Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Future of the Army Reserve - Discuss

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • then why don't we have any qualified medics on the range
    again this was a requirement in the past.

    It's still in the manual, issued by DDFT
    But then again when was the manual of footdrill revised.....for a great laugh read drivers standing orders sometime
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

    Comment


    • Being cadre is a job
      If the post is vacated its not a job, non replacement policy in place since 2008, soits not a recognised post in units whose cadre have retired.

      Doing duties is a job. There is pay and a a premium for doing it. It, at present is not the job of any RDF man in my unit
      Correct, so if he is required to do it he should be paid for it.

      I
      do acknowledge thet there are those few dedicated to the future of the reserve why are not in this catagory
      Whether in a minority or not they deserve employment protection.

      Maybe the fact that you (hptmurphy) have left is the reason why you haven't noticed the RDF is not getting any thing but the basic training
      I'm quite in touch with whats going on in unit and know the difficulties,there are still courses being run.

      It has happened.
      Last APWT I was on we had 2 armourers. I don't think they would have been there if they weren't required
      .

      As I said thats a waste, theres nothing that bad can happen on a range witha weapon where it needs to be returned to firing capability that can't be done when returned to a workshop.

      They watched us and were able to tell if the rifle or the shooter was off
      .

      Any competent NCO with some shooting experience ...even an RDF man.. could have done that...for Free!!!!

      At present the RDF is not qualified to do anything more than the odd duty
      hands up all the gunners, medics, signallers, drivers..apparently saab thinks your only qualification is for duties!...at cut price!
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

      Comment


      • As someone said armourer training is a 3/4 year apprenticeship.

        Hptmurphy, you got it in 1 no armourer no shoot.

        Every soldier is supposed to be able to adjust the sights, the armourer is there to check serviceability of weapons.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          No. There is a specific range managers course that must be carried out and it is not limited to Officers. Were a couple of sergeants in Clonmel who were such qualified. Unless its changed since 2009...
          A Cadre Sgt in my former unit was Range Manager qualified in the early to to mid nineties
          The only caveat to this was that the course was only offered to Sgts or above

          Originally posted by koppiteal View Post
          I been to a range practice where the only PDF personell was the armourer. So it can be done.
          Yep, agreed, normally our Cadre NCO (and on occasion, the officer also) is present to make sure all goes OK with the ammo admin
          But going back donkeys ages, we have always had an armourer present on our APWTs

          Originally posted by SwiftandSure
          I don't think you need an armourer on the range. Every soldier should be trained to sight and clear his own weapon. If the weapon malfunctions, clear it and hand back into the armoury to be repaired in slow time, there's little else that'll be done on the range with a broken rifle....

          If having an armourer is a H&S issue, then why don't we have any qualified medics on the range? Because if a rifle were to blow up in my face on the range, I'd rather I had a qualified medic there, than some 'Captain Hindsight' armourer explaining to me why the rifle malfunctioned in the first place.
          Agreed, but the armourer is there to make sure the weapon doesn't get to the point where it will blow up in your face when you pull the trigger

          Originally posted by Sluggie View Post
          There used to be a reqiurement for an armourer on the range. This was dropped about five or six years ago. There was a letter from the ordinance corp to this effect.
          News to me - as I said, more recently than 5-6 years ago, we have had an armourer present on our shoots....

          Originally posted by morpheus View Post
          Your NCO's should have been trained to tell if the rifle or the shooter was off.

          I spent a number of weekends on the range under PDF instrucftionand in lectures learning how to do just such a thing. It was run as a train the trainers on how to coach shooters. I immediately began to understand the how and why of off-shooting with the rifle in a much more mechanical and meaningful manner. Bn wide the shooting improved greatly as a result of the number of NCO's and 3 star privates who undertook the instruction.

          It can be done, it SHOULD be part of a follow up or even on the syllabus for, the POTS course.
          Agreed, but again, HOW can the rifle sight be adjusted ? There seems to be a huge shortage of sight adjustment keys, considering that every rifle shipped with a kit
          containing one ! I've seen armourers present with what resembles a pipe blank off, with the necessary pins brazed onto it, for sight adjustment
          Word has it that Ord in the Curragh divvied up a bunch of these years ago, to overcome the sight key shortage issue....

          Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          But then again when was the manual of footdrill revised.....for a great laugh read drivers standing orders sometime
          Which Drivers Standing Orders are you referring to, Murph ? It was revised on 1st April 2012 (which may be ironic in itself, granted)

          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          Every soldier is supposed to be able to adjust the sights, the armourer is there to check serviceability of weapons.
          As I said above - sight adjustment keys anyone ?
          "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by morpheus View Post
            Your NCO's should have been trained to tell if the rifle or the shooter was off.
            I am not saying otherwise. I am just saying they were far superior in their ability than anyone else there that day.

            Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
            If the post is vacated its not a job, non replacement policy in place since 2008,
            So if the powers that be decide that everyone should go home at 4.30 on a friday and the RDF should take over the bks then that would be ok?

            so if he is required to do it he should be paid for it.
            So its a job if it is required but a post if its not. Now that is confusing.

            Whether in a minority or not they deserve employment protection.
            Or they deserve to be told to look after their job and let those that can contribute do so.
            Just like so many other vol orgs.

            there are still courses being run.
            Basic though.

            theres nothing .........that can't be done when returned to a workshop.
            According to the armourer on the range the last time a weapon is zeroed to the firer. This is something best done by the armourer. After initial zeroing the soldier should be able to take care of their weapon. Problem with the RDF is that its not a matter of 1 man 1 weapon so weapons are contineously being zeroed. Something that does not happen in the PDF.
            So how exactly can they do this in the armoury?


            hands up all the gunners, medics, signallers, drivers..apparently saab thinks your only qualification is for duties!...at cut price!
            Well I don't really know what more to the daily running gunners can provide but medics, signallers, drivers can do duties in their role.
            Someone mans MAPs at the weekend, someone mans the comcen, someone drives the vehicles. I bet there is even a quartermaster or fuelman sitting in every bks to man the fuel pump too. Maybe the gunners or the PAs could do that one. But they are all duties.
            All have to be done.
            And amazingly when the RDF CIS, TPTCOY and MEDCOY are out on an ex thats what we see them do for free. Even though you also see PDF drivers, medics and sigs personnel who are also there and getting paid.
            So how do you reconcile that one?
            Those undignafied drivers that are out with trucks ferrying us about when a PDF driver could be detailed and paid to do it.
            You can't have it both ways.
            It can't be ok to do one job but not the other!!!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DeV View Post

              Hptmurphy, you got it in 1 no armourer no shoot.
              Then our cadre are armourers!
              Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

              Comment


              • In my coy we all have personal weapons assigned to us. Its up to us to keep them clean ect.

                Comment


                • Generally true in mine too. It was just what the armourer said.

                  Comment


                  • Which Drivers Standing Orders are you referring to, Murph
                    the ine that referes to drivers not wearing hobnail boots!

                    There seems to be a huge shortage of sight adjustment keys, considering that every rifle shipped with a kit
                    containing on
                    I think it was more a Q issue along with cleaning kits, they were removed to a central location and kept from the masses in case we might use one.

                    If an armourer laid his hands on the sights of a rifle I was zeroing,I'd break them, zeroing is down to the individual, and each soldier should be able to do his own without an armourer....and should have a key.

                    am just saying they were far superior in their ability than anyone else there that day.
                    really paint a great picture of your unit if not one could coach a firer!
                    Agreed, but the armourer is there to make sure the weapon doesn't get to the point where it will blow up in your face when you pull the trigger
                    Please don't tell me they bore check every rifle every time before its fired.........range practises could take days.the only unknown in the weapon is ammunition and Ordnance which is the proper name for tiffies or armourers can't do anything about that.

                    Yes I've seen Ordnance on heavy weapons or explosive ammo shoots to check the weapons and ammo....but small arms.....was given up in the south years ago as Sluggie says...or maybe we are that little bit more trusted with weapons

                    Hptmurphy, you got it in 1 no armourer no shoot
                    Must be location specific as I've done alot of shooting over the years as the books will show....and at unit shoots of small arms..nada!

                    I had a personel weapon for eight years, the only time an armourer got a look as at shooting competitions. I zeroed it !

                    So if the powers that be decide that everyone should go home at 4.30 on a friday and the RDF should take over the bks then that would be ok?
                    Not should....but might be in a position to do so if asked.
                    So its a job if it is required but a post if its not. Now that is confusing.

                    Why dosen't that suprise me. Simple.. Every job in the Df is a post that requires filling by some one and is recognised, hence if someone goes overseas the 'post' is filled by an acting rank.

                    there are 'posts' ie Platoon Sergeant, x platoon , y coy z bn, if the person retires and is not filled that post is vacant, while the work maybe done by someone else, the actual post and its pay go unfilled.

                    With the promotion / recruitment embargo posts may not be filled, or promotions made to fill the post. In the case of RDF cadre the posts left by retiring cadre remain unfilled. If the post is not filled it is written off and the post is removed from the strenght of the unit.

                    I lose a staff member I don't get replacement and his non payment of wages , allowances is seen as a saving by the HSE, DF is the same!

                    Cdare staff not being replaced is an easy one as there are two savings to be made (a) the wage and (b) the allowance, and it then falls to the unit commander to find a replacement. In the case of an RDF unit the only replacement available is an RDF man. Some one had the foresight to run an oderly room course some years back.. guess what its put up time for the guys who did it!

                    According to the armourer on the range the last time a weapon is zeroed to the firer. This is something best done by the armourer
                    Bullshit.

                    I can't zero a weapon for anyone else no more than anyone else can for me! I gave enough time zeroing weapons every year for 8/9 years of competition to know this as anyone who takes their shooting seriously knows.

                    Someone mans MAPs at the weekend, someone mans the comcen, someone drives the vehicles. I bet there is even a quartermaster or fuelman sitting in every bks to man the fuel pump too. Maybe the gunners or the PAs could do that one. But they are all duties.
                    All have to be done.
                    And amazingly when the RDF CIS, TPTCOY and MEDCOY are out on an ex thats what we see them do for free. Even though you also see PDF drivers, medics and sigs personnel who are also there and getting paid.
                    So how do you reconcile that one?
                    Those undignafied drivers that are out with trucks ferrying us about when a PDF driver could be detailed and paid to do it.
                    You can't have it both ways.
                    It can't be ok to do one job but not the other
                    finally struck me that you have no clue of what reservist do, will do, can do, should do, outside of you own unit.......

                    Or they deserve to be told to look after their job and let those that can contribute do so
                    I'm so glad you made that point as it really claified what the reserve is all about to you, You'll do what you want and fcuk the consequences for anyone who might have to continue in your place when you got pissed off.

                    Not a thought for the guy beside you....recruits must have been brilliant.
                    Last edited by hptmurphy; 2 October 2012, 18:35.
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                    Comment


                    • New DSOs were issued about 2 years ago.

                      All weapons in stores are checked annually by an armoured in stores.

                      There are duty PAs, duty driver etc

                      Comment


                      • Just with reference to the issues raised a page or two back about different working hours and conflicting schedules.

                        It wouldn't bring down the apocalypse to utilise an online workflow system. i.e. RDF pers put in reqs etc into a queue in their own time. PDF pers processing all admin during their office hours process said workitems and leave reply on system for reservist to respond/act etc.

                        Time differences just aren't the issue they were a decade or two ago.

                        In terms of conflicting interests, the notion of the PDF unit member putting their neck on the line to get kit for the Reserve - it's always got to come down to this for a working worthwhile reserve (barring the unforeseen arrival of Fantasion paratroopers), the PDF is a service provider and their sole client is the state.

                        The RDF is also a service provider. Its client is the PDF.

                        Reserve elements should be used to enhance both the day to day service provision and the contingency capabilities of the Defence Forces as whole.

                        Whether this means utilising military or externally obtained skills in support of the Defence forces or (preferably) both it will require an acknowledgement that we are all on the same side.

                        So the PDF bloke trying to obtain kit for the reserve element should be doing it as and asking it from someone who knows that he's working for his own side.

                        Given time and trust maybe RDF pers can start doing some lowly routine tasks on an occasional basis to free up PDF personel or even just get them a weekend off.

                        Crazy I know.
                        "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

                        Comment


                        • There are duty PAs, duty driver etc
                          Not the issue, the perception being that Reservists regardless of specialist skills acquired over time were only useful for duties.

                          Those undignafied drivers that are out with trucks ferrying us about when a PDF driver could be detailed and paid to do it
                          The poster implied that their specialist skills shouldn't be utilized......

                          How did the special olympics happen without reservist drivers?

                          Does he expect us to employ PDF drivers to drive RDF qualified drivers to ranges ,FTT etc. just because they draw tech pay.

                          At this point ignorance is no longer an excuse.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                          Comment


                          • For a very long time in 20 bn there were no fca drivers, it was all pdf. A shoot cannot proceed without armourer.
                            "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                            "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                              really paint a great picture of your unit if not one could coach a firer!
                              Oh get over yourself. The fact that these two individuals were better than even the cadre, one of which is was an ex ranger and another has on a number of times been in the all army shoot is just a fact. They were good at what they did. THey had experience and the ability to share that experience. They were doing what we have been crying out for the PDF to do, namely take an interest and share their tallent.
                              It says nothing about the unit.


                              .........................Cdare staff not being replaced is an easy one as there are two savings to be made (a) the wage and (b) the allowance, and it then falls to the unit commander to find a replacement. In the case of an RDF unit the only replacement available is an RDF man. Some one had the foresight to run an oderly room course some years back.. guess what its put up time for the guys who did it!
                              A lot of words that really say nothing.
                              When it suits you its ok for an RDF man to do a PDF mans job.

                              Bullshit.
                              Your opinion. BUt what makes you the expert? Ever been an armourer?

                              finally struck me that you have no clue of what reservist do,
                              not sure what you mean by this.
                              Are you saying that drivers don't drive, CIS radio ops don'd operate comcens and medics are incapable of doing what medics do?

                              I'm so glad you made that point as it really claified what the reserve is all about to you.
                              Again, your opinion.
                              So I don't want it to continue being the old farts drinking club.
                              If it is part of an infantry mans job to do a barrack duty once every 2 months then yes I am prepared to do so.
                              Funnlly enouigh I have never seen a PDF guard in the Glen or Kilworth. Its always been done by the RDF for free.
                              But thats ok as it suits us.
                              Well as you said the RDF is in trouble. Bleeting on with the salme old crap of we can't do x,y and z and we wont do a,b,c will have to stop if things are to move forward.
                              At some point the DF will have to take stock.
                              They will have to say what the RDF can be used for and then make use of them.
                              IF you, I are anyone else can't do what they are tasked to do then they have no business being there.
                              To me the RDF is about commitment. You simply shouldn't be inolved or take on a job if you cannot commit to doing it!!!

                              You on the other hand are only willing to commit as long as you get what you want.
                              you have clearly stated that.
                              And now you say that I am all about me.

                              the perception being that Reservists regardless of specialist skills acquired over time were only useful for duties.
                              Or the reality that there is not much else that they can do bar train for the sake of training.
                              As someone else said there comes a point when doing another PIA in the Glen is pointless.

                              How did the special olympics happen without reservist drivers?
                              I would say the 1500 civvi pool drivers and the 500 civvi coach drivers might of had something to do with that too.
                              How many RDF drivers were there?
                              What other jobs did the RDF do, oh yes static security wasn't it.
                              Gosh how similar to barrcak guard.
                              And If I remember correctly there was ample PDF drivers. So another case of where you have shown that it was ok for RDF pers to come up from the country and work for less than the PDF that should have been doing the job.
                              All those PDF drivers that lost out on the subsistance that the RDF don't get.

                              Does he expect us to employ PDF drivers to drive RDF qualified drivers to ranges ,FTT etc. just because they draw tech pay.
                              You tell me. RDF drivers driving for free when there is a PDF driver employed to drive loosing out on the chance to earn.
                              You said earlier that a situation like that was inconcievable and totally wrong!!!


                              Originally posted by Come-quickly
                              It wouldn't bring down the apocalypse to utilise an online workflow system. i.e. RDF pers put in reqs etc into a queue in their own time. PDF pers processing all admin during their office hours process said workitems and leave reply on system for reservist to respond/act etc.
                              This requires change.
                              But according to murphy that can opnly be done by paying reservists and putting in employment protection.

                              Reserve elements should be used to enhance both the day to day service provision and the contingency capabilities of the Defence Forces as whole.
                              Totally agree.

                              Given time and trust maybe RDF pers can start doing some lowly routine tasks on an occasional basis to free up PDF personel or even just get them a weekend off.
                              That was my original arguement.

                              Comment


                              • I got bored of the circular argument here about 5 pages ago. Has any new information been slipped in regarding the VFM?


                                Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X