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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
    You mean cadre wages and allowances!?
    All 48 of them? Whose allowance were cut ,then taxed? Who because they are assigned to reserve units do F**k all duties so have no scope to make a few extra quid.
    The RDF was set up for failure from the start, but it was set up for failure not by the MA or the PDF Cadre, but by itself and in particular its leadership
    Oh no,you cant say that.It could never be the fault of the kingdom builders,the one camp wonders or the parish pump leadership of the RDF.No dont you know its all the PDF's fault.
    Modern technology? I'm not sure if you've noticed but many of us use "modern technology" in our day jobs to a lot higher a level than PDF ORs in an Infantry unit. The PDF is by in large a light infantry force equipped to 1990s standards not NASA.
    Perhaps if you work in a science lab.Or in I.T. But the euro value of the equipment most redarse 3 stars get to play with can run into the thousands.For one soldier! NVE,CNR's,TI for example.And all of that kit is as good as if not better than some other Armies. 1990's my arse.( Nice attitude BTW)
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by kermit
      I've done duties in occupied barracks which would normally have drawn SDA.
      as did I before joining the PDF, but then Dev is rarely wrong as we all know

      Comment


      • Originally posted by kermit
        I've done duties in occupied barracks which would normally have drawn SDA.
        Fair enough but that isn't the experience nationwide and my own belief is that should should have got SDA.

        Originally posted by apod View Post
        All 48 of them? Whose allowance were cut ,then taxed? Who because they are assigned to reserve units do F**k all duties so have no scope to make a few extra quid.

        Oh no,you cant say that.It could never be the fault of the kingdom builders,the one camp wonders or the parish pump leadership of the RDF.No dont you know its all the PDF's fault.

        Perhaps if you work in a science lab.Or in I.T. But the euro value of the equipment most redarse 3 stars get to play with can run into the thousands.For one soldier! NVE,CNR's,TI for example.And all of that kit is as good as if not better than some other Armies. 1990's my arse.( Nice attitude BTW)
        Not sure how many duties someone in barracks does (depend on the barracks) but in my experience they have at least 1 a month, if there was an RDF event they also had to be there (yes they may get a day in lieu).

        The 48 personnel would give enough to give 4000 RDF another 4 days each.

        Absolutely, the kingdom builders are a major problem but the question I have is how can they yield so much power (it never seemed to happen in the East), while there are RDF EOs, SOs and SSOs, the true power is with unit commanders (which in all cases apart from Cav, Engr, CIS, MPs (?) & BTCs(?)), OC Bde RDF, D RES, GOCs, DCOSs and COS are all PDF.

        Yet a DDFT issues an order (the recruit syllabus) and PDF unit commanders are allowed to do there own thing (even if it was coy commanders saying don't think this is a good idea the unit commander should be putting his foot down!

        I work in an admin job but am responsible for millions of euro worth of stock but have a hard time getting raingear from the DF.

        Originally posted by midnight oil View Post
        as did I before joining the PDF, but then Dev is rarely wrong as we all know
        That is your experience. I have over 15 years service, the year I joined there were people who got a fair few weeks doing border duty, in the 15 years after that only 2/3 times has there been any opportunity to do duties for the PDF in the nearest barracks to me AFAIK - bearing in mind I have always been 1 of the most regular paraders and would be one of the people making the list of volunteers (1 of them was FMD (not used), there was 1 occasion they were definitely used and not sure of the third)).

        Comment


        • The stated purpose of the RDf is to augument the PDF,until this is actually spelt out in a structured fashion the status quo will pevail.The basic start point is to give the RDF a defined,discreet attainable and usable function to enable it augument the DF in a practical and measurable fashion.The lack of a clear purpose is kiling the org leaving all very augumentative!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by danno View Post
            The stated purpose of the RDf is to augument the PDF,until this is actually spelt out in a structured fashion the status quo will pevail.The basic start point is to give the RDF a defined,discreet attainable and usable function to enable it augument the DF in a practical and measurable fashion.The lack of a clear purpose is kiling the org leaving all very augumentative!
            Exactly!

            Yet even in its stated role of augmenting the PDF so it can undertake contingency ops it is rarely used (ie the PDF will deploy a bn minus on the ground on ex as it will not utilise the RDF).

            The DF overall provide VFM by undertaking other duties eg overseas, ATCP, ATCA etc. In establishment, more of less 50% of the DF has not been allowed to deliver VFM because it hasn't been allowed to do its job (assist the PDF).

            The RDF took the blame in the VFM because an organisation that isn't allowed to do anything can't deliver VFM, so now we have to do it and it is our fault that we didn't do it.

            The RDF is not blameless but it hasn't needed to improve as it would not be used, MOI tells us to use incentives!

            I spoke about who was in charge, the PDF could have introduced ITs at any time for the RDF, they didn't! As an example the VFM on the DF medical services twice - RDF MOs bring deployed overseas and how many RDF recruit medicals were undertaken, but then leaves them out when trying to figure what the establishment of MOs should be.

            We will see if APWTs, medicals, fitness test and voluntary service will be organised on weekends in or to allow 100% in 2015!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by SwiftandSure
              Genius.

              I suppose, if we were to take this out of a military context and put it in civvy terms I wonder how the attitude would differ.....

              Imagine an engineering managed services company with a load of fulltime staff, who's business is to provide skilled engineers for project work.

              There aren't that many projects on as the economy has slowed down, so most of the engineers are sitting around the workshop waiting for work to come in. They keep themselves busy, some are working in the loading bay, others in the canteen, a couple are on the security desk, some are sweeping the floors, others are just hiding in the storeroom all day, keeping out of sight. A lucky few are being sent on courses to keep the skills up and learn new technologies. The company also keeps a few contractors on staff, who they occasionally bring in to train on their particular software platforms, to keep their skills current, but generally don't use them unless absolutely necessary.

              Unfortunately, due to the lack of projects, there's less money available and cutbacks are necessary. The company has already cutback on allowances, overtime, bonuses as well as tools, vans, and spare parts. They've even reduced the rates and training for the contractors. The contractors although annoyed, don't mind too much, as they enjoy coming in for the training, meeting the lads, and really relish the idea of the working on the company's projects when they're not working elsewhere.

              The Finance director is looking at his books, a few of his staff are actually working on projects, most are doing tasks around the workshop that are well below their skill sets, another few are on courses preparing for a potential upcoming project, the rest are floating around somewhere.

              He's effectively employing highly skilled engineers, commanding competitive employment packages with generous company pensions and benefits who are just pushing brooms, loading trucks and making tea all day. He also has the few contractors on the books, who are currently working on other projects for other companies, but he can book them if he needs them, as long as he can give them some notice and puts them on any necessary training courses before a project starts.

              Meanwhile, the company's competitors are outperforming them, opting for more outsourced business models in an effort to reduce capital spending and staffing costs without affecting customer service or breaching SLAs, and continuing to make profits.

              The Finance Director calls a general meeting and says, "We need to save money, any suggestions?".

              To which one of the engineers, still holding a broom, in between sipping his tea, pipes up and says, "yeah, we reckon you should get rid of the contractors".
              Aspects of this post so remind me of my own job....
              "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

              Comment


              • Items from DAIL ANSWERS [4th March 2013] inclueded......

                Defence Forces Reserve Training

                401. Deputy Michael McGrath asked the Minister for Defence further to Parliamentary Question No. 585 of 29 January 2013, when he expects to receive the information sought from the military authorities and the dates on which training resumed for Reserve Defence Force by unit in the First Southern Brigade. [11216/13]

                Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): I forwarded the material requested in Parliamentary Question 585 to the Deputy on Thursday, 28th February. The Reserve Defence Force (RDF) is currently undergoing a major re-organisation. This is consistent with the recommendations of the recently published VFM Review. The Military Authorities have advised me that training has been ongoing in all units of the RDF, including all units in the 1 Brigade. However, there has been some adjustment to the normal routine. In this context, from the 1 December 2012 to the 31 March 2013, training has been limited to unarmed training. The full range of training activities will resume from the end of March.


                Defence Forces Reserve Strength
                402. Deputy Michael McGrath asked the Minister for Defence when the authority to recruit and maintain the new strength for the Reserve Defence Force will be delegated; if he is concerned at the effects of claimed delays for security clearance from An Garda Síochána which has an adverse impact in previous years and inhibited timely replacements. [11217/13]

                Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): The Defence Vote, like other areas of the public sector, has seen significant reductions in funding in recent years. This has reduced the levels of paid training that was available for members of the Reserve and recruitment to the Reserve was restricted accordingly. The recently published Value for Money Review of the Reserve Defence Force recommended the retention of a Reserve of approximately 4,000 personnel. In order to ensure the sustainability of this strength level it recommended withdrawing gratuities from members of the Reserve and re-directing this funding to increase the number of paid training man-days. This will facilitate appropriate levels of recruitment to sustain the new Reserve strength ceiling.

                New Reserve organisational structures are currently being implemented. As part of this process the military authorities will assign existing members of the Reserve to posts within the new organisational structures. When this process in complete, the military authorities will identify if any vacancies exist and what level of recruitment may be required. Applicants to the Reserve Defence Force are vetted by the Garda Central Vetting Unit as part of the recruitment process. I understand that the processing times for vetting of applications is currently 8 to 10 weeks and this will be taken into account in the context of any future recruitment.


                Defence Forces Reserve Reorganisation

                403. Deputy Noel Harrington asked the Minister for Defence the reason the briefing on the reorganisation of the Reserve Defence Forces in the allocated training centre under the jurisdiction of the 12th Battalion Limerick did not take place in Skibbereen as previously agreed and directed by the Chief of Staff thus incurring high costs for each of the members of the reserve forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11282/13]

                Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): Arising out of the reorganisation of the Reserve Defence Force a schedule of briefings for personnel took place last month. The locations of these briefings were Mallow, Tralee, Limerick and Cork. These locations were set in consultation with the Officer’s Commanding of the extant units in order to maximise the numbers attending, and to minimise distances to be travelled by personnel, having regard to the geographic distribution of personnel across the region. This decision was communicated to the reserve units in ample time to allow personnel to make arrangements to attend, and to request military transport to be provided, if so required. I am given to understand that no request was made, by the twelve Skibbereen personnel concerned, for military transport to be provided to attend the Cork briefing.


                Defence Forces Reserve Reorganisation

                406. Deputy Robert Troy asked the Minister for Defence his views on the reorganisation of the Reserve Defence Forces/Reserve Artillery Regiment in Mullingar, County Westmeath,in view of the fact that at present his Department is renting a disused factory as a reserve military post whilst Columb Barracks, County Westmeath, continues to lie idle. [11574/13]

                407. Deputy Robert Troy asked the Minister for Defence the reasons behind the decision for the Reserve Artillery Regiment in Mullingar, County Westmeath, ceasing to operate from 1 April 2013 and instead becoming a Reserve Infantry Company. [11575/13]

                408. Deputy Robert Troy asked the Minister for Defence if he will reconsider the policy of moving Reserve Artillery Regiments to new locations in view of the high costs associated with the retraining of reserve units around the State. [11576/13]

                Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): I propose to take Questions Nos. 406 to 408, inclusive, together.
                The Value for Money Review of the Reserve Defence Force (RDF), which was published in November 2012, made a broad range of recommendations aimed at ensuring the continued viability of the RDF into the future. I accepted these recommendations and subsequent proposals for a major re-organisation of the RDF, which were brought forward by the Chief of Staff and the Secretary General. The new organisational structures will see Defence Forces Units having both Permanent and Reserve elements, which differs from the current approach. These new structures are scheduled to come into effect from the end of March 2013.

                In order to achieve the required levels of interoperability, Reserve Combat Support elements (including Artillery) and Combat Service Support elements will be co-located with their Permanent Defence Force (PDF) counterparts in PDF installations. This will ensure access to equipment, expertise and facilitate appropriate training. In 2 Brigade, Reserve Artillery elements will be co-located with their PDF counterparts in Custume Barracks, Athlone. In 1 Brigade, Reserve Artillery elements will be co-located with their PDF counterparts in Collins Barracks, Cork. Members of the Reserve who are currently serving in existing Reserve Artillery Units may apply for a position in these locations or they may opt to apply for a position in an alternative Unit.
                Reserve Infantry Units will be located in PDF installations and in sixteen other locations throughout the State. Mullingar was selected as one of these sixteen locations. Members of the Reserve who are currently serving in the Reserve Artillery Unit in Mullingar may opt to apply for a position in the new Infantry Rifle Company. Every effort will be made to facilitate members of the Reserve with their preferred choice.

                Training will be provided to underpin and facilitate the re-organisation. This will be met from within the existing Reserve training budget. The implementation of the recommendations of the VFM Review, including new organisational structures, will reduce direct expenditure on the Reserve by approximately €11 million in 2013.

                The consolidation of the Defence Forces Units into a smaller number of locations was a key objective in the defence modernisation programme and was recommended in many reports. The closure of Columb Barracks in Mullingar in March 2012 was a part of that programme and has realised direct cash savings in utilities, maintenance and security duty allowances, of approximately €400,000 per annum. The premises occupied by the Reserve in Mullingar are currently leased at a cost of €30,750 per annum and this is more cost-effective than maintaining Columb barracks as the training centre for the Reserve in that location. I remain committed to ensuring that we have a sustainable and fit for purpose Reserve Defence Force. I am satisfied that the changes that are being introduced will assist in achieving this goal.

                Comment


                • Ok things here in mullingar are not that clear cut, yes if we wanted we could have applied for the infantry unit here and some of the personnel have. The main problem is that those personnel are going in to the infantry are going in blind as we had no briefing from anyone involed with the 6th infantry, the only briefing we got just before the close date for forms to go back was by the 2ic of the 2nd FAR, he was able to tell us what he had planned for us this year and that when we came back to training in january we would get all the dates we needed for the year. He was asked if he had heard anything from the infantry and said no, not even to brief any personnel who might want to go to the artillery, he did say when asked that an invite had been sent to the infantry to come and brief us but got no reply. As far as i am aware a few people have asked to be discharged. also most of us when filling out the forms only filled in 1 and 2 for appointments with in most cases 3 left blank.

                  As for useing columb barracks while the minister is right in saying it would cost to much just to have a reserve unit there, but having said that in mullingar there are a few gov departments that rent property privately and money could be saved by having them all in the same place.
                  Last edited by dasa29; 7 March 2013, 15:55.

                  Comment


                  • 403. Deputy Noel Harrington asked the Minister for Defence the reason the briefing on the reorganisation of the Reserve Defence Forces in the allocated training centre under the jurisdiction of the 12th Battalion Limerick did not take place in Skibbereen as previously agreed and directed by the Chief of Staff thus incurring high costs for each of the members of the reserve forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11282/13]

                    Minister for Defence (Deputy Alan Shatter): Arising out of the reorganisation of the Reserve Defence Force a schedule of briefings for personnel took place last month. The locations of these briefings were Mallow, Tralee, Limerick and Cork. These locations were set in consultation with the Officer’s Commanding of the extant units in order to maximise the numbers attending, and to minimise distances to be travelled by personnel, having regard to the geographic distribution of personnel across the region. This decision was communicated to the reserve units in ample time to allow personnel to make arrangements to attend, and to request military transport to be provided, if so required. I am given to understand that no request was made, by the twelve Skibbereen personnel concerned, for military transport to be provided to attend the Cork briefing.
                    What about the people from Bantry, Castletownbere etc who were expecting to only have to travel as far as skibbereen? Clearly the minister does not appreciate the distances involved. He also does not appreciate, that these people also have day jobs, and a commute to cork for a meeting may involve them having to leave these jobs early?


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                    Comment


                    • The rent on the premises in Mullingar is the equivalent of 27% of the budget for all RDF premised in 2011 !!!!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                        What about the people from Bantry, Castletownbere etc who were expecting to only have to travel as far as skibbereen? Clearly the minister does not appreciate the distances involved. He also does not appreciate, that these people also have day jobs, and a commute to cork for a meeting may involve them having to leave these jobs early?
                        If they cannot make it to their prescribed barracks for a briefing, what chance have they got in making it for weekday / weekend parades?

                        Consideration really should have been given as to whether some locations actually should have been disbanded all together

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                          What about the people from Bantry, Castletownbere etc who were expecting to only have to travel as far as skibbereen? Clearly the minister does not appreciate the distances involved. He also does not appreciate, that these people also have day jobs, and a commute to cork for a meeting may involve them having to leave these jobs early?
                          No surprise there. Politicians don't care. The DF are at the bottom of the pile in the government's agenda. The RDF are at the bottom of the pile in the DF's agenda.
                          If people want to be in the PDF / RDF today they have to be prepared to travel. That is the reality today. The days are gone (and rightly so IMO) of every little town and village having a local centre. To get to work of course you should have to use your own transport, the same should apply to the RDF.

                          Comment


                          • The Minister stood up in the Dail yesterday and said ( apropos of the GRA and AGSI ) CP2 negotiations.

                            The Deputy can check the record. All he will discover is that I engaged in a number of broadcasts and made a number of statements in the print media urging that the representative associations engage, participate and address the concerns of their members. It is a bitter disappointment to me that they chose not to do so.

                            What infuriates me is no mention of the RDFRA here

                            But what I cannot do in any such discussions is re-open in any shape or form the outcome of the negotiations that were completed in Lansdowne House in which a number of trade unions and representative bodies fully participated and which have produced an outcome that must now be voted upon by the members of various unions and by those whom the bodies represent
                            If the RDF weren't affected I'd be OK with this but a 10% paycut and then claim it's "agreed" ? at least PDf had faces at the table

                            "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                            "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by midnight oil View Post
                              If they cannot make it to their prescribed barracks for a briefing, what chance have they got in making it for weekday / weekend parades?

                              Consideration really should have been given as to whether some locations actually should have been disbanded all together
                              Absolutely spot on! but knowing the DF they were told the week before and message didn't get to everyone etc etc

                              Eh they did!
                              There are going to be 16 locations left outside barracks, from what I can count in the badly printed map there were 37 RDF only locations in the Galway/Mayo area alone!

                              My firm belief is that they should have closed all units outside PDF barracks and reduced the strength to 2-3,000.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                                What infuriates me is no mention of the RDFRA here

                                If the RDF weren't affected I'd be OK with this but a 10% paycut and then claim it's "agreed" ? at least PDf had faces at the table

                                http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas....ocument#W00250
                                Why would there be RDFRA representation?

                                We can't have a C&A Scheme because we get all the benefits the PDF do - that is the DOD line.

                                We were represented, it wouldn't surprise me if PDFORRA suggested it!

                                Comment

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