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  • Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    Which is why, IMO, RDF Bn's, Regiment's or Squadrons shouldn't exist. No RDF Unit should be larger than a Coy in size and it should be a Coy operating within a PDF Bn(Replace as appropriate). For instance, 2 Inf Bn B Coy.

    Within the first year, all NCO's, Officers and 3 Stars will be upskilled and brought up to the required standard by the Bn's PDF NCO's and Officers. Those first year troops would form the nucleus of the new Coy, afterwards all recruiting would be done on the basis of fitness test, interview board and medical. After the first year, all troops would follow the annual training plan, conduct courses as necessary to fill appointments and each year would take part in the Bn Ex. and the Bn's LFTT when it's conducted.

    Until the Army decides to embrace the RDF and mould it into a model that can work, rather than the headless chicken model that it seems to follow now, the public and the PDF will never get what it needs from the RDF.

    We can ditch the green berets, stop the "There's those baggers" bollocks, grab the bull by the horns and drag the RDF upto the required standard or else just let the bloody thing die. One of those choices has to be made because as it stands, it's nothing more than a massive waste of money.
    +1
    I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
      but back to basics is correct, tactics, SIA, formations even at section level, reaction to enemy fire, NCO's remembering how to run a section, 2ICs remembering how to do their jobs. all this needs to be refreshed, the problem is that in most units its nigh on impossible to get a SECTION of 2/3 stars to turn up on a training night.
      This is what should be done on camps! Get a platoon plus or whatever you have together get them into the drills, push them hard and they will come back and will also be prepared for the assessments).

      Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post
      Within the first year, all NCO's, Officers and 3 Stars will be upskilled and brought up to the required standard by the Bn's PDF NCO's and Officers. Those first year troops would form the nucleus of the new Coy, afterwards all recruiting would be done on the basis of fitness test, interview board and medical. After the first year, all troops would follow the annual training plan, conduct courses as necessary to fill appointments and each year would take part in the Bn Ex. and the Bn's LFTT when it's conducted.

      Until the Army decides to embrace the RDF and mould it into a model that can work, rather than the headless chicken model that it seems to follow now, the public and the PDF will never get what it needs from the RDF.

      We can ditch the green berets, stop the "There's those baggers" bollocks, grab the bull by the horns and drag the RDF upto the required standard or else just let the bloody thing die. One of those choices has to be made because as it stands, it's nothing more than a massive waste of money.
      Definitely with you apod but a couple of points:
      - train as a unit (RDF instructors where capable, PDF as necessary)
      - in a lot of PDF units you would end up with a Coy HQ, Pln HQs, and probably a platoon plus (maybe 2 if you are lucky - but it could be built up over time)
      - BTCs to run recruit & 2* training over those 2 years to expand the coys later
      - I want to keep my beret - I'm proud of the time I give freely


      Originally posted by morpheus View Post
      first time ever this yr i saw a PDF cadre officers orders to tell RDF personnel who hadn't attended the initiation weekend into MOUT to basically f**k off if they thought they would be taking part in the MOUT ex. and they stuck to it too.
      Good stuff!

      Originally posted by luchi View Post
      The detail NCO and Tpt O of a certain PDF Bn authorised the use of 2 Ivecos that were sitting un-used in the Glen but the CS on the ground refused to hand them over to RDF because they might be required.

      One might argue that he had the right to do so but then if it had been a PDF unit looking for the vehicles would he have put up such a resistance.
      It could be a case of not being able to call in a favour in return?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        Definitely with you apod but a couple of points:
        - train as a unit (RDF instructors where capable, PDF as necessary)
        - in a lot of PDF units you would end up with a Coy HQ, Pln HQs, and probably a platoon plus (maybe 2 if you are lucky - but it could be built up over time)
        - BTCs to run recruit & 2* training over those 2 years to expand the coys later
        - I want to keep my beret - I'm proud of the time I give freely
        - Oh of course, definitely train as a Unit. I merely in that first year where the RDF makes a step into a PDF Unit, it's upto the PDF Unit to get the troops upto the required standard. Once the first year of upskilling is done, all responsibility for training goes back to the RDF NCO's and Officers.
        - Numbers are always a problem but IMO, the new RDF operating as part of a PDF Unit with proper courses and training available will draw more Recruits and would certainly help retention.
        - Yes, definitely a centralised Recruit Training structure ran from the BTC's with troops then sent to their Unit's to carry on from there. Again, move the RDF instructors from RDF BTC into the PDF BTC.
        - Well, I'm sure plenty of people would but since you'd be part of a PDF Unit I'd see no need for a green beret. Although I'm in favour of Corps specific berets so I probably wouldn't even keep my black one

        While the concept is far from flawless, I think if the PDF and more importantly, the RDF, really wants to develop it's capabilities and get bang for it's buck well then it's time to embrace the "One Army" philosophy.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by luchi View Post
          THe answer for the RDF is always "up the middle with smoke".

          HA there is one rather large fly in the ointment when it comes to having the RDF unit as a part of the PDF one.
          Many RDF unit/sub-units parade in places that PDF do not.
          As was said above to do otherwise is not going to happed for what ever reason you wish to pick.
          P there are plenty of NCOs doing their job and plenty of officers too.
          But even a well switched O can''t get blood from a stone.
          How many training week ends were cancelled at short notice in the last year due to lack of resources.
          We are running driving courses but half the time there is not enough vehicles to do the job.
          There is only so many times you can engauge in Death by Lecture.


          Not all PDF want to work with the RDF
          Look at the farce that went on last monday.
          The detail NCO and Tpt O of a certain PDF Bn authorised the use of 2 Ivecos that were sitting un-used in the Glen but the CS on the ground refused to hand them over to RDF because they might be required.

          One might argue that he had the right to do so but then if it had been a PDF unit looking for the vehicles would he have put up such a resistance.
          The vehicles were finally released when the O/ic of the troops on the ground asked the two drivers why the RDF hadn't collected the vehicles. They could only shrug and say they were told not to hand them over.

          Now our tpt training is the same as the PDFs so there can be no excuse about not trusting the RDF drivers to do the job.

          Would the same crap go on if it was infantry equipment?
          Just imagine turning up for a 0.5 shoot and the PDF CQ telling the RDF "well you can't use our gun because these are for PDF only, even though our CO told you you could".
          I know there's people who don't want to work with the RDF but in reality, those same people have probably never actual worked with the RDF before.

          Equipment etc. would belong to the Unit anyway. PDF CQ's wouldn't have to be dealt with because in reality, the RDF Coy would have their own stores within the PDF Bn.

          Again it's not foolproof but it could work and should be IMO, the way forward. As you've pointed out before from your own experience, as have others, you're capable of instructing on courses with PDF pers as students and have done so in the past.

          The capabilities are there for the most part, all that's needed is the will and a bit of planning. Although that'd probably end up being the stumbling block in fairness. As the RDF isn't the only part of the DF plagued by empire building and yes men.

          Comment


          • Dreams........................Most RDF have full-time jobs or are in school or college and give time at weekends and during their hoildays from work or whatever. PDF don't want to do weekends and take their hoildays from WORK
            Last edited by bunny shooter; 30 June 2011, 19:48.

            Comment


            • You get rid of the non-integrated units, cadre (or at least their appointments) become part of the PDF unit. You'd need relatively few instructors to train a coy minus, pay them FCA / in-addition allowance (you are saving on the cadres').

              With the various pay cuts many would be glad of it!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                It could be a case of not being able to call in a favour in return?
                Well if that's the way the DF is supposed to operate it's news to me.

                besides on the favours front we are already well in credit with that unit.
                Without supplies no army is brave.

                —Frederick the Great,

                Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bunny shooter View Post
                  Dreams........................Most RDF have full-time jobs or are in school or college and give time at weekends and during their hoildays from work or whatever. PDF don't want to do weekends and take their hoildays from WORK
                  There have been fully-manned RDF units that worked well at the tasks set them (Nos. 1 and 2 Film Support Units). The first had 500 troops for maybe three months, with a couple of weeks with an extra 1,000 or so. The second had less total troops, but met with the same success. The volunteers went back to their own units once the mission ended. There is no good reason why this couldn't be repeated for getting at least a core of RDF training and experience, even if it's just for the summer or whatever.

                  It's not as if the DF doesn't already have experience with this sort of arrangement (the UN service units). The problem is whether or not the DF/DOD/DOF would ever permit such a scheme to come into existence.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wicklaman View Post
                    It's not as if the DF doesn't already have experience with this sort of arrangement (the UN service units). The problem is whether or not the DF/DOD/DOF would ever permit such a scheme to come into existence.
                    Now its one thing sending the lads off to work for a film company.
                    Thats just like them taking up a job. You know they will be back.
                    But to do it as an exercise where they are expected to know their drills and perform as part of a unit.
                    Imagine how people might think this the way to go and then look to be permanently with what should have been a temporary unit.
                    How would COs be able to maintain their units?
                    Without supplies no army is brave.

                    —Frederick the Great,

                    Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by luchi View Post
                      Now its one thing sending the lads off to work for a film company.
                      Thats just like them taking up a job. You know they will be back.
                      But to do it as an exercise where they are expected to know their drills and perform as part of a unit.
                      Imagine how people might think this the way to go and then look to be permanently with what should have been a temporary unit.
                      How would COs be able to maintain their units?
                      Luchi, I'm unware of the FCÁ/RDF in the past twenty years having ever done any training during the summer (after Camp season). The only 'official' summertime reserve activity I've ever seen has been the film units or periods of paid duties along the Border (YMMV), and neither ever attracted the sort of controversy that attached itself to partial integration (in fact, my own officers and SNCOs were eager to put younger souls onto these. They certainly helped retention in the mid-'90s).

                      But I'm just throwing this out there. I don't think that there's ever been a real training substitute for having to go out and be an actual functioning unit for a lengthy period of time. Yet, killing off any unit not in one of the few PDF towns (and set to get fewer, probably) for some varieties of Integration seems to me to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I think we all agree that none of the formations could mobilise at a viable strength, yet they still do provide crucial recruiting and administrative functions.
                      Last edited by Guest; 1 July 2011, 09:48.

                      Comment


                      • While I appreciate Wicklaman's sentiment I disagree extremely strongly with it. Local training and local parading does not work; be a Scout Leader if that's your bag. There is no baby to throw out. Do rural units work hard when they get to barracks ? yes they do. ( I am not slagging off the troops they are excellent and committed too )

                        It is the mindset of being here for the fortnight rather than for the 3 years
                        "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                        "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Wicklaman View Post
                          But I'm just throwing this out there. I don't think that there's ever been a real training substitute for having to go out and be an actual functioning unit for a lengthy period of time.
                          I actually do understand what you are trying to say.

                          The closest we got to "mobilisation" and intergration was the Special Olympics.
                          But even at that the local politics was thick.
                          PDF and RDF had demarkation.
                          Even in CBB there was problems about food and accomadation. Stupid arguements about who should be fed first and separate sleeping quarters for PDF/RDF.
                          On locations little power struggles as to who was in charge. The my Lt is bigger than your Lt type and my Sgt trumps you Lt because he had a black hat on sort crap.
                          But at the end of the day the job was done.

                          No comander, be they NCO or O wants to relinquish control.
                          The halistic approach would be to say F that what's good for the RDF but then what makes the RDF work in one area may kill it in another. The "lets do what's good for us" attitude of the past also doesnot work.
                          I agree we need training exercises to see what we need to do.
                          I supppose as a Tpt person Iit is easy for me to quantitify success in my own area but for other corps it is not so simple.

                          Never the less the fact remains to teach close order foot drill you need at least a section but preferrably a platoon. To teach SIA you need a section. There is a critical mass of troops that are required to teach these things properly.
                          Training 2 lads here and their and then bringing them together once a year just doesn't get the job done to a sufficient standard.
                          Without supplies no army is brave.

                          —Frederick the Great,

                          Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by luchi View Post
                            Even in CBB there was problems about food and accomadation. Stupid arguements about who should be fed first and separate sleeping quarters for PDF/RDF.
                            Luchi, as I posted earlier there is definately a book in this. A very good chapter would be "CCB and the Special Olympics" - front of the queue, back of the queue and back to the front of the queue, all the fun at the front gate and even better fun at the back gate, the gate at Gormo at 6am, the clown suit and the show stopper, "the shoes".
                            I'm not a number, I'm a free man.
                            Who is number 1?

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                            • to be sure but most people who write books are either professional writers or retired.

                              I am neither but maybe "an Ceann Cabáiste" might start one. He could include Tom Barry and the South Pole.
                              Without supplies no army is brave.

                              —Frederick the Great,

                              Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by luchi View Post
                                Well if that's the way the DF is supposed to operate it's news to me.

                                besides on the favours front we are already well in credit with that unit.
                                No but you know yourself!

                                Originally posted by luchi View Post
                                Now its one thing sending the lads off to work for a film company.
                                Thats just like them taking up a job. You know they will be back.
                                But to do it as an exercise where they are expected to know their drills and perform as part of a unit.
                                Imagine how people might think this the way to go and then look to be permanently with what should have been a temporary unit.
                                How would COs be able to maintain their units?
                                Integration was never supposed to be a temporary unit

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