stories like
    600 applied
    200 interviewed
    150 were to do fitness test
    60 turned up
    40 passed
    how many intend to pop smoke?
    how many intend to go PDF?
    how many will be left by the time training starts?

    W H A T S

    T H E

    P O I N T ? ? ? ?

    Depends on your point of view I guess.

    Are you too old ? If you have a qualification the Army are happy with you can be mid 40's.


    As for what the purpose is as people drop off, its been that funnel all my RDF time. I can't stop people going PDF and I can't force them to the fitness test; so what.

    As for doing good work seek out places there is ALWAYS work to be done
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  2. #6702
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Depends on your point of view I guess.

    Are you too old ? If you have a qualification the Army are happy with you can be mid 40's.


    As for what the purpose is as people drop off, its been that funnel all my RDF time. I can't stop people going PDF and I can't force them to the fitness test; so what.

    As for doing good work seek out places there is ALWAYS work to be done
    I left in 2009 for a myriad of reasons some about the organisation, some with my own circumstances. 9 years later my own circumstances have leveled out ...I again have time on my hands and would welcome an opportunity go back and take part.....but I'm too old.

    But I reckon thats what needs to be targeted , persons who have come out the end of education , are on a career path and are looking for something different to do with their down time.

    But theres a lot of ground work getting out to meet these people to get them in, I always found that word of mouth was always the greatest recruitment tool. There is an untapped pool of talent out there that has yet to be properly targeted.

    The Old FCA image will have all but disappeared in a few years and maybe thats the time to relaunch the whole thing
    Time for another break I think......

  3. #6703
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    nobody wants to join the RDF anymore - most people dont even know it still exists. im disillusioned now because this has come around and im too old to apply - but then I ask myself - why promote anyone? theres literally f#*k all privates left to train, there are tiny recruitment classes and even then it take so long to actually get around to getting them in uniform that most will never complete training and will leave before completing 3 star - ive recently heard stories like
    600 applied
    200 interviewed
    150 were to do fitness test
    60 turned up
    40 passed
    how many intend to pop smoke?
    how many intend to go PDF?
    how many will be left by the time training starts?

    W H A T S

    T H E

    P O I N T ? ? ? ?
    Have you disproved your own point?

    People are looking to join

    Many are not getting through the process

    Some really have no interest, some aren’t medically fit, some aren’t physically fit, some we don’t want

    The important things are make the process quick, efficient, cost effective and user friendly.

    One example, Dublin Unit NSR recruits have to do their medical in Haulbowline while there is a MAP a 5 minute walk away

    That is equally for PDF and RDF

    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Depends on your point of view I guess.

    Are you too old ? If you have a qualification the Army are happy with you can be mid 40's.


    As for what the purpose is as people drop off, its been that funnel all my RDF time. I can't stop people going PDF and I can't force them to the fitness test; so what.

    As for doing good work seek out places there is ALWAYS work to be done
    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    I left in 2009 for a myriad of reasons some about the organisation, some with my own circumstances. 9 years later my own circumstances have leveled out ...I again have time on my hands and would welcome an opportunity go back and take part.....but I'm too old.

    But I reckon thats what needs to be targeted , persons who have come out the end of education , are on a career path and are looking for something different to do with their down time.

    But theres a lot of ground work getting out to meet these people to get them in, I always found that word of mouth was always the greatest recruitment tool. There is an untapped pool of talent out there that has yet to be properly targeted.

    The Old FCA image will have all but disappeared in a few years and maybe thats the time to relaunch the whole thing
    IMHO military.ie doesn’t tell you actually what the RDF is or what we do - some people therefore don’t actually know what they are applying to join

    Upper Age limits:
    General service army & AC - 25
    General service NS - 27
    Cadets - 27

    RDF - 35

    Who should we be targeting?

  4. #6704
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    There are as many officers General List as there are in appointment, a result of the Re-Org/Single Force Concept. Many of these officers when posted into appointments when they become available are then found to be ineffective.
    The AR officer corps is currently over strength on paper as far as I am aware. An effort must be made by unit commanders and respective GOC's to identify those in appointment and the General List who are in fact ineffective, inform them so and give notice that they may have their commission relinquished.
    Consolidate all appointments and the Gen List, (the AR will probably still have an excess of officers) and through mandatory relinquishment of commissions on age grounds and through request then the gaps can be filled by subsequent POC's. Then you'll have the young, effective RDF officer corps your man in the article was going on about. This will all take time though, so there really isn't a need for a POC in the time frame mentioned.

  5. #6705
    Recruit Poiuyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    theres literally f#*k all privates left to train, there are tiny recruitment classes and even then it take so long to actually get around to getting them in uniform that most will never complete training and will leave before completing 3 star
    BINGO

    There are 26 Lts in the RDF, that is 26 Platoons, or following a company structure, 6 1/2 Companies = roughly 600 Privates, 225 NCOs. Is there even that many people to train anymore?. You want to recruit officers in order to put them in charge of platoons and troops that don't even exist....and you think that that is a good thing? You think that they will stay when longer serving, more experienced officer haven't? And you are taking these officers out of the very limited reserve of privates that is there?

    I have to question who is not facing reality?


    These con job "Good Ideas" are exactly that - con jobs, designed to massage figures, make things look good and get in the way of the real problems.

    And so far I have tried to keep away from the personal insults. Again, I ask for the equivalent on your part.
    Last edited by Poiuyt; 10th September 2018 at 15:32.

  6. #6706
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Once again from the outside looking in; I wouldn’t worry about potential new entrants comparing the new organisation to the older FCA brand. The renaming took place well before any of them were even old enough to join. When I discuss the RDF with people, a good 95% plus of them don’t even know the Army Reserve and NSR exists. Awareness of the FCA is far more common and being honest, most people I’ve asked remember it (rightly or wrongly) as at best a club for playing army and at worst, a drinking club. All unfair assertions I believe but there is an element of truth there.

    The new fitness standards and proper recruitment process have definitely reduced the recruitment pool. I wasn’t in the reserve 10-15 years ago but most people I know who joined, did so for the craic of training for a summer or two, the money and the tax free beer. They had no interest in weekly parades or having a career in the reserves. I don’t think there is need of a relaunch as awareness is already on the floor and the organisation already has already gone through a reorginisation.
    Yes, there are less and less new recruits joining but at least they are being properly trained and if they do get through, at least you know they are likely to stay in the organisation for some time rather than turn into ghosts when they get bored with the organisation or get a bit older. It seems to me that the RDF has started moving from being a hobby organisation to being a proper reserve; a proper reserve that requires, time, commitment and sacrifice to be part of. There are recruitment issues yes, and I hear posters here reminiscing about full camps back in the day but surely having a far smaller organisation with a few (lot) of issues that needs ironing out is better than what went before. I think things seem to be moving in the right direction even though maybe not at the pace some of posters like but it does.

    I’m new to the RDF but I do have a previous relationship with the DF so I do have a comparison. My recent recruitment process did fall down in a few places but it was professional.
    - Online application.
    - Fitness tests only weeks after.
    - Fitness tests taken seriously and numerous fails. A good thing that the organisation is discerning.
    - Medical completed efficiently on the day. Actually more efficiently that a previous PDF experience.
    - Organisation of training was less efficient but that was more due to delays with medicals and garda clearance and the RDF were trying to drive things forward.

    All good noises from my point of view. I was briefly in the RDF before (I got accepted for the PDF shortly after) and my experience was the below.
    - Applied by turning up to gate.
    - No fitness test.
    - Medical involved half a day hanging around St Bricin’s.
    - No dates for training and remained a recruit until I was discharged due to no fault of my own.
    - Remember being left in a kitchenette for almost two hours most parade nights as the unit didn't know what to do with its recruits. Demoralising to the say the least.
    - A large subset of the members of the unit spent the full two hours chatting and drinking numerous cups of tea (hope that's changed).

    Seems to be moving in the right direction to me. Just need to get the people in. That may mean having too many NCOs and officers for the time being but what of it. There has to be collective institutional memory and skill structure at all ranks. The RDF is only at cadre status from what I can see at the moment but you have to start somewhere.
    Last edited by Auldsod; 6th September 2018 at 15:09.

  7. #6707
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AATWT View Post
    There are as many officers General List as there are in appointment, a result of the Re-Org/Single Force Concept. Many of these officers when posted into appointments when they become available are then found to be ineffective.
    The AR officer corps is currently over strength on paper as far as I am aware. An effort must be made by unit commanders and respective GOC's to identify those in appointment and the General List who are in fact ineffective, inform them so and give notice that they may have their commission relinquished.
    Consolidate all appointments and the Gen List, (the AR will probably still have an excess of officers) and through mandatory relinquishment of commissions on age grounds and through request then the gaps can be filled by subsequent POC's. Then you'll have the young, effective RDF officer corps your man in the article was going on about. This will all take time though, so there really isn't a need for a POC in the time frame mentioned.
    There isn’t an excess of RDF officers at any rank on the effective strength (thankfully non-effectives no longer block promotion).

    Few things are required with regard to non-effective officers:
    - Form a small working group of approx 4 officers
    - Write to all and invite them to apply to their GOC to be removed from the non-effective list (if they wish to remain members and have a valid reason for non-attendance that should be taken account of .... if they are likely to apply in the future but remember you can only be non-effective for 2 years)
    - recommend to DCOS that commissions for those not engaged should have procedure for relinquishment of their commissions started.

    Same should be done for SNCOs (except it is easier to get rid of ORs)

    - Write to all and invite them to resign their commissions if they do not wish to return to the non-effective list

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  9. #6708
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    UOTE=morpheus;462518]theres literally f#*k all privates left to train, there are tiny recruitment classes and even then it take so long to actually get around to getting them in uniform that most will never complete training and will leave before completing 3 star - ive recently heard stories like
    QUOTE]

    BINGO

    There are 26 Lts in the RDF, that is 26 Platoons, or following a company structure, 6 1/2 Companies = roughly 600 Privates, 225 NCOs. Is there even that many people to train anymore?. You want to recruit officers in order to put them in charge of platoons and troops that don't even exist....and you think that that is a good thing? You think that they will stay when longer serving, more experienced officer haven't? And you are taking these officers out of the very limited reserve of privates that is there?

    I have to question who is not facing reality?


    These con job "Good Ideas" are exactly that - con jobs, designed to massage figures, make things look good and get in the way of the real problems.
    You post like that and don't expect to be called on it ? Where are you getting your 26 from ? you are way off the actual .

    Did you even read what was written. So what if there's bugger all recruits at the moment. Do you think we don't see that or have tried to fix it.

    1. If we start max scale recruiting even now that we can train maybe 2+ Pls per annum per Bn you simply cannot do more, not enough SIC2s, and they need 18 onths to come through as 3*

    2. That will take several years to get back to full strength ; you're still going to lose 50% to the PDF and attrition AT LEAST and thats a best case outcome in 2 years you simply can not change that figure except for the worse, and thats through the best years of 2006/2007/2008

    3 You absolutely and must have leaders for those who stay ; they need to be coming on stream when those people do. You can argue all you want here but if we stand around we are losing time.

    Not sure if you can be convinced though but I know many here by face who think like I do

    BTW happy to discuss but thats not going to change the outcome
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  11. #6709
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    From what we learnt in the reorg process I would question effective strength figures for every year prior to around 2015

  12. #6710
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Once again from the outside looking in; I wouldn’t worry about potential new entrants comparing the new organisation to the older FCA brand. The renaming took place well before any of them were even old enough to join. When I discuss the RDF with people, a good 95% plus of them don’t even know the Army Reserve and NSR exists. Awareness of the FCA is far more common and being honest, most people I’ve asked remember it (rightly or wrongly) as at best a club for playing army and at worst, a drinking club. All unfair assertions I believe but there is an element of truth there.

    The new fitness standards and proper recruitment process have definitely reduced the recruitment pool. I wasn’t in the reserve 10-15 years ago but most people I know who joined, did so for the craic of training for a summer or two, the money and the tax free beer. They had no interest in weekly parades or having a career in the reserves. I don’t think there is need of a relaunch as awareness is already on the floor and the organisation already has already gone through a reorginisation.
    Yes, there are less and less new recruits joining but at least they are being properly trained and if they do get through, at least you know they are likely to stay in the organisation for some time rather than turn into ghosts when they get bored with the organisation or get a bit older. It seems to me that the RDF has started moving from being a hobby organisation to being a proper reserve; a proper reserve that requires, time, commitment and sacrifice to be part of. There are recruitment issues yes, and I hear posters here reminiscing about full camps back in the day but surely having a far smaller organisation with a few (lot) of issues that needs ironing out is better than what went before. I think things seem to be moving in the right direction even though maybe not at the pace some of posters like but it does.

    I’m new to the RDF but I do have a previous relationship with the DF so I do have a comparison. My recent recruitment process did fall down in a few places but it was professional.
    - Online application.
    - Fitness tests only weeks after.
    - Fitness tests taken seriously and numerous fails. A good thing that the organisation is discerning.
    - Medical completed efficiently on the day. Actually more efficiently that a previous PDF experience.
    - Organisation of training was less efficient but that was more due to delays with medicals and garda clearance and the RDF were trying to drive things forward.

    All good noises from my point of view. I was briefly in the RDF before (I got accepted for the PDF shortly after) and my experience was the below.
    - Applied by turning up to gate.
    - No fitness test.
    - Medical involved half a day hanging around St Bricin’s.
    - No dates for training and remained a recruit until I was discharged due to no fault of my own.
    - Remember being left in a kitchenette for almost two hours most parade nights as the unit didn't know what to do with its recruits. Demoralising to the say the least.
    - A large subset of the members of the unit spent the full two hours chatting and drinking numerous cups of tea (hope that's changed).

    Seems to be moving in the right direction to me. Just need to get the people in. That may mean having too many NCOs and officers for the time being but what of it. There has to be collective institutional memory and skill structure at all ranks. The RDF is only at cadre status from what I can see at the moment but you have to start somewhere.
    +1

    But I’m not talking rebranding or another reorg

    I’m talking plain English (not army speak) this is what the RDF is, this is what we do, this is what’s involved


    Unless you have a bit of knowledge of the DF, this means nothing:
    http://www.military.ie/reserve/

  13. #6711
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    There isn’t an excess of RDF officers at any rank on the effective strength
    General List are included on effective strength returns, there is an excess of Lt's (2/Lt's included) and Capt's.

  14. #6712
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    I don't know where you are getting your figures from but in February 2018 the number of officers per the effective strength returns 278 and the establishment is 282. The Lts were 74 over establishment but the Captains were 70 below establishment and this was before the promotion of Lts who met the fixed term qualification. So that means officers are more or less at establishment and falling.

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  16. #6713
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    B20 correct for AR.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  17. #6714
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    ... ive recently heard stories like
    600 applied
    200 interviewed
    150 were to do fitness test
    60 turned up
    40 passed
    Your figures aren't too far off the mark. In 2017 there were 1,221 applicants and only 139 recruits were enlisted, a further 38 were enlisted by February 2018 that is a conversion rate of 14.5%. We are 1,713 under strength at the Pte level. We lost 31% between Feb 17 and Feb 18 (either through promotion or leaving) and there is no reason to assume this will not change.

    Ideally we should grow. Lets say a target of an increase of 300 each year, that would bring us up to full strength by 2022. To do that we would need to enlist 544 in 2018 (2019: 637, 2020: 730, 2021: 916, 2022: 1009). Based on current conversion rates it means attracting nearly 4,000 applicants in 2018.

    Realistically I do not see us making much of dent on the attrition rate. For as long as I remember you would lose approx. 1/3 of your Ptes each year for a variety of reasons. Even in the good times when there was gratuity and unlimited mandays, and tactics up the wazu we were losing that percentage.

    We will have to figure out how to improve the conversion rate of expressions of interest to enlisted personnel.

  18. #6715
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Its a sales funnel and for any salesman you start backwards and work out what sales factors like campaigns you need to meet that number.

    I suggest that number just be judged on completing Year 2 because it is only then you are useful

    so to get 30 three stars means 150 applicants to the website or thereabouts

    ( see the PDF with 100 in Cadet classes etc as they have done the sums just the same )
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  19. #6716
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    To get 30 3 stars you would need around 400 expressions of interest.

  20. #6717
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    theres the pub argument weve had many a time
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  21. #6718
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    To get 30 3 stars you would need around 400 expressions of interest.
    My question is, how was it back in the day when there were more resources and fitness standards weren't a thing?

    Did nearly everyone who turned up to the barrack's gate get in? The imposition of proper standards, medicals, etc could explain the lack of joiners as much as anything.

    It's not surprising that there is little public knowledge of it seeing as the numbers involved are so tiny now. Don't think I've met anyone in my workplace who knows of it's existence.

  22. #6719
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    You would have good years and bad years. At company level we would try and recruit 20 personnel every year. There was no criteria bar age and background check, there maybe a few failures for medical reasons but those numbers were small. To get 20, we would probably need to start the paperwork on 40. HOWEVER as a company we actively went out and recruited (schools mainly, sometimes shopping centres). Even still there were some years when we would only get 5 or 6 recruits. The security clearance process could still take 16 weeks and we lost most people through not wanting to wait.

    I DO NOT ADVOCATE A REDUCTION OF MEDICAL AND FITNESS STANDARDS

    The retention rate was always bad, you would typically loose a third of your recruits each year, and for various reasons.

    This year, it looks like they did the application process alongside targeted recruiting by units. It will be interesting to see the results of this. I do think we need to do it twice a year though.

  23. #6720
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    There was no online so it was a case of turning up to meet someone in the unit - which obviously meant people had to physically arrive which could be a more direct indicator

    The min age was increased from 17 to 18 about maybe 8-10 years ago I think

    There was no psyometric testing (not sure if was/still done for RDF)

    There was no fitness test

    The medical and s/clearance was the same



    The big hold failure rates in the past were audiograms, sometimes height and the occasional colour blindness. My sub-unit didn’t get too many failures of s/clearance (it just took ages)

  24. #6721
    C/S Auldsod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post

    There was no psyometric testing (not sure if was/still done for RDF)

    )
    No psychometric testing for the RDF at the moment. The interview must be catching those issues!

  25. #6722
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    The financial aspect is vastly less attractive than it was. especially for summer students. The drinking culture is gone as well - IMHO too far in the opposite direction - much RDF camaraderie has been lost but I am conscious this will provoke some discussion.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  26. #6723
    Recruit Poiuyt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    You post like that and don't expect to be called on it ? Where are you getting your 26 from ? you are way off the actual .

    Did you even read what was written.
    You have got to be kidding me....FFS, did YOU read what was written???? I got the figure from B20's post which was a future possible figure:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    The establishment for Lts in the AR is 110, based on current trends there will 26 left in less than 2 years.
    I know I am way off actual because the figure of 26 is a FUTURE possible figure - I was RESPONDING to B20s figure & post who provided the figure that I was responding to.
    FFS, read the posts yourself, keep up with the conversation and stop attacking people.
    Last edited by Poiuyt; 10th September 2018 at 15:48.

  27. #6724
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    The financial aspect is vastly less attractive than it was. especially for summer students. The drinking culture is gone as well - IMHO too far in the opposite direction - much RDF camaraderie has been lost but I am conscious this will provoke some discussion.
    It is also generational and military (not just Irish)

    I’ll send you a leadership case study, the 00s are much more likely to be engaging each other’s via an app

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