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  • Just to clear stuff up. No requirement for PDF per se at a range, Armourer is PDF so there will always be one there but he has his thing to do. As the ic range I have done my range mgmt and ammo accountancy and the sig on the docs is mine. We seem to Be getting a little hot under the collar with some old ground. Why ?
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Saab View Post
      AD, were they actually being attacked from the air or were they doing what they usually do on an ex, sit in a nissan.
      I don't know what AD unit you've seen but any EX I'v been on I haven't had a chance to sit in a nissan other than to move from A to B or work the SINGARS. The only people I've seen in vehicles are drivers or the odd time, a stood down gun crew.
      Be there EN aircraft in the EX or not we can run drills to simulate there is. The excuse of "we can't do anything because the enemy haven't shown up" doesn't work with us.
      Is it really such a stretch of your imagination to believe that the Reserve can do things it's tasked with?




      Now, Septeber has come and gone and lo and behold no VFM. Anyone have any word or is it still the "it will be released soon" line?

      Comment


      • F_M, how do they do that with out a gun?
        The last yerar and the year before at the Bde ex in the Glen the ad were sitting at the bottom of cemetry hill. The had no gun.
        I am sure they were well versed in how to rest!!!

        And yes we can't do anything that we are not tasked to do.
        So it is grand that we aren't tasked to do anything then.
        But the question is why not?
        Is it because the PDF reckon we can do sfa anyway so there is no point tasking us with anything?


        Originally posted by trellheim View Post
        We seem to Be getting a little hot under the collar with some old ground. Why ?
        because the same people are trying to say two different things.

        I agree that cadre have a place at national organisational level.
        Which is the way it seems to be heading.
        But some here seem to think they are vital at local level.

        Comment


        • AD have run regimental exercises nearly every year since I joined. A shame we don't often integrate more often with Inf Battalion or Bde level exercises but the priority is given to ensuring we can operate from top level down in terms of C&C, comms, logs etc.
          "Attack your attic with a Steyr....as seen on the Late Late Show..."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
            No. There is a specific range managers course that must be carried out and it is not limited to Officers. Were a couple of sergeants in Clonmel who were such qualified. Unless its changed since 2009

            I can't be sure if the course was ever offered to the RDF.

            .
            I refer you to the manual of range practices, there is a table that states what type of ranges an RDF Officer can run (it states what type of ranges all type of range managers can run, an RDF Officer is just one of them). Range management is part of the RDF offiicer's syllabus.

            Comment


            • So are you now saying accross the board RDF as trained to the same standard as PDF??
              The units tasked were capable of undertaking the roles they were tasked with,Madmark had an appointment which he carried out with the same level of competency that would be required of a PDF corporal, the vacancy he was filling.

              While we may not have had all the training what we had was that of Cav skills. The gunners were qualified as were the drivers as to the same level of the PDF. they do the same tests.

              Was that because you were RDF and so not treated the same?

              There wasn't a realistc second tasking available as we weren't the primary unit in the exercise and the unit being exercised weren't a cavalry unit.

              As for Cav aren't they supposed to be supposed to be in armoured cars? Were they?
              So although they were there in leu of the PDF cav did they really do the same job?
              I think you might go back and look at the roles and taskings of Cav and see that Armoured vehicles are only tools of the tarde as opposed to the reason for being. We did have an armoured element in 2003 however for 2004 the armour troop was deployed on a Cav Ex in the east.

              2002/03/04.
              You say that was 2003. Nine years later and what has come of it
              2005 and 2006 were corps concentrations and assessments and we came out tops because of the work we had done on the PSOs.

              What became of it is unit that learned it could survive with people holding the right qualifications . The PDF Cav have accommadated those who can attend the courses , but circumstances contrive to undermine the whole experience with the Re Org, Embargo on promotions and recruitments and finally the bks closures but the unit still survives ina highly modified form.

              Truck driving and traffic management, not exactly requiring any great military skill now??
              AD, were they actually being attacked from the air or were they doing what they usually do on an ex, sit in a nissan
              Obviously you've never seen a battalion sized exercise ( convoy of aprrox 50 military vehicles on the road at once) and realised the requirements of it.Drivers and PAS were tasked for their roles alongside PDF counterparts again all did their job.As....for the AA, the Flycatchers and Guns were deployed....and the AC sent down a PC 9 to simulate attacks....

              So all in all it was quite practical.

              so long as they have a PDF armourer,
              In nearly 20 years in the FCA/ RDF the only time I saw or interacted with an armourer on the range was at Command/Brigade/All army competitions. The ammo etc was all done by reservists..I've done it myself.
              Last edited by hptmurphy; 1 October 2012, 22:25.
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Saab View Post
                But Cryos, earlier I did poiint out that some units can do things. These are the ones that I believe should be nurtured and would eventually flourish into something worthwhile.
                This was put down by ropebag and hpmurphy. It is a one size fits all army and how dare anyone say otherwise.
                Just because your unit can tie their shoe laces you shouldn't expect others to do it. Unless of course you give them employment protection and extra pay.

                madmmark of course you can only do what you are tasked to do.
                Thats why Fentons is so full when there is an ex on in the Glen.
                My apologies, this thread has gotten that long that its getting hard to keep track of who said what.

                The issue i always have with the arguments on here is the people who want to have a wide sweeping statement, i commend your ability to identify positives where as others want to steam role the whole thing.

                Employment protection and pay are great, but i dont think these are the topics you hit the military authorities within the first few slides, these are the last two slides in a 40 page proposal you would set out.

                Integration is a dirty word its tainted with the last failed attempt, to a point it worked decades ago why not now ? I think its because nobody sat down and thought about it; Its like in my job, Customers dont come to the company i work for and go "Hey we want to get rid of Windows XP for Windows 7" great lets do this... "By the way we are a company of 100,000 endpoints" it gets slightly more complex here.

                You cant just bull on into it and lash Windows 7 out there, little old mary in cork's Access 95 DB doesnt run on Windows 7 dun dun dun!

                The reserve need's to be taken like this, all branches of the DF need to look at the RDF and identify the issues with bringing the RDF to "Operational Readyness"; Lets look at it in stages, look at the people who have near 100% attendance over the past training years, get unit commanders to write a report on these people in his unit and let them know what they are trained for and if they are worth their salt or not.

                Lets get the people filling in gaps that exist and reduce the overtime, focus in paralell in assessing units to see which ones are "Good" and which ones need some more attention. Its surprising how bad communications can be and surprising how many people in the RDF do not know their entitlements and how the rules apply to them for them.

                I think though Saab some people are set in a certain mindset, this thread could go on another 100 pages and we would be no sooner arriving at any agreement to this; There are people in the Core units that can give more than what their regular peers can, by virtue of working in that industry for a number of years; This is something an army career may not quiet nurture in its "Get it done" attitude.
                Squad look this way, i will give a full and complete demonstration on how to post.
                Type 1-2-3-4 fact check and POST

                Cryos

                Comment


                • just because your unit can tie their shoe laces you shouldn't expect others to do it. Unless of course you give them employment protection and extra pay.
                  Nobody expects to get paid or even extra pay to the work around making their own unit work and especially when there are no PDF cadre there to do the job.

                  Unless of course you give them employment protection
                  How ever if you are detailed to cover that job for which another man can be paid and on certain days of the week can be paid a premium rate ,that job being outside that normally associated with involvement with your own reserve unit, why should that reservist not be entitled to the same rate of pay!

                  The expectation of security of employment should be a basic right to any member of the RDF,but the DF and The government has failed to ratify this as they are terrified of mismanaging reservist and ending up with 'Full Time FCA' as happened times gone by!

                  I'm not sure as what you see as Steam rolling but a little look at the situation as it currently stands will tell you the RDF is in serious trouble and afair share of the blame is historical and lands on the door step of the reserve itself.

                  Very few bought in to integration....they even failed to enforce their own rules from the start !

                  The RDF units that survived the RE Org became ven more inbred and power hungry as authourity was devolved from the PDF and as a result units became more insular and tribal than before with combined units shitting on their new found brethern on a regular basis to trying maintain a status quo.

                  Mean while the Army has stood back and is watching the RDF sort out their major headache, how to get rid of the RDF, by letting it self destruct.

                  Dermot Earley was willing to sacrifice the RDF to retain 3 Brigades, Sean McCann is willing to sacrifice a brigade and the RDF to retain something approaching a credible DF.

                  The PDF do not owe the RDF a living, if the RDF continues on the track of 'Army need us' they had better find something they can do cheaper and more efficiently than the PDF without trying to supply cheap unsecured labour, they will fall and when they pick themselves up from that fall they will find themselves in a very different environment.

                  Its all or nothing, but if you are going to give all, make sure you can do the job as you propose or there will be those waiting in the wings to destroy it totally.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                  Comment


                  • The ammo can be done by anyone the Coy Comdr delegates it to.

                    Unlike having a PDF presence at a shoot being a Southern Bde thing, having an armourer is an all army thing!

                    Comment


                    • because there is no RDF armourer course!?
                      "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                      "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

                      Comment


                      • because there is no RDF armourer course!?
                        Armourer is a technical trade and those qualified did so under the army apprenticeships scheme.Bit more complicated than just a course.

                        having an armourer is an all army thing!
                        If they aren't available,do you stop the shoot?

                        Never came across an issue on the range that couldn't be fixed by just withdrawing the weapon if there wasa a difficulty and sending it to the tiffies to be repaired.

                        Waste of man power having to have a techincal tarde employed on a range where he is very limited to waht he can do.
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                        Comment


                        • There used to be a reqiurement for an armourer on the range. This was dropped about five or six years ago. There was a letter from the ordinance corp to this effect.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sluggie View Post
                            There used to be a reqiurement for an armourer on the range. This was dropped about five or six years ago. There was a letter from the ordinance corp to this effect.
                            It's still in the manual, issued by DDFT !

                            Comment


                            • Cryos, allI can say is I agree. On all counts.

                              Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                              Nobody expects to get paid or even extra pay to the work around making their own unit work and especially when there are no PDF cadre there to do the job.
                              Being cadre is a job. There is pay and a a premium for doing it. It, at present is not the job of any RDF man in my unit.
                              Doing duties is a job. There is pay and a a premium for doing it. It, at present is not the job of any RDF man in my unit.
                              How ever if you are detailed to cover that job for which another man can be paid and on certain days of the week can be paid a premium rate ,that job being outside that normally associated with involvement with your own reserve unit, why should that reservist not be entitled to the same rate of pay!
                              So apart from self interest whats the difference that lets you make an exception to your own rules.


                              The expectation of security of employment should be a basic right to any member of the RDF,
                              Apart from the old drinking clubs the majority of the active RDF members I see are either students or unemployed.
                              So you only need jiob security to perpetuate the old drinking club ethos. And yes I do acknowledge thet there are those few dedicated to the future of the reserve why are not in this catagory.

                              a little look at the situation as it currently stands will tell you the RDF is in serious trouble
                              And making demands isn't going to get us out.

                              The PDF do not owe the RDF a living,
                              I would say the DF owes the RDF nothing. Well maybe a few apointments and a little rank.
                              BUT what can the RDF offer?
                              The minister wants to cut the budget. He is going to do it. There is no doubt of that.
                              At present the RDF is not qualified to do anything more than the odd duty. (And AFAIK there are more duties than just barrack guard)
                              Maybe the fact that you (hptmurphy) have left is the reason why you haven't noticed the RDF is not getting any thing but the basic training.

                              On the subject of courses, earlier it was said that the DF couldn't be running courses just to suit the RDF. I was looking at the courses offered this year on the 5bat notice board. Many were between Easter and Octobre. So there is no need for any special consideration to give summer training.

                              Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                              If they aren't available,do you stop the shoot?.
                              It has happened.
                              Last APWT I was on we had 2 armourers. I don't think they would have been there if they weren't required.

                              And the two were very good. They watched us and were able to tell if the rifle or the shooter was off.
                              Last edited by Saab; 2 October 2012, 14:13.

                              Comment


                              • Your NCO's should have been trained to tell if the rifle or the shooter was off.

                                I spent a number of weekends on the range under PDF instrucftionand in lectures learning how to do just such a thing. It was run as a train the trainers on how to coach shooters. I immediately began to understand the how and why of off-shooting with the rifle in a much more mechanical and meaningful manner. Bn wide the shooting improved greatly as a result of the number of NCO's and 3 star privates who undertook the instruction.

                                It can be done, it SHOULD be part of a follow up or even on the syllabus for, the POTS course.
                                "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
                                "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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