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  • I'm surprised at you Kermit, you are normally more familiar with the regulations.

    DFR5 New Series
    Para 6 (i) & (ii) deals with the increase in the age limit if you have had PDF service ( (ii) allows for a higher age for Sgts and above, maybe this is what people are confused with)
    Para 17 deals with allowing for former PDF members to retain their rank (providing a vacancy exists).
    Para 29 deals with officers of the first line reserve being assigned to the RDF

    Defence Act 1954 paras 44 & 62 - asssignment of officers & men (respectively) to a class of reservist

    Comment


    • The below is a fair summary of how the Swiss operate -it probably works because Switzerland is a much more egalitarian society. Until very recently the rank structure in top Swiss companies replicated that of the Swiss Army. If you put the voluntary time in to move up the ranks in the army you invariably made progress also in civilian life- a Swiss old boys network- and it works.

      Interestin g that the ratio of of professional v militia officers is given as 1:1.



      In contrast to most other comparable Armies, officer candidates are not necessarily career regulars. Instead, until 2004 officers were traditionally selected from the pool of NCOs (non-commissioned officers) and then underwent OCS (officer candidate school, which was and is open to both militia - i.e. officers who also have a civilian job - and future professional officers), five months of intensive training that emphasised small-unit and platoon-sized unit tactics. This system ensured that all officers knew the trade skills of a non-commissioned soldier and mitigated resentment towards officers from NCOs.

      This was abolished with the Army XXI reform as a concession to the Swiss economy which was increasingly unhappy about having its future leaders away for two years at a time (the time it took to become an officer until 2004). In the new system, officers-to-be are selected early based on criteria such as leadership potential and education and are sent directly to officer training. This system, which is similar to that employed in most countries of the world, reduces the time needed to train an officer but means that new entries are sometimes seen to lack credibility in the eyes of traditionalists. The new system is under review but remains in force.

      To assure a generally high level of military leadership above the rank of first lieutenant, the Army maintains the HKA (Hoehere Kaderschule der Armee) which is responsible for an array of professionally run schools such as BUSA (Berufsunteroffiziersschule der Armee) which runs a program for professional non-commissioned officers, the MILAK (Militaerakademie) which runs a bachelor degree program for professional officers, programs for company and battalion commanders, a number of staff courses, and the General Staff and Command College (Gst S), an elite training program whose graduates leave their former branches and are inducted into the so-called General Staff Corps.

      Future general staff officers are selected from the best company commanders and undergo battalion commander training before starting general staff training. Only 30 new trainees are selected per year and even fewer complete the demanding training. Being a general staff officer is a prerequisite for a range of important jobs on Brigade and higher level, such as G2 (chief of intelligence) or G3 (chief of operations).

      The ratio of professional versus militia officers is about 1:1. As a rule of thumb, a significant number of senior civil servants and business leaders in Switzerland are general staff officers, and aspiring managers used to be required to become officers by their company, which would give them personnel management skills amongst other things.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
        Yes there is, you can go in as the same rank as your PDF rank.
        I checked this out over the last few days. On completion of a persons initial 5 years, if they decide to leave or are not re engaged then that person is transferred to the FLR, there is no option to go into the AR instead. (now the guy i spoke to was speaking from memory, he couldnt lay his hands on any documents at the time but he is in admin)

        If for any reason you leave before the 5 years or after the 12 years then there is no reason you cannot go into the AR at your PDF rank providing there is a vacancy and you are eligible.

        To go from FLR to AR you must purchase your discharge first.

        But anyway itas all a load of horse manure , the FLR should be quietly put away and anyone leaving the PDF should be offered the oppertunity to go into the reserve subject to certain requirements .
        Anyone need a spleen ?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by luchi View Post
          I thought in R5 it allowed for a member of the PDF on completion of service, at their request, to be posted to the RDF at the rank held.
          Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
          DFR5 New Series...............
          Defence Act 1954 paras 44 & 62 - asssignment of officers & men (respectively) to a class of reservist
          THanks B20. Thats what I thought but didn't have the time to check.

          Originally posted by ollie View Post
          anyone leaving the PDF should be offered the oppertunity to go into the reserve subject to certain requirements .
          ???????????
          But there is nothing stopping them if they want to....................do you not think its a simple case of ex-pdf just don't want to go to the RDF?

          Would someone that is told after a period that their service is no longer required want to have anything to do with the DF?

          Coming to the end of service, maybe when someone feels that they like the army way but are nolonger physically able for the professional life they might want to ease back and go part-time but otherwise why would any ex-pdf want to be in the RDF?
          Without supplies no army is brave.

          —Frederick the Great,

          Instructions to his Generals, 1747

          Comment


          • Originally posted by kermit
            FLR is classed as part of the service of a PDF contract, thus you can't go into the AR/NSR until the service is complete, afaik.
            I think it is possible to transfer from FLR to SLR?

            Originally posted by luchi View Post
            But there is nothing stopping them if they want to....................do you not think its a simple case of ex-pdf just don't want to go to the RDF?

            Would someone that is told after a period that their service is no longer required want to have anything to do with the DF?

            Coming to the end of service, maybe when someone feels that they like the army way but are nolonger physically able for the professional life they might want to ease back and go part-time but otherwise why would any ex-pdf want to be in the RDF?
            The FLR costs money for not 1 cent in return, so they just alter the contracts/regulations so that the 7 years in the FLR becomes 3 years in AR/NSR.

            There are 2 major problems with people transferring in:
            - skills/qualifications - do they retain them as they may get a new army number? plus will they remain current in them.

            - rank - the regulations say they transfer in at their PDF rank or next lowest (if there is a vacancy). This then has an obvious effect on the career of the person who enlisted in the RDF (as opposed to the PDF). Understandably no one will take a drop in rank.





            The other problem is: to the best of my knowledge there is no requirement for those on the contracts to complete x years in the FLR?!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
              The FLR costs money for not 1 cent in return,
              How does the FLR cost money?
              Its just a paper force.

              Comment


              • search FLR gratuity.... they get an annual gratuity

                Comment


                • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  they get an annual gratuity
                  I dont think anyone in the FLR is currently entitled to it.
                  Has there been any questions in the Dail about the cost of the FLR?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                    I dont think anyone in the FLR is currently entitled to it.
                    Has there been any questions in the Dail about the cost of the FLR?
                    Probably will be now. the questions asked never stray far from...

                    how much do the defence forces cost (probably in an effort to figure out how to put pressure on to cut them more)

                    which israeli baby killing factory have you now bought stuff from? (shinners usually)

                    which company in your jurisdiction have you awarded contracts to

                    and

                    how many ppl are in the defence forces

                    yawn zzzz
                    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                      I dont think anyone in the FLR is currently entitled to it.
                      Has there been any questions in the Dail about the cost of the FLR?
                      Well it is in the estimates every year!

                      Comment


                      • Might find interesting coffee reading.

                        2011 review article

                        Employer Support for Reserves: some international comparisons of Reserve capabilities

                        page 45

                        "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                        Comment


                        • Ah Zulu, there was me thinking you had forgotten about us!!!!!!!!!!
                          Without supplies no army is brave.

                          —Frederick the Great,

                          Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                          Comment


                          • Heard an interesting take on what the army want as a reserve and it is being given serious consideration.

                            1. Disband the current reserve

                            2. Reform a reserve serving along side PDF units in their posts and the criteria being

                            (a)Same levels of fitness as the DF, same training same qualifications. On completion of three star training the reservist would be able to fully integrate with his opposite number in the unit and would be available on demand to the unit for the time of his contract of engagement.

                            (b) Same entry requirements.

                            (c) No promotion, all positions of responsibilty and command to be held by PDF persons only.

                            (d) Units to come under the complete control of the PDF

                            (e) FTT to be held as and when the parent unit requires.
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
                              D Res gave us a talk during the week. Still waiting for VFM output.
                              any word?
                              "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Seanachie View Post
                                Heard an interesting take on what the army want as a reserve and it is being given serious consideration.

                                1. Disband the current reserve

                                2. Reform a reserve serving along side PDF units in their posts and the criteria being

                                (a)Same levels of fitness as the DF, same training same qualifications. On completion of three star training the reservist would be able to fully integrate with his opposite number in the unit and would be available on demand to the unit for the time of his contract of engagement.

                                (b) Same entry requirements.

                                (c) No promotion, all positions of responsibilty and command to be held by PDF persons only.

                                (d) Units to come under the complete control of the PDF

                                (e) FTT to be held as and when the parent unit requires.
                                1 - Agreed

                                2 - Possibly - But I would envisage numerous barrack closures around the country.

                                (a) Level of fitness - Agreed
                                Training Qualifications - Will need a modular structure to accommodate the majority of reservists, i.e weekends
                                The only way of telling if a Reservist will be able to integrate with their regular counterpart is to have KPIs outlined clearly and relevant pass/fail criteria applied. Weapons, fitness, technical and tactical knowledge.
                                On Demand - Realistic expectations from both sides need to be met. As with the PDF, an RDF member is not something that you just hang up on a hook at the end of a day like a coat, and take when needed.

                                (b) Same entry requirements - agreed

                                (c) No promotion outlook - Horseshit - If someone meets (a) and (b) then looking for (c) can be plainly seen as fear of "Take our jobs" attitude and blatant double standards.

                                (d) Units are already under the control of the PDF. If by way you mean operational command then that makes sense. BUT - as can be seen from (c) it wont wash if ALL command is denied to a reservist.

                                (e) Again horseshit. Reeks of poor HR management if there is not a realistic timeframe put over training requirements and when your work force is available.
                                WILL NOT work without some form of employment/employer incentives.

                                Could work if there was centralised recruit training and Corp training across the DF - But there aint apart from Corp concentrations.
                                "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                                Comment

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